My god, just delete the Klingons. Just delete that entire side of the game, since it's going to be 2015 soon with the same exact complaints of half-baked unfinished factions.
Delete the dualing on Andoria, and delete the Klingon faction. It's obvious that it will never be finished, ever. You are better off just trashing the aspects of this game that you have long de-prioritized.
Or, at least let the foundry community do what your team can't do.
One sided games aren't fun. Ever play SDGO[SD gundam capsule force]? It lacks the faction diversity that other MMO's have. Anotther game comes to mind. APB That is a double faction game done right. Also with a lot of Sandbox in. If this game was as foundry focused as you're trying to make it then Perfect World would have to start paying the players as well as the Cryptic staff...
Getting back to what you actually, said: If it was really just a case of Joe from PW saying one thing and Jill from PW saying another, then why did you guys repeatedly tell us only what Joe was saying up to this point when you suddenly start saying something different? You guys repeatedly told us over and over after the PW sale that "they" want a full KDF faction, but now its suddenly just end game and PvP. So why did you only tell us the one side of the story up until now?
Just for argument's sake... maybe Jill was promoted and now Joe is getting the morning coffee? Thus the "they" changed.
As the Mad Hatter once said: "Everybody switch places!"
The first part of your statement above is going beyond what I said. I have not ruled out anything when it comes to the KDF and I continue to investigate all opportunities, with discussions ongoing. What I am doing is focusing on the immediate future content which is going live over the next three months.
Nothing can be ruled out and who knows what the future will bring but I have to look at the reality of the situation instead of past statements that were meant to create optimism about the KDF. All those links the Nagus posted - all a no go from where we're standing.
One of the things about F2P is you get a different perspective on things from new players. One new player corrected me about the so called "chicken and egg" KDF situation. In business, this situation does not exist because all business are required to take a financial hit, invest in a product to develop it, and THEN make a profit from it.
Investment from PWE to fully develop the KDF is what we have not seen. And this is a continued trend from the launch of the game. You've explained the reasons why today and I'd rather be grounded in that reality than being in limbo.
I know you're committed to making STO the best game it can be no matter how long it takes. And I really do appreciate what's been done for the KDF thus far. All I can do at this point is make sure I play the new KDF mission and repeat it. And also stay on my KDF toons longer. Maybe some day STO will get the support it deserves on these long standing issues. Until then I'm convinced a finished KDF is a no go.
I think what happened is PWE expressed support for STO, including KDF expansion, but it's Cryptic that's changing the focus to this endgame and C-Store focus.
I don't get how people say PWE is hands-off on their US based games but then turn around and blame them for all the cash grabs in STO. That is not happening due to some random PWE manager stroking a white cat somewhere in Beijing - this is happening right here in the good old U.S. of A, right here at CRYPTIC STUDIOS.
I was one of those players thinking/hoping PWE would be more 'hands off'; but honestly, I think they've been pretty 'hnds on' from day of of conclusion of the acquisition. Why? I think many people (including Dan at the time) knew that STO would be F2P done the road as it were, I DON'T think they were expecting PWE to come in and say - 'suspend all your development plans in progress and lets get STO F2P ASAP'; which is pretty much what happened.
If anything that showed that PWE was going to be 'hands on' and the fact is Cryptic (like PWE) was first and foremost an MMO game developer - where Runic Games was more of a single player RPG typ[e game developer - so PWE didn't really know all that much about single player games; but with Cryptic, they knew what they wanted to do - and that's get all Cryptic MMOs to conform to PWE model (and yeah, if I'd put 50 million down to obtain a company in the same field, I doubt I'd be 'hands off') - so in the end; yes, shiould have seen it coming.
Since my first post in this thread, I've listened to the 'Gates of Grethor podcast uinterview - and Dan pretty much did spell out how PWE sees things:
PWE is interested in expanding STO in a direction that returns the most profit; so I can understand why saying - "Hey, give us a team to go back and create Level 1 -20 PVE content for the KDF" is met with an overall "Really? Is the ROI on that the best use of the development budget at this point is STO's lifecycle?" from PWE's budget dept.
^^^
The other disappointing aspect for players who also want Romulan and other factions is that from PWEs perspective - I really think they see it as "If you already have two workable factions for endgame PvP, you DON'T need a third..."; so I wouldn't expect a third or fourth full faction. If anything, they'll try to shoehorn any other factions into the existing Fed or KDF factions.
But in the end, this ids the most up front Dan has been ragarding the issue in any interview to date; and it seems pretty clear that unless someone in PWE upper management 'champions' a faction and is willing to take a chance on a smaller ROI from its development - at best the KDF will see a trickle of KDF PVE content done by Devs willing to make a lot of it 'off the clock' as it appears the designer of the new KDF mission did according to the podcast interview,
I could see how a lot of current KDF players who are that subset that identifies more with the Klingons in the Star trek franchise over the Federation - but at this point, for better or worse, Dan has given an upfront answer regarding the any future 'backfill' PVE content for the KDF. (And yes, IMO it IS different from what was being said during F2P development; but at this point, it is what it is.)
I think what happened is PWE expressed support for STO, including KDF expansion, but it's Cryptic that's changing the focus to this endgame and C-Store focus.
I don't get how people say PWE is hands-off on their US based games but then turn around and blame them for all the cash grabs in STO. That is not happening due to some random PWE manager stroking a white cat somewhere in Beijing - this is happening right here in the good old U.S. of A, right here at CRYPTIC STUDIOS.
I agree, I knew, as soon as I saw the announcement that Dan Stahl was coming back, that KDF was going to be put on the back burner again.
We're hearing the same 'there's only x% playing KDF' reasoning as before but it seems to me that while DStahl was away we got a reasonable emphasis on KDF and now he's back it's been pushed aside again.
As he's the man in charge it seems fairly obvious that there's a fair bit of bias as to where plans are directed.
Here's a simple question - how much money do the KDF need to put up to get a 'Klingon Expansion Pack'? We'll fire up a Kickstarter or something and prove that we can put our money where our mouth is.
After seeing how the c-store system has been setup, I do not think "Star Trek: Online" is making enough money. Since they need to rely on overpriced items and micro transactions, Cryptic could very well be losing game revenue. "Star Wars: The Old Republic" has more customers due to quality customer service, extensive content, and low prices.
I see yiou haven't actually DEALT with SWToR GM or customer service. many in my SWoTOR guild have and I can tell you 'quality customer service' doesn't exist in that gamme as the response time on most GM tickets is SLOWER than Cryptic's response time to an STO ticket by an ordser of magnitude. Also, $15 a month for a sub game isn't a 'low' price; it'd the industry standard; and if anything SWToR charges a higher price for those willing to subscribe long term as it only offers 6 months at a time maximum for purchase - where I think every other sub based MMO offeres a yearly sub (with a better price break.)
No debating the fact that SWToR has more players, but from my experience, it's NOT due to quality service and low prices, but the content is extensive; that I'll definitely conceede.
I see yiou haven't actually DEALT with SWToR GM or customer service. many in my SWoTOR guild have and I can tell you 'quality customer service' doesn't exist in that gamme as the response time on most GM tickets is SLOWER than Cryptic's response time to an STO ticket by an ordser of magnitude. Also, $15 a month for a sub game isn't a 'low' price; it'd the industry standard; and if anything SWToR charges a higher price for those willing to subscribe long term as it only offers 6 months at a time maximum for purchase - where I think every other sub based MMO offeres a yearly sub (with a better price break.)
No debating the fact that SWToR has more players, but from my experience, it's NOT due to quality service and low prices, but the content is extensive; that I'll definitely conceede.
I concur with the Customer Service.
Hell, Bioware doesn't even acknowledge the FPS issues their "game" has but tells you it's your own PC.
There isn't over 2 million people playing now. That was a number they wanted to spread out for their shareholders and stuff to make the company look good. In reality it's more like 500k or much, much less people as some servers are getting very low numbers at any given time of the day.
Honestly, I prefer STO to TOR simply for the fact I don't want to play Rebel Alliance.
Getting back to what you actually, said: If it was really just a case of Joe from PW saying one thing and Jill from PW saying another, then why did you guys repeatedly tell us only what Joe was saying up to this point when you suddenly start saying something different? You guys repeatedly told us over and over after the PW sale that "they" want a full KDF faction, but now its suddenly just end game and PvP. So why did you only tell us the one side of the story up until now?
OBJECTION YOUR HONOR! Poster is badgering the witness :P
Seriously there's no point in internet lawyering this to death. The priorities are not on fleshing out the KDF. They can get a better ROI on endgame content and I know you agree with that as a business decision with limited resources. There's no denying we're starved for content running those blasted STFs again and again and again (repeat x300) and with no FE's planned until late summer (we expect them to be late if at all) it kinda is what it is. At this point being LG for so long you'd just go back, play it once, maybe level an alt or get some loot that you couldn't get before, and forget about it. Lowbie Federation content is the same way. The ship has sailed on this for STO's playerbase.
I could see how a lot of current KDF players who are that subset that identifies more with the Klingons in the Star trek franchise over the Federation - but at this point, for better or worse, Dan has given an upfront answer regarding the any future 'backfill' PVE content for the KDF. (And yes, IMO it IS different from what was being said during F2P development; but at this point, it is what it is.)
This isn't the main point of what you say... but it gets at one of those false concepts that some Starfleet players have about "What is Star Trek" versus "What is Starfleet Online".
Just because someone likes the Klingon side doesn't mean they have a false view of Star Trek. It's totally legitimate, especially in a game.
Sure, some would say, "Oh, but Star Trek is always about Starfleet. That's why Starfleet Online should be about Starfleet first, and the KDF should always be second best in everything."
And I say, "The Dark Side".
If Star Wars is about simplistic Good versus Evil, why is there a Dark Side option in Star Wars gaming? Why give the option to be the Sith ever in one of those games? Why is it better for a Star Wars game to have a richer Sith experience than a simple appendage of the Jedi way?
Star Trek has a rich universe as well. It should have a rich KDF faction (not to mention the Romulans, and others). That would make the game better in many many ways, especially if PvP is ever to become anything worth playing.
Just because the Star Trek movies are about Starfleet doesn't mean the KDF faction in Starfleet Online should have been this way. It's a shame the way things have evolved, but it's what it is.
Sadly, the KDF will always be the red-haired stepchild. That's just the most financially sensible way to carry this out. The investment will always be too great to bring the KDF up to a level that will bring real player population to this side.
And, yes, this game does need endgame content, and the majority of that endgame population is Starfleet. Give Starfleet some 51+ content, and the KDF side will take care of itself naturally. Any endgame content will be Starfleet content first, just as virtually all the other content is (including c-store stuff that you would actually use in the end-game phase, in addition to outfits/uniforms for dirtside). The KDF will always be the laggard who won't pay back anywhere as much as Starfleet development. It's a shame I don't like the Starfleet side more, even if I've spent far more c-points on Starfleet stuff than KDF stuff simply because of the variety & availability of interesting purchases while I was leveling up on that side.
Maybe the devs can port a B'rel Retrofit to the Starfleet side & I'll have an easier transition back from the KDF side.
/Any opinions or disappointments the KDF side may have... irrelevant. Resistance is futile.
OBJECTION YOUR HONOR! Poster is badgering the witness :P
Seriously there's no point in internet lawyering this to death. The priorities are not on fleshing out the KDF. They can get a better ROI on endgame content and I know you agree with that as a business decision with limited resources. There's no denying we're starved for content running those blasted STFs again and again and again (repeat x300) and with no FE's planned until late summer (we expect them to be late if at all) it kinda is what it is. At this point being LG for so long you'd just go back, play it once, maybe level an alt or get some loot that you couldn't get before, and forget about it. Lowbie Federation content is the same way. The ship has sailed on this for STO's playerbase.
I would disagree with the badgering bit, I see it as him rightfully trying to get the answer of why they painted this nice image, only to have it crumble to bits.
Hey if they want to focus on endgame fine, wonderful, but don't tell us you want a full fledged KDF faction, when you don't. That, is dishonest at best.
IF the ROI shows STF and endgame PVP is the way to go, so be it, but stop saying anything else, and admit, everything you said before, wasn't the case.
For me, its just another reason to log in less.
I wont do the STF grind, unless its changed radically.
I wont do PVP here, its to imbalanced and as a person who prefers the healer role in any combat, I am never going to see a day where what I do has any meaning, because its clear to me, Healing in cryptic PVP is for the hypo.
Getting back to what you actually, said: If it was really just a case of Joe from PW saying one thing and Jill from PW saying another, then why did you guys repeatedly tell us only what Joe was saying up to this point when you suddenly start saying something different? You guys repeatedly told us over and over after the PW sale that "they" want a full KDF faction, but now its suddenly just end game and PvP. So why did you only tell us the one side of the story up until now?
Getting back to what was said, I will give you my interpretation:
Dan went to bat for a full KDF faction.
Perfect World Guy said, "A lot of big games have two factions. PvP is great because it's players generating their own content. What you have is red and blue, Alliance and Horde, sounds like a standard PvP setup."
Dan said, "Great. We'll talk about resources and a budget and send you some stuff." (Actually, I bet it was Jack doing most of this as he's the guy who'd get sent to China and I think we're talking part of a pitch for a MAJOR cash infusion here, bigger than the checks they write at the Bay Area offices.)
Stuff gets sent.
PW Guy comes back and says, "Your own market research shows they're 20% of the fanbase for Star Trek." (Yes, we know Cryptic has a report that says that, done pre-launch.)
Cryptic Guy says, "We knew that going in which is why we added some more species to the Klingon side, cult favorites."
PW Guy says, "At peak, what percentage of your players identified primarily as Klingon players?"
Cryptic Guy: "It varies. We think with more resources we could increase that number. It's a growth market."
PW Guy, "What percentage?"
Cryptic Guy: "It's hard to pin an exact figure. Probably around 20%. But if you look at that in terms of how under-developed the faction is, we're confident that means we can get more."
PW Guy: "*sigh* Look. The PvP thing is a good idea. Play up PvP. It's cheap content to produce if your game is balanced and it will drive cash shop sales. Start running hard metrics. We'll cut you the resources for more PvP and some data analysis.. Focus on endgame for now. You need to be making decisions based on data analysis, not anecdotal fan requests, especially if those fans are inside the company. This is business. Get back with me once you have the data analysis done."
Cryptic Guy: "Our quests are replayable. That constitutes a form of endgame content. More KDF missions is a form of more endgame."
PW:Guy: "And how many people replay those missions, practically? Do some data analysis. While we're at it, those Featured Episodes you're producing cost $1.5 million for a series. I don't think they're cost effective. And dumping $7.5 million into a leveling experience that probably shouldn't have been a faction to begin with is questionable. Run the numbers. We'll pay for what the numbers show. If you're right, we'll pay. If not, well, keep focusing on the C-Store and PvP. Try some different kinds of content to run metrics on it. We will pay for whatever the research supports. We won't pay for something the research doesn't support."
Cryptic Guy: "Our playerbase might not be happy.but we'll do what we can."
PW Guy (glancing at the numbers): "You're looking at 7.5 million dollars to finish the Klingon leveling experience. There's less than 60,000 Klingons. You'd come out ahead cutting every Klingon player a check for $100 and tell them to go play Warcraft if they want two factions in their MMO. And I'm not suggesting you do either one."
I'd like to actually see the numbers, because as we all know statistics can be widely interpreted. So 'running the numbers' as you're supposing in that scenario isn't a cut and dried fact, it's an opinion at best.
If Cryptic really wanted to they would finish the KDF, but the guys at the top, despite what has been said in the past, show no inclination to do things differently.
Sure, some would say, "Oh, but Star Trek is always about Starfleet. That's why Starfleet Online should be about Starfleet first, and the KDF should always be second best in everything."
And I say, "The Dark Side".
If Star Wars is about simplistic Good versus Evil, why is there a Dark Side option in Star Wars gaming? Why give the option to be the Sith ever in one of those games? Why is it better for a Star Wars game to have a richer Sith experience than a simple appendage of the Jedi way?
See, though, I think you hit on the central problem and it causes things to break down.
Star Wars IS about simplistic good versus evil.
Warcraft in its simplest form came down to Orcs versus Humans in a simplistic resource battle until the Orcs and Humans realized they weren't on a fantasy world at all but a steampunk Warhammer 40k-on-acid scenario where all lifeforms are robots turned organic by demons on holographic planets made by giant dwarves... and,oh, look, zombie apocalypse. My head hurts. Let's fight some more.
Star Trek isn't about a versus. It was never about fighting Klingons. There is no evil in Star Trek, either. Youkinda have some with Dukat and Khan but even those risked getting off point. In Star Trek, there are humans and there are people 40 minutes away from beingimpressed with how great humans are.
Star Trek is about everyone becoming the humans' friends.
And it bears out on the shows.
On Enterprise, you have antagonistic Vulcans. In TOS, you have an integrated Vulcan. On TOS, you have antagonistic Klingons and androids, In TNG, you have an integrated Klingon and an android crewmember. In TNG, you have hostile Ferengi, Cardassians, Bajorans, Holograms, Native American Colonists and Borg.In DS9, the Ferengi and Cardassians and Bajorans get integrated. On Voyager, it's the Native American holonist, holograms, and Borg who get their perspective explored while becoming really great friends with humans.
There is no versus. There is only pre-integration and post-integration into the celebration of how awesome human society is in a world that is post-scarcity, a world where people make a hobby out of scientific study.
Star Trek isn't about good versus evil. It's about misunderstandings with people who haven't realized how awesome we are yet and who maybe we need to learn more about. And this even extends to other earth-like societies where, almost universally, if something bad happens from exposure to earth culture, it's because they didn't understand and they need us to explain to them what their reaction should have been.
This isn't ONE series or ONE writer. This is every writer who ever worked on Star Trek, every plot, every series. This is what ALL Star Trek is about. And it gets subverted maybe ten times in hundreds of hours of television and even the subversions reinforce it somehow.
Star Trek isn't about versus anything. It's about making friends.
There's violence, sure, but it's all basically on the order of super-heroes fighting before they team up. There is no such thing as "The Enemy" in Star Trek. The Borg are as close as you get to that.
Might have been interesting if they'd divided the game up that way. One faction as Borg and one faction as everybody who's not Borg. Of course, Borg are ultimately deserving of rights and consideration as well and they will also eventually realize how awesome the Federation is and want to be friends with them too, something every writer who ever did a Borg episode seemed to be finding a way to do, with increasing frustration as fans demanded the idea of an adversary who couldn't be friendly.
Sweet, full meaningful Fleet PvP sector warfare is coming, that is good news Alecto, hopefully some of the 700+ fleet members who have tried the game and left will now come back so we can do more than one STF at a time and fight the real fight of Fleet Pvp
TBH I (as shameful as it is) was starting to lose faith, all I had left was hope and dreams, Fleet PvP warfare - something that was going to save STO and bring back the many who have left because of the lack of endgame content. Qa'pla brother Qa'pla, I'll think I'll go and buy every single item in the C-Store to celebrate
Star Trek isn't about versus anything. It's about making friends.
There's violence, sure, but it's all basically on the order of super-heroes fighting before they team up. There is no such thing as "The Enemy" in Star Trek. The Borg are as close as you get to that.
Might have been interesting if they'd divided the game up that way. One faction as Borg and one faction as everybody who's not Borg. Of course, Borg are ultimately deserving of rights and consideration as well and they will also eventually realize how awesome the Federation is and want to be friends with them too, something every writer who ever did a Borg episode seemed to be finding a way to do, with increasing frustration as fans demanded the idea of an adversary who couldn't be friendly.
Maybe it's not too late to have Borg for Monster Play and PvP instead of other species that are or will become friendly with humanity.
There is no versus. There is only pre-integration and post-integration into the celebration of how awesome human society is in a world that is post-scarcity, a world where people make a hobby out of scientific study.
Star Trek isn't about good versus evil. It's about misunderstandings with people who haven't realized how awesome we are yet and who maybe we need to learn more about. And this even extends to other earth-like societies where, almost universally, if something bad happens from exposure to earth culture, it's because they didn't understand and they need us to explain to them what their reaction should have been.
This isn't ONE series or ONE writer. This is every writer who ever worked on Star Trek, every plot, every series. This is what ALL Star Trek is about. And it gets subverted maybe ten times in hundreds of hours of television and even the subversions reinforce it somehow.
Star Trek isn't about versus anything. It's about making friends.
There's violence, sure, but it's all basically on the order of super-heroes fighting before they team up. There is no such thing as "The Enemy" in Star Trek. The Borg are as close as you get to that.
Might have been interesting if they'd divided the game up that way. One faction as Borg and one faction as everybody who's not Borg. Of course, Borg are ultimately deserving of rights and consideration as well and they will also eventually realize how awesome the Federation is and want to be friends with them too, something every writer who ever did a Borg episode seemed to be finding a way to do, with increasing frustration as fans demanded the idea of an adversary who couldn't be friendly.
I'm still talking about that fetishism about Starfleet that makes everyone think that everyone should be Starfleet, though, especially when it comes to this video game. (There were TNG shows that demonstrated that becoming/joining the Federation wasn't necessarily desirable an outcome, not to mention the whole "Prime Directive" quagmire. Starfleet isn't the pinnacle of Star Trek. It was the Kirks and Picards that made that horrible organization work at all. As you say, it's a complex thing because it's not as unified as the mess that is Star Wars.)
The militarism of DS9's better episodes also made for good drama, even if it didn't fit with the Vision(tm) of Roddenberry (shades of McQuaid here too).
Whatever Star Trek is, the KDF should have been a full faction. Modern MMOG & MMO-like game development makes it so, from WoW to Guild Wars to STTOR and so on.
That Star Trek: the TV show has a Starfleet slant doesn't mean it should have been so in Star Trek: the game, although the Borg-as-implacable foe would have been a compelling concept as well. We all can't be Locutus, but surely there could have been other ways to make a compelling "Monster" faction that was also a full fledged faction for a MMOG. A larger away team/horde of drones around a central "queen" figure... or something like that.
The Alliance versus Horde model with Starfleet versus the KDF was a good, straightforward way to conceptualize it... and it didn't work for this game, for whatever reasons. A full KDF faction couldn't be done, and it will likely never truly work, which is kind of sad.
Maybe I will roll a new Starfleet toon. Of course, Klingon hair is still dreadful in the game, no matter the faction...
PWE wants a healthy game, but different individuals have different opinions. Some would argue that a healthy 2 faction pvp game should be the goal, while others may argue having a full level 1-51 experience for KDF would be another goal. At the end of the day, Cryptic has to decide how we spend our manpower and address the long term health of the game (which is what everyone at Cryptic/PW is ultimately watching over).
So Cryptic has approached the healthy game target with different options and right now that option is focus on End Game because nearly everyone is Level 51 so any effort there benefits everyone and the long term health of the game the most. If we can do more, we will.
Health cannot be archived with a bleeding wound.
There is no future without a past.
If there is no balance, there is unbalance.
I'm out of fortune cookies.
But with that being said: PWE wants full PVP? Besides that PvE is what (AFAI assume) most ppl doing here they will not have it. They will neither make the big PvP cash-in with Federation or with KDF if one Fraction lacks presence.
Why not KICKSTART the KDF if money is really the issue (thats what I got from the interview)? Worst that will happen is that you do not reach the kickstart goal and continue as usual.
Hell, Bioware doesn't even acknowledge the FPS issues their "game" has but tells you it's your own PC.
There isn't over 2 million people playing now. That was a number they wanted to spread out for their shareholders and stuff to make the company look good. In reality it's more like 500k or much, much less people as some servers are getting very low numbers at any given time of the day.
Honestly, I prefer STO to TOR simply for the fact I don't want to play Rebel Alliance.
Does TOR doing well, really hurt you that much that you have to spout rubbish?
You do know lying to your shareholders is a criminal offence so no, I do not think the numbers were made up.
Where has your "in reality" TOR only has 500k people info come from? Just because people don't play every day, doesn't mean they have stopped subbing.
Give me the source that tells me TOR only has 500k people playing?
MASS Effect 3 has stopped a lot of peoples play on a lot of games, not just TOR or STO, but people don't always unsub when they are not playing an MMo and they may only dip in once a week and play but still keep their sub.
It's not about people playing, it's about subs.
Finally, I have no idea what you mean that you won't play TOR because you don't wont to play the Rebel Alliance? Unlike STO, TOR has 2 yes 2 fully fleshed out factions so if you don't like one, you can choose the other.
That one statement alone makes me realise you have no idea what your talking about.
And to keep this on topic, Nagus, were you expecting us to respond to your query or PW. Surely it has to be PW so why start this tread? Why not send the question to them direct? Why do you always post things that you really don't care about what anyone response is, as you really only want the devs to respond.
Do you enjoy the "notoriety" you have on these forums and on others so much, that you feel you need to make posts after posts to feed the Nagus train ego?
We all now that no matter what any Dev or Dan says about KDF or any Content, be in in the past, now, or in the future, doesn't mean anything until we actually see it. It's that simple. You know it, we now it, so why bother fuelling the flames?
I'm pretty sure you misunderstood the interview, Nagus.
I would quote it but the website is down. He said that when the KDF faction was first envisioned, it was compared internally to the Monster Play system in LOTRO, but that Players viewed the KDF as the Horde, and expected a full faction play such as unique maps and events and such. He stated that Cryptic would like to flesh out the faction more, but the fact is that the KDF was not designed to be a full faction in the first place and they would have to shut down development for a year or two in order to bring it up to speed to have everything the Federation has. So they are doing what they can to release KDF specific content between developments for both factions.
Quite dissapointed with the klingon interview. Dan still trying to sidestep the klingons story based content for lower levels. Makes me think i want d'angelo back as he along with stormshade was promising kdf to be on par mission wise mostly for 2012. With dan im thinking even this year we wont see that kdf content patch. The thing about investment wont paying off is a load of rubbish imo. Could say that about alot of stuff you have done since f2p. He isnt going to do risks he said he will do only sure things to generate money.
The whole argument about everyone at level 51 now, well so what, the missions were restructured to be leveled with you so at level 51 the enemies would be equal to you and so were rewards. Putting in levels 1-21 would give the kdf new storys to enjoy (most of what star trek is about in games and shows) they can play it at level 51 so everyone would enjoy it and get people playing kdf more and new players which keep coming will play it and enjoy it. So imo the 1-21 content is so damn worth it for alot of reasons and dan you know you have to put content in to kdf if you want ppl to play kdf and then put cstore kdf stuff in to buy, they cant buy stuff if theres nothing to use it for.
The game pushes ppl to max level quickly, well whats the point of leveling at all why not just remove all ranks have one rank and be done with it which all content is based on. I mean you have cstore ships that are for low to mid players, how do u expect them to buy them and use them if they can only use them for 1hr or so till they rapidly progress out of the level for the ship which puts them in a new level which makes the ship they just got underpowered?
Imo i would as a fed player not mind if they stoped doing season 6 stuff, starbases, pvp, foundry stuff and just set 5 months aside and just get it over with and do kdf content for them months to get to par with feds or the majority of stuff they have and then from then on do neutral content so its neither based for feds or klingons but something both factions would do i.e common goal stuff doesnt matter what faction u play as.
Oh and somehow you could do the whole fed side within a year as i think thats all you had time for when you got the licence so if you just fleshed out 1-21 missions for kdf (no voice overs, cinematics, just like most of the fed only ones) then you should be able to do it within a quater of a year to half a year if you put the whole team on it. As a fed player there is enough content to wait for the kdf to be fleshed out.
The kdf problem will not be going away, you started so might as well finish then from then on no more fed based storys, or klingons just neutral stuff.
You can keep your money coming in with lock boxes, and cstore stuff so its not like your going to lose money if you set feds aside for awhile and do the klingon stuff. Which was suggested to be done by end of 2012 by d'angelo and stormshade, you even said there was work done on the 1-21 missions but put on hold for f2p, how much of that is done, 10%, 50%, how much, how much time would be needed to finish whats been started, you could break it up into chunks i.e 5 levels per season worth of kdf story missions (not saying content because you always think it means other things when we just want content to mean missions for kdf in the most sense).
Well thats my opinion anyhow.
Also im sick of when asked about the talks between you and pw you keep saying its in discussions, well this has been going on non stop, either get the talks to a conclusion or stop dragging it out as i dont see a end with the excuses of "in talks with pw" or "its been in discussion about kdf content (stop with content words and keep to what that is which is 1-21 missions). Sorry but discussions that go on this long just to us as the community (im guessing) makes it look like progress will never conclude and you can only do it so long and its been 2 years now.
What has been put in kdf is very small amount over 2 years, its just ridiculous.
Oh and you talked in the interview about klingons being fighting/monster type of faction, well yes the klingons are a warrior race but they have a deep culture which isnt just about fighting so i hope to see less mindless fighting missions etc just because there a warrior based culture.
Oh and with regards to pvp focus for season 6, well please remember that star trek isnt about fighting and wars its about exploration, it just isnt the type of game/setting for pvp so please do not invest too much time on pvp when im hoping most would agree, we would rather that effort be focused more on story, exploration instead and focus on npc encounter/conflicts instead of pvp.
You can't compare it to for instance SWTOR because they have a production team 5-10 times the size of STO's as well as a $9 Million a month funding (before subscription).
STO is a great game, an amazing game when you factor in the size of the team compared to Bioware's.
The Dev's work so hard on it and to those who say they aren't working on Klingon content.. what do you think Alpha is?!
These things take time.
The Dev's have been burnt by saying what they're working on before when the schedule changed etc and they weren't able to complete what they were working on.
THere's always room for improvement, and when you look at the content that's come out since F2P hit, it's probably more than at any other time in the game's history.
I just recently started a new Klingon Character to reach BG. I'm loving it, so much more than I ever did before. There have been massive changes and improvements and they will keep on coming.
Guys and Gals, please think about what you're saying before you say it, the Dev's are people too and they work hard FOR YOU.
Keep up the good work and Happy First Contact Day :cool:
See, though, I think you hit on the central problem and it causes things to break down.
Star Wars IS about simplistic good versus evil.
Warcraft in its simplest form came down to Orcs versus Humans in a simplistic resource battle until the Orcs and Humans realized they weren't on a fantasy world at all but a steampunk Warhammer 40k-on-acid scenario where all lifeforms are robots turned organic by demons on holographic planets made by giant dwarves... and,oh, look, zombie apocalypse. My head hurts. Let's fight some more.
Star Trek isn't about a versus. It was never about fighting Klingons. There is no evil in Star Trek, either. Youkinda have some with Dukat and Khan but even those risked getting off point. In Star Trek, there are humans and there are people 40 minutes away from beingimpressed with how great humans are.
Star Trek is about everyone becoming the humans' friends.
And it bears out on the shows.
On Enterprise, you have antagonistic Vulcans. In TOS, you have an integrated Vulcan. On TOS, you have antagonistic Klingons and androids, In TNG, you have an integrated Klingon and an android crewmember. In TNG, you have hostile Ferengi, Cardassians, Bajorans, Holograms, Native American Colonists and Borg.In DS9, the Ferengi and Cardassians and Bajorans get integrated. On Voyager, it's the Native American holonist, holograms, and Borg who get their perspective explored while becoming really great friends with humans.
There is no versus. There is only pre-integration and post-integration into the celebration of how awesome human society is in a world that is post-scarcity, a world where people make a hobby out of scientific study.
Star Trek isn't about good versus evil. It's about misunderstandings with people who haven't realized how awesome we are yet and who maybe we need to learn more about. And this even extends to other earth-like societies where, almost universally, if something bad happens from exposure to earth culture, it's because they didn't understand and they need us to explain to them what their reaction should have been.
This isn't ONE series or ONE writer. This is every writer who ever worked on Star Trek, every plot, every series. This is what ALL Star Trek is about. And it gets subverted maybe ten times in hundreds of hours of television and even the subversions reinforce it somehow.
Star Trek isn't about versus anything. It's about making friends.
There's violence, sure, but it's all basically on the order of super-heroes fighting before they team up. There is no such thing as "The Enemy" in Star Trek. The Borg are as close as you get to that.
Might have been interesting if they'd divided the game up that way. One faction as Borg and one faction as everybody who's not Borg. Of course, Borg are ultimately deserving of rights and consideration as well and they will also eventually realize how awesome the Federation is and want to be friends with them too, something every writer who ever did a Borg episode seemed to be finding a way to do, with increasing frustration as fans demanded the idea of an adversary who couldn't be friendly.
Nice summary.
Star Trek is ONE sided, the movies and TV series are all from the perspective of the Federation. They are the faction in focus, not the Klingons, Romulans or any of the gazillion random alien species introduced in every weekly episode. In fact in the majority of the episodes there are a new "Monster of the Week" (Buffy coined term), that introduces this weeks big bad, or in some cases, it spans several episodes. The MotW is at some point Klingons, Romulans, Hirogen, ect ect.
People are too stuck in the archaic "us vs them" two faction system, especially when it comes to conflict/PvP. It could just as well, and be done better, with a 1 faction setup.
Two faction systems are inherently flawed and seldom work well in MMORPGs. There are always issues which can't directly be solved elegantly through mechanics. SWTOR being the latest to portray those issues.
PvP aside, It might make more sense given the limited resources to revamp the current Federation missions to accept Klingon Empire players and get rid of the segregation of players. The dialog from the Klingon missions could be salvaged and re-used. All future content could focus on the un-easy truce/cooperation/alliance between the Empire and Federation for the sake of the future of the Quadrant or the galaxy vs the Undine, Borg, "Other monster of the week".
The 25th century war between the Klingon Empire and Federation seems to be mostly a Cryptic invention anyway, likely because they wanted PvP, and could therefor just as easily be dismissed as it was introduced. Source: STOWiki, Chronology, Memory Alpha, 25th Century, Memory Alpha, 24th Century.
If the goal is to have viable and healthy "end-game" PvP between two factions, how can you leave one faction cut in half and broken?
New players come into the game (that's why you all went F2P) ... and yet they don't even get to TOUCH the Klingon side of the game until 20 or so levels in.
That creates an artificial barrier for one of the two sides in PvP and skews the balance of PvP population heavily in favor of one side in the battle. In short, there's more feds than klingons to engage in end-game PvP.
So ... to swing this right back around to the topic at hand ... how do you plan to even make a healthy and viable end-game PvP experience when you only have half a faction to put up against the federation?
And finally my repeated question: What happened to all those resources that PWE promised to infuse into this game? Not just the hires were touted by the PR-speak. There was talk of money being dumped into this game's development. I mean it's already obvious to anyone who can count that there have been a couple of hires that have been neutralized by a couple of people leaving. So the "we're going to hire a bunch of new developers" thing hasn't worked out. But surely the money the dumped was put to good use? It can't possibly have been wasted on making the Galor and the keys to lockboxes?
D'Angelo wouldn't have produced a single episode of KDF stuff more than Stahl would. Do you really want to go back to one-way communication and being walled out? No need to be spiteful...
Star Trek is ONE sided, the movies and TV series are all from the perspective of the Federation. They are the faction in focus, not the Klingons, Romulans or any of the gazillion random alien species introduced in every weekly episode. In fact in the majority of the episodes there are a new "Monster of the Week" (Buffy coined term), that introduces this weeks big bad, or in some cases, it spans several episodes. The MotW is at some point Klingons, Romulans, Hirogen, ect ect.
People are too stuck in the archaic "us vs them" two faction system, especially when it comes to conflict/PvP. It could just as well, and be done better, with a 1 faction setup.
Two faction systems are inherently flawed and seldom work well in MMORPGs. There are always issues which can't directly be solved elegantly through mechanics. SWTOR being the latest to portray those issues.
PvP aside, It might make more sense given the limited resources to revamp the current Federation missions to accept Klingon Empire players and get rid of the segregation of players. The dialog from the Klingon missions could be salvaged and re-used. All future content could focus on the un-easy truce/cooperation/alliance between the Empire and Federation for the sake of the future of the Quadrant or the galaxy vs the Undine, Borg, "Other monster of the week".
The 25th century war between the Klingon Empire and Federation seems to be mostly a Cryptic invention anyway, likely because they wanted PvP, and could therefor just as easily be dismissed as it was introduced. Source: STOWiki, Chronology, Memory Alpha, 25th Century, Memory Alpha, 24th Century.
In the end, all of the Star Trek Empires are one faction. That's my overall point. Feds are just the one to broker that.
I haven't brought this up in a couple of years but, really, if I'd designed a Trek MMO:
- your empire/affiliation would be your MMO class. (Ie. Hunter, Priest, Ranger, Paladin in fantasy games)
- Science/Tactical/Engineering, etc. would be trees within the class (ie. Discipline, Shadow, Holy, Fury)
- Federation would be, say, a Tank/DPS/Healing hybrid with emphasis on engineering tricks and traps. Klingons would be Tank/DPS hybrid with more melee play, bleeds, and knockbacks. Romulans would be Healing/DPS hybrid with emphasis on stealth and sabotage.
- Questing would be mostly faction agnostic. Questgivers would NOT be superior officers generally but people sending distress calls, with opportunities to exploit the weak baked into certain empires.
- Raiding would generate chat threads like: Group for Infected forming. Have one Romulan, one Cardassian, looking for one Federation and two Klingons, ideally. Will settle for one Federation, one Klingon, and one Dominion.
Comments
save for the fact, speaking, is an action.
while you may believe this to be humorous I'm sure, it doesn't change the message, or the meaning.
One sided games aren't fun. Ever play SDGO[SD gundam capsule force]? It lacks the faction diversity that other MMO's have. Anotther game comes to mind. APB That is a double faction game done right. Also with a lot of Sandbox in. If this game was as foundry focused as you're trying to make it then Perfect World would have to start paying the players as well as the Cryptic staff...
Just for argument's sake... maybe Jill was promoted and now Joe is getting the morning coffee? Thus the "they" changed.
As the Mad Hatter once said: "Everybody switch places!"
Nothing can be ruled out and who knows what the future will bring but I have to look at the reality of the situation instead of past statements that were meant to create optimism about the KDF. All those links the Nagus posted - all a no go from where we're standing.
One of the things about F2P is you get a different perspective on things from new players. One new player corrected me about the so called "chicken and egg" KDF situation. In business, this situation does not exist because all business are required to take a financial hit, invest in a product to develop it, and THEN make a profit from it.
Investment from PWE to fully develop the KDF is what we have not seen. And this is a continued trend from the launch of the game. You've explained the reasons why today and I'd rather be grounded in that reality than being in limbo.
I know you're committed to making STO the best game it can be no matter how long it takes. And I really do appreciate what's been done for the KDF thus far. All I can do at this point is make sure I play the new KDF mission and repeat it. And also stay on my KDF toons longer. Maybe some day STO will get the support it deserves on these long standing issues. Until then I'm convinced a finished KDF is a no go.
If anything that showed that PWE was going to be 'hands on' and the fact is Cryptic (like PWE) was first and foremost an MMO game developer - where Runic Games was more of a single player RPG typ[e game developer - so PWE didn't really know all that much about single player games; but with Cryptic, they knew what they wanted to do - and that's get all Cryptic MMOs to conform to PWE model (and yeah, if I'd put 50 million down to obtain a company in the same field, I doubt I'd be 'hands off') - so in the end; yes, shiould have seen it coming.
Since my first post in this thread, I've listened to the 'Gates of Grethor podcast uinterview - and Dan pretty much did spell out how PWE sees things:
PWE is interested in expanding STO in a direction that returns the most profit; so I can understand why saying - "Hey, give us a team to go back and create Level 1 -20 PVE content for the KDF" is met with an overall "Really? Is the ROI on that the best use of the development budget at this point is STO's lifecycle?" from PWE's budget dept.
^^^
The other disappointing aspect for players who also want Romulan and other factions is that from PWEs perspective - I really think they see it as "If you already have two workable factions for endgame PvP, you DON'T need a third..."; so I wouldn't expect a third or fourth full faction. If anything, they'll try to shoehorn any other factions into the existing Fed or KDF factions.
But in the end, this ids the most up front Dan has been ragarding the issue in any interview to date; and it seems pretty clear that unless someone in PWE upper management 'champions' a faction and is willing to take a chance on a smaller ROI from its development - at best the KDF will see a trickle of KDF PVE content done by Devs willing to make a lot of it 'off the clock' as it appears the designer of the new KDF mission did according to the podcast interview,
I could see how a lot of current KDF players who are that subset that identifies more with the Klingons in the Star trek franchise over the Federation - but at this point, for better or worse, Dan has given an upfront answer regarding the any future 'backfill' PVE content for the KDF. (And yes, IMO it IS different from what was being said during F2P development; but at this point, it is what it is.)
edit: nevermind, my wife just said to leave you alone.
I agree, I knew, as soon as I saw the announcement that Dan Stahl was coming back, that KDF was going to be put on the back burner again.
We're hearing the same 'there's only x% playing KDF' reasoning as before but it seems to me that while DStahl was away we got a reasonable emphasis on KDF and now he's back it's been pushed aside again.
As he's the man in charge it seems fairly obvious that there's a fair bit of bias as to where plans are directed.
Here's a simple question - how much money do the KDF need to put up to get a 'Klingon Expansion Pack'? We'll fire up a Kickstarter or something and prove that we can put our money where our mouth is.
I see yiou haven't actually DEALT with SWToR GM or customer service. many in my SWoTOR guild have and I can tell you 'quality customer service' doesn't exist in that gamme as the response time on most GM tickets is SLOWER than Cryptic's response time to an STO ticket by an ordser of magnitude. Also, $15 a month for a sub game isn't a 'low' price; it'd the industry standard; and if anything SWToR charges a higher price for those willing to subscribe long term as it only offers 6 months at a time maximum for purchase - where I think every other sub based MMO offeres a yearly sub (with a better price break.)
No debating the fact that SWToR has more players, but from my experience, it's NOT due to quality service and low prices, but the content is extensive; that I'll definitely conceede.
I concur with the Customer Service.
Hell, Bioware doesn't even acknowledge the FPS issues their "game" has but tells you it's your own PC.
There isn't over 2 million people playing now. That was a number they wanted to spread out for their shareholders and stuff to make the company look good. In reality it's more like 500k or much, much less people as some servers are getting very low numbers at any given time of the day.
Honestly, I prefer STO to TOR simply for the fact I don't want to play Rebel Alliance.
OBJECTION YOUR HONOR! Poster is badgering the witness :P
Seriously there's no point in internet lawyering this to death. The priorities are not on fleshing out the KDF. They can get a better ROI on endgame content and I know you agree with that as a business decision with limited resources. There's no denying we're starved for content running those blasted STFs again and again and again (repeat x300) and with no FE's planned until late summer (we expect them to be late if at all) it kinda is what it is. At this point being LG for so long you'd just go back, play it once, maybe level an alt or get some loot that you couldn't get before, and forget about it. Lowbie Federation content is the same way. The ship has sailed on this for STO's playerbase.
This isn't the main point of what you say... but it gets at one of those false concepts that some Starfleet players have about "What is Star Trek" versus "What is Starfleet Online".
Just because someone likes the Klingon side doesn't mean they have a false view of Star Trek. It's totally legitimate, especially in a game.
Sure, some would say, "Oh, but Star Trek is always about Starfleet. That's why Starfleet Online should be about Starfleet first, and the KDF should always be second best in everything."
And I say, "The Dark Side".
If Star Wars is about simplistic Good versus Evil, why is there a Dark Side option in Star Wars gaming? Why give the option to be the Sith ever in one of those games? Why is it better for a Star Wars game to have a richer Sith experience than a simple appendage of the Jedi way?
Star Trek has a rich universe as well. It should have a rich KDF faction (not to mention the Romulans, and others). That would make the game better in many many ways, especially if PvP is ever to become anything worth playing.
Just because the Star Trek movies are about Starfleet doesn't mean the KDF faction in Starfleet Online should have been this way. It's a shame the way things have evolved, but it's what it is.
Sadly, the KDF will always be the red-haired stepchild. That's just the most financially sensible way to carry this out. The investment will always be too great to bring the KDF up to a level that will bring real player population to this side.
And, yes, this game does need endgame content, and the majority of that endgame population is Starfleet. Give Starfleet some 51+ content, and the KDF side will take care of itself naturally. Any endgame content will be Starfleet content first, just as virtually all the other content is (including c-store stuff that you would actually use in the end-game phase, in addition to outfits/uniforms for dirtside). The KDF will always be the laggard who won't pay back anywhere as much as Starfleet development. It's a shame I don't like the Starfleet side more, even if I've spent far more c-points on Starfleet stuff than KDF stuff simply because of the variety & availability of interesting purchases while I was leveling up on that side.
Maybe the devs can port a B'rel Retrofit to the Starfleet side & I'll have an easier transition back from the KDF side.
/Any opinions or disappointments the KDF side may have... irrelevant. Resistance is futile.
I would disagree with the badgering bit, I see it as him rightfully trying to get the answer of why they painted this nice image, only to have it crumble to bits.
Hey if they want to focus on endgame fine, wonderful, but don't tell us you want a full fledged KDF faction, when you don't. That, is dishonest at best.
IF the ROI shows STF and endgame PVP is the way to go, so be it, but stop saying anything else, and admit, everything you said before, wasn't the case.
For me, its just another reason to log in less.
I wont do the STF grind, unless its changed radically.
I wont do PVP here, its to imbalanced and as a person who prefers the healer role in any combat, I am never going to see a day where what I do has any meaning, because its clear to me, Healing in cryptic PVP is for the hypo.
Getting back to what was said, I will give you my interpretation:
Dan went to bat for a full KDF faction.
Perfect World Guy said, "A lot of big games have two factions. PvP is great because it's players generating their own content. What you have is red and blue, Alliance and Horde, sounds like a standard PvP setup."
Dan said, "Great. We'll talk about resources and a budget and send you some stuff." (Actually, I bet it was Jack doing most of this as he's the guy who'd get sent to China and I think we're talking part of a pitch for a MAJOR cash infusion here, bigger than the checks they write at the Bay Area offices.)
Stuff gets sent.
PW Guy comes back and says, "Your own market research shows they're 20% of the fanbase for Star Trek." (Yes, we know Cryptic has a report that says that, done pre-launch.)
Cryptic Guy says, "We knew that going in which is why we added some more species to the Klingon side, cult favorites."
PW Guy says, "At peak, what percentage of your players identified primarily as Klingon players?"
Cryptic Guy: "It varies. We think with more resources we could increase that number. It's a growth market."
PW Guy, "What percentage?"
Cryptic Guy: "It's hard to pin an exact figure. Probably around 20%. But if you look at that in terms of how under-developed the faction is, we're confident that means we can get more."
PW Guy: "*sigh* Look. The PvP thing is a good idea. Play up PvP. It's cheap content to produce if your game is balanced and it will drive cash shop sales. Start running hard metrics. We'll cut you the resources for more PvP and some data analysis.. Focus on endgame for now. You need to be making decisions based on data analysis, not anecdotal fan requests, especially if those fans are inside the company. This is business. Get back with me once you have the data analysis done."
Cryptic Guy: "Our quests are replayable. That constitutes a form of endgame content. More KDF missions is a form of more endgame."
PW:Guy: "And how many people replay those missions, practically? Do some data analysis. While we're at it, those Featured Episodes you're producing cost $1.5 million for a series. I don't think they're cost effective. And dumping $7.5 million into a leveling experience that probably shouldn't have been a faction to begin with is questionable. Run the numbers. We'll pay for what the numbers show. If you're right, we'll pay. If not, well, keep focusing on the C-Store and PvP. Try some different kinds of content to run metrics on it. We will pay for whatever the research supports. We won't pay for something the research doesn't support."
Cryptic Guy: "Our playerbase might not be happy.but we'll do what we can."
PW Guy (glancing at the numbers): "You're looking at 7.5 million dollars to finish the Klingon leveling experience. There's less than 60,000 Klingons. You'd come out ahead cutting every Klingon player a check for $100 and tell them to go play Warcraft if they want two factions in their MMO. And I'm not suggesting you do either one."
If Cryptic really wanted to they would finish the KDF, but the guys at the top, despite what has been said in the past, show no inclination to do things differently.
*Raises a bottle of Bloodwine*
To the Undiscovered Country... The Future!
Probably best to just break out the love poetry and duck! After you've lured your mate of course...
Qapla'
See, though, I think you hit on the central problem and it causes things to break down.
Star Wars IS about simplistic good versus evil.
Warcraft in its simplest form came down to Orcs versus Humans in a simplistic resource battle until the Orcs and Humans realized they weren't on a fantasy world at all but a steampunk Warhammer 40k-on-acid scenario where all lifeforms are robots turned organic by demons on holographic planets made by giant dwarves... and,oh, look, zombie apocalypse. My head hurts. Let's fight some more.
Star Trek isn't about a versus. It was never about fighting Klingons. There is no evil in Star Trek, either. Youkinda have some with Dukat and Khan but even those risked getting off point. In Star Trek, there are humans and there are people 40 minutes away from beingimpressed with how great humans are.
Star Trek is about everyone becoming the humans' friends.
And it bears out on the shows.
On Enterprise, you have antagonistic Vulcans. In TOS, you have an integrated Vulcan. On TOS, you have antagonistic Klingons and androids, In TNG, you have an integrated Klingon and an android crewmember. In TNG, you have hostile Ferengi, Cardassians, Bajorans, Holograms, Native American Colonists and Borg.In DS9, the Ferengi and Cardassians and Bajorans get integrated. On Voyager, it's the Native American holonist, holograms, and Borg who get their perspective explored while becoming really great friends with humans.
There is no versus. There is only pre-integration and post-integration into the celebration of how awesome human society is in a world that is post-scarcity, a world where people make a hobby out of scientific study.
Star Trek isn't about good versus evil. It's about misunderstandings with people who haven't realized how awesome we are yet and who maybe we need to learn more about. And this even extends to other earth-like societies where, almost universally, if something bad happens from exposure to earth culture, it's because they didn't understand and they need us to explain to them what their reaction should have been.
This isn't ONE series or ONE writer. This is every writer who ever worked on Star Trek, every plot, every series. This is what ALL Star Trek is about. And it gets subverted maybe ten times in hundreds of hours of television and even the subversions reinforce it somehow.
Star Trek isn't about versus anything. It's about making friends.
There's violence, sure, but it's all basically on the order of super-heroes fighting before they team up. There is no such thing as "The Enemy" in Star Trek. The Borg are as close as you get to that.
Might have been interesting if they'd divided the game up that way. One faction as Borg and one faction as everybody who's not Borg. Of course, Borg are ultimately deserving of rights and consideration as well and they will also eventually realize how awesome the Federation is and want to be friends with them too, something every writer who ever did a Borg episode seemed to be finding a way to do, with increasing frustration as fans demanded the idea of an adversary who couldn't be friendly.
TBH I (as shameful as it is) was starting to lose faith, all I had left was hope and dreams, Fleet PvP warfare - something that was going to save STO and bring back the many who have left because of the lack of endgame content. Qa'pla brother Qa'pla, I'll think I'll go and buy every single item in the C-Store to celebrate
Maybe it's not too late to have Borg for Monster Play and PvP instead of other species that are or will become friendly with humanity.
I'm still talking about that fetishism about Starfleet that makes everyone think that everyone should be Starfleet, though, especially when it comes to this video game. (There were TNG shows that demonstrated that becoming/joining the Federation wasn't necessarily desirable an outcome, not to mention the whole "Prime Directive" quagmire. Starfleet isn't the pinnacle of Star Trek. It was the Kirks and Picards that made that horrible organization work at all. As you say, it's a complex thing because it's not as unified as the mess that is Star Wars.)
The militarism of DS9's better episodes also made for good drama, even if it didn't fit with the Vision(tm) of Roddenberry (shades of McQuaid here too).
Whatever Star Trek is, the KDF should have been a full faction. Modern MMOG & MMO-like game development makes it so, from WoW to Guild Wars to STTOR and so on.
That Star Trek: the TV show has a Starfleet slant doesn't mean it should have been so in Star Trek: the game, although the Borg-as-implacable foe would have been a compelling concept as well. We all can't be Locutus, but surely there could have been other ways to make a compelling "Monster" faction that was also a full fledged faction for a MMOG. A larger away team/horde of drones around a central "queen" figure... or something like that.
The Alliance versus Horde model with Starfleet versus the KDF was a good, straightforward way to conceptualize it... and it didn't work for this game, for whatever reasons. A full KDF faction couldn't be done, and it will likely never truly work, which is kind of sad.
Maybe I will roll a new Starfleet toon. Of course, Klingon hair is still dreadful in the game, no matter the faction...
Health cannot be archived with a bleeding wound.
There is no future without a past.
If there is no balance, there is unbalance.
I'm out of fortune cookies.
But with that being said: PWE wants full PVP? Besides that PvE is what (AFAI assume) most ppl doing here they will not have it. They will neither make the big PvP cash-in with Federation or with KDF if one Fraction lacks presence.
Why not KICKSTART the KDF if money is really the issue (thats what I got from the interview)? Worst that will happen is that you do not reach the kickstart goal and continue as usual.
Does TOR doing well, really hurt you that much that you have to spout rubbish?
You do know lying to your shareholders is a criminal offence so no, I do not think the numbers were made up.
Where has your "in reality" TOR only has 500k people info come from? Just because people don't play every day, doesn't mean they have stopped subbing.
Give me the source that tells me TOR only has 500k people playing?
MASS Effect 3 has stopped a lot of peoples play on a lot of games, not just TOR or STO, but people don't always unsub when they are not playing an MMo and they may only dip in once a week and play but still keep their sub.
It's not about people playing, it's about subs.
Finally, I have no idea what you mean that you won't play TOR because you don't wont to play the Rebel Alliance? Unlike STO, TOR has 2 yes 2 fully fleshed out factions so if you don't like one, you can choose the other.
That one statement alone makes me realise you have no idea what your talking about.
And to keep this on topic, Nagus, were you expecting us to respond to your query or PW. Surely it has to be PW so why start this tread? Why not send the question to them direct? Why do you always post things that you really don't care about what anyone response is, as you really only want the devs to respond.
Do you enjoy the "notoriety" you have on these forums and on others so much, that you feel you need to make posts after posts to feed the Nagus train ego?
We all now that no matter what any Dev or Dan says about KDF or any Content, be in in the past, now, or in the future, doesn't mean anything until we actually see it. It's that simple. You know it, we now it, so why bother fuelling the flames?
I think I know why.
I would quote it but the website is down. He said that when the KDF faction was first envisioned, it was compared internally to the Monster Play system in LOTRO, but that Players viewed the KDF as the Horde, and expected a full faction play such as unique maps and events and such. He stated that Cryptic would like to flesh out the faction more, but the fact is that the KDF was not designed to be a full faction in the first place and they would have to shut down development for a year or two in order to bring it up to speed to have everything the Federation has. So they are doing what they can to release KDF specific content between developments for both factions.
The whole argument about everyone at level 51 now, well so what, the missions were restructured to be leveled with you so at level 51 the enemies would be equal to you and so were rewards. Putting in levels 1-21 would give the kdf new storys to enjoy (most of what star trek is about in games and shows) they can play it at level 51 so everyone would enjoy it and get people playing kdf more and new players which keep coming will play it and enjoy it. So imo the 1-21 content is so damn worth it for alot of reasons and dan you know you have to put content in to kdf if you want ppl to play kdf and then put cstore kdf stuff in to buy, they cant buy stuff if theres nothing to use it for.
The game pushes ppl to max level quickly, well whats the point of leveling at all why not just remove all ranks have one rank and be done with it which all content is based on. I mean you have cstore ships that are for low to mid players, how do u expect them to buy them and use them if they can only use them for 1hr or so till they rapidly progress out of the level for the ship which puts them in a new level which makes the ship they just got underpowered?
Imo i would as a fed player not mind if they stoped doing season 6 stuff, starbases, pvp, foundry stuff and just set 5 months aside and just get it over with and do kdf content for them months to get to par with feds or the majority of stuff they have and then from then on do neutral content so its neither based for feds or klingons but something both factions would do i.e common goal stuff doesnt matter what faction u play as.
Oh and somehow you could do the whole fed side within a year as i think thats all you had time for when you got the licence so if you just fleshed out 1-21 missions for kdf (no voice overs, cinematics, just like most of the fed only ones) then you should be able to do it within a quater of a year to half a year if you put the whole team on it. As a fed player there is enough content to wait for the kdf to be fleshed out.
The kdf problem will not be going away, you started so might as well finish then from then on no more fed based storys, or klingons just neutral stuff.
You can keep your money coming in with lock boxes, and cstore stuff so its not like your going to lose money if you set feds aside for awhile and do the klingon stuff. Which was suggested to be done by end of 2012 by d'angelo and stormshade, you even said there was work done on the 1-21 missions but put on hold for f2p, how much of that is done, 10%, 50%, how much, how much time would be needed to finish whats been started, you could break it up into chunks i.e 5 levels per season worth of kdf story missions (not saying content because you always think it means other things when we just want content to mean missions for kdf in the most sense).
Well thats my opinion anyhow.
Also im sick of when asked about the talks between you and pw you keep saying its in discussions, well this has been going on non stop, either get the talks to a conclusion or stop dragging it out as i dont see a end with the excuses of "in talks with pw" or "its been in discussion about kdf content (stop with content words and keep to what that is which is 1-21 missions). Sorry but discussions that go on this long just to us as the community (im guessing) makes it look like progress will never conclude and you can only do it so long and its been 2 years now.
What has been put in kdf is very small amount over 2 years, its just ridiculous.
Oh and you talked in the interview about klingons being fighting/monster type of faction, well yes the klingons are a warrior race but they have a deep culture which isnt just about fighting so i hope to see less mindless fighting missions etc just because there a warrior based culture.
Oh and with regards to pvp focus for season 6, well please remember that star trek isnt about fighting and wars its about exploration, it just isnt the type of game/setting for pvp so please do not invest too much time on pvp when im hoping most would agree, we would rather that effort be focused more on story, exploration instead and focus on npc encounter/conflicts instead of pvp.
Kirk: Dont believe them. Dont trust them.
Spock: They are dying.
Kirk: Let them die.
You can't compare it to for instance SWTOR because they have a production team 5-10 times the size of STO's as well as a $9 Million a month funding (before subscription).
STO is a great game, an amazing game when you factor in the size of the team compared to Bioware's.
The Dev's work so hard on it and to those who say they aren't working on Klingon content.. what do you think Alpha is?!
These things take time.
The Dev's have been burnt by saying what they're working on before when the schedule changed etc and they weren't able to complete what they were working on.
THere's always room for improvement, and when you look at the content that's come out since F2P hit, it's probably more than at any other time in the game's history.
I just recently started a new Klingon Character to reach BG. I'm loving it, so much more than I ever did before. There have been massive changes and improvements and they will keep on coming.
Guys and Gals, please think about what you're saying before you say it, the Dev's are people too and they work hard FOR YOU.
Keep up the good work and Happy First Contact Day :cool:
Nice summary.
Star Trek is ONE sided, the movies and TV series are all from the perspective of the Federation. They are the faction in focus, not the Klingons, Romulans or any of the gazillion random alien species introduced in every weekly episode. In fact in the majority of the episodes there are a new "Monster of the Week" (Buffy coined term), that introduces this weeks big bad, or in some cases, it spans several episodes. The MotW is at some point Klingons, Romulans, Hirogen, ect ect.
People are too stuck in the archaic "us vs them" two faction system, especially when it comes to conflict/PvP. It could just as well, and be done better, with a 1 faction setup.
Two faction systems are inherently flawed and seldom work well in MMORPGs. There are always issues which can't directly be solved elegantly through mechanics. SWTOR being the latest to portray those issues.
PvP aside, It might make more sense given the limited resources to revamp the current Federation missions to accept Klingon Empire players and get rid of the segregation of players. The dialog from the Klingon missions could be salvaged and re-used. All future content could focus on the un-easy truce/cooperation/alliance between the Empire and Federation for the sake of the future of the Quadrant or the galaxy vs the Undine, Borg, "Other monster of the week".
The 25th century war between the Klingon Empire and Federation seems to be mostly a Cryptic invention anyway, likely because they wanted PvP, and could therefor just as easily be dismissed as it was introduced. Source: STOWiki, Chronology, Memory Alpha, 25th Century, Memory Alpha, 24th Century.
If the goal is to have viable and healthy "end-game" PvP between two factions, how can you leave one faction cut in half and broken?
New players come into the game (that's why you all went F2P) ... and yet they don't even get to TOUCH the Klingon side of the game until 20 or so levels in.
That creates an artificial barrier for one of the two sides in PvP and skews the balance of PvP population heavily in favor of one side in the battle. In short, there's more feds than klingons to engage in end-game PvP.
So ... to swing this right back around to the topic at hand ... how do you plan to even make a healthy and viable end-game PvP experience when you only have half a faction to put up against the federation?
And finally my repeated question: What happened to all those resources that PWE promised to infuse into this game? Not just the hires were touted by the PR-speak. There was talk of money being dumped into this game's development. I mean it's already obvious to anyone who can count that there have been a couple of hires that have been neutralized by a couple of people leaving. So the "we're going to hire a bunch of new developers" thing hasn't worked out. But surely the money the dumped was put to good use? It can't possibly have been wasted on making the Galor and the keys to lockboxes?
LMAO! .... We warriors are often wise to listen to the Ladies of our respective and noble houses.
In the end, all of the Star Trek Empires are one faction. That's my overall point. Feds are just the one to broker that.
I haven't brought this up in a couple of years but, really, if I'd designed a Trek MMO:
- your empire/affiliation would be your MMO class. (Ie. Hunter, Priest, Ranger, Paladin in fantasy games)
- Science/Tactical/Engineering, etc. would be trees within the class (ie. Discipline, Shadow, Holy, Fury)
- Federation would be, say, a Tank/DPS/Healing hybrid with emphasis on engineering tricks and traps. Klingons would be Tank/DPS hybrid with more melee play, bleeds, and knockbacks. Romulans would be Healing/DPS hybrid with emphasis on stealth and sabotage.
- Questing would be mostly faction agnostic. Questgivers would NOT be superior officers generally but people sending distress calls, with opportunities to exploit the weak baked into certain empires.
- Raiding would generate chat threads like: Group for Infected forming. Have one Romulan, one Cardassian, looking for one Federation and two Klingons, ideally. Will settle for one Federation, one Klingon, and one Dominion.