Meh.
had an idea for a whole post reflecting on the human condition and why we as a species enjoy watching ourselves in entertainment, how any bussiness will always chase the revenue stream that feeds thier bottom line the best, or how ones fandom leads to narrow focus and elitism and that such an outlook is both hurting STO and could lift it up to be a MMO of game-changing proportions, or how I actually beielve the Cryptic has the desire to see the KDF and other factions fully represented in STO if not the capability to achieve it, but meh is all I can muster after 2 years of the same excuses, reasonings and xenofactionphobic attitudes of some of the playerbase and Cryptic as a company.
If some of the feds fanbase cannot let go their own desires to see STO grow beyond just being an online Federation game thats fine. They have always held the IP too tightly and sought too much meaning within it to give themselves purpose and placement and disliked all things not of thier own kin.
Thats fine as I enjoy the Klingon representation in Star Trek for many of the same reasons and hold to it just as tightly in a simliar fashion.
Its is a shame though that STO could not be something more than another federation game and show the whole story.
I understand the need fro Cryptic to be a bussiness first and foremost, to chase the revenue stream that Federation fans offer and make profit as so many other companies have over the decades. Its a proven means of making money and the fans are always more than willing to spend on something they enjoy.
The path to least resistance to profit comes first and one must put resources to achieve that becuase at teh end of the day the Board of Directors cares little for fandom and only sees things in profit and loss.
Still a shame that STO could not be more than a means to income and set new standards to what a MMO could be.
but frankly after so long seeing this same arguement unfold and the same reasons given as to the why, I just don't care anymore. Meh.
I understand the need fro Cryptic to be a bussiness first and foremost, to chase the revenue stream that Federation fans offer and make profit as so many other companies have over the decades. Its a proven means of making money and the fans are always more than willing to spend on something they enjoy.
It's a lame excuse they continue to give. The Klingon Dictionary sells pretty well. Klingons have a large, dedicated fan base. And this game, to meet the standards the Devs apparently have set for themselves, needs two functional factions for "end-game."
It doesn't have that.
So it's not a healthy game. Continuing to ignore that gaping problem isn't going to make the game healthy.
Juggle resources all you want no matter who's the EP ... but at the end of the quarter, the game still is found to be lacking and has the same problems that prompted it to go Free to Play and get sold anyways.
but frankly after so long seeing this same arguement unfold and the same reasons given as to the why, I just don't care anymore. Meh.
For me, this thread is absolutely the death of the KDF in STO. I agree about not having much care for the topic anymore. It's just more spin and emptiness from the same untrustworthy source who's track record has already been judged to be lacking.
It's a lame excuse they continue to give. The Klingon Dictionary sells pretty well. Klingons have a large, dedicated fan base. And this game, to meet the standards the Devs apparently have set for themselves, needs two functional factions for "end-game."
Where is that stated? Nowhere.
Clearly Cryptic is in a better place to analyse their metrics for how much time is spent on XYZ and where it makes economical sense to direct their limited resources. It couldn't be less relevant how much or little the Klingon Dictionary sells, it has zero impact on STO and relevance to the performance of STO.
Do you have numbers to backup the "large, dedicated fanbase" claims in relation to STO?
I don't really want to see it, but this is the curse of D'stahl, yet again rearing its ugly head.
Q: "When can we expect the KDF to be finished?"
A: "That's something we'd love to see, and PW is behind the idea!"
Q: "When can we expect real exploration?"
A: "That's something we'd really love to see in the future. We've been discussing it."
Q: "When can we see the Romulan faction?"
A: "Well, we'll need to have the Klingons fleshed out first."
In the end, nothing comes of this wishful thinking, beyond a temporary survival of hope for a better future, with the pvpers, foundry authors, and everyone else grasping at straws of hope for a better future. Meanwhile, the EP, when he actually thinks like an EP (unlike in interviews), makes tough decisions about how to prioritize resources, realizing that only 1 or 2 things can actually be done, half-baked in the end anyways.
But hey, "Yes. We are very excited about PW's support for X, Y, or Z. It's something we are debating."
Meanwhile, behind the scenes is actually, "So, what can this small team actually do by this date?" "Man, I wish I had the manpower of my local Starbucks."
Thank you for that very amusing parody !
LoLz were had aplenty .
However ...
"We've decided that the KDF is simply not worth it, and there is nothing we can do about that. Maybe we'll throw them a few bones, but otherwise expect us to focus on THIS instead."
I'll require your imagination for a second .
Imagine if you will a baloon -- the type of long baloon that baloon-animals are made of .
Now , imagine one end of such a baloon swollen .
THAT is "Level 50" or End Game if you preffer .
And that is where (according to Dan) , most players are located .
Remember the rest of the game / baloon ?
That is where most of the players are NOT located .
So , if we'll use the proverbial "needs of the many..." -- where should Cryptic focus ?
On the tube portion of the baloon , or the swolen part at the end ?
Also I wanted to add that I'm very sorry that you veiw (or present a view) of an "all or nothing" as far as the KDF is concerned , just because you (and the Nagus and others) are not able to draw a clear plan/promise out from Cryptic on the subject of the KDF .
Sooner or later we will get the proverbial "we will continue to add KDF content from time to time" from Cryptic , and that will have to do ... -- either if it will be true or not .
And it would also help if you realised that Cryptic have put themselfs into this position -- in regards to the need for End Game content , simply by speeding up leveling and FORCING the majoroty of the playerbase to Level 51 .
If you understand that , then you'll also understand that Cryptic is no longer Making A Choice (as in End Game VS KDF) .
That choice no longer exists BECAUSE of the forced leveling .
Clearly Cryptic is in a better place to analyse their metrics for how much time is spent on XYZ and where it makes economical sense to direct their limited resources.
The company's history and timeline would not back up that statement. It's been sold three times. And continues to be a small studio that can't generate profit.
It couldn't be less relevant how much or little the Klingon Dictionary sells, it has zero impact on STO and relevance to the performance of STO.
The Klingon Dictionary was used as an example to indicate that the Klingons have a strong and successful fanbase among Trek fans. Do you deny this?
Do you have numbers to backup the "large, dedicated fanbase" claims in relation to STO?
Here's my deal: I'll give out my numbers only after Cryptic gives out actual numbers first.
After listening to the Gates of Stovokor interview, and reading up on dstahl's recent posts, I'm becoming more and more convinced that Mr. Stahl has the best intentions and is trying his best to see them through for the game.
Did STO launch in a bad way? Sure did. But, Dan knows this (as he's said it) and is trying to move forward with things so as to make that a distant memory for everyone. To me it sounds like he was moving things along when 'a wrench was thrown in the works' so to speak with a shift in priorities with f2p and then his departure for Zynga. Now he's back and is trying to get things on track while keeping CBS, PWE, the Cryptic team, and us happy.
I've certainly taken my swings at Cryptic, but I'm going to cut Dan some slack here. He's back and I'm seeing stuff start to trickle out. More new content has been shipped since the new year than the months prior to it, and it very much coincides with Dan's return. I very much know things are moving in a more positive direction as the proof of it is now in my logs on my characters as content I've played through.
Just keep your head down, Dan. Don't want you to get nailed by an empty Bloodwine bottle!
If you understand that , then you'll also understand that Cryptic is no longer Making A Choice (as in End Game VS KDF) .
Let's talk track record, MMOs and end-game expectations from hardcore MMO players ...
When people think end-game in an MMO they oftentimes imagine things like raids. Dragons. World of Warcraft. Stuff like that.
Cryptic is a company that designed Hamidon. A large growing single celled blob. As an end-game encounter in its very first game. Cryptic is the company that has designed STFs, and redesigned them twice.
Their track record with the standards of MMO end-game is almost as bad as their track record with Klingon development. I'd say the only thing they've done worse than end-game development in STO is crafting development.
So here the game sits ... 2 years in ... with a raiding structure that is a half-hearted attempt, a loot drop rate that even the devs can barely say "roll the dice" with a straight face, and a series of half-done gameplay mechanics ranging from the Genesis exploration system to the Diplomacy system to the DOFF system.
And now you all think END-GAME is the solution?
Look at what they've made so far. And compare that to all the other End-Games in the industry.
Yeah. Confidence and Inspiration has been instilled! amirite?
Like I said, this is another empty promise. Deflecting the continued criticism of their failure to develop a second faction, something pretty standard in a lot of MMOs, to give you all hope on some other aspect of gameplay that they've never been able to deliver on before either.
Good luck trekkers. You're going to need it as the game boldly stumbles into mechanics cryptic has never developed before!
Getting back to what was said, I will give you my interpretation:
I feel sorry for you that you took the time to write all that, because Dan's earlier posts directly contradict it. Your long post basically just makes the point that it didnt make financial sense to finish the KDF, while his posts have simply stated that different people at PW wanted different things. Hence my question: why were we ONLY told what the "one guy" wanted(a full KDF faction) up until this point?
All PWE wants is money. They made the game F2P and the best way they can get money is through the C-Store. I have a feeling that's where the majority of the effort is going to go. Sure, we'll see updates and so on but they'll be linked in one way or another to the C-Store and anything we get in-game will be just a taste of something that we can get a more powerful version of through the C-Store. (We've already seen this with the Odyssey and the Klingon Flagship.).
In the end, exactly what we get will depend on where PWE sees the dollar signs. Will the money put into a full Klingon faction make them more money than it costs? Or will they decide it's better to have Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians are 'Monster Play' factions and sell players of those factions power-ups on the C-Store in the form of Play2Win ships and items in order to better hold out against the majority of the players running Starfleet? We'll have to see.
FTA: While the fact that more people tend to play on the Federation side only is often discussed by players, we learned that only 18% of all STO players have made a Klingon -- this number was surprising and disappointing because there have been many updates to the "red" side since launch.
So less than a fifth of players by late July 2011 had even rolled a KDF toon. Course that does not mean actively playing KDF.. That just means taking a few minutes one day to make a toon. Less than a fifth of the population...
All PWE wants is money. They made the game F2P and the best way they can get money is through the C-Store.
I'll disagree with 2 things here:
1: PWE didn't make the game FTP. Cryptic started converting to FTP before PWE purchased them. They saw that CO was doing better with FTP and decided to do that with STO too.
2: While PWE wants money, even more then PWE wanting the money is the fact that the people who buy PWE stock want money via dividends. Based on the year-end financials Perfect World made $162 million in profit this year and will have paid out around $156 million of it to shareholders - people like you and I who bought the stock.
So while there's greed involved it ultimately goes all the way down to you and I. Every time we buy stock, or put money in an IRA or 401k we are essentially being greedy in that we want our money to grow. We don't care how our money grows. We just want it to make more money.
PW would have preferred the KDF remain "monster play" and that they mainly focus on end game PvP content. So which is it?
The answer is obvious...
Nowhere would "Pay To Win" be more profitable than in a PVP oriented game... Someone gets their butt kicked, they're mad about it so they go to the C-Store and get that more powerful ship thinking it will make a difference. It's easier to get people to part with more money quickly if they are emotional, and there's nothing more emotional in the game than PVP.
FTA: While the fact that more people tend to play on the Federation side only is often discussed by players, we learned that only 18% of all STO players have made a Klingon -- this number was surprising and disappointing because there have been many updates to the "red" side since launch.
So less than a fifth of players by late July 2011 had even rolled a KDF toon. Course that does not mean actively playing KDF.. That just means taking a few minutes one day to make a toon. Less than a fifth of the population...
there was no content for KDF at that time.
Not many ships. Costume variety. Couldn't leave the Qu'nos sector. No missions. No Tutorial. Nebula's just started to work. Nothing to do end game. I am suprised it wasn't lower than that.
In any other MMO, it would have been.
Nowhere would "Pay To Win" be more profitable than in a PVP oriented game... Someone gets their butt kicked, they're mad about it so they go to the C-Store and get that more powerful ship thinking it will make a difference. It's easier to get people to part with more money quickly if they are emotional, and there's nothing more emotional in the game than PVP.
So sad....
Yes. Cstore ships are useless without pvp.
If this pvp update in season 6 is the most awesome update of all time, it doesn't change the fact that if cryptic doesn't have any confidence in the kdf faction, they can't expect anyone else to.
Who who are the feds going to pvp againts?
Where is that stated? Nowhere.
Clearly Cryptic is in a better place to analyse their metrics for how much time is spent on XYZ and where it makes economical sense to direct their limited resources. It couldn't be less relevant how much or little the Klingon Dictionary sells, it has zero impact on STO and relevance to the performance of STO.
Do you have numbers to backup the "large, dedicated fanbase" claims in relation to STO?
Like this guy^ who evidently thinks all the Klingon based CoSplay, Klingon books, Klingon games (like Klingon monopoly) and other paraphenalia that has been made and sold over the years must be just another synthahol induced fantasy.
He must be right after all, who has actually seen a person dressed as a Klingon at any convention, or read these books that exist, or tried to follow the Mok'bara as a real martail arts, crafted actual metal bathleths, or ever seen teh Klingons referenced in popular social culture in TV shows like Frazier or Big Bang Theory, or seen the Opera's and plays that have been produced and funded by these imaginary fans.
No one actually speaks the Klingon langauge, surely its just all guttaral noises with no sense to it (http://youtu.be/LBtj4WoC6XA) or even bothers to have an impact on society in a positive way through charitable outreach.
Much less any fan club that is suppossed to exist iether here in the United States or the world as a whole
Africa
South Africa
KIDC - Klingon Imperial Diplomatic Corps
Asia
India
KIDC - Klingon Imperial Diplomatic Corps
Japan
KAI - Klingon Armada International
KAG - Klingon Assault Group
KIDC - Klingon Imperial Diplomatic Corps
Come on now Roach, you should know better than to post proof in an argument on the internet. It'll just be dismissed because it doesn't fit someones narrow point of view.
Come on now Roach, you should know better than to post proof in an argument on the internet. It'll just be dismissed because it doesn't fit someones narrow point of view.
Evidently I am a glutton for punishment....
or so my therapist and Donimatrix keep telling me.
10 percent play kdf now and look at the attention they get
imagine what attention the romulans would get when their population is now at 0?
you don't want cryptic to touch them.
Something>Nothing
I'd rather see a Romulan faction that's incomplete than a Romulan faction that doesn't exist, in just the same way that every Klingon I've asked would rather see their current faction than see their current faction scrapped.
Have a level playing field, as in only one valid faction.
Have the pvp happen between fleets.
No real brainfart possible there.
So what is the point of different Federation fleets fighting among each other when there is a "war" going on multiple fronts? If that is the road the Federation is on, Civil War, then it dederves to fall to any power that challenges it.
As for those that say that Fleet Bases should be tied to territory control: I am not going to say that it is a bad idea, I just have a concern. I run a young, small fleet. There is no way my fleet would be able to compete against a larger, more established fleet. I will absolutely refuse to sink any currency into something that can be taken away from me by an overly agressive fleet. Also there are fleets that are role play or PvE centric that do not PvP. If it is set up in a fassion where fleets can opt out of open PvP, then I am all for it. I am not against PvP, I just don't prefer it.
Let's talk track record, MMOs and end-game expectations from hardcore MMO players ...
Can't I'm afraid ... , as STO is my first and only MMO .
Cryptic is the company that has designed STFs, and redesigned them twice.
As that is the single type of content that I regularly repeat (and have repeated before the S.5 transformation to a grind fest) -- I can hardly "blame" them for it .
What I do blame them for is the quantity .
1-2 new STF's per year should not be out of reach for them .
Same with PVP maps .
Same with KDF missions .
And now you all think END-GAME is the solution?
Actually I have not seen many say that , but that's not the point .
There are two points I'd like to make :
- Contrary to what Cryptic say about "F2P = players coming / going" , something has made "player retention" a priority .
Could be the numbers that are leaving due to a weak End Game .
Could be that after the initial "influx" of new players has died down , the numbers show that not that many buy end game gear for not much of an endgame .
- I would also like some ppl to look beyond S.6 .
Some ppl here react as if S.6 is the last straw , the last chance the KDF has .
I don't understand this reaction .
Is it an emotional stance based on how jaded some ppl feel ?
If so , it's perfectly understandable on one hand , and baffeling on the other . I mean what about S.7 or 8 or 9 ?
And just to be candid , I'm not happy with the Starbases bit for S.6 .
But I'm willing to accept that a large portion of Dev time is going into something I do not care for , into something I see as pointless .
But I am tentatively pleased that there may be a new STF coming this year , as well as new PVP maps/tech , after S.6 is implemented .
So it's not all doom & gloom for me , even as I too have a belly full of complaints .
Look at what they've made so far. And compare that to all the other End-Games in the industry.
I'll take D'Angelo's statement on this in regards to TOR .
He said he does not plan to compete .
And he was right .
Cryptic does not have the resources of Blizzard/WOW and/or whoever makes TOR .
It's logical to make the best with what you have .
At the same time , it's also logical to observe the behavior of Cryptic , and compare it to "leadership by committee" . Too many ideas , too few ppl to carry them out .
So what is the point of different Federation fleets fighting among each other when there is a "war" going on multiple fronts? If that is the road the Federation is on, Civil War, then it dederves to fall to any power that challenges it.
This has been brought up every time someone wants to merge the Factions and end the war. IE, that players can do "war game" scenarios to represent PvP.
As for those that say that Fleet Bases should be tied to territory control: I am not going to say that it is a bad idea, I just have a concern. I run a young, small fleet. There is no way my fleet would be able to compete against a larger, more established fleet. I will absolutely refuse to sink any currency into something that can be taken away from me by an overly agressive fleet. Also there are fleets that are role play or PvE centric that do not PvP. If it is set up in a fassion where fleets can opt out of open PvP, then I am all for it. I am not against PvP, I just don't prefer it.
Hoepfully there will be a basis to buy an Non-combat or a combat starbase, or both.
My main federation character is in a fleet with one active player (myself) because the other 30 or so left the game between 2010 and 2011.
How's that going to work out?
I won't even mention my KDF character, since your system doesn't include the KDF.
That is not an issue the devs have anything to do with.
Recruit new members, or join another fleet. Just don't hope, or even wait, for cryptic to bring the Klingon side en par with the Federation.
(It keeps customers from asking questions like: Why is the Klingon side restricted to KDF, when there is a whole set of factions/families/clans/... within the Klingon society alone, not to mention the other members ...)
Like this guy^ who evidently thinks all the Klingon based CoSplay, Klingon books, Klingon games (like Klingon monopoly) and other paraphenalia that has been made and sold over the years must be just another synthahol induced fantasy.
He must be right after all, who has actually seen a person dressed as a Klingon at any convention, or read these books that exist, or tried to follow the Mok'bara as a real martail arts, crafted actual metal bathleths, or ever seen teh Klingons referenced in popular social culture in TV shows like Frazier or Big Bang Theory, or seen the Opera's and plays that have been produced and funded by these imaginary fans.
No one actually speaks the Klingon langauge, surely its just all guttaral noises with no sense to it (http://youtu.be/LBtj4WoC6XA) or even bothers to have an impact on society in a positive way through charitable outreach.
Much less any fan club that is suppossed to exist iether here in the United States or the world as a whole
<truncated>
Haven't you paid attention, SuperChum? Its all a fantasy without the federation stamp of aproval.
And yet not one Star Trek movie or series about Klingons
But in all seriousness... your point is very well taken. However, until we start seeing more KDF players in-game, Klingon fans won't be influencing development of the game, sadly.
PWE wants a healthy game, but different individuals have different opinions. Some would argue that a healthy 2 faction pvp game should be the goal, while others may argue having a full level 1-51 experience for KDF would be another goal. At the end of the day, Cryptic has to decide how we spend our manpower and address the long term health of the game (which is what everyone at Cryptic/PW is ultimately watching over).
So Cryptic has approached the healthy game target with different options and right now that option is focus on End Game because nearly everyone is Level 51 so any effort there benefits everyone and the long term health of the game the most. If we can do more, we will.
One of Many Important Excerpts from the Dan Stahl interview with Gates of StoVoKor:
Soriedem: "The best advice that we can offer to Klingon fans is to be patient. It's coming."
Dan Stahl: "Eventually, yeah. We can get there, and it's slowly but surely."
I am a Klingon player with several characters at Level 51 (and several Fed characters maxed as well) plus shoulder like others the responsibilities that come with trying to keep a fleet healthy and alive.
The biggest complaint that crosses my flight path on a near daily basis are players (myself included) who want different things to do than the simple rehash and rerunning grind of the STFs.
When we were going into our interview with DStahl, I as a Klingon player wanted to know what was going to be done to make us start at level one.
Then I walked away realizing something ... What good is it to start at level one if we are going to lose those same players at level 51 just because they grow board with the game ... not having new and exciting things to do.
I have to side with the EP on this one as my Klingon wants healthy activity to keep him fit in the old age of his existence within the game.
And we have been seeing new content rolling out beyond the featured episode ... and this isn't even touching on spoken of plans to revamp PvP, Foundry as well as add in new game assets for fleets ... like Starbases*
jIQochbe'. I agree. Yes, I would like to start at level 1 as a Klingon and work my way up, without ever touching a Fed if that's how a player wants to play, but we have to think about things realistically. Cryptic is a business, and they feel it is in their best interest in the short-term to keep those level 51 players active and logged on by adding more Level 51 content, so that we have more to do than just grind STFs, rerun dailies and farm dilithium. Along the way they can, and will, release KDF-only stand alone missions to help fill the gap, such as the new KDF mission Alpha.
We want the KDF to be a full faction, and we want it today. We want more End Game PvE, and we want it today. We want more PvP content, and we want it today. We want more Foundry updates, and we want it today. We want the world and we want it now.
We have to be patient. They are working on it, and they were already working on KDF content before F2P got in the way. If you listened to the Dan Stahl interview with Gates of StoVoKor, you heard him say they have a working Klingon tutorial. It just needs some polish. They were working on KDF before re-focusing on F2P. Now they will focus on End Game content like Fleet Starbases and PvP for both factions. I want them to focus on Klingon content and I want them to focus on the Foundry, but I understand this is a product of a business and they have to do what they feel is good for business both short term and long term.
That is why I left my sub lapse as of yesterday. It had really sadden me to yank my credit card, being here since day one of BETA and all.... But it seems KDF will never be what I was always hopping for it to be. Two years latter and the red side is still a truncated dangling side spin off of federation play (*plays Sith from Level 1...)
I can only hope to see near future change in KDF, I love Star Trek a lot more than the other "star" franchise and want to come back home (to STO)
While many in the Star Trek / STO community may not be aware, or may even choose to deny, there really is a large Klingon fanbase out there. Sadly, I have spoken to many hardcore Klingon fans who either left STO or never even joined it, due to the reality that the Klingons are not a full faction, not well-represented in STO in terms of the amount of gameplay content, and the amount of unique storyline content.
As Roach has pointed out (majQa'! Well done!) there are numerous international Klingon fanclubs out there who dress as Klingons, create Klingon personae, assemble in groups we call fleets and ships, and go to conventions and do charity work such as Toys For Tots, Red Cross blood drives, canned food drives, etc. I know many of them would happily use STO for their fleet meetings and activities (instead of using Second Life as many do) if they felt that the Klingon faction were a fleshed out faction that provided a more robust Klingon experience with more Klingon missions, more Klingon story, more Klingon customization etc. Perhaps someday STO will be able to provide that, and on that day, more Klingon fans will make STO the foundation of their Klingon fan clubs and the destination of choice to express and share their love for the Klingon culture.
Cryptic killed the KDF faction by killing KDF design shortly before launch. Read Peregrine Falcon's log of the KDF development timeline. The reason KDF "will never have a major fan-base following" is for this simple fact: People get attached to their characters. These are MMOs and most times the character is a digital extension of the player. When people aren't presented with the choice at the character's inception but rather later, they won't choose to abandon their main character to start over because of the time already invested. This is the reason KDF never took off. Had the choice existed from the beginning such as to play Horde or Alliance, Jedi or Sith, etc, then a far different landscape would be painted and we would not be hold this discussion.
Many here are blaming PWE and/or Cryptic for the past and current status of the KDF faction. Perhaps they do deserve some of the blame, but frankly from everything I've seen since before beta, I would ultimately blame Atari or whoever set the initial release deadline.
There was a firm launch window, and Cryptic had to release when they did. If they had another year or two to develop the game before release, they would have been able to launch with two full factions, but they had to launch when they did; and that meant launching with an unfinished KDF (which at that time was just PvP Monster Play). Other MMOs have pre-launch development of 4 to 5 years, sometimes more; while STO had barely a year or two before launching -- sure, they had the core Cryptic Engine already, but that engine needed to be updated, and content needed to be created.
We are still feeling, and lamenting, the affect of that early launch in many ways. The most notable affect is the lack of Klingon content compared to Federation content. The KDF faction has come a long way, and there is still a long way to go, but after recent interviews with Dan Stahl by Gates of StoVoKor and Tribbles in Ecstasy (I was involved in both) as well as other dev comments (both on and off the record) I have a much better feeling about the future of the KDF faction.
Should we stop calling for more KDF content? ghobe'! No! We should continue to let them know we want more Klingon content; but at the same time we should remember these are real people doing a job for a business. We should not attack them on a personal level and always throw mud (or worse) at them. When we do speak critically about the game, we should offer constructive criticism and give examples of what we want to see, not just lament what we do not see.
tlhIngan vIttlhegh: mataHmeH maSachnIS. Klingon proverb: To survive, we must expand. The Klingon Way: A Warrior's Guide, p.11
This has been brought up every time someone wants to merge the Factions and end the war. IE, that players can do "war game" scenarios to represent PvP.
Out of curiuosity, wargames to hone our skills against what future foe?
The NPC elements that exist? To what gain? We will never prevail against them as they are a very static part of teh storyline.
For bragging rights of the individual? Seems kinda shallow to foster such an enviroment.
Such a setting as one faction and the idea of PvP wargames is not going to bring any revenue from the Cstore, imo. Who would spend Cpoints or good money to buy an attempt at adding an advantage for an aspect of the game that only has bragging rights for the victor?
Why would one play?
Comments
had an idea for a whole post reflecting on the human condition and why we as a species enjoy watching ourselves in entertainment, how any bussiness will always chase the revenue stream that feeds thier bottom line the best, or how ones fandom leads to narrow focus and elitism and that such an outlook is both hurting STO and could lift it up to be a MMO of game-changing proportions, or how I actually beielve the Cryptic has the desire to see the KDF and other factions fully represented in STO if not the capability to achieve it, but meh is all I can muster after 2 years of the same excuses, reasonings and xenofactionphobic attitudes of some of the playerbase and Cryptic as a company.
If some of the feds fanbase cannot let go their own desires to see STO grow beyond just being an online Federation game thats fine. They have always held the IP too tightly and sought too much meaning within it to give themselves purpose and placement and disliked all things not of thier own kin.
Thats fine as I enjoy the Klingon representation in Star Trek for many of the same reasons and hold to it just as tightly in a simliar fashion.
Its is a shame though that STO could not be something more than another federation game and show the whole story.
I understand the need fro Cryptic to be a bussiness first and foremost, to chase the revenue stream that Federation fans offer and make profit as so many other companies have over the decades. Its a proven means of making money and the fans are always more than willing to spend on something they enjoy.
The path to least resistance to profit comes first and one must put resources to achieve that becuase at teh end of the day the Board of Directors cares little for fandom and only sees things in profit and loss.
Still a shame that STO could not be more than a means to income and set new standards to what a MMO could be.
but frankly after so long seeing this same arguement unfold and the same reasons given as to the why, I just don't care anymore. Meh.
It's a lame excuse they continue to give. The Klingon Dictionary sells pretty well. Klingons have a large, dedicated fan base. And this game, to meet the standards the Devs apparently have set for themselves, needs two functional factions for "end-game."
It doesn't have that.
So it's not a healthy game. Continuing to ignore that gaping problem isn't going to make the game healthy.
Juggle resources all you want no matter who's the EP ... but at the end of the quarter, the game still is found to be lacking and has the same problems that prompted it to go Free to Play and get sold anyways.
For me, this thread is absolutely the death of the KDF in STO. I agree about not having much care for the topic anymore. It's just more spin and emptiness from the same untrustworthy source who's track record has already been judged to be lacking.
Where is that stated? Nowhere.
Clearly Cryptic is in a better place to analyse their metrics for how much time is spent on XYZ and where it makes economical sense to direct their limited resources. It couldn't be less relevant how much or little the Klingon Dictionary sells, it has zero impact on STO and relevance to the performance of STO.
Do you have numbers to backup the "large, dedicated fanbase" claims in relation to STO?
Thank you for that very amusing parody !
LoLz were had aplenty .
However ...
I'll require your imagination for a second .
Imagine if you will a baloon -- the type of long baloon that baloon-animals are made of .
Now , imagine one end of such a baloon swollen .
THAT is "Level 50" or End Game if you preffer .
And that is where (according to Dan) , most players are located .
Remember the rest of the game / baloon ?
That is where most of the players are NOT located .
So , if we'll use the proverbial "needs of the many..." -- where should Cryptic focus ?
On the tube portion of the baloon , or the swolen part at the end ?
Also I wanted to add that I'm very sorry that you veiw (or present a view) of an "all or nothing" as far as the KDF is concerned , just because you (and the Nagus and others) are not able to draw a clear plan/promise out from Cryptic on the subject of the KDF .
Sooner or later we will get the proverbial "we will continue to add KDF content from time to time" from Cryptic , and that will have to do ... -- either if it will be true or not .
And it would also help if you realised that Cryptic have put themselfs into this position -- in regards to the need for End Game content , simply by speeding up leveling and FORCING the majoroty of the playerbase to Level 51 .
If you understand that , then you'll also understand that Cryptic is no longer Making A Choice (as in End Game VS KDF) .
That choice no longer exists BECAUSE of the forced leveling .
The company's history and timeline would not back up that statement. It's been sold three times. And continues to be a small studio that can't generate profit.
The Klingon Dictionary was used as an example to indicate that the Klingons have a strong and successful fanbase among Trek fans. Do you deny this?
Here's my deal: I'll give out my numbers only after Cryptic gives out actual numbers first.
...situation is always, fluid.
After listening to the Gates of Stovokor interview, and reading up on dstahl's recent posts, I'm becoming more and more convinced that Mr. Stahl has the best intentions and is trying his best to see them through for the game.
Did STO launch in a bad way? Sure did. But, Dan knows this (as he's said it) and is trying to move forward with things so as to make that a distant memory for everyone. To me it sounds like he was moving things along when 'a wrench was thrown in the works' so to speak with a shift in priorities with f2p and then his departure for Zynga. Now he's back and is trying to get things on track while keeping CBS, PWE, the Cryptic team, and us happy.
I've certainly taken my swings at Cryptic, but I'm going to cut Dan some slack here. He's back and I'm seeing stuff start to trickle out. More new content has been shipped since the new year than the months prior to it, and it very much coincides with Dan's return. I very much know things are moving in a more positive direction as the proof of it is now in my logs on my characters as content I've played through.
Just keep your head down, Dan. Don't want you to get nailed by an empty Bloodwine bottle!
Let's talk track record, MMOs and end-game expectations from hardcore MMO players ...
When people think end-game in an MMO they oftentimes imagine things like raids. Dragons. World of Warcraft. Stuff like that.
Cryptic is a company that designed Hamidon. A large growing single celled blob. As an end-game encounter in its very first game. Cryptic is the company that has designed STFs, and redesigned them twice.
Their track record with the standards of MMO end-game is almost as bad as their track record with Klingon development. I'd say the only thing they've done worse than end-game development in STO is crafting development.
So here the game sits ... 2 years in ... with a raiding structure that is a half-hearted attempt, a loot drop rate that even the devs can barely say "roll the dice" with a straight face, and a series of half-done gameplay mechanics ranging from the Genesis exploration system to the Diplomacy system to the DOFF system.
And now you all think END-GAME is the solution?
Look at what they've made so far. And compare that to all the other End-Games in the industry.
Yeah. Confidence and Inspiration has been instilled! amirite?
Like I said, this is another empty promise. Deflecting the continued criticism of their failure to develop a second faction, something pretty standard in a lot of MMOs, to give you all hope on some other aspect of gameplay that they've never been able to deliver on before either.
Good luck trekkers. You're going to need it as the game boldly stumbles into mechanics cryptic has never developed before!
I remember 12%.
Has any other % been posted by Cryptic since then? (please link to it as well)
I feel sorry for you that you took the time to write all that, because Dan's earlier posts directly contradict it. Your long post basically just makes the point that it didnt make financial sense to finish the KDF, while his posts have simply stated that different people at PW wanted different things. Hence my question: why were we ONLY told what the "one guy" wanted(a full KDF faction) up until this point?
In the end, exactly what we get will depend on where PWE sees the dollar signs. Will the money put into a full Klingon faction make them more money than it costs? Or will they decide it's better to have Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians are 'Monster Play' factions and sell players of those factions power-ups on the C-Store in the form of Play2Win ships and items in order to better hold out against the majority of the players running Starfleet? We'll have to see.
FTA:
While the fact that more people tend to play on the Federation side only is often discussed by players, we learned that only 18% of all STO players have made a Klingon -- this number was surprising and disappointing because there have been many updates to the "red" side since launch.
So less than a fifth of players by late July 2011 had even rolled a KDF toon. Course that does not mean actively playing KDF.. That just means taking a few minutes one day to make a toon. Less than a fifth of the population...
1: PWE didn't make the game FTP. Cryptic started converting to FTP before PWE purchased them. They saw that CO was doing better with FTP and decided to do that with STO too.
2: While PWE wants money, even more then PWE wanting the money is the fact that the people who buy PWE stock want money via dividends. Based on the year-end financials Perfect World made $162 million in profit this year and will have paid out around $156 million of it to shareholders - people like you and I who bought the stock.
So while there's greed involved it ultimately goes all the way down to you and I. Every time we buy stock, or put money in an IRA or 401k we are essentially being greedy in that we want our money to grow. We don't care how our money grows. We just want it to make more money.
The answer is obvious...
Nowhere would "Pay To Win" be more profitable than in a PVP oriented game... Someone gets their butt kicked, they're mad about it so they go to the C-Store and get that more powerful ship thinking it will make a difference. It's easier to get people to part with more money quickly if they are emotional, and there's nothing more emotional in the game than PVP.
So sad....
there was no content for KDF at that time.
Not many ships. Costume variety. Couldn't leave the Qu'nos sector. No missions. No Tutorial. Nebula's just started to work. Nothing to do end game. I am suprised it wasn't lower than that.
In any other MMO, it would have been.
If this pvp update in season 6 is the most awesome update of all time, it doesn't change the fact that if cryptic doesn't have any confidence in the kdf faction, they can't expect anyone else to.
Who who are the feds going to pvp againts?
Like this guy^ who evidently thinks all the Klingon based CoSplay, Klingon books, Klingon games (like Klingon monopoly) and other paraphenalia that has been made and sold over the years must be just another synthahol induced fantasy.
He must be right after all, who has actually seen a person dressed as a Klingon at any convention, or read these books that exist, or tried to follow the Mok'bara as a real martail arts, crafted actual metal bathleths, or ever seen teh Klingons referenced in popular social culture in TV shows like Frazier or Big Bang Theory, or seen the Opera's and plays that have been produced and funded by these imaginary fans.
No one actually speaks the Klingon langauge, surely its just all guttaral noises with no sense to it (http://youtu.be/LBtj4WoC6XA) or even bothers to have an impact on society in a positive way through charitable outreach.
Much less any fan club that is suppossed to exist iether here in the United States or the world as a whole
Africa
South Africa
KIDC - Klingon Imperial Diplomatic Corps
Asia
India
KIDC - Klingon Imperial Diplomatic Corps
Japan
KAI - Klingon Armada International
KAG - Klingon Assault Group
KIDC - Klingon Imperial Diplomatic Corps
Europe
Austria
Vienna/Wien
Khemorex Klinzhai!
Finland
KIDC - Klingon Imperial Diplomatic Corps
Germany
Berlin, Bochum, Bremen+Hamburg, Braunschweig, Frankfurt, Halle, Hannover, Koeln/Cologne, Koblenz, Lueneburg, Maitis+Stuttgart, Munich/Muenchen, Nuernberg, Trier
Khemorex Klinzhai!
Hannover,Saarbr
Evidently I am a glutton for punishment....
or so my therapist and Donimatrix keep telling me.
FOR THE EMPIRE! (A super secret, very exclusive empire that only includes 18 out of every 100 of us! We're that unique!)
Have a level playing field, as in only one valid faction.
Have the pvp happen between fleets.
No real brainfart possible there.
My main federation character is in a fleet with one active player (myself) because the other 30 or so left the game between 2010 and 2011.
How's that going to work out?
I won't even mention my KDF character, since your system doesn't include the KDF.
Something>Nothing
I'd rather see a Romulan faction that's incomplete than a Romulan faction that doesn't exist, in just the same way that every Klingon I've asked would rather see their current faction than see their current faction scrapped.
So what is the point of different Federation fleets fighting among each other when there is a "war" going on multiple fronts? If that is the road the Federation is on, Civil War, then it dederves to fall to any power that challenges it.
As for those that say that Fleet Bases should be tied to territory control: I am not going to say that it is a bad idea, I just have a concern. I run a young, small fleet. There is no way my fleet would be able to compete against a larger, more established fleet. I will absolutely refuse to sink any currency into something that can be taken away from me by an overly agressive fleet. Also there are fleets that are role play or PvE centric that do not PvP. If it is set up in a fassion where fleets can opt out of open PvP, then I am all for it. I am not against PvP, I just don't prefer it.
Can't I'm afraid ... , as STO is my first and only MMO .
As that is the single type of content that I regularly repeat (and have repeated before the S.5 transformation to a grind fest) -- I can hardly "blame" them for it .
What I do blame them for is the quantity .
1-2 new STF's per year should not be out of reach for them .
Same with PVP maps .
Same with KDF missions .
Actually I have not seen many say that , but that's not the point .
There are two points I'd like to make :
- Contrary to what Cryptic say about "F2P = players coming / going" , something has made "player retention" a priority .
Could be the numbers that are leaving due to a weak End Game .
Could be that after the initial "influx" of new players has died down , the numbers show that not that many buy end game gear for not much of an endgame .
- I would also like some ppl to look beyond S.6 .
Some ppl here react as if S.6 is the last straw , the last chance the KDF has .
I don't understand this reaction .
Is it an emotional stance based on how jaded some ppl feel ?
If so , it's perfectly understandable on one hand , and baffeling on the other . I mean what about S.7 or 8 or 9 ?
And just to be candid , I'm not happy with the Starbases bit for S.6 .
But I'm willing to accept that a large portion of Dev time is going into something I do not care for , into something I see as pointless .
But I am tentatively pleased that there may be a new STF coming this year , as well as new PVP maps/tech , after S.6 is implemented .
So it's not all doom & gloom for me , even as I too have a belly full of complaints .
I'll take D'Angelo's statement on this in regards to TOR .
He said he does not plan to compete .
And he was right .
Cryptic does not have the resources of Blizzard/WOW and/or whoever makes TOR .
It's logical to make the best with what you have .
At the same time , it's also logical to observe the behavior of Cryptic , and compare it to "leadership by committee" . Too many ideas , too few ppl to carry them out .
Hoepfully there will be a basis to buy an Non-combat or a combat starbase, or both.
That is not an issue the devs have anything to do with.
Recruit new members, or join another fleet. Just don't hope, or even wait, for cryptic to bring the Klingon side en par with the Federation.
(It keeps customers from asking questions like: Why is the Klingon side restricted to KDF, when there is a whole set of factions/families/clans/... within the Klingon society alone, not to mention the other members ...)
But in all seriousness... your point is very well taken. However, until we start seeing more KDF players in-game, Klingon fans won't be influencing development of the game, sadly.
One of Many Important Excerpts from the Dan Stahl interview with Gates of StoVoKor:
Soriedem: "The best advice that we can offer to Klingon fans is to be patient. It's coming."
Dan Stahl: "Eventually, yeah. We can get there, and it's slowly but surely."
jIQochbe'. I agree. Yes, I would like to start at level 1 as a Klingon and work my way up, without ever touching a Fed if that's how a player wants to play, but we have to think about things realistically. Cryptic is a business, and they feel it is in their best interest in the short-term to keep those level 51 players active and logged on by adding more Level 51 content, so that we have more to do than just grind STFs, rerun dailies and farm dilithium. Along the way they can, and will, release KDF-only stand alone missions to help fill the gap, such as the new KDF mission Alpha.
We want the KDF to be a full faction, and we want it today. We want more End Game PvE, and we want it today. We want more PvP content, and we want it today. We want more Foundry updates, and we want it today. We want the world and we want it now.
We have to be patient. They are working on it, and they were already working on KDF content before F2P got in the way. If you listened to the Dan Stahl interview with Gates of StoVoKor, you heard him say they have a working Klingon tutorial. It just needs some polish. They were working on KDF before re-focusing on F2P. Now they will focus on End Game content like Fleet Starbases and PvP for both factions. I want them to focus on Klingon content and I want them to focus on the Foundry, but I understand this is a product of a business and they have to do what they feel is good for business both short term and long term.
Speaking of the long-term...
While many in the Star Trek / STO community may not be aware, or may even choose to deny, there really is a large Klingon fanbase out there. Sadly, I have spoken to many hardcore Klingon fans who either left STO or never even joined it, due to the reality that the Klingons are not a full faction, not well-represented in STO in terms of the amount of gameplay content, and the amount of unique storyline content.
As Roach has pointed out (majQa'! Well done!) there are numerous international Klingon fanclubs out there who dress as Klingons, create Klingon personae, assemble in groups we call fleets and ships, and go to conventions and do charity work such as Toys For Tots, Red Cross blood drives, canned food drives, etc. I know many of them would happily use STO for their fleet meetings and activities (instead of using Second Life as many do) if they felt that the Klingon faction were a fleshed out faction that provided a more robust Klingon experience with more Klingon missions, more Klingon story, more Klingon customization etc. Perhaps someday STO will be able to provide that, and on that day, more Klingon fans will make STO the foundation of their Klingon fan clubs and the destination of choice to express and share their love for the Klingon culture.
I look forward to that day.
Many here are blaming PWE and/or Cryptic for the past and current status of the KDF faction. Perhaps they do deserve some of the blame, but frankly from everything I've seen since before beta, I would ultimately blame Atari or whoever set the initial release deadline.
There was a firm launch window, and Cryptic had to release when they did. If they had another year or two to develop the game before release, they would have been able to launch with two full factions, but they had to launch when they did; and that meant launching with an unfinished KDF (which at that time was just PvP Monster Play). Other MMOs have pre-launch development of 4 to 5 years, sometimes more; while STO had barely a year or two before launching -- sure, they had the core Cryptic Engine already, but that engine needed to be updated, and content needed to be created.
We are still feeling, and lamenting, the affect of that early launch in many ways. The most notable affect is the lack of Klingon content compared to Federation content. The KDF faction has come a long way, and there is still a long way to go, but after recent interviews with Dan Stahl by Gates of StoVoKor and Tribbles in Ecstasy (I was involved in both) as well as other dev comments (both on and off the record) I have a much better feeling about the future of the KDF faction.
Should we stop calling for more KDF content? ghobe'! No! We should continue to let them know we want more Klingon content; but at the same time we should remember these are real people doing a job for a business. We should not attack them on a personal level and always throw mud (or worse) at them. When we do speak critically about the game, we should offer constructive criticism and give examples of what we want to see, not just lament what we do not see.
tlhIngan vIttlhegh: mataHmeH maSachnIS.
Klingon proverb: To survive, we must expand.
The Klingon Way: A Warrior's Guide, p.11
Out of curiuosity, wargames to hone our skills against what future foe?
The NPC elements that exist? To what gain? We will never prevail against them as they are a very static part of teh storyline.
For bragging rights of the individual? Seems kinda shallow to foster such an enviroment.
Such a setting as one faction and the idea of PvP wargames is not going to bring any revenue from the Cstore, imo. Who would spend Cpoints or good money to buy an attempt at adding an advantage for an aspect of the game that only has bragging rights for the victor?
Why would one play?