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Are the Klingons "bad guys" for you?
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Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Well, for me, the STO Klingons definitely are. TNG and DS9 era Klingons were not necessarily, but those Klingons of today?
That's, to me, not what good guys, or the honorable warriors of TNG and DS9, would do.
What do you think about this question?
- They kill their own crew (doff assignments) just like in the TOS era.
- They torture their prisoners. (There is this mission where you absolutely have to torture a federation captain or the mission does not move on...)
- The raid other species. (doff assignments)
- They blackmail other species into submission and trade agreeements(doff assignments).
That's, to me, not what good guys, or the honorable warriors of TNG and DS9, would do.
What do you think about this question?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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lawful execution for incompetence (if this took place in starfleet there would be less admirals)
so does everyone else (mind TRIBBLE by telepaths counts)
so do all the others (federation raids occur)
Again everyone does
Hell in a universe where the feds exterminate medical personel are there ANY good guys ?
See above
The wall-to-wall Borg puts pay to that And if I'm honest, I have a difficult time believing that the Federation and Klingons would be at war* with the Borg presence being what it is in STO.
* And before anyone shouts 'Omega Force' - that is an uneasy alliance and is actually described as such in-game.
For me the Federation are the bad guys of STO. They are corrupt, incompetent, have no honor at all but pretend it and did nothing against the proofen Undine Infiltration of the Alpha Quadrant. Regarding to STOlore they have been infiltrated as well and seem to know, but do nothing about it. That makes them even worse for me.
Kliing people who trust you is absolutely not acceptable. Punishment may be required, depending on the culture. But death won't make anyone learn anything.
That's a good point.
The Klingons have historically been aggressive. Before TNG timeframe, the Klingons have had numerous conflicts with both the Federation and Romulans. The hatred between the Klingons and Romulans run deep. But the Empire famously had many conflicts, skirmishes, or outright wars with the Federation before and during Kirk's time. The Klingons have been traditional rivals with the Federation with on and off bouts of war or a "cold war-like" state between the two powers.
The Klingons don't take kindly to poor performers and idiots. Recall in Search for Spock the gunner who defied Capt.Kruge's orders to target the Fed ship's engines (he wanted... prisoners for information), and instead destroyed it. Kruge promptly "dispatched" the fool that defied the Captain's authority.
One aspect the Klingons have been very good with is "raiding" deep behind enemy lines. Their cloaked fleet is good for it, but their Birds of Prey have been so good at it, that they've started service from Kirk's time and still continue to serve in STO's timeframe. What does raiding entail? Gathering intel and causing alot of havoc and damage deep behind enemy lines. That means hitting civillian targets, too.
If you really want to talk about villainy, you need to talk about the Federation in STO. They are by far the most aggressive, largest traditional power in the quadrant. Treaties mean nothing to the Federation. Pre-emptive strikes before hostilities is the norm. In so many of their quests in STO, Starfleet openly disrgards their own standards, rules, or agreements the Federation has made to other powers. Just because relations are strained with a government you are not at war with, doesn't mean you're supposed to go blitzing in, phasers and photons blazing with a disagreement. The whole, "We're going to do this, we know it's wrong, and the Romulans can deal with it later." The Federation in STO bears no resemblance in its acts and how it conducts itself compared to the Federation in the past. You have high ranking admirals openly issuing orders that contradict what the Fedration has mandated for its own people, government, and military forces.
You want to talk about villains? STO's Federation are the true villains.
To be honest, if you dig a little deeper, the Federation wasn't always spotless in the series either.
I mean, the Dominion war - the whole reason that happened basically boils down to this:
Dialouge from the DS9 episdoe "The Jem Hadar":
Third Talak'talan: "Coming through the Anomaly is interference enough. Unless you wish to continue to offend the Dominion, I suggest you stay on your side of the Galaxy."
Dax: "You're making a mistake if you think that detaining Commander Sisko will stop us from exploring the Gamma Quadrant."
I could quote the whole converstation but there isn't much point - it's ALL in that sentence portion of the conversation. The Dominion made it VERY clear that they didn't want the Federation in their territory. Dax's response, which was basically representative of Starfleet's viewpoint, was "get lost - you can't tell us what to do - we'll go where we please".
And what happened next? The (Galaxy class) USS Odyssey gets blown to pieces when they go through the wormhole to check whether or not the Dominion were serious. You REALLY have to wonder what Starfleet Command's response to that must've been?!
Admiral A: Well, lets see - they kidnap a Starfleet Officer, wiped out a colony of Bajorans that had settled on their side and when we sent a ship to establish if their threat about staying out of their space was serious or not they rammed one of our most powerful starships, subsequently destroying it, just to prove a point.
Admiral B: Okay, so they were defintely serious. Lets go violate their space anyway.
And they ended up in a costly war as a result. All because the Dominion said "leave us alone" and the Federation said "no".
I like to think of ourselves as highly missunderstood by the federation but since we are not a part of the federation ours actions do not need explanation or changes top bring us in line with feds way of seeing things.
Here is a link to a old 1996 video game that helps the fed understand the Klingon mindset a little better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3vF9LXZePE
One action by an officer or two does not signify what the entire fleet / governing body's outlook is. Even Sisko's subterfuge to drag the Romulans into the Dominion War, would have gotten him in deep trouble if Starfleet / Federation found out about it, even though it was to the benefit of the overall war effort. Though the war did serve a great purpose in humbling the Federation.
The main gist of this though is this: When you think of how the Federation & Starfleet have acted in general, as a governing and military body, as well as the culture that makes up it, what comes to mind? When you think of how the Klingon Empire has generally acted, as a governing and military body, as well as culture, what do you think of? What do both groups generally represent in Star Trek?
Take all that, and have a good, long, hard look at what Star Trek is in STO, and you will be scratching your heads when it comes to the Federation. The Federation in action and practice in STO is completely unrelated to what was shown in all the TV shows and movies. Even when comparing it to the Federation that has endured terrible wars in its past. And you will still be wondering what the abomination that passes for the "Federation" in STO is.
To be honest, the fact that they are at war with pretty much everyone speaks for itself, irrespective of why those wars started.
Now, if the two groups are at war, that would make them "enemies," yes. But bad guys? No.
Well one of those Doff assignment is Exicute Mutineers. Mutinus Insurection is still and exicuteable offense in modern militaries. If it happens in times of war the CO can shoot the mutineers but will have to face a tribunial to determine if the CO's actions were warrented after hostilities have stoped. The K.D.F. just accept this and show it more often. And Fedy's do have there own mission that dose something similar. Send a crew member to prision becouse it may be a changeling.
So beating up someone who attacked your holdings, lost the fight, broke his vow to his faction, and you give an honorable death to is wrong? But a faction that locks people up in a cell throws away the key refuses to let said prisoner follow his religious and cultural traditions is somehow better? Talk to the prisioner in facitlity 4028 for the K.D.F. side man that guy is depressing.
I do not know what in your mind is Torture but that scene in my interpertation is more like Sisco beating up Garrek to get the truth. This is opposed to Garraks interrigation of Odo, or Pickard interrigation. Never mind that Pickards and Odo's interrigations do not even meet the requirements for true torture, legaly speaking.
They are at war with the other species or those species are tradeing/giveing aid to there enemies. Much like in any war you destroy your opponets ability to make war by hitting its ability to make war materials and supply lines. If the opponet has to get these from other species they become targets as well. Never forget every one is both at War and Peace with the Frengi as it is good for buisness.
These should have been included in the Fedy side as well becouse the fedy's will withhold everything until they get it, and threath that the independant will not last against the K.D.F., Cardassians, or Romulans. Bajor was an example at one point if I recall correctly they wanted the Fedy's to back off of something regarding the wormhole. Fedy response was along the lines of "if you wish us to back off we will leave DS9 but how long will Bajor last once the Federation is not here to protect you from the Cardassian, Klingons, or Romulans. You also had Janeway make a few do this or else negotiations.
I am kinda suprised you missed the Bio weapons Doff missions. These may be the only true "Bad" missions as part of them include testing them, and I generaly find the mission in the Defera Sector.
How meny times threw the series did we see the Federation offer to attempt to help other species only to figureout the solution and not give it quoteing the primedirective becouse it contradicted the decision makers morals. Found a cure for a species that was going to die out but held it back when they decided that another indigenous species would quickly replace it. Refused to give the replacemnet parts to a species becouse they would be used to keep that species addicted to a drug.
How often did the Federation make alliances with others only to hold back there support and even go so far as to help there allies enemy. Klingon Cardassian War jumps out. Giveing industrial replicators to the Cardassians knowing they will be modified to make weapons, and sending Kira along as an advisor to help make defensive plans, as a true Star Fleet officer would be seen as crossing the line to far.
They exploited there good name to flush a group they were neutral to inorder to promote better relations with a power. Thinking of some of the Bajora and Maquis resistance groups.
Nevermind what Sisco and Garak did to get the Romulans to join the fight against the Dominian.
In Game you have the raid against the Romulan Bio-Weapons facility that was actually makeing medicine and reaserching ways to detect the Undine. Never mind the whole attacking the wrong Civilian station first.
Federation Ships constantly pokeing there noises in Romulan Space getting in trubble so you have to rescue them. Citeing a treaty that your opponets claim has been Voided by the Empress.
The Federation attempting to colonise the sectors arround the K.D.F. home sector. Breathing room exploriation to clear them out.
Tribble reaserch and breeding facilities.
The Federation is just nasty when you think about them. You are one of two things to them. You are either part of the Federation or you will be. The K.D.F. if they want you to join they give you an ultimatum join us willingly or prove that you are strong enough to resist us. Heck look at the K.D.F. most joined willingly. The Gorn was realy the only race forced to join. The Federation everyone willingly joined? was it becouse of the rootbeer?
In the end no faction can claim to be the good guys each have there bad parts. When it comes down to it is haveing a couple bad parts that everyone knows about and talks about worse then haveing a lot of questionably bad parts that no one will talk about, and when brought up they become evasive about it? Heck you will get more straight answers out of a Romulan than a Fedy when you bring up the questionable aspects of how things are done.
have you not seen the vast number of "answer challenge" missions??
I execute Doffs who FAIL and lead to the loss of an other doff (yes I keep a list)
so far (out of my multiple kdf captains) this has been
1 bartender
1 assault squad officer
2 Doctors
and an advisor
you should really give the doctors a pardon...it's not so much their fault if a patient dies. If this is standard practise, then you may run out of doctors in your empire.
I mean: If your patient dies...you die, can be good motivation, but most people would just avoid this profession in future.
On topic: I don't see them as the bad guys, the rough guys maybe. But just because a culture is different doen't mean "bad" per se.
going to war with the federation because they suspect an undine infiltration is a valid reason. And that the federation engaged into that is more the evidence that something is wrong among their leaders.
would have loved to see the storyline expand into that in the last 2 years, but nothing!?
I am begining to not trust klingon doctors at all
Actually my GORN Doctor has no such problems
just because Starfleet puts a pleasant face on it doesn't mean the federation is any more ethical than even the Romulans.
Untrue. Everyone learns something from that death. As for who is the bad guy? That is nothing more than dichotomous propaganda meant to support and promote Federation Imperialism.
Root beer.
I take the Klingons on TNG, DS9 and VOY as the "proper" ones, therefore i do not consider them enemies or bad guys, even now i always refuse to do any kind of action against them, and i personally think that Cryptyc does not gives a darn about them and just wanted to make a "big bad guy" that could ring a bell about ST to the casual person.
I only have a FED toon as i only wanted to have a Federation character, however my brother has both a FED and a KDF, the KDF being his main, and we always play together PvE and stuff.
The Federation on the other hand seems to have big issues sticking to it's guns with regards to their own moral code. Section 31 seems far more "visible" in this era, and it appears little has been done to get rid of them. The Federation seems quite happy to have an organization acting on it's behalf doing things it can't be seen to be doing itself and claiming plausible deniability, which is hypocritical.
Then look at the blatant violations of Romulan Space. As others have mentioned, you as the player, will either embark on several incursions, or follow up several incursions. In pre-emptive strike, you lead a fleet into Romulan Space and attack it. I'm not sure what the crew compliment of a D'deridex is, but the death toll would've been in the thousands upon thousands, and all because of a bungled Starfleet Intelligence op that needed strong-arming back into shape. These blatant acts of war pretty much demonstrate that the Federation has far less respect for other cultures and it's treaties with them than it claims. In fact the majority of the Romulan arc has Starfleet as the aggressor with only the flimsiest pretence of justification.
And the Undine: The Klingon Empire saw the Undine threat and acted, and the Federation Condemned them. Then in "Diplomatic Orders" the Klingons warn the Feds that Ambassador what's-his-name is an Undine, they are ignored, but proven right. Then, back to those merry little jaunts across the neutral zone, an Undine tricks the Feds into attacking what basicly amounts to a medical research and supply station.
Now, in "Redemption", Picard was told he couldn't do anything because the Klingon Civil War was an internal matter. However, you get pretty deep into the internal matters of the Federation's favourite whipping post, the Romulans. Now, we could justify this by saying it's because they're being manipulated by the Iconians, but isn't this precisely the behaviour they condemned their own allies for?
The Klingon Empire is what it is, accepts it, and embraces it. The Federation says one thing, does another, and seems totally in denial about the kind of values it really holds true. I could go on about holograms/sentience, the FF trait being inherantly racist etc, but in all honesty, I don't think I need to go much further to justify a whole hearted TRIBBLE THE FEDERATION! :mad:
A side note: Regarding Starfleet going into the Gamma Quadrant and being told not to prior to the Oddysey getting smacked about, one thing to bear in mind is that the Idran system and much of the surrounding area isn't actually Dominion Space, or at least wasn't at the time. It'd be like somebody coming up to you in the street and in spite of not owning it, telling you to keep off of it. Still, you'd think having Curzon as a previous host would've allowed Dax to phrase her reply a little more diplomaticly.:rolleyes:
QA'PLA
They were such a nice bunch of folks that they were on bring of extinction before Kaless arrives and profetise them the true way of the warrior...
but that is a different story in the main Star Trek Univers STO ins't concerned by those trival stuff right ?
Undines ruin everything.
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Klingons are people too. Some of them are quicker-tempered than others, some truly believe in the code of honor, while others involve themselves in house intrigue worthy of the Italian Renaissance.
I justify high-ranking Gorn in the Empire based on both Klingons' respect of might-of-arms and the opportunistic Gorn's ability to do a bit of wheeling and dealing themselves.
The Klingon-based dialogue is amusing sometimes when your first officer is an Orion girl
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I agree with other posters about the Federation -- the bureaucracy is looking a little tattered around the edges and a good deal of questionable things are being done in the name of "there's a war on."
If I'd known more about STO, I wouldn't have rolled a Vulcan. She's turning out to be rather bent in a cold and calculating way. Sort of a throw-back to their warlike past.
But again, what kind of a game is that. Not very interesting.
As for the Klingons themselves, no, I don't think they are bad guys. Yes they have some morally questionable actions, by federation standard, but these things are treated differently in a warrior culture like the Empire, and one should not apply "Federation" Morals to them.
Klingons do have an ethical standard and do adhere to it. Truth be known, they are trying to protect the quadrant from an invasion no one else seems to notice or care about, not exactly the stuff of villainy.
It is a warlike culture, has been since TOS. The Klingons have always been who they say they were.
Unlike the duplicity of the Federation in STO.
I also agree that the Klingons seem to actually stand by their cultural values. So, I guess the question is answered: No, they are not.
So let me ask a different question: If the Klingons (who are supposed to have a Star Empire somewhere out there already in 2012
it is more likely that qo'nos will be taken over by the Federation in this game, with all "factions" relegated to outposts of Starfleet.
any hypothetical discussion of "occupation" in a real world sense would be too dangerously close to controversial political issues, and so I would not want to comment here.
perhaps a better discussion on ds9.
As long as there's conflict there will always be those who are prepared to do what's necessary to survive and despite the claims, I doubt that part of humanity will ever go away because it's just worked too well in the past to drop it in the name of niceness.
If anything I find the STO depiction of Starfleet much less corrupted than the TV series depiction, but then I always did want to see a little realism in my Star Trek and STO brings that by the spade full. The idea that this monolithic, Human dominated political entity could survive purely on niceness and happy thoughts irritated me to no end, in STO they don't survive through niceness but instead through the willingness to use force to further their aims. It may seem less Star Trek but it's definitely more realistic.
The Klingon's will always have an advantage in appearing to stick to their cultural values because they dominate their Empire (it is theirs, after all) and control it; it speaks for them whereas the Federation has over 150 member worlds and despite the happy thoughts I doubt they all agree.
I live in the UK, we have four main constituents, England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. On nationwide discussions there's very rarely agreement, yet we're all the same so the thought that 150 alien races could agree on anything, let alone remain agreed upon anything over a long period of time is not something I could ever see happening.
I would see them as the bad guys, but then the conquered will rarely be happy to be conquered. Even so there values are entirely alien to ours so of course I'd see them as bad.
I'd be more interested to see how they'd have got on with Human's of an earlier age, perhaps of the 16th and 17th centuries where the punishments that you mentioned were still commonplace in Europe and the military classes hadn't yet formalised codes of conduct in combat, resulting in massacres that are much less frequent now. I'm not so sure they'd have found the Klingon's as distasteful as modern 21st century Humans would find them.
A very good assesment and nicely put.
And I strongly agree.
I do agree that even the uncompromised federation need to learn to be less dishonest or less hypocritical, though. Or both.