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For all you KDF Haters.

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  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    Simply ragethreads like any rage thread that any KDf or fed player throws out on the forums for what ever rage-moment they are having at the time.

    Roach I'm asking you directly what would be an acceptable ratio that is not 1:1, which you have now stated you are not asking for.

    bitemepwe wrote: »
    Completion of the faction so a KDF player can start at level 1 and progress to endgame.

    Considering I just showed you that the KDF has about half the missions available that Feds do - do you think something like this would work?

    • KDF characters can be created at L1
    • KDF Get an additional 10 low level missions that grant enough XP to bring the character from L1 to L20. (So about 2 levels per mission).

    That would now bring the ratio to 60% / 40%.

    Which is getting closer to 1:1, the ratio you've stated you are not in fact looking for.
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    Fed players ask for endgame ships all the time on the forums. Ships that they enjoy from the IP and wish to see ingame. Why would thier asking be more important and therefore allowed over a KDF player asking for the same?

    I don't have a problem with KDF players asking for new ships. There are several ships I would love to see, like a VA Qin Raptor and VA Vorcha.

    That?s not what I?m asking.

    I?m asking what ratio you think is acceptable, and why rage threads that you seem happy to participate in about Feds getting a new VA ship exist if in fact people are not looking for 1:1 equivalency.

    Approximately 40% of all Endgame ships in the game are for a faction that makes up about 15% of the entire game?s population.

    So what ratio is in fact acceptable, if you are not looking for 1:1?

    Would 1 new KDF ship for every 2 Fed ships be about right?




    bitemepwe wrote: »
    Subtract these....


    I don't believe I included many, or even any, of what you posted above.

    I took my numbers from here:

    http://www.stowiki.org/Mission
  • quiscustodietquiscustodiet Member Posts: 350
    edited June 2012
    If we roll all of the Ody and Bortas ships and count them as "1" (Including Tac, Sci, Ops and Free Versions) & exclude lock-box ships (which are faction neutral).

    We get

    FED RA & VA Ships = 17
    KDF RA & VA Ships = 11


    For a total of 28 ships, and roughly 40% of those ships are KDF ships.

    And if we don't count all the Odysseys and Bortases as 1 and we don't exclude the neutral Ships, we get:
    FED: 23
    KDF: 17
    Or a 57.5%/42.5% split, or a 1.35:1 ratio.


    Note: I'm not entering any argument, I just like numbers.
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    And if we don't count all the Odysseys and Bortases as 1 and we don't exclude the neutral Ships, we get:
    FED: 23
    KDF: 17
    Or a 57.5%/42.5% split, or a 1.35:1 ratio.


    Note: I'm not entering any argument, I just like numbers.


    Your numbers are absolutely correct.

    I left them out, as I felt it was unfair to the KDF to count those ships and would have been disingenuous on my part (just my reasoning, for anyone who cares - which is most likely no one. ;))
  • recksracerrecksracer Member Posts: 128 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    And if we don't count all the Odysseys and Bortases as 1 and we don't exclude the neutral Ships, we get:
    FED: 23
    KDF: 17
    Or a 57.5%/42.5% split, or a 1.35:1 ratio.


    Note: I'm not entering any argument, I just like numbers.

    The problem IMO isn't the lack of quality ships, I've been very pleased with the KDF ships as a whole.

    The main issues that I see are the lack of things to do in general on the KDF side and the whole "youre 12%-18% of the player base so suck it" attitude the pretty much overshadows everything they do as a dev team.

    Maybe they should consider what percentage of the PVP player base is klingon and what effect systematically crapping on us will have long term for the health of pvp and the game in general.
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Roach I'm asking you directly what would be an acceptable ratio that is not 1:1, which you have now stated you are not asking for.
    I have said specifically 20-25 missions to fill the lower levels of 1-20, so figure whatever ratio that is.
    1 to 1.05 for each low level that is missing in the KDF progression?
    Not a huge undertaking at all, especially if they are only going to do one once in a blue moon to the faction is complete.
    SO whats the issue? 1-2 KDF specific missions a year too much a drain on fed gameplay resources?
    Even if they could do 1-2 a year the faction would not be complete until 10 years from now? Too fast for you?
    Considering I just showed you that the KDF has about half the missions available that Feds do - do you think something like this would work?
    You showed you think the KDf has roughly less than half the missions the feds do.
    I showed you that some should not count as they are not missions per se as they have no location, no effort is required for completion as they consist of die X or kill X, they are just XP fillers, or they just require to talk to a NPC to complete.
    Remove them from your ratio equation and see how mnay we actually have that provide gameplay.

    If you take away all the missions you list as superflorius and the one we KDF consider as well, you end up with

    feds: Tour of Duty 6 promotion missions - that shouldn't count (-6)
    KDF: Tour and Promotions 14 missions with 5 promotions that shouldn't count 9 (-5)

    feds: Storyline 10 missions 10
    KDF: Federation War 4 missions 4

    feds: Defend 10 missions 10
    KDF: the Fek'lhri return 4 missions 4

    feds: Exploration 13 missions 13
    KDF: Romulan Mystery 1 mission 1

    feds: Klingon War 27 missions 27
    KDF: the Undine Advance 5 missions - 4 shouldn't count as they are identical to feds 1 (-4)

    feds: Patrol missions 10 missions
    KDF: Defend 8 missions

    feds: Fleet actions 5 missions - 1 should not count as they are identical to KDF missions 4 (-1)
    KDF: Exploration 14 missions 14

    feds: Romulan Mystery 18 missions 18
    KDF: Assualt 3 missions 3

    feds: Patrol 10 missions 10
    KDF: Assingments with no location 23 missions - 9 should not count as they require no effort 14 (-9)

    feds: Fleet Action 2 missions 2 - 2 that do not count becuase the KDf has same missions -2
    KDF: Fleet Actions 5 missions 5 - 3 that mimic the feds 2 (-3)

    feds: Cardassian Struggle 15 missions 15
    KDF: Special Task Force (crossfaction teaming disqualifires these missions as faction specific)

    feds: Patrol 10 missions 10
    KDF: Breen (discounted since a FE)

    feds: Fleet Actions 1 mission 1
    KDF: Deferi Daily (discounted)

    feds: The Borg Collective 6 missions 6
    KDF: Deferi patrol (discounted )

    feds: Undine advance 4 missions (discounted)
    KDF: Nuetral zone (discounted)

    feds: Breen invasion (discounted)
    KDF: Daily (discounted)

    feds: Assingment with no location 12 missions 12
    KDF: Cloaked intentions (discounted)

    feds: Diplomatic missions 13 missions 13
    KDF: the 2800 (discounted)

    and thats it as everything that comes fedside is the same as KDF side iether a FE or a agnostic daily mission.
    So thats 171 total fed missions minus 9 for being discounted for a total of 162 playible missions.
    So thats 81 KDF missions minus 21 for being discounted for a total of 60 playible missions.

    159/60 is a ratio of 2.65:1 in my book, but then again math is my weak point.

    So if my and those in the KDf asking for 20-25 missions to complete our faction is a burden, wow - I'm sorry for being greedy by comparison to what the feds have already discounting what they may continue to recieve.
    I didn't realize it was such a burden on you all and the Devs for us to ask for this, not even demanding it now, but being willing to wait how ever long it takes for the Devs to get around to it.

    I?m asking what ratio you think is acceptable, and why rage threads that you seem happy to participate in about Feds getting a new VA ship exist if in fact people are not looking for 1:1 equivalency.
    rage threads are rage threads and I do not think they exist becuase fans are looking for a ratio parity. They exist becuase a fan dislikes a percived advantage of the other factions new ship/BOff/DOff/etc or think faction A or B is getting pandered too, or any number of complaints that the player feels is relevant.
    Your trying to impose a ratio parity where its not a factor in my opinon, nor have I mentioned that we NEED new KDF ships to be in parity with the feds.


    I don't believe I included many, or even any, of what you posted above.

    I took my numbers from here:

    http://www.stowiki.org/Mission
    Which where I took my info from about those missions that should be excluded from the total count becuase they are infact not missions but more likened to completing an accolade with Die X times, Kill X times.

    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies. ~kalecto
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • erraberrab Member Posts: 1,434 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    I took a look at the above provide link to and came up with faction specific missions and I excluded any report to and dual faction mission content and came up with the following numbers:

    Fed Mission Content total = 47

    KDF Mission Content total = 9

    I can?t speak for all KDF players but I?d be a lot happier if the faction specific mission numbers looked more like this:

    Fed 47

    KDF 27-30


    The 47 to 9 is just a horrible ratio.

    IMO the KDF should have at least 50% of the faction specific mission content that the Federation Faction has.

    You can always try to argue that Featured Episodes are open to both factions but the reality is that those are Federation tailored missions that are open to the KDF and have no KDF feel or perspective to them at all.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • voyagerfan9751voyagerfan9751 Member Posts: 1,120 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    The Following Missions are Fed Only. In other words they are a Fed Focused storyline that you can only get by rolling a fed Toon.

    Stranded in Space
    Diplomatic Orders
    Hide and Seek
    Stop the Signal
    Researcher Rescue
    The Kuv'Magh
    War is Good for Business
    Treasure Trading Station
    Secret Orders
    Task Force Hippocrates
    The Ultimate Klingon
    The Doomsday Device
    City on the Edge of Never
    Past Imperfect
    Heading Out
    Under the Cover of Night
    Minefield
    Divide et Impera
    Saturday's Child
    Preemptive Strike
    Hunting the Hunters
    Project Nightingale
    By Any Means
    Ground Zero
    Ghost Ship
    Friend of My Enemy
    Taris
    Trapped
    S'harien's Sword
    Venture into Deep Space
    Badlands
    Suspect
    War Games
    Shutdown
    Rapier
    Forging Bonds
    The Long Night
    The Tribble with Klingons
    Tear of the Prophets
    Crack in the Mirror
    The New Link
    Seeds of Dissent
    The Other Side
    Cage of Fire
    Collateral Damage
    Asset Recovery
    State of Q

    That is a total of 47 missions that you can only get playing a Fed. Now, I will concede your point on Heading Out and Venture into Deep Space. You will Notice I didn't put the other two in, Darkness before Dawn was a overlook on my part as it is connected with the Romulan FE. Report to Gamma Orionis was not, Since you get the same mission regardless on if you roll a Fed or Klingon toon. That Still leaves you with 45 Missions that You can only get as a Fed, They develop the federation and give you a sense of what they are about and how they fit into the Larger Star Trek Online World.


    Klingons by comparison have the Following Missions.

    Bringing Down the House
    The House Always Wins
    Second Star to the Right, and Straight on 'Til Morning
    Keep your Enemies Closer
    Blood of the Empire
    Destiny
    Afterlife
    Gates of Gre'thor
    Alpha

    For a whopping total of 9. Only nine missions which can be blown through in a weekend.


    The Problem is you are focusing on ratios. Well, the Klingons are not, and that is where you are getting a "but you say not this yet you still complain". Do we want 45:45 (which is your 1:1 ratio). No. But we want something close enough to the 45 number that 1) allows for the Klingon Empire to Start from the Beginning at Level 1. And 2) is close enough to The number of Fed Missions (again 45) to not be laughably obvious who is the "Favored Child".

    Ships are much the same way. Obviously making Klingon ship is harder then With the feds. Even if you don't go totally canon (of which there are only 5), The number of ships to look off of is not much. But here is the thing. The Federation players ask for a Carrier, They get the Atrox, They want a t5 Akira, They get it. The Klingon's ask for ANYTHING. Just another ship to balance the two and lets be honest, who knows how many others down the pipeline, and they are called whiners.

    That is the whole Ship vs Ship thing. Feds will get what they want. It is easier to do, and truthfully makes sense from a business model perspective. But If you are going to rain new shinies on your Feds like water. Can't you at least send a little love to the KDF side.
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    recksracer wrote: »
    The main issues that I see are the lack of things to do in general on the KDF side and the whole "youre 12%-18% of the player base so suck it"

    Out of curiosity, what do Feds have at Endgame that the KDF does not?

    Do you think people are going back and running lowbie missions?

    Most of my friends actually prefer KDF side specifically because they hate the first 20 levels Fed side, and when they do roll Feds they generally use Mirror events to blow past everything to L20-30 and then do patrols and such the rest of the way.

    I'm not telling anyone to suck it, I don't care if the KDF gets new missions - that would be great.

    I think claiming you don't want 1:1 ratio, and then Roach stating he wants to see 25 new missions is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

    NO ONE is going to be getting 10 new missions, much less 25 new missions anytime in the foreseeable future. This game is now about the endgame.


    recksracer wrote: »
    Maybe they should consider what percentage of the PVP player base is klingon and what effect systematically crapping on us will have long term for the health of pvp and the game in general.

    PvP is the part of the game Gozer went on record stating that if they removed it from the game completely that it would not have a noticeable or significant effect on the daily, weekly or monthly activity of this games player base.


    bitemepwe wrote: »
    You showed you think the KDf has roughly less than half the missions the feds do.
    I showed you that some should not count as they are not missions per se as they have no location, no effort is required for completion as they consist of die X or kill X, they are just XP fillers, or they just require to talk to a NPC to complete.


    Ok, please let me know which of these fits what you are saying.

    The Federation War
    ?Bringing Down the House? ? ?The House Always Wins? ? ?Second Star to the Right, Straight on 'til Morning? ? ?Keep Your Enemies Closer? ? ?Skirmish? ? ?Spin the Wheel? ? ?What Lies Beneath? ? ?Everything Old is New? ? ?Night of the Comet?

    The Fek'Ihri Return ?Blood of the Empire? ? ?Destiny? ? ?Afterlife? ? ?The Gates of Gre'thor?

    The Romulan Mystery
    ?Alpha? ? ?The Vault? ? ?Mine Enemy? ? ?Frozen? ? ?Coliseum? ? ?Cutting the Cord? ? ?Darkness Before the Dawn?

    Dominion Domination ?Second Wave? ? ?Of Bajor? ? ?Operation Gamma? ? ?Facility 4028? ? ?Boldly They Rode?

    The Breen Invasion ?Cold Call? ? ?Out in the Cold? ? ?Cold Comfort? ? ?Cold Case? ? ?Cold Storage?

    The Undine Advance
    ?Report to Gamma Orionis? ? ?Assimilation? ? ?The Return? ? ?Fluid Dynamics? ? ?A Light in the Dark?


    (sorry about the formatting, copy and paste from STO wiki doesn't work very well).


    bitemepwe wrote: »
    I can?t speak for all KDF players but I?d be a lot happier if the faction specific mission numbers looked more like this:

    Fed 47

    KDF 27-30

    Good luck with that.

    Good luck with 15% or less (12%?) of the playerbase getting nearly 40% of all mission content in a F2P game where the playerbase has been told low level content is on hold for everyone.


    And for the record you are saying you don't expect 1:1, but you do in fact expect nearly 1:1?
  • recksracerrecksracer Member Posts: 128 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    stuff

    What doesn't the fed side have would be a better question..

    More ships, missions, rewards, uniforms, faction specific locations, the ability to use all character slots for fed, faction based event missions and too many other things to bother listing.

    If they don't want to balance the factions somewhat, they shouldnt even have a second faction.
  • hawks3052hawks3052 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    The big problem is Cryptic didn't know what big IP they bought when they took pver STO in the first place. The end result we are playing today. Cryptic was and will never be the right company for a Star Trek MMO. It would have been better if CBS would have approached one big company with decent ressources.

    Cryptics hope was to make a decent Fed experience and add the KDF with the failed 45th day patch. That promise was never fullfilled, every time they had one excuse or another.
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Out of curiosity, what do Feds have at Endgame that the KDF does not?
    Endgame missions are not relevant to our complaint and wanting a complete faction. Especially since the bulk of endgame missions are agnostic and can be run by iether faction.
    Though the bulk of the playerbase is at endgame which is why the Devs are focusing on endgame at this time and also why we KDf are not demanding they stop doing so.
    Do you think people are going back and running lowbie missions?
    I know I would roll more ALTs for gameplay if I had enjoyable stories to run through just as a ran teh 9 KDF missions over and over ad nausieum until I got burnt waiting for more story to arrive in the last two years.
    Most of my friends actually prefer KDF side specifically because they hate the first 20 levels Fed side, and when they do roll Feds they generally use Mirror events to blow past everything to L20-30 and then do patrols and such the rest of the way.
    Which is fine if thats the options they choose after reaching a " too much grinding of teh same old stories" mentality.
    The KDF wishes a complet efaction so we can at least have the option to start from level 1 and work up to the "too much Grind of the same old stories" mentality on some new stories that complete our factional experience.
    I think claiming you don't want 1:1 ratio, and then Roach stating he wants to see 25 new missions is just setting yourself up for disappointment.
    we are already disapointed, what would change?

    NO ONE is going to be getting 10 new missions, much less 25 new missions anytime in the foreseeable future. This game is now about the endgame.
    Which is fine. How many times do we need to say we know they are focused strictly on endgame at this time? How many times must we say we are not demanding the situation change immediatly and they begin work on the KDF in exclusion to anything else?

    If we are going to be disapointed then let us be disapointed. It'll be on the heads of the Devs if that is to be what happens.
    Stop trying to change our desires for a complete faction or our talking about it in our section of the forums. Us doing iether of those has no effect on fed gameplay what so ever.

    And for the record you are saying you don't expect 1:1, but you do in fact expect nearly 1:1?

    No I don't. But you keep trying to say so. Its more like 2.65 fed to our 1 KDF.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    No I don't. But you keep trying to say so. Its more like 2.65 fed to our 1 KDF.

    You just asked for 25 more missions up thread.

    Are you just pretending to ignore the ratio then, or is it you just cant answer the question?


    I'm sorry Roach, I keep coming back to these threads to discuss this with you but it feels so futile when you do things like this in the conversation where on one hand state you're not asking for 1:1, or near 1:1, content equivalency and on the other ask for 25 low level missions - and then pretend like the two of these things have absolutely nothing to do with each other.


    That's just basic math, and I really can't be bothered working it out for you again, since you're just going to ignore it and continue to grind your axe til there is nothing left to grind anyway.
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    You just asked for 25 more missions up thread.

    Are you just pretending to ignore the ratio then, or is it you just cant answer the question?


    I'm ignoring nothing and already answered the question in my previuos postings.

    Here and excerpt though,
    and thats it as everything that comes fedside is the same as KDF side iether a FE or a agnostic daily mission.
    So thats 171 total fed missions minus 12 for being discounted for a total of 159 playible missions.
    So thats 81 KDF missions minus 21 for being discounted for a total of 60 playible missions.

    159/60 is a ratio of 2.65:1 in my book, but then again math is my weak point.


    if we added 20 more missions, completed the faction then it would still only be a ratio of fed/KDF, 1.98 to 1. Hardly a huge thing for us to want to complete the faction and hardly a daunting task since we are not asking they do it now but over a long period of time as they see fit.

    But keep on saying I'm ignoring things, not seeing things or what ever you wish.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • majesticmsfcmajesticmsfc Member Posts: 1,401 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    errab wrote: »
    You can always try to argue that Featured Episodes are open to both factions but the reality is that those are Federation tailored missions that are open to the KDF and have no KDF feel or perspective to them at all.

    Yeah no one in their right mind could say the Featured Series Missions are Klingon Missions, they make no sense to the feel of playing a Klingon Character.
    The Following Missions are Fed Only. In other words they are a Fed Focused storyline that you can only get by rolling a fed Toon.

    Stranded in Space
    Diplomatic Orders
    Hide and Seek
    Stop the Signal
    Researcher Rescue
    The Kuv'Magh
    War is Good for Business
    Treasure Trading Station
    Secret Orders
    Task Force Hippocrates
    The Ultimate Klingon
    The Doomsday Device
    City on the Edge of Never
    Past Imperfect
    Heading Out
    Under the Cover of Night
    Minefield
    Divide et Impera
    Saturday's Child
    Preemptive Strike
    Hunting the Hunters
    Project Nightingale
    By Any Means
    Ground Zero
    Ghost Ship
    Friend of My Enemy
    Taris
    Trapped
    S'harien's Sword
    Venture into Deep Space
    Badlands
    Suspect
    War Games
    Shutdown
    Rapier
    Forging Bonds
    The Long Night
    The Tribble with Klingons
    Tear of the Prophets
    Crack in the Mirror
    The New Link
    Seeds of Dissent
    The Other Side
    Cage of Fire
    Collateral Damage
    Asset Recovery
    State of Q

    That is a total of 47 missions that you can only get playing a Fed. Now, I will concede your point on Heading Out and Venture into Deep Space. You will Notice I didn't put the other two in, Darkness before Dawn was a overlook on my part as it is connected with the Romulan FE. Report to Gamma Orionis was not, Since you get the same mission regardless on if you roll a Fed or Klingon toon. That Still leaves you with 45 Missions that You can only get as a Fed, They develop the federation and give you a sense of what they are about and how they fit into the Larger Star Trek Online World.


    Klingons by comparison have the Following Missions.

    Bringing Down the House
    The House Always Wins
    Second Star to the Right, and Straight on 'Til Morning
    Keep your Enemies Closer
    Blood of the Empire
    Destiny
    Afterlife
    Gates of Gre'thor
    Alpha

    For a whopping total of 9. Only nine missions which can be blown through in a weekend.

    When it's listed like that it's more obvious how poorly they have done the game and how one sided they are. Can get ones blood boiling at times.

    Ships are much the same way. Obviously making Klingon ship is harder then With the feds. Even if you don't go totally canon (of which there are only 5), The number of ships to look off of is not much. But here is the thing. The Federation players ask for a Carrier, They get the Atrox, They want a t5 Akira, They get it. The Klingon's ask for ANYTHING. Just another ship to balance the two and lets be honest, who knows how many others down the pipeline, and they are called whiners.

    That is the whole Ship vs Ship thing. Feds will get what they want. It is easier to do, and truthfully makes sense from a business model perspective. But If you are going to rain new shinies on your Feds like water. Can't you at least send a little love to the KDF side.

    Indeed, we are whiners yet all our Federation Fan Brothers and Sisters forget about all the complaining threads when they do get a new ship. You'll never make a Federation Fan Boy happy unless he has a god ship that does everything. Thankfully a good amount of Federation Players aren't like that but the complaints about this ship is wrong and that ship doesn't have this is never ending.
    hawks3052 wrote: »
    The big problem is Cryptic didn't know what big IP they bought when they took pver STO in the first place. The end result we are playing today. Cryptic was and will never be the right company for a Star Trek MMO. It would have been better if CBS would have approached one big company with decent ressources.

    Cryptics hope was to make a decent Fed experience and add the KDF with the failed 45th day patch. That promise was never fullfilled, every time they had one excuse or another.

    I fear you're right, they are not the right company or group to do this and PWE is certainly not the right company to own the company who is making the game they have no realistic knowledge or insight on a Western market of gamers and fans.
    Support the Game by Supporting the KDF, equality and uniqueness for all factions!
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