I'm not arguing over what things in life may or may not be gambling. I do consider adding a Random DOff Pack to the C-Store to be a form of gambling.
I think there is a "win or lose" step when buying a Random DOff Pack off the C-Store. I would say most people, myself included, would consider getting a Rare or Very Rare DOff to be a "win" over getting a Common or even an Uncommon.
Further, my perception is that having such a "win" gives an advantage (however small) over those that either:
A) Don't purchase the Random DOff Packs (ie who choose not to pay to spin the wheel).
and/or Do pay to spin, but get a "losing" hand.
Yes, I know there are going to be in-game mechanisms for getting DOffs, and Heretic believes it will be the preferred method. But there will be people who "Pay-to-Win", which I think is another Bad Thing.
I'm certainly not trying to attack you personally or anything; so I hope you don't see it that way.
The point I'm trying to make is that you're purchasing something. And while you may be purchasing a chance at something. you're not only purchasing a chance at something. Just because there's a random factor on the quality of what you're purchasing, doesn't make it gambling.
The definitions of "win" you're giving are nebulous. As far as I can tell, the only reason you would consider this gambling is that the quality of DOffs you may get are clearly demarcated and not subjective. What I mean by that is, what if I went out and bought a book. The bookstore sells me the "book" just like the C-Store sells me a "Pack of DOffs". It turns out to be my favorite book ever. I "gambled" my real money on this book and I "won". The book is of use to me.
Now you buy the same book. The bookstore sells you the "book" just like the C-Store sells you a "Pack of Doffs". You hate the book. You "gambled" your real money on this book and "lost". The book is not of use to you.
The only difference is subjectivity. The end result to both transactions was that you received the thing you purchased and that there was a random factor involved.
As some have noticed, there is an IP argument, which was where it started, but the reason it stayed alive was the systemic benefit of not rigidly yoking collectors' needs to min-maxers' needs, which means those respective economies are more independent of each other.
Can certainly understand the need to separate rarity from quality... but in this particular instance it seems a bit disjointed with the BOFF system and the fiction. I get Andorian BOFFs all the time; would have thought that the "founding species" of Vulcan, Tellarite, Andorian and Vulcan would be in the same rarity tier regardless of how much air-time the shows could budget.
That's one of the things I think STO has a great opportunity to do: rectify some of the inconsistencies that the show raised due to budgets.
Unsurprisingly, I see things a bit differently. While you can buy a book and you may either like it or dislike it, you knew what book you were buying beforehand. The randomness of the doffs means you don't know what you're buying in comparison. The problem as I see it is many of those doffs will be effectively worthless. Common doffs will be widely available through the exchange soon after the system launches. Spending real money to get mostly those worthless doffs is a poor purchase at best, losing at gambling at worst. And you can buy them over and over and over again, in the hopes that you'll get that very rare doff that only will happen one in a thousand times. Nothing about the book purchase entices you to buy the same book a hundred more times in hopes of getting a better ending.
Everything else the c-store sells you is either once per account or once per character. This is something far more dangerous to some players who may impulsively keep buying them until they find what they want or run out of money. As I wrote in post #123, players could potentially spend hundreds of dollars on these packs; money they may not be able to afford.
I'm not against selling doffs in the c-store. I'm against repeatedly selling random ones. I really hope they rethink this system, though I don't hold out much hope because it's quite possible someone out there at Cryptic hopes players will spend hundreds of dollars on these things; it's a feature, not a bug.
Unsurprisingly, I see things a bit differently. While you can buy a book and you may either like it or dislike it, you knew what book you were buying beforehand. The randomness of the doffs means you don't know what you're buying in comparison. The problem as I see it is many of those doffs will be effectively worthless. Common doffs will be widely available through the exchange soon after the system launches. Spending real money to get mostly those worthless doffs is a poor purchase at best, losing at gambling at worst. And you can buy them over and over and over again, in the hopes that you'll get that very rare doff that only will happen one in a thousand times. Nothing about the book purchase entices you to buy the same book a hundred more times in hopes of getting a better ending.
Everything else the c-store sells you is either once per account or once per character. This is something far more dangerous to some players who may impulsively keep buying them until they find what they want or run out of money. As I wrote in post #123, players could potentially spend hundreds of dollars on these packs; money they may not be able to afford.
I'm not against selling doffs in the c-store. I'm against repeatedly selling random ones. I really hope they rethink this system, though I don't hold out much hope because it's quite possible someone out there at Cryptic hopes players will spend hundreds of dollars on these things; it's a feature, not a bug.
But you could make this argument about anything that exists and is able to be purchased.
This is where personal responsibility enters the equation. It's neither Cryptic's job nor your job to police other people's spending activities. I don't find offering a pack of random DOffs to be irresponsible to the playerbase.
I would further argue that, yes, you knew what book you were buying beforehand. But you didn't know know what was in it. Otherwise why would you read it?
In the case of Johnny Jr. buying his cards, he is staking his $3 (or whatever a pack of cards costs) that he gets his Rookie Ace Player Card (or whatever other "chase card" he's hoping for). And what does he do when he doesn't get said card? He ante's up again and buys another pack. Repeat until addiction is satisfied. (Yes, I'm being extreme with the word "addiction", but the basic principal applies.)
Paying Cryptic/Atari/PW Tokens for random DOffs is staking your money (in the form of Tokens... think Las Vegas Poker Chips) against the uncertain (ie random) contingency that you'll get "dealt a good hand" and get good Uncommons, Rares, or Very Rares.
This is Gambling. Pure and Simple. :rolleyes:
I do hope that you're writing letters to the people who make Pokemon trading cards, Magic trading cards, baseball cards, etc...
Because if you're this adamant about C-store DOFFs being 'gambling', those other things have a *much* wider sales base across the country (and world). And, it would be hypocritical of you to be so vocal about the C-store DOFFs while not also being vocal about those other products to their companies, since they're promoting 'gambling' to young children according to your statements.
Unsurprisingly, I see things a bit differently. While you can buy a book and you may either like it or dislike it, you knew what book you were buying beforehand. The randomness of the doffs means you don't know what you're buying in comparison. The problem as I see it is many of those doffs will be effectively worthless. Common doffs will be widely available through the exchange soon after the system launches. Spending real money to get mostly those worthless doffs is a poor purchase at best, losing at gambling at worst. And you can buy them over and over and over again, in the hopes that you'll get that very rare doff that only will happen one in a thousand times. Nothing about the book purchase entices you to buy the same book a hundred more times in hopes of getting a better ending.
Everything else the c-store sells you is either once per account or once per character. This is something far more dangerous to some players who may impulsively keep buying them until they find what they want or run out of money. As I wrote in post #123, players could potentially spend hundreds of dollars on these packs; money they may not be able to afford.
I'm not against selling doffs in the c-store. I'm against repeatedly selling random ones. I really hope they rethink this system, though I don't hold out much hope because it's quite possible someone out there at Cryptic hopes players will spend hundreds of dollars on these things; it's a feature, not a bug.
You've never played Magic or any of the other plethora of CCGs (including electronic 'CCG's) that have come out since then, have you? (There was even a ST electronic 'CCG' - Star Trek ConQuest.)
As for the gambling aspect, I cannot comment on that, as that goes to business development and legal issues I am not qualified to address.
I highly discourage the use of gambling on the C-Store in order to obtain better DOff's. Clearly, it's a mechanic which promotes multiple purchases.
I understand the use of the C-Store and I want Cryptic to be profitable so the game grows. But I'd rather know exactly what I'm purchasing and exactly what I'm getting if I decide to make a purchase. Sell rare and very rare rewards straight up if you must.
If BD is saying you must go down this road, champion a mechanic that does not use gambling and chance as a method to promote business. It's not the right thing to do.
Cryptic should look into the State by State and Country by Country legalities of this issue. SOE has about the same system with TCG (random lottery for specific items that you might get and then again might not) and it ended up being void in certain States and world areas due to age limitation laws and State, county, and municipal statutes on gambling. SOE did have some problems with this, post launch of TCG, and ending up voiding in several different places.
Pay for power like some here are calling it? With TCG, if you live in the wrong place, you just got beat.
I'm certainly not trying to attack you personally or anything; so I hope you don't see it that way.
Not at all dear Sir (or Madam?). I only bolded Lime-eh-fied my response so you would be sure to see my inability to get your point. Likewise, I hope you know I'm not heated/angry at all, or intend any offense to you. Realize my point in colorizing my posts was to draw attention, to catch one's eye. As far as I'm concerned we're just having a friendly debate, checking various points-of-view on the topic.
...As far as I can tell, the only reason you would consider this gambling is that the quality of DOffs you may get are clearly demarcated and not subjective. ...if I went out and bought a book...
The randomness of the quality of the DOffs is the gambling that I do not like. Yup.
If I buy a book I know many objective things about it: The author, the publishing house, the title, and the synopsis (which granted the last one is ususally spruced up to make it seem more appealing, but at least I'll know if it's a horror book or a romance book). From these things I can find out related past works, read reviews, etc. If I pick a good publisher I'm likely to get a good quality item that's going to last years and live up to the physical trials of re-reading. There will be few editting mistakes, etc. I'll know the size, number of pages, and even weight of the book. Hard cover, soft cover, original copy, reprint, etc. There are objective "stats" that I can evaluate prior to putting down my hard earned cash. The story line and writer's capability are subjective. I didn't like Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. Many people did. But I knew what I was buying ahead of time.
If I buy a Liberated Borg from the C-Store, it lists that she has certain Traits, in this case: Borg Nanites (10% bonus to regeneration and shield regeneration), Efficient (Bonus to Efficiency), Resilient (5% bonus to Physical and Energy damage resistance) and Borg Neural Blast (short-range neural hold power). These are objective facts about this C-Store purchase. Are these better than an In-Game BO with other traits? Certainly the specific application/build will determine the answer, and while there are some ways that can be measured objectively, mostly, realistically, the valued use is subjective and based on game play and personal preference.
But, with Random DOffs, the only thing I'm going to know, it seems, is that I'll get X number of scarce cards ranging from Uncommon-Very Rare. I'll concede I don't know for sure how it's to be implemented, but I'm against the baseball card/CCG style "pack" idea that each DOff C-Store purchase includes "5 commons, 2 uncommons, and a rare card" but I don't know the stats/traits of those cards ahead of time.
I do hope that you're writing letters to the people who make Pokemon trading cards, Magic trading cards, baseball cards, etc... ...it would be hypocritical of you to be so vocal about the C-store DOFFs while not also being vocal about those other products to their companies, since they're promoting 'gambling' to young children according to your statements.
Eons ago, I used to play Magic the Gathering. Really enjoyed it, too. I still occasionally purchase a pack of cards, just for the fun of it. :rolleyes:
Look, let's be clear. I'm not against Gambling in a general sense. I'm an adult. I do not have kids, and not to sound mean/cruel, but I don't care what other people/companies sell to kids, that's for their parents to police. When I have kids of my own, I'll take care of where they spend their allowance at that time.
I think the difference between MTG and STO, for instance, is I didn't have to pay a subscription fee (either monthly or an upfront LTS) for the ability to buy the random cards. In MTG, I bought new cards to hopefully get good ones to get an edge when playing my friends.
I shouldn't have to Pay-to-Win in STO. If Mary RichGirl can afford to buy lots of C-Store Packs, eventually getting better "cards" in the process, offering her an in-game advantage (however small), then I should have the same opportunity to buy the exact same items "off the shelf", not have to deal with the gambling mechanism.
As I mentioned above, I know there will be in-game mechanics (that deal in randomness, no less), but again, purchasing from the C-Store is another avenue to get the goods that may not be available to some people, or who won't/can't afford to spend on many packs to eventually hit the Jackpot.
It creates an uneven playing field where the rich (or at least those willing to spend more money) have a higher chance to get better in-game features. As I conceded in my first post, at least level the field and offer predefined packs.
You know, I've been saying it all along in regards to the C-store, that it was a slippery slope, that it will turn into pay-to-win (which it has, with some of the best ships in the game being in the C-store, and the head and shoulders best escort in the game being C-store only), but not even I could imagine that Cryptic would sink so low as to consider a freaking lottery system for real money. This isn't pay to win. This is pay for the *possibility* of win, and like all slippery slopes it will only go downhill from here.
Cryptic, if people are prone to question your business practices, if people are prone to call you things like "greedy" and "money-grubbing", look at what you are doing and the direction you are going. Take a long hard look. The fact that you are even considering such a questionable practice shows just how low your view of your customers is. The fact that this thread is probably going to be moved, locked, and myself either banned or given a ton of infractions for pointing out the obvious doubly shows this -- you aren't interested in any kind of real critical feedback.
For the love of God, start spending time and money making this game better (hiring more than a skeleton dev team as opposed to using the boxed and lifetime sales to finance a whole new game would be a good start), and stop this insanity of fleecing your existing user base for as much as you can possibly can. It doesn't help the game population, and in the long run it will ruin this game financially when everyone tires of it.
I would love nothing more than for Dstahl to come in here and say, "Boy that was a stupid idea, never mind". Please Cryptic, prove me wrong.
Every MMO has a store that you can buy stuff from. It's not going away. Live with it!
If I had the dough i'd buy some of the uniforms and ships that are in the C-Store. I don't and I don't really care that new stuff is added to the C-store. Isn't the plan to make this stuff available in-game by some method for those of us that are poor?
As I mentioned above, I know there will be in-game mechanics (that deal in randomness, no less), but again, purchasing from the C-Store is another avenue to get the goods that may not be available to some people, or who won't/can't afford to spend on many packs to eventually hit the Jackpot.
Until the system comes out, none of us know *anything* about the abilities they have, and from what's been said on this thread so far by Heretic, it doesn't seem as if there's any actual mechanic or ability that won't be available without buying through the C-store. It's only if you want something an all <insert species here> crew, the *fastest* way is to buy 'packs' to get a lot of those races. Again, none of us will actually know until the system and more details are revealed.
Of course, none of that stops anybody from jumping the gun, I guess.
Agreed. I have money and I do have several C-Store purchases, but I refuse to play Cryptic's bridge officer trading card game.
THIS IDEA IS DEAD ON ARRIVAL. Do not implement. Full stop.
Fixed it for you. With slots, it's entirely possible to get nothing in return for your money paid, hence 'gambling'. With the C-store BOFF packs, you always get something, but what you get is random, just like trading card game packs, which is totally different from a slot machine.
I think there is a huge distinction that has been mentioned but not really paid attention to.
When you gamble, and I mean really legtimately gamble. You HAVE to fork over your cash. You have no other option. With DOFF packs (which I think is lame so this isn't me justifying my feelings) you do not in any way have to purchase them directly with real life money on a "gamble" that you are going to get one that you need/want.
I think it has been said by the devs that the best duty officers will be acquirable from within the Duty Officer framework. Do missions, get rewards in game.
NO kidding Cryptic setup the C-Store purchasable packs to encourage repeat transactions. It makes them money. They are a legitimate business with the right to do so. If they inadvertently step over any legal boundaries, you know the problem will be rectified in such a way to minimize the damage to their projected earnings for this product.
If you are against this idea (as I am) just don't purchase the dang thing from the C-Store. Cryptic looks at what sells, but please don't begrudge someone from spending their own money on something they want that cannot possibly impact your gameplay (Duty officers aren't a form of PvP or competition otherwise).
Every MMO has a store that you can buy stuff from. It's not going away. Live with it!
Rift doesn't have one at all, that I'm aware of. The only extras for it was the preorder stuff, and the digipass for extra account security.
Beyond that, while other games do have stores, not a single one of the subscription only games have a store even approaching the scale STO currently does. If you can name any feel free to point them out, cause I sure can't think of any.
Rift doesn't have one at all, that I'm aware of. The only extras for it was the preorder stuff, and the digipass for extra account security.
Beyond that, while other games do have stores, not a single one of the subscription only games have a store even approaching the scale STO currently does. If you can name any feel free to point them out, cause I sure can't think of any.
Rift doesn't have one at all, that I'm aware of. The only extras for it was the preorder stuff, and the digipass for extra account security.
Beyond that, while other games do have stores, not a single one of the subscription only games have a store even approaching the scale STO currently does. If you can name any feel free to point them out, cause I sure can't think of any.
The only two MMOs i am familiar with are STO, WoW, Final Fantasy 11, Final Fantasy 14, EVE, and something refered to as EQ. And whatever Cryptic's other game is.
If you are against this idea (as I am) just don't purchase the dang thing from the C-Store. Cryptic looks at what sells, but please don't begrudge someone from spending their own money on something they want that cannot possibly impact your gameplay (Duty officers aren't a form of PvP or competition otherwise).
Two problems with that argument.
1. No one buys it in the C-Store: Cryptic calls the DOff system a failure and refuses to develop more content until people become "interested" in them. Hint: Buy more Stuff!!! Sound Familiar? Sub DOff with KDF, and you have the pretty what was said in the Ask Cryptic June edition. Repeat as desired.
2. In a way, what other people have vs what I have as a DOff Will affect gameplay, even if only on a small scale. PvP can hinge on that 1 or 2% extra crit chance. And a 1% difference here and a 2% difference over there may seem small, but it all adds up.
1. No one buys it in the C-Store: Cryptic calls the DOff system a failure and refuses to develop more content until people become "interested" in them. Hint: Buy more Stuff!!! Sound Familiar? Sub DOff with KDF, and you have the pretty what was said in the Ask Cryptic June edition. Repeat as desired.
2. In a way, what other people have vs what I have as a DOff Will affect gameplay, even if only on a small scale. PvP can hinge on that 1 or 2% extra crit chance. And a 1% difference here and a 2% difference over there may seem small, but it all adds up.
I think point 1 is mired in paranoia. Not that it isn't warranted, but at this point its conjecture. I would be shocked if cryptic decided to claim the duty officer system was a failure because players didn't spend extra money on the C-store. Everything I have read about it states that its an ingame system, for all players because we have asked for it. They are simply finding a way to make additional money off of it at the same time. More money for Cryptic isn't a terrible thing.
I said that the system can't affect your gameplay and it can't. The C-Store isn't the only source of the duty officers. The best ones, they have said time and time again will be gotten in game through using the system and going on missions. There is no garuntee that buying packs on the C-Store will make someone better than you in PvP.
If a 1 or possibly 2 percent increase in crit chance is enough to doom you to failure at PvP, i'd say that system is broken that skill cannot overcome 1 percent stat incrases (that you can still get ingame without spending more money)
Deity help me, I am wading hip deep in a mess mired in paranoia and greed, but I'll keep my comments mostly succinct.
Referring to the OP's contention that purchasing the DOffs on the C-Store might be a bad thing for the game, I tend to agree in some points and disagree in others. This is for a multitude of reasons.
PatricianVetinari correctly points out that this is similar to gambling. It may not be a lottery as such, but it is certainly gambling. Several states are strictly against that - which introduces legal issues. This, of course, doesn't count the myriad of other countries supported by Cryptic. So, this sounds to me like a very disturbing realization.
How can they have their cake and eat it too? How can we as customers have our cake and eat it too?
A combination of ideas seemed to be the best choice.
1.) Themed packs (races, for example) for common/uncommon DOffs on the C-Store (not rares, not very rares).
2.) Implement PvP methods to obtain the DOffs for those who like PvP (you could even make it such that x number of wins {or losses} in a storyline of missions for PvP would award the rare/very rare BOffs).
3.) Keep the current design for the in-game DOff system for PvE to award the rare/very rare BOffs.
4.) Limit the maximum number of Rares/Very Rares you can obtain so that doing both PvE and PvP doesn't tip or skew your rewards to be greater than that of folks who only do one or the other (You get the same quality and quantity max regardless of your method).
This, I think, would solve the legal issues, the ethical issues, and continue to allow the C-Store to serve the purpose of bringing in revenue to Cryptic.
Can someone please link actual evidence wherein a state or country has deemed Pokemon cards gambling?
Otherwise, I cannot understand that side of the argument.
Actually, the link was posted earlier in this thread by another person with regards to California specifically (and how that applied to even cards). I want to say it was somewhere toward the middle of the posts, but I've been at lunch the last 1.25 hours. :-)
Actually, the link was posted earlier in this thread by another person with regards to California specifically (and how that applied to even cards). I want to say it was somewhere toward the middle of the posts, but I've been at lunch the last 1.25 hours. :-)
Here is what you're talking about:
Penal Code Sec. 319.3.
319.3. (a) In addition to Section 319, a lottery also shall include a grab bag game which is a scheme whereby, for the disposal or distribution of sports trading cards by chance, a person pays valuable consideration to purchase a sports trading card grab bag with the understanding that the purchaser has a chance to win a designated prize or prizes listed by the seller as being contained in one or more, but not all, of the grab bags.
(b) For purposes of this section, the following definitions shall
apply:
(1) "Sports trading card grab bag" means a sealed package which
contains one or more sports trading cards that have been removed from
the manufacturer's original packaging. A "sports trading card grab
bag" does not include a sweepstakes, or procedure for the
distribution of any sports trading card of value by lot or by chance,
which is not unlawful under other provisions of law.
(2) "Sports trading card" means any card produced for use in
commerce that contains a company name or logo, or both, and an image,
representation, or facsimile of one or more players or other team
member or members in any pose, and that is produced pursuant to an
appropriate licensing agreement.
Thus the target of this law is clearly defined as exactly something that a pack of DOffs from the C-Store would not be.
In fact, this penal code specifically states that it does not include "the distribution of any sports trading card of value by lot or by chance, which is not unlawful under other provisions of law." Which is precisely what people seem to think is a lottery in this situation.
Thus the target of this law is clearly defined as exactly something that a pack of DOffs from the C-Store would not be.
The problem is multi-fold as far as I can ascertain. 1.) A paid for game of chance (gambling in many states) with the DOff on the C-Store. 2.) It's close enough to card trading that there's enough ambiguity (hence, not so clear) to cause legal issues for folks.
California isn't the only state. And, as others have reminded us, other states are a lot more strict on gambling, even if it is in a virtual sense, than others. (One is reminded of the online casinos which recently got busted.)
No, neither of us are lawyers, nor do I think either of us pretend to be. But, let's go one step outside the box for a second. Neither of us know the legal precedents for all 50 states. Nor do we know all of the local and national precedents allowed in all the areas Cryptic provides service and support. That requires a legal team of great size and efficiency to determine the validity -- and even that's no guarantee local or national law enforcement or judiciary counterparts will agree with said interpretation in those countries (or states locally, or even counties/cities locally).
In short, it's a big mess. So, the safest solution is to go with the options I suggested. It allows everyone to get what they want without the legal headache.
The problem is multi-fold as far as I can ascertain. 1.) A paid for game of chance (gambling in many states) with the DOff on the C-Store. 2.) It's close enough to card trading that there's enough ambiguity (hence, not so clear) to cause legal issues for folks.
California isn't the only state. And, as others have reminded us, other states are a lot more strict on gambling, even if it is in a virtual sense, than others. (One is reminded of the online casinos which recently got busted.)
No, neither of us are lawyers, nor do I think either of us pretend to be. But, let's go one step outside the box for a second. Neither of us know the legal precedents for all 50 states. Nor do we know all of the local and national precedents allowed in all the areas Cryptic provides service and support. That requires a legal team of great size and efficiency to determine the validity -- and even that's no guarantee local or national law enforcement or judiciary counterparts will agree with said interpretation in those countries (or states locally, or even counties/cities locally).
In short, it's a big mess. So, the safest solution is to go with the options I suggested. It allows everyone to get what they want without the legal headache.
However, you're proceeding from a certain premise.
Your premise is that this is gambling.
I am challenging that premise. So everything following that premise makes little difference at this point. My contention is that it isn't gambling.
However, you're proceeding from a certain premise.
Your premise is that this is gambling.
I am challenging that premise. So everything following that premise makes little difference at this point. My contention is that it isn't gambling.
Not exactly. Gambling is the act of placing money (for an outcome which is not certain) in a game of chance. (Look that up) The game of chance here is whether or not your new DOff would be of value (if purchased from the C-Store). There is no guaranteed outcome other than general percentages of common, vs uncommon, vs rare, vs very rare.
Edit to add: "Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Typically, the outcome of the wager is evident within a short period." (Emphasis mine)
It's gambling - and that's enough to cause them headaches legally. I'm not evaluating the moral implications. Frankly, as far as my perspective is concerned, I don't care - but I'm not the one enforcing the laws nor living in a state subject to them.
Not exactly. Gambling is the act of placing money (for an outcome which is not certain) in a game of chance. (Look that up) The game of chance here is whether or not your new DOff would be of value. There is no guaranteed outcome other than general percentages of common, vs uncommon, vs rare, vs very rare.
It's gambling - and that's enough to cause them headaches legally. I'm not evaluating the moral implications. Frankly, as far as my perspective is concerned, I don't care - but I'm not the one enforcing the laws nor living in a state subject to them.
Ok, so I go to McDonald's. I would like to buy a hamburger. I place my money (for an outcome which is not certain). The game of chance here is whether my hamburger would be of value. There is no guaranteed outcome.
Perhaps my hamburger is bad and makes me sick. You're saying this is gambling?
Comments
I'm certainly not trying to attack you personally or anything; so I hope you don't see it that way.
The point I'm trying to make is that you're purchasing something. And while you may be purchasing a chance at something. you're not only purchasing a chance at something. Just because there's a random factor on the quality of what you're purchasing, doesn't make it gambling.
The definitions of "win" you're giving are nebulous. As far as I can tell, the only reason you would consider this gambling is that the quality of DOffs you may get are clearly demarcated and not subjective. What I mean by that is, what if I went out and bought a book. The bookstore sells me the "book" just like the C-Store sells me a "Pack of DOffs". It turns out to be my favorite book ever. I "gambled" my real money on this book and I "won". The book is of use to me.
Now you buy the same book. The bookstore sells you the "book" just like the C-Store sells you a "Pack of Doffs". You hate the book. You "gambled" your real money on this book and "lost". The book is not of use to you.
The only difference is subjectivity. The end result to both transactions was that you received the thing you purchased and that there was a random factor involved.
That's one of the things I think STO has a great opportunity to do: rectify some of the inconsistencies that the show raised due to budgets.
Everything else the c-store sells you is either once per account or once per character. This is something far more dangerous to some players who may impulsively keep buying them until they find what they want or run out of money. As I wrote in post #123, players could potentially spend hundreds of dollars on these packs; money they may not be able to afford.
I'm not against selling doffs in the c-store. I'm against repeatedly selling random ones. I really hope they rethink this system, though I don't hold out much hope because it's quite possible someone out there at Cryptic hopes players will spend hundreds of dollars on these things; it's a feature, not a bug.
But you could make this argument about anything that exists and is able to be purchased.
This is where personal responsibility enters the equation. It's neither Cryptic's job nor your job to police other people's spending activities. I don't find offering a pack of random DOffs to be irresponsible to the playerbase.
I would further argue that, yes, you knew what book you were buying beforehand. But you didn't know know what was in it. Otherwise why would you read it?
I do hope that you're writing letters to the people who make Pokemon trading cards, Magic trading cards, baseball cards, etc...
Because if you're this adamant about C-store DOFFs being 'gambling', those other things have a *much* wider sales base across the country (and world). And, it would be hypocritical of you to be so vocal about the C-store DOFFs while not also being vocal about those other products to their companies, since they're promoting 'gambling' to young children according to your statements.
You've never played Magic or any of the other plethora of CCGs (including electronic 'CCG's) that have come out since then, have you? (There was even a ST electronic 'CCG' - Star Trek ConQuest.)
I highly discourage the use of gambling on the C-Store in order to obtain better DOff's. Clearly, it's a mechanic which promotes multiple purchases.
I understand the use of the C-Store and I want Cryptic to be profitable so the game grows. But I'd rather know exactly what I'm purchasing and exactly what I'm getting if I decide to make a purchase. Sell rare and very rare rewards straight up if you must.
If BD is saying you must go down this road, champion a mechanic that does not use gambling and chance as a method to promote business. It's not the right thing to do.
Pay for power like some here are calling it? With TCG, if you live in the wrong place, you just got beat.
We're all good Brother.
The randomness of the quality of the DOffs is the gambling that I do not like. Yup.
If I buy a book I know many objective things about it: The author, the publishing house, the title, and the synopsis (which granted the last one is ususally spruced up to make it seem more appealing, but at least I'll know if it's a horror book or a romance book). From these things I can find out related past works, read reviews, etc. If I pick a good publisher I'm likely to get a good quality item that's going to last years and live up to the physical trials of re-reading. There will be few editting mistakes, etc. I'll know the size, number of pages, and even weight of the book. Hard cover, soft cover, original copy, reprint, etc. There are objective "stats" that I can evaluate prior to putting down my hard earned cash. The story line and writer's capability are subjective. I didn't like Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. Many people did. But I knew what I was buying ahead of time.
If I buy a Liberated Borg from the C-Store, it lists that she has certain Traits, in this case: Borg Nanites (10% bonus to regeneration and shield regeneration), Efficient (Bonus to Efficiency), Resilient (5% bonus to Physical and Energy damage resistance) and Borg Neural Blast (short-range neural hold power). These are objective facts about this C-Store purchase. Are these better than an In-Game BO with other traits? Certainly the specific application/build will determine the answer, and while there are some ways that can be measured objectively, mostly, realistically, the valued use is subjective and based on game play and personal preference.
But, with Random DOffs, the only thing I'm going to know, it seems, is that I'll get X number of scarce cards ranging from Uncommon-Very Rare. I'll concede I don't know for sure how it's to be implemented, but I'm against the baseball card/CCG style "pack" idea that each DOff C-Store purchase includes "5 commons, 2 uncommons, and a rare card" but I don't know the stats/traits of those cards ahead of time.
Eons ago, I used to play Magic the Gathering. Really enjoyed it, too. I still occasionally purchase a pack of cards, just for the fun of it. :rolleyes:
Look, let's be clear. I'm not against Gambling in a general sense. I'm an adult. I do not have kids, and not to sound mean/cruel, but I don't care what other people/companies sell to kids, that's for their parents to police. When I have kids of my own, I'll take care of where they spend their allowance at that time.
I think the difference between MTG and STO, for instance, is I didn't have to pay a subscription fee (either monthly or an upfront LTS) for the ability to buy the random cards. In MTG, I bought new cards to hopefully get good ones to get an edge when playing my friends.
I shouldn't have to Pay-to-Win in STO. If Mary RichGirl can afford to buy lots of C-Store Packs, eventually getting better "cards" in the process, offering her an in-game advantage (however small), then I should have the same opportunity to buy the exact same items "off the shelf", not have to deal with the gambling mechanism.
As I mentioned above, I know there will be in-game mechanics (that deal in randomness, no less), but again, purchasing from the C-Store is another avenue to get the goods that may not be available to some people, or who won't/can't afford to spend on many packs to eventually hit the Jackpot.
It creates an uneven playing field where the rich (or at least those willing to spend more money) have a higher chance to get better in-game features. As I conceded in my first post, at least level the field and offer predefined packs.
Every MMO has a store that you can buy stuff from. It's not going away. Live with it!
If I had the dough i'd buy some of the uniforms and ships that are in the C-Store. I don't and I don't really care that new stuff is added to the C-store. Isn't the plan to make this stuff available in-game by some method for those of us that are poor?
THIS IDEA IS DEAD ON ARRIVAL. Do not implement. Full stop.
Until the system comes out, none of us know *anything* about the abilities they have, and from what's been said on this thread so far by Heretic, it doesn't seem as if there's any actual mechanic or ability that won't be available without buying through the C-store. It's only if you want something an all <insert species here> crew, the *fastest* way is to buy 'packs' to get a lot of those races. Again, none of us will actually know until the system and more details are revealed.
Of course, none of that stops anybody from jumping the gun, I guess.
Fixed it for you. With slots, it's entirely possible to get nothing in return for your money paid, hence 'gambling'. With the C-store BOFF packs, you always get something, but what you get is random, just like trading card game packs, which is totally different from a slot machine.
When you gamble, and I mean really legtimately gamble. You HAVE to fork over your cash. You have no other option. With DOFF packs (which I think is lame so this isn't me justifying my feelings) you do not in any way have to purchase them directly with real life money on a "gamble" that you are going to get one that you need/want.
I think it has been said by the devs that the best duty officers will be acquirable from within the Duty Officer framework. Do missions, get rewards in game.
NO kidding Cryptic setup the C-Store purchasable packs to encourage repeat transactions. It makes them money. They are a legitimate business with the right to do so. If they inadvertently step over any legal boundaries, you know the problem will be rectified in such a way to minimize the damage to their projected earnings for this product.
If you are against this idea (as I am) just don't purchase the dang thing from the C-Store. Cryptic looks at what sells, but please don't begrudge someone from spending their own money on something they want that cannot possibly impact your gameplay (Duty officers aren't a form of PvP or competition otherwise).
Rift doesn't have one at all, that I'm aware of. The only extras for it was the preorder stuff, and the digipass for extra account security.
Beyond that, while other games do have stores, not a single one of the subscription only games have a store even approaching the scale STO currently does. If you can name any feel free to point them out, cause I sure can't think of any.
yes Rift doesn't have one
The only two MMOs i am familiar with are STO, WoW, Final Fantasy 11, Final Fantasy 14, EVE, and something refered to as EQ. And whatever Cryptic's other game is.
What's 'Rift'?
Rift is a fairly recent AAA MMO launch, that has already gotten some pretty impressive awards and sub numbers from launch day.
Two problems with that argument.
1. No one buys it in the C-Store: Cryptic calls the DOff system a failure and refuses to develop more content until people become "interested" in them. Hint: Buy more Stuff!!! Sound Familiar? Sub DOff with KDF, and you have the pretty what was said in the Ask Cryptic June edition. Repeat as desired.
2. In a way, what other people have vs what I have as a DOff Will affect gameplay, even if only on a small scale. PvP can hinge on that 1 or 2% extra crit chance. And a 1% difference here and a 2% difference over there may seem small, but it all adds up.
The main issue, along with other items in the C-Store, is that they affect In-game mechanics and are more than just the fluff that was promised. Of course, Cryptic does have a way with promises...
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=217322&highlight=history
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Atari Community Rules and Policies ~InfoNinja
I think point 1 is mired in paranoia. Not that it isn't warranted, but at this point its conjecture. I would be shocked if cryptic decided to claim the duty officer system was a failure because players didn't spend extra money on the C-store. Everything I have read about it states that its an ingame system, for all players because we have asked for it. They are simply finding a way to make additional money off of it at the same time. More money for Cryptic isn't a terrible thing.
I said that the system can't affect your gameplay and it can't. The C-Store isn't the only source of the duty officers. The best ones, they have said time and time again will be gotten in game through using the system and going on missions. There is no garuntee that buying packs on the C-Store will make someone better than you in PvP.
If a 1 or possibly 2 percent increase in crit chance is enough to doom you to failure at PvP, i'd say that system is broken that skill cannot overcome 1 percent stat incrases (that you can still get ingame without spending more money)
Referring to the OP's contention that purchasing the DOffs on the C-Store might be a bad thing for the game, I tend to agree in some points and disagree in others. This is for a multitude of reasons.
PatricianVetinari correctly points out that this is similar to gambling. It may not be a lottery as such, but it is certainly gambling. Several states are strictly against that - which introduces legal issues. This, of course, doesn't count the myriad of other countries supported by Cryptic. So, this sounds to me like a very disturbing realization.
How can they have their cake and eat it too? How can we as customers have our cake and eat it too?
A combination of ideas seemed to be the best choice.
1.) Themed packs (races, for example) for common/uncommon DOffs on the C-Store (not rares, not very rares).
2.) Implement PvP methods to obtain the DOffs for those who like PvP (you could even make it such that x number of wins {or losses} in a storyline of missions for PvP would award the rare/very rare BOffs).
3.) Keep the current design for the in-game DOff system for PvE to award the rare/very rare BOffs.
4.) Limit the maximum number of Rares/Very Rares you can obtain so that doing both PvE and PvP doesn't tip or skew your rewards to be greater than that of folks who only do one or the other (You get the same quality and quantity max regardless of your method).
This, I think, would solve the legal issues, the ethical issues, and continue to allow the C-Store to serve the purpose of bringing in revenue to Cryptic.
Otherwise, I cannot understand that side of the argument.
Actually, the link was posted earlier in this thread by another person with regards to California specifically (and how that applied to even cards). I want to say it was somewhere toward the middle of the posts, but I've been at lunch the last 1.25 hours. :-)
Here is what you're talking about:
Here is the REST of the penal code:
Thus the target of this law is clearly defined as exactly something that a pack of DOffs from the C-Store would not be.
In fact, this penal code specifically states that it does not include "the distribution of any sports trading card of value by lot or by chance, which is not unlawful under other provisions of law." Which is precisely what people seem to think is a lottery in this situation.
The problem is multi-fold as far as I can ascertain. 1.) A paid for game of chance (gambling in many states) with the DOff on the C-Store. 2.) It's close enough to card trading that there's enough ambiguity (hence, not so clear) to cause legal issues for folks.
California isn't the only state. And, as others have reminded us, other states are a lot more strict on gambling, even if it is in a virtual sense, than others. (One is reminded of the online casinos which recently got busted.)
No, neither of us are lawyers, nor do I think either of us pretend to be. But, let's go one step outside the box for a second. Neither of us know the legal precedents for all 50 states. Nor do we know all of the local and national precedents allowed in all the areas Cryptic provides service and support. That requires a legal team of great size and efficiency to determine the validity -- and even that's no guarantee local or national law enforcement or judiciary counterparts will agree with said interpretation in those countries (or states locally, or even counties/cities locally).
In short, it's a big mess. So, the safest solution is to go with the options I suggested. It allows everyone to get what they want without the legal headache.
However, you're proceeding from a certain premise.
Your premise is that this is gambling.
I am challenging that premise. So everything following that premise makes little difference at this point. My contention is that it isn't gambling.
Not exactly. Gambling is the act of placing money (for an outcome which is not certain) in a game of chance. (Look that up) The game of chance here is whether or not your new DOff would be of value (if purchased from the C-Store). There is no guaranteed outcome other than general percentages of common, vs uncommon, vs rare, vs very rare.
Edit to add: "Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Typically, the outcome of the wager is evident within a short period." (Emphasis mine)
It's gambling - and that's enough to cause them headaches legally. I'm not evaluating the moral implications. Frankly, as far as my perspective is concerned, I don't care - but I'm not the one enforcing the laws nor living in a state subject to them.
Ok, so I go to McDonald's. I would like to buy a hamburger. I place my money (for an outcome which is not certain). The game of chance here is whether my hamburger would be of value. There is no guaranteed outcome.
Perhaps my hamburger is bad and makes me sick. You're saying this is gambling?