What I want to know - and what I was, this morning, imagining a Klingon advocate (whose father is in Federation service) speaking before the High Council arguing - is whether, when the Federation does wake up and see the real enemy(*), will the Klingons accept that as victory and embrace them as allies again? Or will they be too blinded by the desire for conquest and glory to make peace?
(* as I personally feel the Federation inevitably must, and would have by now if not for the frozen timeline and the MMO assumption that we have to have factional PvP)
What I want to know - and what I was, this morning, imagining a Klingon advocate (whose father is in Federation service) speaking before the High Council arguing - is whether, when the Federation does wake up and see the real enemy(*), will the Klingons accept that as victory and embrace them as allies again? Or will they be too blinded by the desire for conquest and glory to make peace?
(* as I personally feel the Federation inevitably must, and would have by now if not for the frozen timeline and the MMO assumption that we have to have factional PvP)
Most likely, they'd want a LOT of groveling. The Federation will need to make up for the mistrust that even the uncorrupted members have been showing simply by participating in the war, and if they do not feel the federation are really sorry for what happened, will not stop with the conquest until they MAKE them sorry. That's what I personally think it would come down to, and despite being a main FED player, would support that. Hell If I had the chance, commandeer my current vessal and join the KDF, they're clearly in the right here
Edit: by join, I mean as the fed character, because giving the obviously undine controlled higher ups the message would be the important part
Eh. I think that if the High Council is not willing to offer the Federation "peace with honor" - or insists on bringing them into the Empire as "trusted vassals" like the Gorn, rather than as true equals - then we're all going to be stuck fighting in this burning house a while longer. The Federation isn't going to go for that deal, and IMO they shouldn't.
That's my worry - that to some Klingons (how many?) this is no longer just about getting the Federation on their side against the Undine, Iconians et al, it's about beating them. Which serves the purposes of those real enemies nicely.
Tbh, I think that could work. It would allow the universe plot to 'move on' instead of perpetually being in a war with the klingons forever with no changes in however many years, while still having enough conflict to warrent the game itself staying the same. One of the downsides of an mmo is the fact that it's a foregone conclusion that the conflict between factions will stay the same. At least the nature of the conflict can be flexible here.
I agree. It would continue to provide an excuse for PvP, but also acknowledge that wars have a nasty way of taking on a life of their own, beyond their supposed causes; make it not just a case of the Federation's wilful blindness; and (perhaps accompanied by an open Gorn rebellion) force the Klingons to confront the truth that hitting people until they agree to be on your side (or have no other choice) is not always a viable long-term solution.
As I see it the Klingons have never really been bad guys. Sure they're aggressive and war like but they're more to me a different people with a different agenda. Some times their agenda is different, some times it's the same. Sure there are a large amount of dishonorable among them, but as it's been pointed out, the Feds can be just as corrupt and shameful. The same goes for the romulans and the undine. Players and NPCs. All we can really do is what is best for our ships and crew and hope that it works out for our faction until they make some new content or diplomatic missions or such that would suggest otherwise. I've been on plenty of missions with KDF where i came out with a respect for them and actually look forward to teaming again. Life, the universe, and everything there in is just a matter of perspective. What is Bad to one person might be something all together different from a new angle.
Well, for me, the STO Klingons definitely are. TNG and DS9 era Klingons were not necessarily, but those Klingons of today?
They kill their own crew (doff assignments) just like in the TOS era.
They torture their prisoners. (There is this mission where you absolutely have to torture a federation captain or the mission does not move on...)
The raid other species. (doff assignments)
They blackmail other species into submission and trade agreeements(doff assignments).
That's, to me, not what good guys, or the honorable warriors of TNG and DS9, would do.
What do you think about this question?
They are not the "bad guys" for me, they are a different culture with a code of honor. Now granted there is rampant corruption throughout the Empire and the way that Cryptic has done the Empire in general is awful, but they are still the faction that I prefer over the Federation and definitely over the Romulans or Cardassians.
We are certainly different and our ways are not the feds ways.
I like to think of ourselves as highly misunderstood by the federation but since we are not a part of the federation ours actions do not need explanation or changes top bring us in line with feds way of seeing things.
From one of my previous posts, with regard to Federation policy in general and the Undine crisis in particular:
"The Federation loves to talk. And talk. And did we mention that the house is on fire? Let us talk about that. Let us bring it before the Council, and have a vote. Not to do anything, no, but to form a committee to decide what to do.
Two months later, the committee reports that we should throw water on the fire. Another vote is held to do so. With great ceremony, water is poured over the ashes where the house once stood. A week after, when no sign of fire is seen, the Federation declares a great victory!"
Im sure once the Klingons Defeat the Federation they will introduce "free and fair elections" and win "hearts and minds" (or not)
Meanwhile starfleet will take to the hills and fight as per the movie
The Klingons have never been for "free and fair elections" or winning "hearts and minds." Their own government is not a democracy or a republic. It's not a monarchy either. As for winning "hearts and minds" either you submit or get killed. That's it.
That's how the Klingon Empire has always operated. TOS, TMP, TNG, DS9 episodes and related movies. That's tradition.
Now, the real issue is if the Federation represented in STO is even the Federation that so many of you are fond of from the movies and TV shows. Their actions and policies as a whole are a complete polar opposite of those done by the Federation in all other ST shows and movies. The perfect example is the open, constant interference in Romulan internal affairs in the related quests. The Federation is not at war with the Romulans, but yet they constantly, CONSTANTLY aggressively do whatever they damn well please with the Romulans in THEIR space, taking advantage of the fact that they're still recovering from Romulus' loss. The Federation in STO is so uncharacteristically aggressive that diplomacy really doesn't exist in their big picture. The fact that they WANT to p*ss off the Romulans into a state of war while still mired in a stalemate with the Klingon Empire speaks enough. Even the Federation during times of terrible conflicts of the past sought diplomacy to end a conflict. Never have their wars with the major, traditional powers have been "final."
One cannot expect a people like the Romulans will stay weak forever. And... "The Empire will strike back." There, I said it!
The Klingons have never been for "free and fair elections" or winning "hearts and minds." Their own government is not a democracy or a republic. It's not a monarchy either. As for winning "hearts and minds" either you submit or get killed. That's it.
Its called Satire
That's how the Klingon Empire has always operated. TOS, TMP, TNG, DS9 episodes and related movies. That's tradition.
yep i know (unlike a lot of people here I remember the original series showing the first time)
There is no such thing as an ethical occupation or invasion (not one in all of history)
and there is no such thing as a "free and fair" election in any country under occupation
Now, the real issue is if the Federation represented in STO is even the Federation that so many of you are fond of from the movies and TV shows. Their actions and policies as a whole are a complete polar opposite of those done by the Federation in all other ST shows and movies. The perfect example is the open, constant interference in Romulan internal affairs in the related quests. The Federation is not at war with the Romulans, but yet they constantly, CONSTANTLY aggressively do whatever they damn well please with the Romulans in THEIR space, taking advantage of the fact that they're still recovering from Romulus' loss. The Federation in STO is so uncharacteristically aggressive that diplomacy really doesn't exist in their big picture. The fact that they WANT to p*ss off the Romulans into a state of war while still mired in a stalemate with the Klingon Empire speaks enough.
sadly the Federation has always echoed the actions of the culture that created it
and as that has become darker so has the federation
Economic chaos , terrorism , wars these all darkened the bright glory of the TOS days
One cannot expect a people like the Romulans will stay weak forever. And... "The Empire will strike back." There, I said it!
the klingons and the feds and the romulans are ALL good guys from their own perspectives
There is no such thing as an ethical occupation or invasion (not one in all of history)
i would like to think of the occupation after world war 2, of austria and germany as a good thing, to help to build up a society again, but some may think differnt about that time.
Economic chaos , terrorism , wars these all darkened the bright glory of the TOS days
to be fair, there is not much information about that specific period in star trek.
the klingons and the feds and the romulans are ALL good guys from their own perspectives
true, evil allways believes to be doing good in some way. It's perspective that sepperates good from evil.
Quote:
There is no such thing as an ethical occupation or invasion (not one in all of history)
i would like to think of the occupation after world war 2, of austria and germany as a good thing, to help to build up a society again, but some may think differnt about that time.
yes a lot would disagree
Quote:
Economic chaos , terrorism , wars these all darkened the bright glory of the TOS days
to be fair, there is not much information about that specific period in star trek.
not what I ment
Tos was written in bright shiny optimistic times
TNG and DS9 in less cheerful times
and so on
Quote:
the klingons and the feds and the romulans are ALL good guys from their own perspectives
true, evil allways believes to be doing good in some way. It's perspective that sepperates good from evil.
not what I ment
Tos was written in bright shiny optimistic times
TNG and DS9 in less cheerful times
and so on
on this we agree
ha, yes sure in old greek...but the rest of the world calls it sarcasm...srsly believe me. or don't, i don't care...i just tried to disconfuse others who may read it.
and yeah TOS was written during the hights of the cold war...nuclear armageddon on our doorsteb...very bright and optimistic times^^
but i think what you mean is, that roddenberry wanted to give a brighter view of the far future than most other sci fi films/series did in those days.
Both the Federation and the Klingon Empire aren't exactly adhering to their moral standards in the STO universe.
The klingons may have have always been about honour, but more often the way of honour that has been layed out for them by Kahless is just used to further their selfish goals. Honour becomes more about politics than anything else. They truly are a warrior race, biological and morally. It's always been survival of the fittest for them, but in these days, in this age this might not be necessary anymore. To me as a 21st century human they look like outlandish barbarians who will bend their moral values as they see fit. They take pleasure in violence and don't actually care who they drag into their business as long as it takes them into glorious battle.
So yeah, from an outsiders perspective, they are bad. I feel that some people had their view blurred by some romantic feeling of freedom when they embrace their wild, inner klingon.
And just to balance things out: the Federation and its moral principals as a whole are actually something i could embrace. That said, these guiding principals are broken a lot of times, not only in STO but also in other adaptation of the universe. This kinda taints the Federation as a whole. BUT ... the Federation isn't stupid. Either you take drastic measures or you will perish facing the threats recent times. If they will come out of this conflict as better or worse is yet to be determined. One thing is for sure though, they won't be the same. For all i know the Undine and/or Iconian infiltration could be at a much higher scale then anybody would dare to estimate. Maybe that will lead to Starfleet Intelligence being omnipresent or Section 31 will step out of its shadow and take more controll than you'll want them to have. (See the DS 9 episode "Paradise Lost" for a view of what could be)
The Federation simply aren't the good guys. Sometimes the means justify the end and sometimes they don't.
To all those klingon players that will always see their kling surrounded by sunshine and roses (insert: targs and bloodwine): it's what YOU see them as and this view might differ greatly from the established lore.
Just don't try to trash talk the other side before you look at yourself. Klingons and the Federation aren't constants. They are changing and some people should try to adept their view ... at least a little.
That's, to me, not what good guys, or the honorable warriors of TNG and DS9, would do.
Klingons were written randomly depending upon whatever floated the producers boat at the time. Vikings, samurai, inscrutable Asians, drunken brodudes. Add the trend of trying to top the last portrayal ("Why don't we have Worf murder his brother... BECAUSE HONOR! Shut up!") and Klingons become whatever you want them to be. The game has the same problem.
But I don't think this is a bad thing since it negates the Planet of Hats problem in Star Trek a little bit.
Both the Federation and the Klingon Empire aren't exactly adhering to their moral standards in the STO universe.
The klingons may have have always been about honour, but more often the way of honour that has been layed out for them by Kahless is just used to further their selfish goals. Honour becomes more about politics than anything else. They truly are a warrior race, biological and morally. It's always been survival of the fittest for them, but in these days, in this age this might not be necessary anymore. To me as a 21st century human they look like outlandish barbarians who will bend their moral values as they see fit. They take pleasure in violence and don't actually care who they drag into their business as long as it takes them into glorious battle.
So yeah, from an outsiders perspective, they are bad. I feel that some people had their view blurred by some romantic feeling of freedom when they embrace their wild, inner klingon.
And just to balance things out: the Federation and its moral principals as a whole are actually something i could embrace. That said, these guiding principals are broken a lot of times, not only in STO but also in other adaptation of the universe. This kinda taints the Federation as a whole. BUT ... the Federation isn't stupid. Either you take drastic measures or you will perish facing the threats recent times. If they will come out of this conflict as better or worse is yet to be determined. One thing is for sure though, they won't be the same. For all i know the Undine and/or Iconian infiltration could be at a much higher scale then anybody would dare to estimate. Maybe that will lead to Starfleet Intelligence being omnipresent or Section 31 will step out of its shadow and take more controll than you'll want them to have. (See the DS 9 episode "Paradise Lost" for a view of what could be)
The Federation simply aren't the good guys. Sometimes the means justify the end and sometimes they don't.
To all those klingon players that will always see their kling surrounded by sunshine and roses (insert: targs and bloodwine): it's what YOU see them as and this view might differ greatly from the established lore.
Just don't try to trash talk the other side before you look at yourself. Klingons and the Federation aren't constants. They are changing and some people should try to adept their view ... at least a little.
Underneath the rozy glow and sickening sugar coating draping the Federation as you view it through your happy colored VISOR, one thing remains: You're just another weak human afraid to face death.
Underneath the rozy glow and sickening sugar coating draping the Federation as you view it through your happy colored VISOR, one thing remains: You're just another weak human afraid to face death.
Well of course i do, you targ loving *******!
To live to essentially just die and become one with this alcohol induced dreamland you call Sto'Vo'Kor isn't exactly what i aspire. It is pretty pointless. And to do so you make the life of any non-Klingon more miserable, just to further your own selfish goals. When there is no one else to fight the Klingons will turn on themselves, as they have done before. Having the Federation to despise is just a convenience.
That is the uncut, undiverting storyline.
Its actually and interactive CD game that offered one options in different situations and had Klingon specific info buried in the game itself that one could uncover by mousing over objects in the different scenes.
To live to essentially just die and become one with this alcohol induced dreamland you call Sto'Vo'Kor isn't exactly what i aspire. It is pretty pointless. And to do so you make the life of any non-Klingon more miserable, just to further your own selfish goals. When there is no one else to fight the Klingons will turn on themselves, as they have done before. Having the Federation to despise is just a convenience.
I do believe it was Humans Q referred to as a "grievously savage race." Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
I do believe it was Humans Q referred to as a "grievously savage race." Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
He also stated that humanity had the potential to one day evolve beyond the Q. So yeah ... i really don't wanna know what his true view of the klingons is.
He also stated that humanity had the potential to one day evolve beyond the Q. So yeah ... i really don't wanna know what his true view of the klingons is.
He also stated that humanity had the potential to one day evolve beyond the Q. So yeah ... i really don't wanna know what his true view of the klingons is.
Can we all just agree that nothing is sunshine and roses in the Star Trek universe anymore?
The klingons may pose as the occasional bad guys, but that will always be a matter of perspective. I stated my opinion of them above. A klingon player may see justification for their deeds, i don't always and that's not ignorance speaking here, just moral values i (my character [or whatever]) try to adhere to.
If they attack, they are seen as the aggressor. If the Federation Council downplays the Undine infiltration they will be seen as cowards. It seems that's the way it works.
It makes for a good story, at least.
Comments
(* as I personally feel the Federation inevitably must, and would have by now if not for the frozen timeline and the MMO assumption that we have to have factional PvP)
Most likely, they'd want a LOT of groveling. The Federation will need to make up for the mistrust that even the uncorrupted members have been showing simply by participating in the war, and if they do not feel the federation are really sorry for what happened, will not stop with the conquest until they MAKE them sorry. That's what I personally think it would come down to, and despite being a main FED player, would support that. Hell If I had the chance, commandeer my current vessal and join the KDF, they're clearly in the right here
Edit: by join, I mean as the fed character, because giving the obviously undine controlled higher ups the message would be the important part
That's my worry - that to some Klingons (how many?) this is no longer just about getting the Federation on their side against the Undine, Iconians et al, it's about beating them. Which serves the purposes of those real enemies nicely.
Meanwhile starfleet will take to the hills and fight as per the movie
They are not the "bad guys" for me, they are a different culture with a code of honor. Now granted there is rampant corruption throughout the Empire and the way that Cryptic has done the Empire in general is awful, but they are still the faction that I prefer over the Federation and definitely over the Romulans or Cardassians.
I'm watching this now. It's a lot of fun.
"The Federation loves to talk. And talk. And did we mention that the house is on fire? Let us talk about that. Let us bring it before the Council, and have a vote. Not to do anything, no, but to form a committee to decide what to do.
Two months later, the committee reports that we should throw water on the fire. Another vote is held to do so. With great ceremony, water is poured over the ashes where the house once stood. A week after, when no sign of fire is seen, the Federation declares a great victory!"
The Klingons have never been for "free and fair elections" or winning "hearts and minds." Their own government is not a democracy or a republic. It's not a monarchy either. As for winning "hearts and minds" either you submit or get killed. That's it.
That's how the Klingon Empire has always operated. TOS, TMP, TNG, DS9 episodes and related movies. That's tradition.
Now, the real issue is if the Federation represented in STO is even the Federation that so many of you are fond of from the movies and TV shows. Their actions and policies as a whole are a complete polar opposite of those done by the Federation in all other ST shows and movies. The perfect example is the open, constant interference in Romulan internal affairs in the related quests. The Federation is not at war with the Romulans, but yet they constantly, CONSTANTLY aggressively do whatever they damn well please with the Romulans in THEIR space, taking advantage of the fact that they're still recovering from Romulus' loss. The Federation in STO is so uncharacteristically aggressive that diplomacy really doesn't exist in their big picture. The fact that they WANT to p*ss off the Romulans into a state of war while still mired in a stalemate with the Klingon Empire speaks enough. Even the Federation during times of terrible conflicts of the past sought diplomacy to end a conflict. Never have their wars with the major, traditional powers have been "final."
One cannot expect a people like the Romulans will stay weak forever. And... "The Empire will strike back." There, I said it!
Its called Satire
yep i know (unlike a lot of people here I remember the original series showing the first time)
There is no such thing as an ethical occupation or invasion (not one in all of history)
and there is no such thing as a "free and fair" election in any country under occupation
sadly the Federation has always echoed the actions of the culture that created it
and as that has become darker so has the federation
Economic chaos , terrorism , wars these all darkened the bright glory of the TOS days
the klingons and the feds and the romulans are ALL good guys from their own perspectives
actually it's called sarcasm...
i would like to think of the occupation after world war 2, of austria and germany as a good thing, to help to build up a society again, but some may think differnt about that time.
to be fair, there is not much information about that specific period in star trek.
true, evil allways believes to be doing good in some way. It's perspective that sepperates good from evil.
Satire (from an old greek word)
yes a lot would disagree
not what I ment
Tos was written in bright shiny optimistic times
TNG and DS9 in less cheerful times
and so on on this we agree
ha, yes sure in old greek...but the rest of the world calls it sarcasm...srsly believe me. or don't, i don't care...i just tried to disconfuse others who may read it.
and yeah TOS was written during the hights of the cold war...nuclear armageddon on our doorsteb...very bright and optimistic times^^
but i think what you mean is, that roddenberry wanted to give a brighter view of the far future than most other sci fi films/series did in those days.
The klingons may have have always been about honour, but more often the way of honour that has been layed out for them by Kahless is just used to further their selfish goals. Honour becomes more about politics than anything else. They truly are a warrior race, biological and morally. It's always been survival of the fittest for them, but in these days, in this age this might not be necessary anymore. To me as a 21st century human they look like outlandish barbarians who will bend their moral values as they see fit. They take pleasure in violence and don't actually care who they drag into their business as long as it takes them into glorious battle.
So yeah, from an outsiders perspective, they are bad. I feel that some people had their view blurred by some romantic feeling of freedom when they embrace their wild, inner klingon.
And just to balance things out: the Federation and its moral principals as a whole are actually something i could embrace. That said, these guiding principals are broken a lot of times, not only in STO but also in other adaptation of the universe. This kinda taints the Federation as a whole. BUT ... the Federation isn't stupid. Either you take drastic measures or you will perish facing the threats recent times. If they will come out of this conflict as better or worse is yet to be determined. One thing is for sure though, they won't be the same. For all i know the Undine and/or Iconian infiltration could be at a much higher scale then anybody would dare to estimate. Maybe that will lead to Starfleet Intelligence being omnipresent or Section 31 will step out of its shadow and take more controll than you'll want them to have. (See the DS 9 episode "Paradise Lost" for a view of what could be)
The Federation simply aren't the good guys. Sometimes the means justify the end and sometimes they don't.
To all those klingon players that will always see their kling surrounded by sunshine and roses (insert: targs and bloodwine): it's what YOU see them as and this view might differ greatly from the established lore.
Just don't try to trash talk the other side before you look at yourself. Klingons and the Federation aren't constants. They are changing and some people should try to adept their view ... at least a little.
Klingons were written randomly depending upon whatever floated the producers boat at the time. Vikings, samurai, inscrutable Asians, drunken brodudes. Add the trend of trying to top the last portrayal ("Why don't we have Worf murder his brother... BECAUSE HONOR! Shut up!") and Klingons become whatever you want them to be. The game has the same problem.
But I don't think this is a bad thing since it negates the Planet of Hats problem in Star Trek a little bit.
They're very human in that regard.
Underneath the rozy glow and sickening sugar coating draping the Federation as you view it through your happy colored VISOR, one thing remains: You're just another weak human afraid to face death.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?src_vid=Z6zDg0dKygE&v=P9sFyY9LN0M&annotation_id=annotation_473147&feature=iv
LOL, "We'll conquer you eventually. Why not reap the benefits now?"
Well of course i do, you targ loving *******!
To live to essentially just die and become one with this alcohol induced dreamland you call Sto'Vo'Kor isn't exactly what i aspire. It is pretty pointless. And to do so you make the life of any non-Klingon more miserable, just to further your own selfish goals. When there is no one else to fight the Klingons will turn on themselves, as they have done before. Having the Federation to despise is just a convenience.
That is the uncut, undiverting storyline.
Its actually and interactive CD game that offered one options in different situations and had Klingon specific info buried in the game itself that one could uncover by mousing over objects in the different scenes.
I do believe it was Humans Q referred to as a "grievously savage race." Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
He also stated that humanity had the potential to one day evolve beyond the Q. So yeah ... i really don't wanna know what his true view of the klingons is.
Oh and that clich
The klingons may pose as the occasional bad guys, but that will always be a matter of perspective. I stated my opinion of them above. A klingon player may see justification for their deeds, i don't always and that's not ignorance speaking here, just moral values i (my character [or whatever]) try to adhere to.
If they attack, they are seen as the aggressor. If the Federation Council downplays the Undine infiltration they will be seen as cowards. It seems that's the way it works.
It makes for a good story, at least.