You aren't accounting for the power sucking abilities of well built Sci/Carrier builds.
My fastest Infected Elite run ever had 1 carrier and 4 escorts. Had both transformers dead with more than 10 minutes left on the clock, and the tac cube lasted less than 30 seconds.
They key was the Carriers ability to suck ALL the power from a target, so NPC's like the normal cubes and tac cube (even the Gate) simply lost all their shields and just sat there unable to fire, allowing all the Escorts to hit the targets with their full DPS. The loss of the 5th Escort didn't matter, because even with 5 escorts you still won't be able to burn through the larger targets that quickly, and I've had dozens of all-Escort runs to back that up.
Now I have no idea how to perfect those power-drain builds, but every time I run a STF with someone using one of those setups its apparent how effective they are in improving the speed at which an STF can be completed.
First of all, posting times here isn't really relevant, I've killed the tac cube in 20 seconds and finished an optional with almost 12 minute on the clock. What does that mean? It means nothing, it means I had a bunch of tryhards go in with the specific goal to make their e-peen bigger.
2nd, I actually did address power siphoning and cc.
To summarize again, cc makes everyone's life easier, but it does not increase speed because 5 Escorts do not require cc to kill a tactical cube.
There is no loss to DPS because no one dies or is required to do anything but shoot and in emergencies, throw a heal on whoever has aggro, although personally I have not had that happen yet. 1 Escort can tank a tactical cube for at least 30 seconds at which point it's long since dead.
It is completely safe to just have 5 escorts sit there and spam their buttons at a tactical cube, it will mathematically go down faster barring a heavy torpedo hitting someone. Power siphon drones don't save you from that.
I'm not saying that having a science ship isn't useful or that it doesn't have it's place. Indeed if you read the entire post you'll note that I fully support science vessels.
I'm saying that mathematically it is faster to have 5 escorts and saying that having a science vessel increases your speed is incorrect. cc science vessels decrease difficulty. I would much rather have 1 cc science vessel and 4 escorts because even though I may optimally shave off a few minutes of time I know I wont have to worry about pressing my defensive buttons.
1 Escort can tank a tactical cube for at least 30 seconds at which point it's long since dead.
If you have a video of yourself tanking the final Tac Cube in ISE in your escort for 30+ secs, I'd love to see it to get an idea of the CDs, as I usually get obliterated quite fast (Tac/Fleet Escort).
BTW I managed to run the combat parser (version 0.1, version 0.2 just gives me an empty report window).
You should be very careful with the DPS values:
- it's missing stuff, the totals I get are lower than the ones I get from STOICs and from my own log parser (which closely matches STOICs. BTW). I don't think it's a problem with the source/owner thing (which should be fixed by setting the right option), it could be caused by the malformed lines which miss the attack type (but have the right internal type). Before you ask: the combat log provided by STO is barely decent, as it's missing a ton of important information. It's not a surprise for a combat logger which is some years old to be wrong.
- it does not give you the DPS value: the usual name for that value is DPS(e) which means "dps over the duration of the encounter", which is calculated as total damage / total encounter duration. Since the combat log is range-limited, this will overvalue your DPS(e) compared to that of the other players. A somewhat better approach is to use the real DPS, which is damage done / time spent in combat, that is less affected by the range problems (ally out of range => you see no damage, but you also don't see him in combat. The final result will still be wrong, but less than with DPS(e), if you really want reliable results, everyone should record a log and you should use each player's log to determine their DPS).
Note also that using DPS(e) instead of DPS makes it impossible to compare players unless the total duration of the instance was the same: for the same player (and damage output) a fast run with an organized group will always provide a higher DPS(e) than a pug group hitting the optional objective with 5 seconds left.
BTW I managed to run the combat parser (version 0.1, version 0.2 just gives me an empty report window).
You should be very careful with the DPS values:
- it's missing stuff, the totals I get are lower than the ones I get from STOICs and from my own log parser (which closely matches STOICs. BTW). I don't think it's a problem with the source/owner thing (which should be fixed by setting the right option), it could be caused by the malformed lines which miss the attack type (but have the right internal type). Before you ask: the combat log provided by STO is barely decent, as it's missing a ton of important information. It's not a surprise for a combat logger which is some years old to be wrong.
- it does not give you the DPS value: the usual name for that value is DPS(e) which means "dps over the duration of the encounter", which is calculated as total damage / total encounter duration. Since the combat log is range-limited, this will overvalue your DPS(e) compared to that of the other players. A somewhat better approach is to use the real DPS, which is damage done / time spent in combat, that is less affected by the range problems (ally out of range => you see no damage, but you also don't see him in combat. The final result will still be wrong, but less than with DPS(e), if you really want reliable results, everyone should record a log and you should use each player's log to determine their DPS).
Note also that using DPS(e) instead of DPS makes it impossible to compare players unless the total duration of the instance was the same: for the same player (and damage output) a fast run with an organized group will always provide a higher DPS(e) than a pug group hitting the optional objective with 5 seconds left.
If you have a better parser, you should consider sharing it so everyone can benefit from the increased accuracy.
I am aware that sometimes there are inconsistencies. That being said, comparing the Internal Log in a spreadsheet to the CombatLogParser, I've found the parser to be within a 5% accuracy range. As for damage sources, CombatLogParser 0.1 by default sums all source damage together and credits it to the owner.
i.e. If a science captain hits Photonic Fleet, the sum damage of that fleet will be added to his damage. Clicking on the outgoing damage child of the captain would show damage sources that they don't even have
If you right click on the encounter and click "Credit Dmg by Source" you can get an individualized breakdown. I do however, think that summing that damage up is the correct method.
Additionally, you'll note that the CombatLogParser by deault doesn't report shield damage, which is where major discrepancies occur and could also be where your discrepancies originate from.
Part of this because shields don't seem to count for aggro, and another part is because counting shield damage may possibly skew your damage numbers as shields have different resists than hull in PvP. (PvE nothing has resists from only Borg STF tests)
If you refer to the original post made on page 7, I have a specific paragraph talking about the problems with logging in general, DPS, time, etc. You'll notice that I do not advocate simply /CombatLog 1 and letting it run for the entire STF.
When I use /CombatLog, I try to log long fights, where buffs designed to spike dmg for a short time are minimzed so that I can get a good feel for what people's sustained DPS is. That usually means a boss fight, or even a generator if I just want to see how high the numbers can get.
This gives me a potential DPS, and then the rest of the equation is just trying to get as close to that value as possible.
Internal Combat Logging is actually really good about stopping the log as soon as combat is over. That being said I also manually /CombatLog 0 at the end of a fight in case residual dots are draining someone's DPS by extending time. Even then, I assume a 10% DPS variation in everyone's numbers due to mistimed rotations etc.
Finally, I haven't extensively tested range issues, but the only time it may have made a difference in STFs is the defenders in KASE and CSE. I have yet to see a major discrepancy caused by someone going out of range, and it has been a major worry for me since I started using /CombatLog. It may be an issue with settings, I haven't looked into it. Still, as previously noted, I don't often log entire STFs because the differing roles and strategies usually result in a lack of useful information.
Side Note: Will see about a video, I need to update encoding tools first T_T.
If you have a better parser, you should consider sharing it so everyone can benefit from the increased accuracy.
That was the idea from the start. I have a friend testing the latest version, which can actually be controlled by buttons instead of vodoo magic and the command line. I'll then clean the source and ready it for distribution (it's done using Qt4/free, which means GPL, which means you get the source code).
I am aware that sometimes there are inconsistencies. That being said, comparing the Internal Log in a spreadsheet to the CombatLogParser, I've found the parser to be within a 5% accuracy range. As for damage sources, CombatLogParser 0.1 by default sums all source damage together and credits it to the owner.
Since the total damage is just a sum of fields in the combat log, the match should be exact. At least if the totals stick to the only reliable data in the log, which means:
- damage fired (i.e. what your ship spits out)
- hull damage done (i.e. how many hull HP the target lost)
All the rest is lost in the misty haze of missing data..... (example in case: shield drains). Shield damage can be semi-guessed, any serious attempt to account for it would be a lot of work (and probably not 100% reliable).
Additionally, you'll note that the CombatLogParser by deault doesn't report shield damage, which is where major discrepancies occur and could also be where your discrepancies originate from.
Part of this because shields don't seem to count for aggro, and another part is because counting shield damage may possibly skew your damage numbers as shields have different resists than hull in PvP. (PvE nothing has resists from only Borg STF tests)
Yes, this could be the explanation. For my reports I provide both damage fired and damage done, with anything not going to hull damage being considered shield damage. Even if the values are approximate, I still find shield damage to be relevant.
When I use /CombatLog, I try to log long fights, where buffs designed to spike dmg for a short time are minimzed so that I can get a good feel for what people's sustained DPS is. That usually means a boss fight, or even a generator if I just want to see how high the numbers can get.
This basically means "never".... What we would need is a target dummy, i.e. a cube or something with infinite hull (or shields) that a group can fire on for some time to compute the DPS. I remember reading on the wiki that there's a passive cube in some of the episode missions, but I'm not there yet.
BTW for me the main aim was to have my damage spliit by ability, to see which weapons and skills are doing the most damage. It's only when I started to find that I was very (too) often top DPS/damage that I started to question the validity of the data. I may be good, but I'm definitely not THAT good. Running together with a friend and comparing the logs gives you an idea of how much things can go wrong. I've seen a deviation of 30%, but last time we stuck together and the difference was a lot smaller.
My program only cares about damage done/dps, and full statistics are given at the end, covering the entire log, and provides tools to manage your logs (backup, save statistics, etc.), the idea is that you run it for the duration of the combat/instance you care about and then move the log out of the way to avoid ending up with a file of 1Gb.... this means no splitting in separate combats, the totals are always for the full log.
Side Note: Will see about a video, I need to update encoding tools first T_T.
If you have a video of yourself tanking the final Tac Cube in ISE in your escort for 30+ secs, I'd love to see it to get an idea of the CDs, as I usually get obliterated quite fast (Tac/Fleet Escort).
I do it myself as well regularly. The important parts are as follows:
2x Uni resist consoles, 1x kinentic
Maco shield/deflector (i use mk 10)
borg engines/console/shield cap thingie
subspace device that boost resists
Boff abilities
2x E power to shields
1x Aux 2 Struc *this is an under-rated power IMHO*
1x Hazard Emitters
1x TSS
2x Tac Team
Skills: Max all that apply to hull/shield capacity & healing, and power insulators, at least 6 in shield power, warp efficiency/capacity, and at least 3 in aux power. Only need 3 in armor skills and those aren't really required.
Fly above cube and down on top of it point blank throttle at 1/2 or 1/4. Rotate boff abilities as common sense dictates (IE don't blow HE or TSS until you can gain mostly the full heal benefits, use others the second they are up). This can tank it for far longer than 30 seconds as well if needed. If you need to do a 'super tank' mode simply switch to nearly full aux power rest in shields go full throttle and circle strafe it, with your defense high you can tank it pretty much indefinitely barring a nasty torp hit then switch back to offensive while it pops a cruiser.
Hello out there Elite STF'ers and everyone else! Have you ever wondered why you just keep failing? Why your never finish first place in starbase 24 or why you can't manage to get the optionals in elite STF's? Let alone FINISH elite stfs? Fortunately I'm here to help you... The first thing I want you to realize, and more importantly, to accept, this one fact...
YOU SUCK. <--- this is not to insult you! Please keep reading WE ALL SUCKED AT ONE POINT.
Now take a deep breath because im here to help you. So lets get started!!!!!!
Like most people, you probibly don't believe me that your bad. So to get that out of the way your first step to succes is this. GET A DPS METER. That way I don't have to convince you that using 7 different types of beams IS A BIG NONO you can see it for yourself and you will be sure that I know MUCH more of what im talking about than you.
So you probibly asking "Salvation how do I get a DPS meter?!!!!! There are no addons in this game!!!!!" Well that's partially true. Fortunately we have something called a Combat Log Parser, it's not illegal, it's not a MOD or a ADDON it's a data calculator. So here is how you get your first STO DPS METER!
STEP 1 "GET A DPS METER"
1.) Download and install the latest version of Java
2.) Download and install the STO combat log parser - Removed. ~Alecto
3.) Create a combat log in Star Trek Online
a) Login and in the text menu type /combatlog 1
b) Get into combat for at least 1 second and do some damage to anything (space or ground it doesnt matter you need to do it so the log is created in the STO log file.
c) Find the combatlog (its wherever you saved STO on your harddrive in the LOGS file
d) Open your combatlogparser go to - File - Parse File - and Parse the CombatLog file in STO
e) Go into a Elite STF and you can start checking YOUR damage and EVERYONE elses damage
Note-- It tracks DPS, total damage done and a myriad of other things SO TAKE YOUR TIME TO UNDERSTAND IT. Hint-- After each STO or combat you can open your combat log - select all text and delete it then resave. If you reparse the file it gives you a FRESH set of data so your not overlapping STF instances.
********************** WHY YOU SHOULD GET A DPS METER - I started playing STO 3 weeks ago, after hitting 50 in 3 days and starting Elite STF's I knew I was sucking... after much research I found this DPS meter and started tweaking. I went from 800 DPS per Elite STF or about 1.5-2 million damage done to 7200 DPS and 15-18 MILLION DAMAGE DONE. IN STARBASE 24 I HAVE RANKED 1ST 43 TIMES IN A ROW. I have not seen a SINGLE person do more than HALF the DPS or total damage done in a Elite STF since my last tweak 1 week ago. I run 10-30 Elite STF's a day.************************************
Getting a DPS meter is the FIRST STEP to recognize your problems and fix them.
STEP 2 "WEAPON AND SKILL POINT OPTIMIZATION" Load Outs
You have two options for weapons load outs for ANY class on EVERY ship.
NOTE: This guide will only cover All Beam Weapons because it is the highest possible DPS/Damage layout. CANNONS + 1 TORP ARE STILL AWESOME JUST BUILD YOURSELF CORRECTLY.
1. All Beam Weapons (Max possible dps from 6k to 9 or 10k depending if your amazing)
or
2. Cannons + 1 Torp (Max possible 4.5k to 7k depending on skill note-- does have higher single target damage but doesnt come close in AOE) MAKE SURE YOU USE 1 TORP TAC CONSOLE. Weapons
Only viable weapon types to maximize damage-
1. Anti-proton beams and cannons - Best if you run Starbase 24 and Elite STF's and crossover into pvp.
2. Disruptor beams and cannons - Best for elite STF's will give your team a major damage bonus, works well in SB24's and pvp as well but it's better to do AP if your crossing over. note: (I have 2 XII borg sets... a AP and a Disruptor and i've tested their viability in crossover and specific.)
3. Phasor Beams - Great for elite STF's will lower DPS everywhere else (same damage as disruptors and slightly more than AP.)
--- No other energy types are viable and will result in a DPS/Damage loss. Sorry that's just the way it is, once again if you don't believe me test it.---
P.S.S - Using multiple energy types AKA "Shooting Rainbows" is the fastest way to do less than 500 dps per elite STF. Your tac consoles give you the brunt of your weapon damage. You get massive bonuses by using only 1 type of energy weapon (4x +28% to antiproton damage is NUTZ.... about 120% more damage...)
P.S.S.S Use only Quantum or Photon -- only run cannons if you have torp spread 3.
THESE ARE YOUR ONLY OPTIONS TO OPTIMIZE DPS AND DAMAGE. DO NOT RUN BEAM AND TORPS OR CANNONS AND BEAMS OR ALL CANNONS IF YOU DONT BELIEVE ME GET THE DPS METER AND RUN ELITE STF'S TO TEST--- I DONT HAVE TIME TO GIVE A DETAILED EXPLAINATION WHY. Skill Point Placement and BO skills
NOTE: YOUR SKILL POINT PLACEMENT IS A MASSIVE FACTOR IN DPS/DAMAGE... Optimizing my skill points (as much as I could figure out due to the fact i could only afford 1 respec with the dilithium I had saved since I started playing.) drew a 1k DPS difference thats about 3 MILLION extra damage PER elite STF.
Here is my profession, ship, weapon layout, skill point allocation and BO skills for my only toon a tac defiant retrofit beam boat.
******************THIS IS THE HIGHEST DAMAGE TAC ESCORT DEFIANT RETROFIT BUILD (MORE OR LESS) ********
Note: Recent patch made Beam Fire At Will able to miss. For a Tac Escort it is not significant ~200-400DPS... I don't know how it will affect other classes.
- DO NOT USE BEAM OVERLOAD
- DO NOT USE BEAM TARGET SUBSYSTEM
- If you use these it will TRIBBLE up your DPS
**** If you run a tac escort beam boat + UTILIZE A DPS METER and you have suggestions. Please make notes, POST WHAT DPS YOUR GETTING WITH YOUR BUILD/LAYOUT IN ONLY ELITE STF'S. IF YOU DO NOT RUN A DPS METER YOUR SUGGESTIONS ARE NOT VIABLE. It's nothing personal... it's just you have no proof...
NOTE: Use the skill planner to optimize FIRST damage SECOND survivability.
STEP 3 "EQUIPMENT - NOTE ONLY FOR TAC ESCORT DEFIANT RETROFIT"
- Set : XII Omega is the best
- Consoles:
2x Field Gen
Cloak Gen for DPS
4x whatever energy wep you use or 3x + 1 torp
EPS Flow
-- rest is up to you
OTHER THINGS TO NOTE ON:
@How you play is a major factor in DPS/Damage and Survivability. Main points.
The longer you live the more DPS you will do... I die 0-3x's max on Elite STF's as a retrofit defiant. Good players don't die. Focus on knowing how long you can survive VS situations EX: When a tac cube is targeting me I have 14 seconds before I hit evasive manuvers and fly out of range and come back as soon as it changes targets.
DEBUNKING THE COMMON MYTH - "A cruiser is better than a escort because you will live longer and do more damage over the long run"
TRUTH - Cruisers are great, they support and can tank, they don't do AS much damage as Defiants but that's not their role... and they can still do GREAT DPS ~~3k DPS is good 6k is GREAT for a Cruiser.
THERE IS NO ONE UBER CLASS - All of the classes in STO can do GREAT damage and pull their own weight. Sure the fastest elite STF I ever did was with 5 tac defiants (Infected /w 9:49 seconds left on optional) but it was HELL. + I have a Fleet member with a carrier that can do ~1.5 MILLION SHIELD DAMAGE IN 20 SECONDS... and DISABLE a tac cubes shields... thats 75k DPS over that 20 seconds.
DEBUNKING THE COMMON MYTH - "DPS calculators dont calculate my SKILL."
TRUTH - They do. Using DPS meters effectively will translate into you optimizing your class/skills/weapon layouts and combat techniques. If I didn't work on my survivability, combat awareness, broadsiding, time before engagement I WOULD NOT DO 7K DPS. Being skilled translates to a higher DPS/Damage done.
Results
I ran 5 elite STF PUG's between 2-3:45 today, and got the optional's 5x's in a row. How you might ask? Because when I go into each PUG i will...
1) Quickly explain what to do and how to do it.
2) I do as much damage as 2-4x the damage as regular players
3) My teammates in each of those elite stf's averaged about 2k DPS ( You will never get the optional if your teammates average 0-1.5k DPS -- which suprisingly happens alot even in elite STF's)
I can't remeber the last time I didn't get 1st place in starbase 21.
Even though I built specifically in PVE I almost ALWAYS win in PVP solos and pretty much always win in PVP team instances.
I am being told I am way outdoing myself with cannons than with beams. I like beams more and want to be better with them.
I run all AP dbb and AP arrays in back.
I have beam fire at will 3 and use it often as well as epw.
Also have APO APD And APA.
I use beam overload 3 when attacking a single target in range.
All weapons whether cannon load out or beams are mkxi with one Borg dbbxii
Sorry bout any typos doing this on my phone.
I ran combat parser this morn on last half of stf and was getting just over 3k dps with beams. Like I said my total damage according to my fleet buds parser is about 1mil less total when using beams.
I don't like cannons as much as beams but I'll be obligated to use them in fleet stfs so as not to gimp us.
Ps. I am using ur skill build with the minor mods suggested in this thread.
I am being told I am way outdoing myself with cannons than with beams. I like beams more and want to be better with them.
I run all AP dbb and AP arrays in back.
I have beam fire at will 3 and use it often as well as epw.
Also have APO APD And APA.
I use beam overload 3 when attacking a single target in range.
All weapons whether cannon load out or beams are mkxi with one Borg dbbxii
Sorry bout any typos doing this on my phone.
I ran combat parser this morn on last half of stf and was getting just over 3k dps with beams. Like I said my total damage according to my fleet buds parser is about 1mil less total when using beams.
I don't like cannons as much as beams but I'll be obligated to use them in fleet stfs so as not to gimp us.
Ps. I am using ur skill build with the minor mods suggested in this thread.
Any help would be great.
Oh and I am way better in pvp with beams.
APA? So you are a tac? Are you flying an escort? or a raptor?
If so, you should be using DBBs in front and Turrets in rear for STFs. Drop BO, just use BFAW even for single targets and pick up APB (CSV1 as well if you can spare). That is if you must use DBBs.
Cannons are still my prefered in STFs and easy to build Boff skills around for DPS.
Truth be told, I have beaten full AP beams tac escorts in DPS within STFs with a newly capped rainbow ship runing DBB/DHCs/Turrets/Quantum with gear ranging from white MKVIII. It depends on how you play around your build too.
I do it myself as well regularly. The important parts are as follows:
[....]
Thanks for your answer. I've a similar setup, but with more balanced resist consoles. I also run less survival abilities, it's probably why I tend to pop sooner (I use a single tac team and a single EPower to Shields).
I don't have as much survival skills as you do, which may contribute to why I tend not to survive as long. It also feels quite random, at times I've been able to manage the entire duration of the cube, at times it's just like it presses the "kill player" button, and I'm torn apart in something like 10s, regardless of whatever CDs I've on..... I should probably dig deeper into the logs to see what exactly kills me. Whatever the case, it's light years away from eng/cruiser in full tanking mode, where you can also eat Donatra's salvos.
Truth be told, I have beaten full AP beams tac escorts in DPS within STFs with a newly capped rainbow ship runing DBB/DHCs/Turrets/Quantum with gear ranging from white MKVIII. It depends on how you play around your build too.
Not to repeat myself, but this is why you should be careful when playing with combat parsers and make sure you know the limits of the logger. You 1st link is KA (and there's another as well), where total inflicted damage can be clipped due to range issues. I ALWAYS come ahead of the others in KA in damage done, simply becuse when moving around there's always some time where I'm far from some player and his damage is not getting recorded in my combat log. The only instance where this (usually) is not a problem is Infected, but there the damage may be skewed due to mass AoE of spheres after killing one transformer, which, frankly, is mostly irrelevant DPS, as the critical thing is killing fast the transformers and the final gateway+cube (which can be a nightmare if it's not tanked and keeps blowing up the DPS, if you have a competent tank you can sit at 5km and pewpew with muchomucho dps increase).
If you really want to compare damage, you should have the other players record a log and ask them to post it somewhere, so that you can get the full numbers. Also, as someone correctly indicated, combatlogparser does not take into account damage to shields, this has the perverse effect that if you wait for the others to drain shields and activate your CDs *just after* you'll end up out-dpsing them.
BTW I've been running cannons, I'll give a try at beams as soon as I can get a decent set of them, I was planning to go full arrays and abuse the turn speed of the escort for full flanking, the torpedo range almost covers the rear firing angle, so with some creative maneuvering at the right time it should be possible to both abuse the arrays and also land torpedos. What I dislike of beams is the lack of single-target CDs: beam overload is very crappy compared to rapid fire.
I know of the distance limitation in KASE, if I log a game where I'm handling probes on one side with another on the other side, the guy's DPS is usually below 1K. Hence the log is best for comparison amongst the designated DPSers moving as a group. It is still relevant as a comparison and those are what I'm referencing.
As for ISE, everyone is in range and goes all out DPS. Spread vs single target. Effective DPS is still DPS. In this case, we won't talk about supporting roles as much since they fall out of the comparison. Just compare your own DPS against the other high DPSers in your team for a relative standing. When you go into pointless sementics much less deaths (respawn cooldowns) etc, it goes slightly off from that main focus which is your own relative performance.
I did mention in an earlier post that this is at best relative performance within a group running the STF. Going into sementics to define this as definite DPS isn't my purpose really.
Actually, I think the closest that someone would get to a truly accurate DPS count would be to run a 'firing range' simulation.
Go to the Foundry. Make a mission where there is one stationary object, a Tac Cube or what have you that does not fire and has no shields- just sits there. Launch the mission and start firing on it. Start the combat logger after you have started your attack. Continue the attack untill you have cycled through all your powers at least twice or three times or untill the cube pops whichever comes first. Stop the combat log mid-fire or immediately when the Cube explodes.
After a few times of doing this with multiple setups, ranges, skill sets, etc. I believe this might be the closest diagnostic of a ship's DPS that you would be able to measure.
Keep in mind that a ship's DPS, while important, IS NOT the only measure of effectiveness. All the DPS in the world means nothing when you're tractored, subsystem targeted, swarmed, drained, plasmaed or sub-nuked'.
Hence I emphasize on performance rather than obssess over DPS. The new respawn colldown in STF, I hope, will encourage players to not go for huge alpha strike builds that go out in a ball of flames after.
Actually, I think the closest that someone would get to a truly accurate DPS count would be to run a 'firing range' simulation.
Go to the Foundry. Make a mission where there is one stationary object, a Tac Cube or what have you that does not fire and has no shields- just sits there
My knowledge of the foundry is very limited, but I went ahead and tried. It seems like you have no control on NPC stats/behaviour, so if you put in a Cube, it'll be a standard Borg cupe wanting to kill you. Actually, it seems like you can only use predefined ship groups (probably to make the missions level-scalable).
Only way to see your optimum true DPS is in KA go blast one of the generators or whatever there called with 600k+ HP. Time it, and do the math, there is your personal true DPS.
As far as tanking goes, it all depends on how many debuffs are on the target for how long you will last. If you got a decent carrier, or some people packing subsystem targeting, tac cubes can't fight their way out of a paper bag. I do not trust PuGs though, so I setup my escort to survive. Granted I also have a defiant build I'm working the kinks out of that hull tanks, so far he soloed a cube and tanked a tac cube for a spell, but I'm not sure yet if he is viable but it sure is fun! Taking a HY torp to the face(and surviving) just to deal the splash damage to the cube gave me a giggle.
In my personal opinion any PUG STF build needs to meet the following requirements:
- Ability to solo a cube and/or several spheres
- Ability to kill 4 bop's in cure without breaking a sweat, and 4 probes in KA without trouble.
- Ability to deal significant dps to unshielded targets
- Some force multiplier capability. This can be Attack Pattern Beta(s) (increases team damage), tyken's rift&other power drain (turn targets into panzies) or anything else you can think of that will enhance the entire team's capabilities including healing and tanking. However, these abilities do not replace your personal DPS potential, you still need to have that in addition.
If you can do all 4 of those things your build is solid. Otherwise I would never take it into a PUG STF personally, I don't care if you claim it does 10k DPS because it is far too relative.
Great thread! Very informative.
I'm going to try the parser next time I go on.
I also run a defiant R, and currently use phaser weapons. I actually mix canons and beams tho.
I use a quad cannon, DHC, Dual beam, and a Quantum up front, with beam, turret and either a second beam or turret in the trunk. Sometimes I play with the breen Transpahsic cluster torp.
Tac consoles: 4X phaser relays.
The reason for this particular weapons lay out is because I like to stay on the move. Always have engines to the max but aux power set to weapons.
Since the defiant can't take too much punishment, I feel it's better to keep moving from target to target, hit hard once with everything up front, then leave a going away present behind (cluster torp)
I may not be maxing my DPS, but I sure as hell am having fun!
Great thread! Very informative.
I'm going to try the parser next time I go on.
I also run a defiant R, and currently use phaser weapons. I actually mix canons and beams tho.
I use a quad cannon, DHC, Dual beam, and a Quantum up front, with beam, turret and either a second beam or turret in the trunk. Sometimes I play with the breen Transpahsic cluster torp.
Tac consoles: 4X phaser relays.
The reason for this particular weapons lay out is because I like to stay on the move. Always have engines to the max but aux power set to weapons.
Since the defiant can't take too much punishment, I feel it's better to keep moving from target to target, hit hard once with everything up front, then leave a going away present behind (cluster torp)
I may not be maxing my DPS, but I sure as hell am having fun!
Dont worry, hes not maximizing his DPS either. All a FAW-scort really excels at is putting AP B 3/2 on everything in a 10 km radius and keeping it there as long as possible.
And, if I remember correctly, hes using two beta 1s anyway ...
That, and he types like some sort of motivational/self-help conference speaker. Lots of flash, not much substance.
Great thread! Very informative.
I'm going to try the parser next time I go on.
I also run a defiant R, and currently use phaser weapons. I actually mix canons and beams tho.
I use a quad cannon, DHC, Dual beam, and a Quantum up front, with beam, turret and either a second beam or turret in the trunk. Sometimes I play with the breen Transpahsic cluster torp.
Tac consoles: 4X phaser relays.
The reason for this particular weapons lay out is because I like to stay on the move. Always have engines to the max but aux power set to weapons.
Since the defiant can't take too much punishment, I feel it's better to keep moving from target to target, hit hard once with everything up front, then leave a going away present behind (cluster torp)
I may not be maxing my DPS, but I sure as hell am having fun!
I tried the Breen cluster torp in Stf's, it really doesn't help. You would think since it hits so hard that it would, but it takes forever to fire it again, and you can't use spread with it.
I also ran with a Dual beam in front for Overload until I read this thread. I do so much more dps now with 2 DHC, Quad, Quantum up front, and 3 turrets in the back.
You really don't need a going away present in the back b/c most of the small stuff is dead b4 you pass, it might help against cubes but most of your enemies are probes, spheres, and small Klingon stuff.
All the tips in this thread really helped me round out my build, I'm glad I stumbled across it...
Very interesting post. I would recommend that you state that this is a PvE build; if anyone goes into PvP with it, that 900 BILLION ZILLION dps will drop to near 0, as you will be rather quickly destroyed (once your RSP drops or is SNBed) and laughed at for having a beam boat escort (my friend tried it, it doesn't work. No burst). However, in PvE, this build would work.
Just a few points:
Flow Capacitors: Put some points in here. You gain quite a few more points of shield-stripping per shot for minimal cost, since you run the Omega set.
Efficiency: 9 points is pointless; 6 would be better. you gain maybe 1-2 points of power when the skill points should go into Power Insulators (against TachBeam) and Shield Systems
Hull Repair: You have 1 weak hull heal, and passive hull heal isn't very strong. Take out 3 points from that and put them into Shield Emitters. You have a stronger shield heal (TSS II) and it slightly increases your RSP
You currently have no defense against Tractor Beams. I assume you get within 5 km to maximize damage, yet if a Sphere or Cube grabs you with a Tractor, you are dead. Perhaps an Attack Pattern Omega, or at least points in Inertial Dampers
Even though I built specifically in PVE I almost ALWAYS win in PVP solos and pretty much always win in PVP team instances.
Clearly we are underestimating the power of his FaW-escort in pvp... NOT. There's a reason that FaW-escorts are not considered pvp viable; they put out raw suppression damage, but don't have the burst to actually kill anything. Doing a little bit of damage to the entire enemy team won't get you anywhere. There's a reason that the game's top pvp escort pilots run all-cannon builds. When you can get more kills / DPS in a pvp match than folks like Aytanhi or MT, I'll be willing to listen to your claims of having a good pvp escort build.
Yes, I realize that I'm making some pretty harsh statements about the efficacy of your build. However, I'm more than willing to back up these statements in either a 1v1 duel or a PvP team match if you can get a team together; maybe with two or other escorts using your build. I'm sure that my pvp fleet would be happy to take on such a team and witness the full firepower of such an escort build.
PS: You really need to stop leaning on the CAPS LOCK key in your original post, it makes my eyes sore.
Even though I built specifically in PVE I almost ALWAYS win in PVP solos and pretty much always win in PVP team instances.
Aha, I missed this. FaW is OP in 1v1s. You fire 1 extra beam from each weapon, plus it deals more damage. FaW is also OP in 2v2s, as you hit both targets with 1 extra beam from each weapon. However, in a team setting, that damage is split nearly evenly among 5 targets. It isn't enough killing power to run 5 ships with suppression, and running 2 escorts doesn't always work out so well (too squishy).
Oh, and this guy above me is the friend I mentioned who tried the FaW boat/
and laughed at for having a beam boat escort (my friend tried it, it doesn't work. No burst). However, in PvE, this build would work.
I used to use Dual Beam Bank with a small front arc on my cruiser with FaW. Surely that setup on an Escort counts as a beam boat with burst damage as due to the weapon arc all the FaW gets focused on 1 target most of the time. I also fail to see how Beam overlord is not classed as burst damage.
I used to use Dual Beam Bank with a small front arc on my cruiser with FaW. Surely that setup on an Escort counts as a beam boat with burst damage as due to the weapon arc all the FaW gets focused on 1 target most of the time. I also fail to see how Beam overlord is not classed as burst damage.
Beam Overload is most definitely burst damage. However, you only require 1 beam for that. A "beam boat" uses all beams (7 in this case). The best damage for this would be 4 Beam Arrays fore and 3 aft, with broadsiding as you primary tactic so you can hit your opponent with all 7 beams at once. This strategy doesn't provide much burst damage (it provides plenty of damage for sure, just not burst). Using 4 DBBs and 3 Beam Arrays, you actually deal less damage against a given target, as you are only using 4 beams against the target, which isn't nearly as much damage as you can get with 4 DHCs and 3 Turrets, for example. It doesn't uses the strengths of the escort effectively. Therefore, a 3 DHC, 3 Turret, 1 DBB setup with Beam Overload would be a better setup if you want to use beams, but currently the favorite setup in PvP is 4 DHCs and 3 Turrets.
Cruisers are better suited for a sustained dps role, due to poor turning, meaning they can't batter 1 enemy as well, so why not have them batter all enemies, and high survivability, which means they can stay in a fight long enough to actually deal sustained dps. They also have the resources to manage the power loss of firing all beams at once (use EPtW) without losing survivability. The OP's build uses EPtW, but that ensign slot would be better used in PvP for EPtS, meaning he has lower weapon power for his beams, lowering his overall dps.
And the only cruisers I would recommend any DBBs on would be the Excelsior, the Negh'var, and the Vor'cha, but their use is limited. You want to be able to hit a target with as many weapons at once as you can, and only aft Turrets and all beam arrays let you do that, and 4 DBBs and 4 Turrets with FaW isn't maximizing damage.
Again, PvE is a different beast. But generally a PvP build works in PvE (minus sci ships at the moment, but the Grav Well buff on Tribble atm may change that). It may not be max dps, but it will definitely carry a pug in Infected Elite. I've never had an issue. Might take a bit of work, but it can be done.
"Using 4 DBBs and 3 Beam Arrays, you actually deal less damage against a given target, as you are only using 4 beams against the target, which isn't nearly as much damage as you can get with 4 DHCs and 3 Turrets, for example. It doesn't uses the strengths of the escort effectively
I see your point about beam overlord but I am still not as convinced about beams. Yes turrets are better but beams do not seem that far behind. We are only talking 100dps ish difference. 4 beams with FaW out damage 4 DHCs (*). Looking at the math 4 beams with 3 turrets is a pretty good match against 4 DHCs and 3 turrets. Saying that I prefer x2 triobalt mines and x1 other mine in the rears which keeps the front energy very high but why not mix beams and turrets at least in the front/rear slots. I see why you do not mix front slots.
(* Assuming due to the arc of 90 you get all beams on same target)
I see your point about beam overlord but I am still not as convinced about beams. Yes turrets are better but beams do not seem that far behind. We are only talking 100dps ish difference. 4 beams with FaW out damage 4 DHCs (*). Looking at the math 4 beams with 3 turrets is a pretty good match against 4 DHCs and 3 turrets. Saying that I prefer x2 triobalt mines and x1 other mine in the rears which keeps the front energy very high but why not mix beams and turrets at least in the front/rear slots. I see why you do not mix front slots.
(* Assuming due to the arc of 90 you get all beams on same target)
Talking pure dps is great, but you have to consider skills as well. The amount of damage dealt by DHCs with Cannon Rapid Fire III is greater against 1 target than 4 DBBs with FaW III. If you take into account any Turrets in the rear, you gain extra damage against that target that is increased by the same skill used with your DHCs. All of this assumes you only have 1-2 targets in your firing arc with FaW. If you get 3 (very possible in PvP), then your damage against your target decreases by about 1/3. Any mines or pets TRIBBLE this number up even more, making a FaW escort ineffective against Klingons and soon Feds, with the Caitian carrier. 90 degrees is a wide arc; you can catch quite a bit in it.
Another thing to consider about FaW is the actual uptime of the skill. The duration is 10 seconds, and the cooldown is 20 seconds, but the shared cooldown (running a second FaW) is 20 seconds. This means you run FaW every 20 seconds for 10 seconds: 50% uptime. In the downtime, your DBBs don't deal very much damage, numbers much lower than that of DHCs. Now with CRF, you have the same 10 second duration, but it is only 5 seconds to your second CRF. You have 66% uptime, with superior damage in the downtime.
As for the rear slots, I actual run a single beam array aft with 2 turrets, because it keeps my weapon power high enough while increasing my damage in the side and aft arcs. But there's a point where trying to minimize power drain starts to lower your dps, and I think 6 weapons running at the same time is the cutoff without extra help (EPtW, for example). I've also been trying out 3 DHCs and 1 DBB in front, but I have mixed feelings about this. The DBB is just there to lower the power drain while providing a decent amount of forward damage, but I don't think it contributes too much. Perhaps a DC with 3 DHCs...
Talking pure dps is great, but you have to consider skills as well. The amount of damage dealt by DHCs with Cannon Rapid Fire III is greater against 1 target than 4 DBBs with FaW III.
No its not, 4DBBs do the greater damage with FaW III over 4 DHC's with rapid fire III. It is only when you add in rapid fire rear turrets that DHC catch up and overtake by a small amount assuming weapon power doesnt lower damage to much from rapid fire.
Comments
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=4150455&postcount=67
Search is your friend
First of all, posting times here isn't really relevant, I've killed the tac cube in 20 seconds and finished an optional with almost 12 minute on the clock. What does that mean? It means nothing, it means I had a bunch of tryhards go in with the specific goal to make their e-peen bigger.
2nd, I actually did address power siphoning and cc.
To summarize again, cc makes everyone's life easier, but it does not increase speed because 5 Escorts do not require cc to kill a tactical cube.
There is no loss to DPS because no one dies or is required to do anything but shoot and in emergencies, throw a heal on whoever has aggro, although personally I have not had that happen yet. 1 Escort can tank a tactical cube for at least 30 seconds at which point it's long since dead.
It is completely safe to just have 5 escorts sit there and spam their buttons at a tactical cube, it will mathematically go down faster barring a heavy torpedo hitting someone. Power siphon drones don't save you from that.
I'm not saying that having a science ship isn't useful or that it doesn't have it's place. Indeed if you read the entire post you'll note that I fully support science vessels.
I'm saying that mathematically it is faster to have 5 escorts and saying that having a science vessel increases your speed is incorrect.
cc science vessels decrease difficulty. I would much rather have 1 cc science vessel and 4 escorts because even though I may optimally shave off a few minutes of time I know I wont have to worry about pressing my defensive buttons.
Ah, thanks. I didn't think to search the forums, only the web.
-Quiiliitiila
If you have a video of yourself tanking the final Tac Cube in ISE in your escort for 30+ secs, I'd love to see it to get an idea of the CDs, as I usually get obliterated quite fast (Tac/Fleet Escort).
You should be very careful with the DPS values:
- it's missing stuff, the totals I get are lower than the ones I get from STOICs and from my own log parser (which closely matches STOICs. BTW). I don't think it's a problem with the source/owner thing (which should be fixed by setting the right option), it could be caused by the malformed lines which miss the attack type (but have the right internal type). Before you ask: the combat log provided by STO is barely decent, as it's missing a ton of important information. It's not a surprise for a combat logger which is some years old to be wrong.
- it does not give you the DPS value: the usual name for that value is DPS(e) which means "dps over the duration of the encounter", which is calculated as total damage / total encounter duration. Since the combat log is range-limited, this will overvalue your DPS(e) compared to that of the other players. A somewhat better approach is to use the real DPS, which is damage done / time spent in combat, that is less affected by the range problems (ally out of range => you see no damage, but you also don't see him in combat. The final result will still be wrong, but less than with DPS(e), if you really want reliable results, everyone should record a log and you should use each player's log to determine their DPS).
Note also that using DPS(e) instead of DPS makes it impossible to compare players unless the total duration of the instance was the same: for the same player (and damage output) a fast run with an organized group will always provide a higher DPS(e) than a pug group hitting the optional objective with 5 seconds left.
If you have a better parser, you should consider sharing it so everyone can benefit from the increased accuracy.
I am aware that sometimes there are inconsistencies. That being said, comparing the Internal Log in a spreadsheet to the CombatLogParser, I've found the parser to be within a 5% accuracy range. As for damage sources, CombatLogParser 0.1 by default sums all source damage together and credits it to the owner.
i.e. If a science captain hits Photonic Fleet, the sum damage of that fleet will be added to his damage. Clicking on the outgoing damage child of the captain would show damage sources that they don't even have
If you right click on the encounter and click "Credit Dmg by Source" you can get an individualized breakdown. I do however, think that summing that damage up is the correct method.
Additionally, you'll note that the CombatLogParser by deault doesn't report shield damage, which is where major discrepancies occur and could also be where your discrepancies originate from.
Part of this because shields don't seem to count for aggro, and another part is because counting shield damage may possibly skew your damage numbers as shields have different resists than hull in PvP. (PvE nothing has resists from only Borg STF tests)
If you refer to the original post made on page 7, I have a specific paragraph talking about the problems with logging in general, DPS, time, etc. You'll notice that I do not advocate simply /CombatLog 1 and letting it run for the entire STF.
When I use /CombatLog, I try to log long fights, where buffs designed to spike dmg for a short time are minimzed so that I can get a good feel for what people's sustained DPS is. That usually means a boss fight, or even a generator if I just want to see how high the numbers can get.
This gives me a potential DPS, and then the rest of the equation is just trying to get as close to that value as possible.
Internal Combat Logging is actually really good about stopping the log as soon as combat is over. That being said I also manually /CombatLog 0 at the end of a fight in case residual dots are draining someone's DPS by extending time. Even then, I assume a 10% DPS variation in everyone's numbers due to mistimed rotations etc.
Finally, I haven't extensively tested range issues, but the only time it may have made a difference in STFs is the defenders in KASE and CSE. I have yet to see a major discrepancy caused by someone going out of range, and it has been a major worry for me since I started using /CombatLog. It may be an issue with settings, I haven't looked into it. Still, as previously noted, I don't often log entire STFs because the differing roles and strategies usually result in a lack of useful information.
Side Note: Will see about a video, I need to update encoding tools first T_T.
That was the idea from the start. I have a friend testing the latest version, which can actually be controlled by buttons instead of vodoo magic and the command line. I'll then clean the source and ready it for distribution (it's done using Qt4/free, which means GPL, which means you get the source code).
Since the total damage is just a sum of fields in the combat log, the match should be exact. At least if the totals stick to the only reliable data in the log, which means:
- damage fired (i.e. what your ship spits out)
- hull damage done (i.e. how many hull HP the target lost)
All the rest is lost in the misty haze of missing data..... (example in case: shield drains). Shield damage can be semi-guessed, any serious attempt to account for it would be a lot of work (and probably not 100% reliable).
Yes, this could be the explanation. For my reports I provide both damage fired and damage done, with anything not going to hull damage being considered shield damage. Even if the values are approximate, I still find shield damage to be relevant.
This basically means "never"....
BTW for me the main aim was to have my damage spliit by ability, to see which weapons and skills are doing the most damage. It's only when I started to find that I was very (too) often top DPS/damage that I started to question the validity of the data. I may be good, but I'm definitely not THAT good. Running together with a friend and comparing the logs gives you an idea of how much things can go wrong. I've seen a deviation of 30%, but last time we stuck together and the difference was a lot smaller.
My program only cares about damage done/dps, and full statistics are given at the end, covering the entire log, and provides tools to manage your logs (backup, save statistics, etc.), the idea is that you run it for the duration of the combat/instance you care about and then move the log out of the way to avoid ending up with a file of 1Gb.... this means no splitting in separate combats, the totals are always for the full log.
Hehe, same here
What?!
/10char
I do it myself as well regularly. The important parts are as follows:
2x Uni resist consoles, 1x kinentic
Maco shield/deflector (i use mk 10)
borg engines/console/shield cap thingie
subspace device that boost resists
Boff abilities
2x E power to shields
1x Aux 2 Struc *this is an under-rated power IMHO*
1x Hazard Emitters
1x TSS
2x Tac Team
Skills: Max all that apply to hull/shield capacity & healing, and power insulators, at least 6 in shield power, warp efficiency/capacity, and at least 3 in aux power. Only need 3 in armor skills and those aren't really required.
Fly above cube and down on top of it point blank throttle at 1/2 or 1/4. Rotate boff abilities as common sense dictates (IE don't blow HE or TSS until you can gain mostly the full heal benefits, use others the second they are up). This can tank it for far longer than 30 seconds as well if needed. If you need to do a 'super tank' mode simply switch to nearly full aux power rest in shields go full throttle and circle strafe it, with your defense high you can tank it pretty much indefinitely barring a nasty torp hit then switch back to offensive while it pops a cruiser.
http://malicia.straygenius.com/wiki/index.php?title=STO_Integrated_Combat_Software
Not sure how well it works now as the coder for it hasn't been seen in a while in STO.
So it may well be out of date.
So what am I doing wrong?
I am being told I am way outdoing myself with cannons than with beams. I like beams more and want to be better with them.
I run all AP dbb and AP arrays in back.
I have beam fire at will 3 and use it often as well as epw.
Also have APO APD And APA.
I use beam overload 3 when attacking a single target in range.
All weapons whether cannon load out or beams are mkxi with one Borg dbbxii
Sorry bout any typos doing this on my phone.
I ran combat parser this morn on last half of stf and was getting just over 3k dps with beams. Like I said my total damage according to my fleet buds parser is about 1mil less total when using beams.
I don't like cannons as much as beams but I'll be obligated to use them in fleet stfs so as not to gimp us.
Ps. I am using ur skill build with the minor mods suggested in this thread.
Any help would be great.
Oh and I am way better in pvp with beams.
If so, you should be using DBBs in front and Turrets in rear for STFs. Drop BO, just use BFAW even for single targets and pick up APB (CSV1 as well if you can spare). That is if you must use DBBs.
Cannons are still my prefered in STFs and easy to build Boff skills around for DPS.
Truth be told, I have beaten full AP beams tac escorts in DPS within STFs with a newly capped rainbow ship runing DBB/DHCs/Turrets/Quantum with gear ranging from white MKVIII. It depends on how you play around your build too.
Thanks for your answer. I've a similar setup, but with more balanced resist consoles. I also run less survival abilities, it's probably why I tend to pop sooner (I use a single tac team and a single EPower to Shields).
I don't have as much survival skills as you do, which may contribute to why I tend not to survive as long. It also feels quite random, at times I've been able to manage the entire duration of the cube, at times it's just like it presses the "kill player" button, and I'm torn apart in something like 10s, regardless of whatever CDs I've on..... I should probably dig deeper into the logs to see what exactly kills me. Whatever the case, it's light years away from eng/cruiser in full tanking mode, where you can also eat Donatra's salvos.
Not to repeat myself, but this is why you should be careful when playing with combat parsers and make sure you know the limits of the logger. You 1st link is KA (and there's another as well), where total inflicted damage can be clipped due to range issues. I ALWAYS come ahead of the others in KA in damage done, simply becuse when moving around there's always some time where I'm far from some player and his damage is not getting recorded in my combat log. The only instance where this (usually) is not a problem is Infected, but there the damage may be skewed due to mass AoE of spheres after killing one transformer, which, frankly, is mostly irrelevant DPS, as the critical thing is killing fast the transformers and the final gateway+cube (which can be a nightmare if it's not tanked and keeps blowing up the DPS, if you have a competent tank you can sit at 5km and pewpew with muchomucho dps increase).
If you really want to compare damage, you should have the other players record a log and ask them to post it somewhere, so that you can get the full numbers. Also, as someone correctly indicated, combatlogparser does not take into account damage to shields, this has the perverse effect that if you wait for the others to drain shields and activate your CDs *just after* you'll end up out-dpsing them.
BTW I've been running cannons, I'll give a try at beams as soon as I can get a decent set of them, I was planning to go full arrays and abuse the turn speed of the escort for full flanking, the torpedo range almost covers the rear firing angle, so with some creative maneuvering at the right time it should be possible to both abuse the arrays and also land torpedos. What I dislike of beams is the lack of single-target CDs: beam overload is very crappy compared to rapid fire.
I know of the distance limitation in KASE, if I log a game where I'm handling probes on one side with another on the other side, the guy's DPS is usually below 1K. Hence the log is best for comparison amongst the designated DPSers moving as a group. It is still relevant as a comparison and those are what I'm referencing.
As for ISE, everyone is in range and goes all out DPS. Spread vs single target. Effective DPS is still DPS. In this case, we won't talk about supporting roles as much since they fall out of the comparison. Just compare your own DPS against the other high DPSers in your team for a relative standing. When you go into pointless sementics much less deaths (respawn cooldowns) etc, it goes slightly off from that main focus which is your own relative performance.
I did mention in an earlier post that this is at best relative performance within a group running the STF. Going into sementics to define this as definite DPS isn't my purpose really.
Go to the Foundry. Make a mission where there is one stationary object, a Tac Cube or what have you that does not fire and has no shields- just sits there. Launch the mission and start firing on it. Start the combat logger after you have started your attack. Continue the attack untill you have cycled through all your powers at least twice or three times or untill the cube pops whichever comes first. Stop the combat log mid-fire or immediately when the Cube explodes.
After a few times of doing this with multiple setups, ranges, skill sets, etc. I believe this might be the closest diagnostic of a ship's DPS that you would be able to measure.
Keep in mind that a ship's DPS, while important, IS NOT the only measure of effectiveness. All the DPS in the world means nothing when you're tractored, subsystem targeted, swarmed, drained, plasmaed or sub-nuked'.
My knowledge of the foundry is very limited, but I went ahead and tried. It seems like you have no control on NPC stats/behaviour, so if you put in a Cube, it'll be a standard Borg cupe wanting to kill you. Actually, it seems like you can only use predefined ship groups (probably to make the missions level-scalable).
As far as tanking goes, it all depends on how many debuffs are on the target for how long you will last. If you got a decent carrier, or some people packing subsystem targeting, tac cubes can't fight their way out of a paper bag. I do not trust PuGs though, so I setup my escort to survive. Granted I also have a defiant build I'm working the kinks out of that hull tanks, so far he soloed a cube and tanked a tac cube for a spell, but I'm not sure yet if he is viable but it sure is fun! Taking a HY torp to the face(and surviving) just to deal the splash damage to the cube gave me a giggle.
In my personal opinion any PUG STF build needs to meet the following requirements:
- Ability to solo a cube and/or several spheres
- Ability to kill 4 bop's in cure without breaking a sweat, and 4 probes in KA without trouble.
- Ability to deal significant dps to unshielded targets
- Some force multiplier capability. This can be Attack Pattern Beta(s) (increases team damage), tyken's rift&other power drain (turn targets into panzies) or anything else you can think of that will enhance the entire team's capabilities including healing and tanking. However, these abilities do not replace your personal DPS potential, you still need to have that in addition.
If you can do all 4 of those things your build is solid. Otherwise I would never take it into a PUG STF personally, I don't care if you claim it does 10k DPS because it is far too relative.
I'm going to try the parser next time I go on.
I also run a defiant R, and currently use phaser weapons. I actually mix canons and beams tho.
I use a quad cannon, DHC, Dual beam, and a Quantum up front, with beam, turret and either a second beam or turret in the trunk. Sometimes I play with the breen Transpahsic cluster torp.
Tac consoles: 4X phaser relays.
The reason for this particular weapons lay out is because I like to stay on the move. Always have engines to the max but aux power set to weapons.
Since the defiant can't take too much punishment, I feel it's better to keep moving from target to target, hit hard once with everything up front, then leave a going away present behind (cluster torp)
I may not be maxing my DPS, but I sure as hell am having fun!
Dont worry, hes not maximizing his DPS either. All a FAW-scort really excels at is putting AP B 3/2 on everything in a 10 km radius and keeping it there as long as possible.
And, if I remember correctly, hes using two beta 1s anyway ...
That, and he types like some sort of motivational/self-help conference speaker. Lots of flash, not much substance.
I tried the Breen cluster torp in Stf's, it really doesn't help. You would think since it hits so hard that it would, but it takes forever to fire it again, and you can't use spread with it.
I also ran with a Dual beam in front for Overload until I read this thread. I do so much more dps now with 2 DHC, Quad, Quantum up front, and 3 turrets in the back.
You really don't need a going away present in the back b/c most of the small stuff is dead b4 you pass, it might help against cubes but most of your enemies are probes, spheres, and small Klingon stuff.
All the tips in this thread really helped me round out my build, I'm glad I stumbled across it...
Just a few points:
Flow Capacitors: Put some points in here. You gain quite a few more points of shield-stripping per shot for minimal cost, since you run the Omega set.
Efficiency: 9 points is pointless; 6 would be better. you gain maybe 1-2 points of power when the skill points should go into Power Insulators (against TachBeam) and Shield Systems
Hull Repair: You have 1 weak hull heal, and passive hull heal isn't very strong. Take out 3 points from that and put them into Shield Emitters. You have a stronger shield heal (TSS II) and it slightly increases your RSP
You currently have no defense against Tractor Beams. I assume you get within 5 km to maximize damage, yet if a Sphere or Cube grabs you with a Tractor, you are dead. Perhaps an Attack Pattern Omega, or at least points in Inertial Dampers
Yes, I realize that I'm making some pretty harsh statements about the efficacy of your build. However, I'm more than willing to back up these statements in either a 1v1 duel or a PvP team match if you can get a team together; maybe with two or other escorts using your build. I'm sure that my pvp fleet would be happy to take on such a team and witness the full firepower of such an escort build.
PS: You really need to stop leaning on the CAPS LOCK key in your original post, it makes my eyes sore.
Aha, I missed this. FaW is OP in 1v1s. You fire 1 extra beam from each weapon, plus it deals more damage. FaW is also OP in 2v2s, as you hit both targets with 1 extra beam from each weapon. However, in a team setting, that damage is split nearly evenly among 5 targets. It isn't enough killing power to run 5 ships with suppression, and running 2 escorts doesn't always work out so well (too squishy).
Oh, and this guy above me is the friend I mentioned who tried the FaW boat/
Beam Overload is most definitely burst damage. However, you only require 1 beam for that. A "beam boat" uses all beams (7 in this case). The best damage for this would be 4 Beam Arrays fore and 3 aft, with broadsiding as you primary tactic so you can hit your opponent with all 7 beams at once. This strategy doesn't provide much burst damage (it provides plenty of damage for sure, just not burst). Using 4 DBBs and 3 Beam Arrays, you actually deal less damage against a given target, as you are only using 4 beams against the target, which isn't nearly as much damage as you can get with 4 DHCs and 3 Turrets, for example. It doesn't uses the strengths of the escort effectively. Therefore, a 3 DHC, 3 Turret, 1 DBB setup with Beam Overload would be a better setup if you want to use beams, but currently the favorite setup in PvP is 4 DHCs and 3 Turrets.
Cruisers are better suited for a sustained dps role, due to poor turning, meaning they can't batter 1 enemy as well, so why not have them batter all enemies, and high survivability, which means they can stay in a fight long enough to actually deal sustained dps. They also have the resources to manage the power loss of firing all beams at once (use EPtW) without losing survivability. The OP's build uses EPtW, but that ensign slot would be better used in PvP for EPtS, meaning he has lower weapon power for his beams, lowering his overall dps.
And the only cruisers I would recommend any DBBs on would be the Excelsior, the Negh'var, and the Vor'cha, but their use is limited. You want to be able to hit a target with as many weapons at once as you can, and only aft Turrets and all beam arrays let you do that, and 4 DBBs and 4 Turrets with FaW isn't maximizing damage.
Again, PvE is a different beast. But generally a PvP build works in PvE (minus sci ships at the moment, but the Grav Well buff on Tribble atm may change that). It may not be max dps, but it will definitely carry a pug in Infected Elite. I've never had an issue. Might take a bit of work, but it can be done.
(* Assuming due to the arc of 90 you get all beams on same target)
Talking pure dps is great, but you have to consider skills as well. The amount of damage dealt by DHCs with Cannon Rapid Fire III is greater against 1 target than 4 DBBs with FaW III. If you take into account any Turrets in the rear, you gain extra damage against that target that is increased by the same skill used with your DHCs. All of this assumes you only have 1-2 targets in your firing arc with FaW. If you get 3 (very possible in PvP), then your damage against your target decreases by about 1/3. Any mines or pets TRIBBLE this number up even more, making a FaW escort ineffective against Klingons and soon Feds, with the Caitian carrier. 90 degrees is a wide arc; you can catch quite a bit in it.
Another thing to consider about FaW is the actual uptime of the skill. The duration is 10 seconds, and the cooldown is 20 seconds, but the shared cooldown (running a second FaW) is 20 seconds. This means you run FaW every 20 seconds for 10 seconds: 50% uptime. In the downtime, your DBBs don't deal very much damage, numbers much lower than that of DHCs. Now with CRF, you have the same 10 second duration, but it is only 5 seconds to your second CRF. You have 66% uptime, with superior damage in the downtime.
As for the rear slots, I actual run a single beam array aft with 2 turrets, because it keeps my weapon power high enough while increasing my damage in the side and aft arcs. But there's a point where trying to minimize power drain starts to lower your dps, and I think 6 weapons running at the same time is the cutoff without extra help (EPtW, for example). I've also been trying out 3 DHCs and 1 DBB in front, but I have mixed feelings about this. The DBB is just there to lower the power drain while providing a decent amount of forward damage, but I don't think it contributes too much. Perhaps a DC with 3 DHCs...