Can we all just agree that nothing is sunshine and roses in the Star Trek universe anymore?
The klingons may pose as the occasional bad guys, but that will always be a matter of perspective. I stated my opinion of them above. A klingon player may see justification for their deeds, i don't always and that's not ignorance speaking here, just moral values i (my character [or whatever]) try to adhere to.
If they attack, they are seen as the aggressor. If the Federation Council downplays the Undine infiltration they will be seen as cowards. It seems that's the way it works.
It makes for a good story, at least.
Deeds are always justified in the eyes of the doer, whichever side it may be, and others depending on political expediency. Good and Bad are arbitrary posturing labels based upon the sense of morality of the person or body of people pronouncing judgement upon another person, object, or idea. What may be moral to you may be immoral for someone else and vice versa. But IDIC is only applicable if it falls within the Federation ethos pushed upon the rest of the universe.
So everything it comes down to is the "invasive" nature of Federation ideology. Nobody is forced into the Federation. A cultures has to decide for itself if it accepts the Federations moral code or not.
Your just afraid the klingons could loose their ways, that they would have to compromise to much to coexist with the Federation.
But "modern" day klingons aren't the same as a thousand years ago. It's less about honour and more about battle glory nowadays. If they would have to chang facing Federation values who's to say they wouldn't change for the better (as in better for everyone).
So everything it comes down to is the "invasive" nature of Federation ideology. Nobody is forced into the Federation. A cultures has to decide for itself if it accepts the Federations moral code or not.
Your just afraid the klingons could loose their ways, that they would have to compromise to much to coexist with the Federation.
But "modern" day klingons aren't the same as a thousand years ago. It's less about honour and more about battle glory nowadays. If they would have to chang facing Federation values who's to say they wouldn't change for the better (as in better for everyone).
You freely admit it's a matter of perspective but your perspective on the universe is the only that is warranted? So everything boils down to your perspective? Klingons fear nothing while you and the Federation you so adamantly represent fear dissenting opinion.
You see, according to FreeNoS' plan, I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think; I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech and freedom of choice. I'm the kind of guy who likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecued ribs with the side order of gravy fries?"
I WANT high cholesterol. I wanna eat bacon and butter and BUCKETS of cheese, okay? I want to smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section. I want to run through the streets naked with green Jell-o all over my body reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly might feel the need to, okay, pal?
I've SEEN the Federation. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiener".
You freely admit it's a matter of perspective but your perspective on the universe is the only that is warranted? So everything boils down to your perspective? Klingons fear nothing while you and the Federation you so adamantly represent fear dissenting opinion. [/I]
-Where did i say that my perspective is the right one? I'm simply making suggestions. The poblem with your opinion is, that you can only see in extremes. Sure, cease the day, live life to its fullest or whatever, but don't expect me to like it or to tolerate it. In the end we are not talking about civil offenses, but warmongering.
-It's not the opinion we (the Federation) fear but the reaction that will follow. Trashtalk all you want, i don't care. React on it and face the consequenses. Let your people and ours suffer for your wrongdoing.
-I can accept the weaknesses of the Federation and improve upon them. You just seem to be able to bark out the old slogan, "Klingons fear nothing", again and again. If you are not able to reflect upon yourself, not just in the context of your own needs, but others too, then i don't see much chances for the survival of the empire as it is right now.
Still a very nice (graphic way) of illustrating your opinion. [I'll never get the images of a naked, running G'kar out of my head ... urgh]
-Where did i say that my perspective is the right one? I'm simply making suggestions. The poblem with your opinion is, that you can only see in extremes. Sure, cease the day, live life to its fullest or whatever, but don't expect me to like it or to tolerate it. In the end we are not talking about civil offenses, but warmongering.
-It's not the opinion we (the Federation) fear but the reaction that will follow. Trashtalk all you want, i don't care. React on it and face the consequenses. Let your people and ours suffer for your wrongdoing.
-I can accept the weaknesses of the Federation and improve upon them. You just seem to be able to bark out the old slogan, "Klingons fear nothing", again and again. If you are not able to reflect upon yourself, not just in the context of your own needs, but others too, then i don't see much chances for the survival of the empire as it is right now.
Still a very nice (graphic way) of illustrating your opinion. [I'll never get the images of a naked, running G'kar out of my head ... urgh]
This denotes clearly denotes the adamant perspective of supremacy and intolerance I have already described. But I believe cracked summed up the Federation dystopia fairly well.
Without reading the entire topic. Are Klingons bad guys? Maybe, maybe not. They are idiots though.
Is the KDF 'evil'? again, Maybe, Maybe not. Some of it's member races range from polite to downright criminal though.
To explain the idiot thing. In doomsday device, you watch the captains log of the BoP. The klingon captain states her first officer lead a mutiny against her, one which was not successful. He was the only survivor, and thrown in the brig to be executed later. She goes "How can my very close friend, one I trusted with my life, betray me like this? He tried to explain but I don't have to listen to the words of a traitor!"
So A: She asks Why did he do that. then follows with B: He's a traitor, his words don't matter. So she wants to know why he did it, but tosses aside any explanation/doesn't even listen because he's supposedly a traitor/mutinied against her. Stupidity abounds!
Ties in to why my custom race will always, without fail, start a conversation with a klingon by thinking them idiots. They kill each other for no good reason (Such as Torg conspires with romulans. So what do they do? Not kill him alone and maybe his son. They gut his ENTIRE HOUSE, and people hanging out at his hall that day. Without distinction. Or to swap leadership, they kill the previous guy instead of keeping them alive and having a strong/smart warrior to advise them. OR, the one house master was discovered to be an Undine, Klingon response was to murder his entire house, regardless of who they were or if they were actually Undine).
While working WITH the Federation on a joint venture to retake DS9, and possible continue to fight the borg, they obsess over spying on the Federation.
You guys do know that the war started because the Klingons wanted territory that was part of federation space right?
no it didn't. THe war started because the Feds wouldn't back the Klingons harsh ways of dealing with the Undine infiltrators. The territory grabs came AFTER the war.
The Klingons have never been the "Bad Guys" to me.
Sure, some of them are ****'s but really they're just taking a more aggressive path towards the same goal that the Federation has.
no it didn't. THe war started because the Feds wouldn't back the Klingons harsh ways of dealing with the Undine infiltrators. The territory grabs came AFTER the war.
Which were orginally Klingon colony worlds taken by both the Romulans and the Federation.
You guys do know that the war started because the Klingons wanted territory that was part of federation space right?
2384: Gorn ship attacks and destroys the I.K.S. Quv.
2386: Gorn-Klingon conflict begins.
2390: Federation places ships along the Romulan-Klingon border.
2392: Gorn-Nausicaan fleet attacks Klingon world of Ogat.
2400: The Federation openly denounced the Klingon attempt to expel the Undine infiltrators who were in control of the Gorn Hegemony. In doing so, the Federation openly supported the Undine invaders against the Klingon Empire.
2401: Federation starship U.S.S. Lindberg attempts to assist the Undine infiltrators against the Klingon Empire.
2405: Klingon Empire defends Korvat Colony, a world incorrectly attributed to the Federation.
In effect, the Federation-Klingon war was begun by the Federation in 2400.
no it didn't. THe war started because the Feds wouldn't back the Klingons harsh ways of dealing with the Undine infiltrators. The territory grabs came AFTER the war.
Depending how you look at it, the territory grabs came at start of war. The klingons didn't declare war on the Federation because the Federation wouldn't back them against the gorn. They merely withdrew from the peace treaties.
Then, after dealing with the Gorn, the chancellor decided he was going to reclaim systems originally held by klingons. And delivered the "Get out or we'll conquer the place."
However, while the Klingons clearly have a point regardling Undne infiltration of the Federation, it is highly unlikely that the Klingons are not inflitrated themsekves.
Once again you assume the Klingon Empire would undertake some nefarious outline for universal domination and be forced to face the consequences as a result of their "warmongering" and "wrongdoing" while the gallant Federation charges to the rescue and Klingons attempt to absolve themselves of any blame. You need to fabricate some new propaganda.
Naturally you didn't find the Cracked bit the least bit serious as it mocks your dystopian philosophy.
And again, that is not what i said in my above post.
That Klingon actions might be seen as such isn't propaganda but forming of an opinion.
The Cracked bit wasn't simply funny to me and most of their point where either greatly dependend of perspective or just plain wrong in the context of Star Trek canon. (The part about the admirals i totally agree with though)
You seem to be even more biased then any other poster here. Why so zealous? Afraid the Federation would actually be a good thing? Afraid that life would be too easy with it?
However, while the Klingons clearly have a point regardling Undne infiltration of the Federation, it is highly unlikely that the Klingons are not inflitrated themsekves.
Obviously, but they deal with that by the simple, efficient, and not at all excessive method of killing an entire house whenever one Undine is found within it. :rolleyes:
Okay I have read through all the comments in this post and I get the feeling that some of you never paid attention the TV shows and movies at all! First to answer the original question, NO the KDF just have a different culture and militaristic honor system that influences their actions! Watch this klingon propaganda video to understand what they are all about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9sFyY9LN0M They aren't the bad guy's, in the sense of say the Joker vs. Batman; they aren't villains in the archetypical fashion that some of you seem to be trying to define! In Star Trek villains have always been individuals and not entire cultures. so yes in some episodes and movies the "Bad Guy" might be a Klingon captain, but could also be a rogue Starfleet captain, or a romulan Politian, or a mad scientist, or a human augment, or a homicidal Vulcan, or some new alien species whose idea of hugging involves ripping people to shreds, etc., the list goes on!
The best thing about the show was that it fit into our own reality where everything is not black and white, good and evil, but instead shades of grey! I think the reason some of you dont recognize the similarities between STO and the shows is because you arent looking from the right angle; your focus of which side is good is based on the stars of each series and not the universe they existed in! for example if you watch TNG then your representation of what Starfleet is comes through watching the actions of Captain Picard and the Enterprise crew; who often times have to make tough choices but try to live up to the moral standards that the Federation is supposed to represent! BUT if you look deeper in the series, you see Picard dealing with self-interested Fed Politicians, and getting orders from Starfleet admirals who are often times either corrupt, or believe in a scorched earth policy when it comes to the federations interests over those in opposition! Usually in those episodes Picard finds a way around their orders or to expose their corruption!
So you see while the Federation may represent peace and unity among planets, with Starfleet as the explorative, diplomatic, scientific, and peacekeeping (militaristic) arm of their very noble ideals; they often fall short of them due to political issues, aggressive public opinion, and internal corruption! The same can be said for the Klingon Empire, the Romulan Star Empire, The Cardassian Union, and pretty much every faction in Star Trek lore with exception of the Borg Collective, which is more like a force of nature with no real ideals to corrupt only a need to assimilate all cultures and species into their hive-mind! My point is there are no real good side and bad side; much like in real life there are good individuals that try to do the right thing and there are bad individuals who dont! good KDF AND bad KDF, good Feds and bad Feds; it just comes down to who is giving orders and who is taking them, who is wrong and who is right on an episode by episode basis!
To put it in context right now the U.S. government is ramping up for a possible war with Iran, under the belief that Iran has a nuclear weapons program; which the Iranian government claims is a nuclear power program! Now if they are developing a weapon does that make them the villains? If the U.S. strikes Iran even though we have thousands of our own nuclear weapons, does that make us the Good guys? They answer is no on both; they are two sides acting on their own self-interests with no accord for the opinions of the other! if you were born in Iran and you heard Americans saying you cant have nuclear power because we said so, then to you the U.S. is wrong; if you are an American and somewhat irrational; then the thought of Iran having a nuclear weapon (even though many not so politically friendly countries already do) you might just sh*t your pants and are ready to carpet bomb them as villains! Its all a matter of perception as to which side you would support when it comes down to it!
Star Trek itself was always meant by Gene Roddenberry to be entertainment that secretly makes us all look deeper into ourselves and the world around us, to make us more understanding of other cultures, religions, and belief systems! There are wars, political intrigues, misunderstandings, and lots of bad decisions along the way; but there is always a way to reconcile our differences and learn to eventually get along in the end! But thats just me thinking profoundly than most people do lol!
The Klingons have never been the "Bad Guys" to me.
Sure, some of them are ****'s but really they're just taking a more aggressive path towards the same goal that the Federation has.
no it didn't. THe war started because the Feds wouldn't back the Klingons harsh ways of dealing with the Undine infiltrators. The territory grabs came AFTER the war.
And again, that is not what i said in my above post.
That Klingon actions might be seen as such isn't propaganda but forming of an opinion.
The Cracked bit wasn't simply funny to me and most of their point where either greatly dependend of perspective or just plain wrong in the context of Star Trek canon. (The part about the admirals i totally agree with though)
You seem to be even more biased then any other poster here. Why so zealous? Afraid the Federation would actually be a good thing? Afraid that life would be too easy with it?
Everyone is biased one way or another. What are you afraid of and why are you so zealous? You come in here flashing your Fed badge and expect people not to stick around? I would state you are no less biased than anyone else here. Yet you insist on turning everything around on someone else in their forum.
So you see while the Federation may represent peace and unity among planets, with Starfleet as the explorative, diplomatic, scientific, and peacekeeping (militaristic) arm of their very noble ideals; they often fall short of them due to political issues, aggressive public opinion, and internal corruption! The same can be said for the Klingon Empire, the Romulan Star Empire, The Cardassian Union, and pretty much every faction in Star Trek lore with exception of the Borg Collective, which is more like a force of nature with no real ideals to corrupt only a need to assimilate all cultures and species into their hive-mind! My point is there are no real good side and bad side; much like in real life there are good individuals that try to do the right thing and there are bad individuals who dont! good KDF AND bad KDF, good Feds and bad Feds; it just comes down to who is giving orders and who is taking them, who is wrong and who is right on an episode by episode basis!
I wholeheartedly agree. The problem that some posters in this thread seem to have is, not to being able to see the gray areas. They see the factions as either extreme and it feels like a choice they made to simply be on the other side of the spectrum, to not be what they despise for whatever - black/white viewing - reasons they may have. So the faction they choose can't do anything wrong ... which is basically totally BS.
To be honest, if you dig a little deeper, the Federation wasn't always spotless in the series either.
I mean, the Dominion war - the whole reason that happened basically boils down to this:
Dialouge from the DS9 episdoe "The Jem Hadar":
Third Talak'talan: "Coming through the Anomaly is interference enough. Unless you wish to continue to offend the Dominion, I suggest you stay on your side of the Galaxy."
Dax: "You're making a mistake if you think that detaining Commander Sisko will stop us from exploring the Gamma Quadrant."
I could quote the whole converstation but there isn't much point - it's ALL in that sentence portion of the conversation. The Dominion made it VERY clear that they didn't want the Federation in their territory. Dax's response, which was basically representative of Starfleet's viewpoint, was "get lost - you can't tell us what to do - we'll go where we please".
And what happened next? The (Galaxy class) USS Odyssey gets blown to pieces when they go through the wormhole to check whether or not the Dominion were serious. You REALLY have to wonder what Starfleet Command's response to that must've been?!
Admiral A: Well, lets see - they kidnap a Starfleet Officer, wiped out a colony of Bajorans that had settled on their side and when we sent a ship to establish if their threat about staying out of their space was serious or not they rammed one of our most powerful starships, subsequently destroying it, just to prove a point.
Admiral B: Okay, so they were defintely serious. Lets go violate their space anyway.
And they ended up in a costly war as a result. All because the Dominion said "leave us alone" and the Federation said "no".
As most politicians will tell you, it's not so much about "What" you say, as it is about "How" you say it. In general, most cultures (Federation, AND Klingon, incuded) regard the destruction of their assets, as an "Act of War".This when taken in the context of the Founder's flippant disregard for any lifeforms, save their own, was the reason for StarFleet's heavy handed response. Had the Dominion simply greeted StarFleet in a diplomatic fashion, something along the lines of "Hey we're our own soveriegn, interplanetary, govenment over here, and we welcome any trade/colonial relations you might want to open up. We only ask that you clear things with us first, before sending waves of armed vessels through the wormhole" there wouldn't have been a Dominion War.
I wholeheartedly agree. The problem that some posters in this thread seem to have is, not to being able to see the gray areas. They see the factions as either extreme and it feels like a choice they made to simply be on the other side of the spectrum, to not be what they despise for whatever - black/white viewing - reasons they may have. So the faction they choose can't do anything wrong ... which is basically totally BS.
I hope you spoke that aloud as you typed it since you if anyone are certainly mired in the good/bad dichotomy. You simply try and disguise it amongst text-wall bloviating.
Everyone is biased one way or another. What are you afraid of and why are you so zealous? You come in here flashing your Fed badge and expect people not to stick around? I would state you are no less biased than anyone else here. Yet you insist on turning everything around on someone else in their forum.
Sure everyone is, but atleast i am able th admit the weaknesses of the Federation as it is and not what it wants to be. Try to see beyond the "glory" or "sugar coating", that is the Klingon Empire or the Federation.
Sure everyone is, but atleast i am able th admit the weaknesses of the Federation as it is and not what it wants to be. Try to see beyond the "glory" or "sugar coating", that is the Klingon Empire or the Federation.
For someone so opinionated, one would think you would at least have insight on something else. For having never played KDF you sure spend a lot of time in their forums. 10/14 of your posts this year with 9 in this thread? Need everyone to think as you do much?
The Klingon Empire was supposed to mirror the Mongol Empire of Earth. Although Gene's original intent, was an antagonistic, race, that couldn't be dealt with diplomatically, they have since been supplanted in this role by the Borg.
Interestingly, when Genghis Khan set out on his road of conquest, and hegemony, he treated those he conquered, based on how they treated him, when he showed up. Those who willingly surrendered, without a fight, were given full status as citizens of the Mongol Empire. Rulers were allowed to retain their crowns as underkings, and they could rely on the protection of the largest, fastest, most fearsome, army in the world at that time. Except that they were now a vassal state, business pretty much continued as usual.
Those who resisted, and killed his men, were treated to the site of their leader's, and soldier's heads put on lances, their women TRIBBLE, their food appropriated to feed the warmachine, and in general, the closest thing to Hell on Earth. He once ordered a particularly stubborn enemy's city, burned to the ground, and every last man, woman, child, and dog, killed.
I'm not seeing anything about Korvat being a Klingon colony it just says they had a conference there, in fact the article mentions that the novels say it was Klingon which is non-canon anyway, and the star charts say its a federation planet again non-canon
So who owns the colony is never determined.
Plus the article also does not mention which side attacked the planet in 2405 in fact in only mentions something from 2289.
So seeing as the ownership is not mentioned in anything Cryptic has to follow and their Path to 2409 is the only thing covering the beginning of the war and says this was in 2405 and not 2400 or when the Khitomer Accords dissolved you are in fact WRONG.
For someone so opinionated, one would think you would at least have insight on something else. For having never played KDF you sure spend a lot of time in their forums. 10/14 of your posts this year with 9 in this thread? Need everyone to think as you do much?
I find this thread to be very entertaining and engaging. What can i say?
Shall i do my research on your person as well? It's not about the number of threads. Your dad should have told you that, btw.
Keep on thinking whatever you want to. I myself already learned alot about what a KDF player is like.
Not all that bad all in all, though i'm still not sure if it's community i'd enjoy.
Comments
Deeds are always justified in the eyes of the doer, whichever side it may be, and others depending on political expediency. Good and Bad are arbitrary posturing labels based upon the sense of morality of the person or body of people pronouncing judgement upon another person, object, or idea. What may be moral to you may be immoral for someone else and vice versa. But IDIC is only applicable if it falls within the Federation ethos pushed upon the rest of the universe.
Your just afraid the klingons could loose their ways, that they would have to compromise to much to coexist with the Federation.
But "modern" day klingons aren't the same as a thousand years ago. It's less about honour and more about battle glory nowadays. If they would have to chang facing Federation values who's to say they wouldn't change for the better (as in better for everyone).
You freely admit it's a matter of perspective but your perspective on the universe is the only that is warranted? So everything boils down to your perspective? Klingons fear nothing while you and the Federation you so adamantly represent fear dissenting opinion.
You see, according to FreeNoS' plan, I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think; I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech and freedom of choice. I'm the kind of guy who likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecued ribs with the side order of gravy fries?"
I WANT high cholesterol. I wanna eat bacon and butter and BUCKETS of cheese, okay? I want to smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section. I want to run through the streets naked with green Jell-o all over my body reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly might feel the need to, okay, pal?
I've SEEN the Federation. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiener".
-Where did i say that my perspective is the right one? I'm simply making suggestions. The poblem with your opinion is, that you can only see in extremes. Sure, cease the day, live life to its fullest or whatever, but don't expect me to like it or to tolerate it. In the end we are not talking about civil offenses, but warmongering.
-It's not the opinion we (the Federation) fear but the reaction that will follow. Trashtalk all you want, i don't care. React on it and face the consequenses. Let your people and ours suffer for your wrongdoing.
-I can accept the weaknesses of the Federation and improve upon them. You just seem to be able to bark out the old slogan, "Klingons fear nothing", again and again. If you are not able to reflect upon yourself, not just in the context of your own needs, but others too, then i don't see much chances for the survival of the empire as it is right now.
Still a very nice (graphic way) of illustrating your opinion. [I'll never get the images of a naked, running G'kar out of my head ... urgh]
This denotes clearly denotes the adamant perspective of supremacy and intolerance I have already described. But I believe cracked summed up the Federation dystopia fairly well.
http://www.cracked.com/video_18398_why-star-trek-universe-secretly-horrifying.html
Is the KDF 'evil'? again, Maybe, Maybe not. Some of it's member races range from polite to downright criminal though.
To explain the idiot thing. In doomsday device, you watch the captains log of the BoP. The klingon captain states her first officer lead a mutiny against her, one which was not successful. He was the only survivor, and thrown in the brig to be executed later. She goes "How can my very close friend, one I trusted with my life, betray me like this? He tried to explain but I don't have to listen to the words of a traitor!"
So A: She asks Why did he do that. then follows with B: He's a traitor, his words don't matter. So she wants to know why he did it, but tosses aside any explanation/doesn't even listen because he's supposedly a traitor/mutinied against her. Stupidity abounds!
Ties in to why my custom race will always, without fail, start a conversation with a klingon by thinking them idiots. They kill each other for no good reason (Such as Torg conspires with romulans. So what do they do? Not kill him alone and maybe his son. They gut his ENTIRE HOUSE, and people hanging out at his hall that day. Without distinction. Or to swap leadership, they kill the previous guy instead of keeping them alive and having a strong/smart warrior to advise them. OR, the one house master was discovered to be an Undine, Klingon response was to murder his entire house, regardless of who they were or if they were actually Undine).
While working WITH the Federation on a joint venture to retake DS9, and possible continue to fight the borg, they obsess over spying on the Federation.
You guys do know that the war started because the Klingons wanted territory that was part of federation space right?
Sure, some of them are ****'s but really they're just taking a more aggressive path towards the same goal that the Federation has.
no it didn't. THe war started because the Feds wouldn't back the Klingons harsh ways of dealing with the Undine infiltrators. The territory grabs came AFTER the war.
Which were orginally Klingon colony worlds taken by both the Romulans and the Federation.
2384: Gorn ship attacks and destroys the I.K.S. Quv.
2386: Gorn-Klingon conflict begins.
2390: Federation places ships along the Romulan-Klingon border.
2392: Gorn-Nausicaan fleet attacks Klingon world of Ogat.
2400: The Federation openly denounced the Klingon attempt to expel the Undine infiltrators who were in control of the Gorn Hegemony. In doing so, the Federation openly supported the Undine invaders against the Klingon Empire.
2401: Federation starship U.S.S. Lindberg attempts to assist the Undine infiltrators against the Klingon Empire.
2405: Klingon Empire defends Korvat Colony, a world incorrectly attributed to the Federation.
In effect, the Federation-Klingon war was begun by the Federation in 2400.
Depending how you look at it, the territory grabs came at start of war. The klingons didn't declare war on the Federation because the Federation wouldn't back them against the gorn. They merely withdrew from the peace treaties.
Then, after dealing with the Gorn, the chancellor decided he was going to reclaim systems originally held by klingons. And delivered the "Get out or we'll conquer the place."
Then the war came.
At least, that's how I remember reading it.
And again, that is not what i said in my above post.
That Klingon actions might be seen as such isn't propaganda but forming of an opinion.
The Cracked bit wasn't simply funny to me and most of their point where either greatly dependend of perspective or just plain wrong in the context of Star Trek canon. (The part about the admirals i totally agree with though)
You seem to be even more biased then any other poster here. Why so zealous? Afraid the Federation would actually be a good thing? Afraid that life would be too easy with it?
Obviously, but they deal with that by the simple, efficient, and not at all excessive method of killing an entire house whenever one Undine is found within it. :rolleyes:
The best thing about the show was that it fit into our own reality where everything is not black and white, good and evil, but instead shades of grey! I think the reason some of you dont recognize the similarities between STO and the shows is because you arent looking from the right angle; your focus of which side is good is based on the stars of each series and not the universe they existed in! for example if you watch TNG then your representation of what Starfleet is comes through watching the actions of Captain Picard and the Enterprise crew; who often times have to make tough choices but try to live up to the moral standards that the Federation is supposed to represent! BUT if you look deeper in the series, you see Picard dealing with self-interested Fed Politicians, and getting orders from Starfleet admirals who are often times either corrupt, or believe in a scorched earth policy when it comes to the federations interests over those in opposition! Usually in those episodes Picard finds a way around their orders or to expose their corruption!
So you see while the Federation may represent peace and unity among planets, with Starfleet as the explorative, diplomatic, scientific, and peacekeeping (militaristic) arm of their very noble ideals; they often fall short of them due to political issues, aggressive public opinion, and internal corruption! The same can be said for the Klingon Empire, the Romulan Star Empire, The Cardassian Union, and pretty much every faction in Star Trek lore with exception of the Borg Collective, which is more like a force of nature with no real ideals to corrupt only a need to assimilate all cultures and species into their hive-mind! My point is there are no real good side and bad side; much like in real life there are good individuals that try to do the right thing and there are bad individuals who dont! good KDF AND bad KDF, good Feds and bad Feds; it just comes down to who is giving orders and who is taking them, who is wrong and who is right on an episode by episode basis!
To put it in context right now the U.S. government is ramping up for a possible war with Iran, under the belief that Iran has a nuclear weapons program; which the Iranian government claims is a nuclear power program! Now if they are developing a weapon does that make them the villains? If the U.S. strikes Iran even though we have thousands of our own nuclear weapons, does that make us the Good guys? They answer is no on both; they are two sides acting on their own self-interests with no accord for the opinions of the other! if you were born in Iran and you heard Americans saying you cant have nuclear power because we said so, then to you the U.S. is wrong; if you are an American and somewhat irrational; then the thought of Iran having a nuclear weapon (even though many not so politically friendly countries already do) you might just sh*t your pants and are ready to carpet bomb them as villains! Its all a matter of perception as to which side you would support when it comes down to it!
Star Trek itself was always meant by Gene Roddenberry to be entertainment that secretly makes us all look deeper into ourselves and the world around us, to make us more understanding of other cultures, religions, and belief systems! There are wars, political intrigues, misunderstandings, and lots of bad decisions along the way; but there is always a way to reconcile our differences and learn to eventually get along in the end! But thats just me thinking profoundly than most people do lol!
WRONG
http://www.stowiki.org/2405
Also shown as wrong in the above link.
Wrong for you and also for Cryptic.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Korvat_colony
Everyone is biased one way or another. What are you afraid of and why are you so zealous? You come in here flashing your Fed badge and expect people not to stick around? I would state you are no less biased than anyone else here. Yet you insist on turning everything around on someone else in their forum.
I wholeheartedly agree. The problem that some posters in this thread seem to have is, not to being able to see the gray areas. They see the factions as either extreme and it feels like a choice they made to simply be on the other side of the spectrum, to not be what they despise for whatever - black/white viewing - reasons they may have. So the faction they choose can't do anything wrong ... which is basically totally BS.
As most politicians will tell you, it's not so much about "What" you say, as it is about "How" you say it. In general, most cultures (Federation, AND Klingon, incuded) regard the destruction of their assets, as an "Act of War".This when taken in the context of the Founder's flippant disregard for any lifeforms, save their own, was the reason for StarFleet's heavy handed response. Had the Dominion simply greeted StarFleet in a diplomatic fashion, something along the lines of "Hey we're our own soveriegn, interplanetary, govenment over here, and we welcome any trade/colonial relations you might want to open up. We only ask that you clear things with us first, before sending waves of armed vessels through the wormhole" there wouldn't have been a Dominion War.
I hope you spoke that aloud as you typed it since you if anyone are certainly mired in the good/bad dichotomy. You simply try and disguise it amongst text-wall bloviating.
Sure everyone is, but atleast i am able th admit the weaknesses of the Federation as it is and not what it wants to be. Try to see beyond the "glory" or "sugar coating", that is the Klingon Empire or the Federation.
For someone so opinionated, one would think you would at least have insight on something else. For having never played KDF you sure spend a lot of time in their forums. 10/14 of your posts this year with 9 in this thread? Need everyone to think as you do much?
Interestingly, when Genghis Khan set out on his road of conquest, and hegemony, he treated those he conquered, based on how they treated him, when he showed up. Those who willingly surrendered, without a fight, were given full status as citizens of the Mongol Empire. Rulers were allowed to retain their crowns as underkings, and they could rely on the protection of the largest, fastest, most fearsome, army in the world at that time. Except that they were now a vassal state, business pretty much continued as usual.
Those who resisted, and killed his men, were treated to the site of their leader's, and soldier's heads put on lances, their women TRIBBLE, their food appropriated to feed the warmachine, and in general, the closest thing to Hell on Earth. He once ordered a particularly stubborn enemy's city, burned to the ground, and every last man, woman, child, and dog, killed.
I'm not seeing anything about Korvat being a Klingon colony it just says they had a conference there, in fact the article mentions that the novels say it was Klingon which is non-canon anyway, and the star charts say its a federation planet again non-canon
So who owns the colony is never determined.
Plus the article also does not mention which side attacked the planet in 2405 in fact in only mentions something from 2289.
So seeing as the ownership is not mentioned in anything Cryptic has to follow and their Path to 2409 is the only thing covering the beginning of the war and says this was in 2405 and not 2400 or when the Khitomer Accords dissolved you are in fact WRONG.
I find this thread to be very entertaining and engaging. What can i say?
Shall i do my research on your person as well? It's not about the number of threads. Your dad should have told you that, btw.
Keep on thinking whatever you want to. I myself already learned alot about what a KDF player is like.
Not all that bad all in all, though i'm still not sure if it's community i'd enjoy.