What would happen if we went a radical route - make the Raptor (at all tiers) a Science/Tactical hybrid instead of an Escort?
That would basically turn it exactly into what the MVAM has now at tier 5, minus the MVAM mode, but plus cloak and an regular science console.
I am opposed to adding Science Vessels to all tiers for the KDF. If we do that, we will have Federation BoPs as well, soon. And then, Carriers. Nothing of that I want either. I like the factions to be different.
But it would make sense to me that the KDF would put a focus on "tactical exploration". E.g. they fly into hostile territory, scan the dung out of it, and then conquer everything that seems worthy.
I would persoanlly like the idea better as one of Mister_Dee's science converted "scouts" concepts. A Science/Tac Raptor could just be the support vessel for said (scout) BoPs.
What would happen if we went a radical route - make the Raptor (at all tiers) a Science/Tactical hybrid instead of an Escort?
That would basically turn it exactly into what the MVAM has now at tier 5, minus the MVAM mode, but plus cloak and an regular science console.
I am opposed to adding Science Vessels to all tiers for the KDF. If we do that, we will have Federation BoPs as well, soon. And then, Carriers. Nothing of that I want either. I like the factions to be different.
But it would make sense to me that the KDF would put a focus on "tactical exploration". E.g. they fly into hostile territory, scan the dung out of it, and then conquer everything that seems worthy.
I find it somewhat ironic that you think turning a Raptor into more of a MVAE rather than something like giving it a battle cloak is ok. I would love if it had a Lt Commander Science Boff with a vastly improved turn rate but that is way more OP then any of the things I listed if you want the honest truth. Having a Commander Tac and giving up the LT commander Tac station for a LT Commander Science is no big deal really. I'll just use Tac Initiative but gain the incredible versatility that the LT Commander science would offer. I honestly would oppose this because it really would be too good.
Buffing the raptor has nothing to do with a BoP being too powerful at all. In fact the new MVAE is superior to a BoP so where exactly does that leave a Raptor in the food chain? Probably the easiest fix would be to either simply increase the turn rate or give it a battle cloak. People who are critiquing the Raptor please post who you are in game as i'd at least like to see you in action flying one. I think that is a fair request and not meant to be condescending. Like I said I have flown this ship extensively and feel like I'm a pretty damn good judge of its abilities and limitations. I'm definitely open for debate but at least I'd like to know who is who so I can get a better appreciation for their experience with this ship in game.
I like my raptor just like it is thanks. Someone mentioned new skins ...that would be ok.
From what i can tell you are pretty vested in the PVE side of things, which is fine. However, The PVE in this game is so simple it does not matter what ship you use at all. I'm talking about how it stacks up to other ships in the PvP world not PVE.
From what i can tell you are pretty vested in the PVE side of things, which is fine. However, The PVE in this game is so simple it does not matter what ship you use at all. I'm talking about how it stacks up to other ships in the PvP world not PVE.
Well I came to that conclusion based off the fact you are not in a PvP fleet and nobody I knew had heard of you. Also looked to me that you primarily play Federation but if I'm mistaken then my bad.
I guess you missed my sig? And no wrong again I am primarily a Klingon.....I have feds yes, It gets very boring waiting for cryptic to work on the pvp in this game. And leveling a Klingon is agonizing.
Ghostwulf is a pretty hardcore pvp'er. If i see him on.. 9/10 his in a pvp with ash
Word.
And on the subject of the thread...... I fly a raptor as a tac captain, and it's fine. It is acually better than the defiant r in all but turnrate and shield strength. It has 4k more hull than a defiant r, plus a extra engineering console slot, and the same boff layout as the defiant r. If you think that is weaker than the fed escorts, I think you might be doing something wrong.
* Disclaimer; I've only been flying a Raptor since January so I by no means consider myself an expert and leave balancing suggestions to those who know more and are considerably better than I at captaining the Raptor. :cool:
* Disclaimer; I've only been flying a Raptor since January so I by no means consider myself an expert and leave balancing suggestions to those who know more and are considerably better than I at captaining the Raptor. :cool:
As am I on both counts. Actually really finding the Qin to be an excellent vessel. Though I would have no hesitation if the Devs (or an industriuos player) designed a LG version of it and the Hegh.
And on the subject of the thread...... I fly a raptor as a tac captain, and it's fine. It is acually better than the defiant r in all but turnrate and shield strength. It has 4k more hull than a defiant r, plus a extra engineering console slot, and the same boff layout as the defiant r. If you think that is weaker than the fed escorts, I think you might be doing something wrong.
I find the turnrate to be quite good. Was really amazed at how easily she can spin her nose around to line-up on a target and wished I had tried the Qin sooner.
The Raptor is a monster vs pugs. I remember flying with a team Jorf set up with myself in tac my raptor, K'eg, Black Jack, and I think Elash. We just destroyed the pugs we came up against.
Then we ran into a sci heavy team, can't remember who, and couldn't get kills and ended up loosing hard. We had a group of very skilled players that just got spanked.
I'd love for some kind of universal slot, to change based on the opponent you're facing... In pugs run an extra tac to kill faster. Against a Sci heavy team, an extra Science Team would be a godsend against all these darn scramble sensor spam teams.
The Raptor is a monster vs pugs. I remember flying with a team Jorf set up with myself in tac my raptor, K'eg, Black Jack, and I think Elash. We just destroyed the pugs we came up against.
Then we ran into a sci heavy team, can't remember who, and couldn't get kills and ended up loosing hard. We had a group of very skilled players that just got spanked.
I'd love for some kind of universal slot, to change based on the opponent you're facing... In pugs run an extra tac to kill faster. Against a Sci heavy team, an extra Science Team would be a godsend against all these darn scramble sensor spam teams.
Actually, I think the one thing a Raptor needs most is a competent supporting team. I would venture to say that too many KDF play Tac/sci focused BOPs and are more solo players than team players. Not all of course, but the chief thing you see more of on the Fed side is cross support ability. I would say it is a lot more common to see a BOP or a DPS outfitted Vor'cha than a strong supporting Negh'var or Marauder, for example. If a Raptor gets the heal support it needs, it can be very deadly. But without it, its not going to get far.
A Raptor is virtually identical to a Defiant refit, but the Defiant refit can almost expect to have a science ship that can support it with heals on its side, and that makes it stronger when it gets that.
I guess you missed my sig? And no wrong again I am primarily a Klingon.....I have feds yes, It gets very boring waiting for cryptic to work on the pvp in this game. And leveling a Klingon is agonizing.
I owe you an apology then. I still think that the Raptor needs a bit of a boost compared to the other Escorts that are available to both KDF and Feds. I've listed a few changes that I think would make it a more appealing and effective ship to fly then the current one without making it OP. In my opinion it is the worse escort available outside of the Guramba.
You know if you are in a new MVAE, Fleet Escort, or Advanced Escort you might not have cloak but the entire Fed team ought to know you probably are going to be the initial target and prepare to support you. Guys flying Intrepids can pop the Abalative armor to grant near immunity so they dont make a great first alpha strike target. That leaves that escort or a cruiser and 9/10 times you probably are better off going after that escort. You survive the initial Alpha and any of those Escorts hold a definite advantage over a Raptor.
What would happen if we went a radical route - make the Raptor (at all tiers) a Science/Tactical hybrid instead of an Escort?
That would basically turn it exactly into what the MVAM has now at tier 5, minus the MVAM mode, but plus cloak and an regular science console.
I am opposed to adding Science Vessels to all tiers for the KDF. If we do that, we will have Federation BoPs as well, soon. And then, Carriers. Nothing of that I want either. I like the factions to be different.
But it would make sense to me that the KDF would put a focus on "tactical exploration". E.g. they fly into hostile territory, scan the dung out of it, and then conquer everything that seems worthy.
That is basically how 75% of most BoP layouts. If they make the raptor a Tac/Sci Escort they then will need to give the KDF a full on tac escort. When I think KDF I usually think large killing machine that uses brute force (tac) and less finesse (sci).
Actually, I think the one thing a Raptor needs most is a competent supporting team. I would venture to say that too many KDF play Tac/sci focused BOPs and are more solo players than team players. Not all of course, but the chief thing you see more of on the Fed side is cross support ability. I would say it is a lot more common to see a BOP or a DPS outfitted Vor'cha than a strong supporting Negh'var or Marauder, for example. If a Raptor gets the heal support it needs, it can be very deadly. But without it, its not going to get far.
A Raptor is virtually identical to a Defiant refit, but the Defiant refit can almost expect to have a science ship that can support it with heals on its side, and that makes it stronger when it gets that.
As a (currently) full TAC load on a Qin, I could not agree more.
25.2 (maybe 25.3 or .4, only had a common MK XI RCS handy)
Its very close to being identical to a Defiant..
The only reason you see few Raptors is because the BOP is a much more effective ship.. You can have the same alpha, more heals and better options (Sci LtC with a cloak anyone?)
Wait.. If the Raptor = Defiant and BOP > Raptor.. Does that mean the BOP is better than Defiants too?
25.2 (maybe 25.3 or .4, only had a common MK XI RCS handy)
Its very close to being identical to a Defiant..
The only reason you see few Raptors is because the BOP is a much more effective ship.. You can have the same alpha, more heals and better options (Sci LtC with a cloak anyone?)
Wait.. If the Raptor = Defiant and BOP > Raptor.. Does that mean the BOP is better than Defiants too?
I have flown both with pretty much identical loadouts console wise and the Defiant is more nimble then the raptor, Right now my raptor has more power to engines then my Defiant but my defiant turns much better. The only thing I can think s the defiant is smaller and has its turn axis closer to center and the raptor has its turn more towards the back.
I've been flying a Raptor forever and I can 100% positively confirm that a Defiant will out turn it as well as the new MVAE. I have a Defiant on my Fed as well as countless PvP matches against them and there is no denying the inferior turn rate of the Raptor. Turn rate is incredibly important for an Escort and definitely a weakness that the Raptor suffers from.
I've been flying a Raptor forever and I can 100% positively confirm that a Defiant will out turn it as well as the new MVAE. I have a Defiant on my Fed as well as countless PvP matches against them and there is no denying the inferior turn rate of the Raptor. Turn rate is incredibly important for an Escort and definitely a weakness that the Raptor suffers from.
Ive never really flown BOPs on my Klingon toons.. I mainly flew Raptors before I semipermanently switched to Fed.
Fedside I fly and while the feel of the ship is a tad different, I dont see the turnrate difference as more than a slight adjustment to get used to.
The difference in turnrate between the RCS Raptor (25.2) and Defiant (26.2) is like 4%
Maybe the size of the model and/or difference in inertia plays a small part?
Makes me wonder if the displayed turnrates are accurate. Certainly, Defiants seem to out-turn my Raptor by a very significant margin. Of course, since I don't have an RCS, the difference is 8%, which I guess might be noticeable.
Ingame the Defiant has a much tighter turning radius than the Raptor. The best advice I can give against the Defiant is to break off from the "merry-go-round" of turning and use EVM/Duet/ApO/ApA to get some distance before returning to the attack.
Ingame the Defiant has a much tighter turning radius than the Raptor. The best advice I can give against the Defiant is to break off from the "merry-go-round" of turning and use EVM/Duet/ApO/ApA to get some distance before returning to the attack.
This is really the best tactic and the good defiant and MVAM escort pilots know this. A raptor against one of these inside 2km will maybe get 1 good burst off after that it is turret action. I use roach's approach because at 3-5 KM the raptor is a Brute, can take more punishment then a defiant and the tactical MVAM.
Ultimately I think the turn rates are off, I know some of it has to do with simple physics, the defiant is a more or less a small saucer and the raptor is long and cylinderical. The only question is are they similar in size if they are same from from front to back they should more or less turn the same unless the pivot point is not the same but I feel the raptor is somewhere between the defiant and the fleet or advanced escort.
This is really the best tactic and the good defiant and MVAM escort pilots know this. A raptor against one of these inside 2km will maybe get 1 good burst off after that it is turret action. I use roach's approach because at 3-5 KM the raptor is a Brute, can take more punishment then a defiant and the tactical MVAM.
Ultimately I think the turn rates are off, I know some of it has to do with simple physics, the defiant is a more or less a small saucer and the raptor is long and cylinderical. The only question is are they similar in size if they are same from from front to back they should more or less turn the same unless the pivot point is not the same but I feel the raptor is somewhere between the defiant and the fleet or advanced escort.
I can not disagree. I too think the Raptor falls between the two fedships fairly well.
Possibly a Refit variant is needed for LG rank combat? It would give the chance for the Devs to create a piece of equipment called Coherent Molecular Alloy Armor (+20 Kinetic/+20 all damage) (if it doesn't already exist) as it was disovered to be on the first raptor ever encountered.
Overall though I think the differences are somewhat fair. The Qin has 1 extra console slot over the Def-R and 3000 more hull to compensate for the Def-R's higher shields and faster turnrate.
Ingame the Defiant has a much tighter turning radius than the Raptor. The best advice I can give against the Defiant is to break off from the "merry-go-round" of turning and use EVM/Duet/ApO/ApA to get some distance before returning to the attack.
I can sometime fool a Defiant/MVAM by full reverse with EM. They will just circle in front of you then.
Comments
I would persoanlly like the idea better as one of Mister_Dee's science converted "scouts" concepts. A Science/Tac Raptor could just be the support vessel for said (scout) BoPs.
I find it somewhat ironic that you think turning a Raptor into more of a MVAE rather than something like giving it a battle cloak is ok. I would love if it had a Lt Commander Science Boff with a vastly improved turn rate but that is way more OP then any of the things I listed if you want the honest truth. Having a Commander Tac and giving up the LT commander Tac station for a LT Commander Science is no big deal really. I'll just use Tac Initiative but gain the incredible versatility that the LT Commander science would offer. I honestly would oppose this because it really would be too good.
Buffing the raptor has nothing to do with a BoP being too powerful at all. In fact the new MVAE is superior to a BoP so where exactly does that leave a Raptor in the food chain? Probably the easiest fix would be to either simply increase the turn rate or give it a battle cloak. People who are critiquing the Raptor please post who you are in game as i'd at least like to see you in action flying one. I think that is a fair request and not meant to be condescending. Like I said I have flown this ship extensively and feel like I'm a pretty damn good judge of its abilities and limitations. I'm definitely open for debate but at least I'd like to know who is who so I can get a better appreciation for their experience with this ship in game.
Blackjack
From what i can tell you are pretty vested in the PVE side of things, which is fine. However, The PVE in this game is so simple it does not matter what ship you use at all. I'm talking about how it stacks up to other ships in the PvP world not PVE.
You would be totally wrong.
Johnny waz up
Word.
And on the subject of the thread...... I fly a raptor as a tac captain, and it's fine. It is acually better than the defiant r in all but turnrate and shield strength. It has 4k more hull than a defiant r, plus a extra engineering console slot, and the same boff layout as the defiant r. If you think that is weaker than the fed escorts, I think you might be doing something wrong.
/signed
* Disclaimer; I've only been flying a Raptor since January so I by no means consider myself an expert and leave balancing suggestions to those who know more and are considerably better than I at captaining the Raptor. :cool:
I find the turnrate to be quite good. Was really amazed at how easily she can spin her nose around to line-up on a target and wished I had tried the Qin sooner.
Then we ran into a sci heavy team, can't remember who, and couldn't get kills and ended up loosing hard. We had a group of very skilled players that just got spanked.
I'd love for some kind of universal slot, to change based on the opponent you're facing... In pugs run an extra tac to kill faster. Against a Sci heavy team, an extra Science Team would be a godsend against all these darn scramble sensor spam teams.
A universal ensign BO slot would be so $$money$$.
A Raptor is virtually identical to a Defiant refit, but the Defiant refit can almost expect to have a science ship that can support it with heals on its side, and that makes it stronger when it gets that.
I owe you an apology then. I still think that the Raptor needs a bit of a boost compared to the other Escorts that are available to both KDF and Feds. I've listed a few changes that I think would make it a more appealing and effective ship to fly then the current one without making it OP. In my opinion it is the worse escort available outside of the Guramba.
You know if you are in a new MVAE, Fleet Escort, or Advanced Escort you might not have cloak but the entire Fed team ought to know you probably are going to be the initial target and prepare to support you. Guys flying Intrepids can pop the Abalative armor to grant near immunity so they dont make a great first alpha strike target. That leaves that escort or a cruiser and 9/10 times you probably are better off going after that escort. You survive the initial Alpha and any of those Escorts hold a definite advantage over a Raptor.
That is basically how 75% of most BoP layouts. If they make the raptor a Tac/Sci Escort they then will need to give the KDF a full on tac escort. When I think KDF I usually think large killing machine that uses brute force (tac) and less finesse (sci).
As a (currently) full TAC load on a Qin, I could not agree more.
Commander Tac
Lt. Tac
Ensign Tac
Lt.C Eng
Lt. Sci
.....?
Defiant turn - Aegis Engine - Relevant skills boosted (engine efficiency/performance) - 100-25-50-25
26.2
Raptor turn - Aegis Engine - Relevant skills boosted - 100-25-50-25 power
24.2
Raptor turn - Aegis Engine - RCS Console - Relevant skills boosted - 100-25-50-25 power
25.2 (maybe 25.3 or .4, only had a common MK XI RCS handy)
Its very close to being identical to a Defiant..
The only reason you see few Raptors is because the BOP is a much more effective ship.. You can have the same alpha, more heals and better options (Sci LtC with a cloak anyone?)
Wait.. If the Raptor = Defiant and BOP > Raptor.. Does that mean the BOP is better than Defiants too?
I have flown both with pretty much identical loadouts console wise and the Defiant is more nimble then the raptor, Right now my raptor has more power to engines then my Defiant but my defiant turns much better. The only thing I can think s the defiant is smaller and has its turn axis closer to center and the raptor has its turn more towards the back.
Ive never really flown BOPs on my Klingon toons.. I mainly flew Raptors before I semipermanently switched to Fed.
Fedside I fly and while the feel of the ship is a tad different, I dont see the turnrate difference as more than a slight adjustment to get used to.
The difference in turnrate between the RCS Raptor (25.2) and Defiant (26.2) is like 4%
Maybe the size of the model and/or difference in inertia plays a small part?
This is really the best tactic and the good defiant and MVAM escort pilots know this. A raptor against one of these inside 2km will maybe get 1 good burst off after that it is turret action. I use roach's approach because at 3-5 KM the raptor is a Brute, can take more punishment then a defiant and the tactical MVAM.
Ultimately I think the turn rates are off, I know some of it has to do with simple physics, the defiant is a more or less a small saucer and the raptor is long and cylinderical. The only question is are they similar in size if they are same from from front to back they should more or less turn the same unless the pivot point is not the same but I feel the raptor is somewhere between the defiant and the fleet or advanced escort.
I can not disagree. I too think the Raptor falls between the two fedships fairly well.
Possibly a Refit variant is needed for LG rank combat? It would give the chance for the Devs to create a piece of equipment called Coherent Molecular Alloy Armor (+20 Kinetic/+20 all damage) (if it doesn't already exist) as it was disovered to be on the first raptor ever encountered.
Overall though I think the differences are somewhat fair. The Qin has 1 extra console slot over the Def-R and 3000 more hull to compensate for the Def-R's higher shields and faster turnrate.
I can sometime fool a Defiant/MVAM by full reverse with EM. They will just circle in front of you then.
Excellent Tactic!!!! Very clever!!!