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Just say "NO!" to a for-profit lottery!

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    As usual, it seems like those who aren't willing to lay down and take it are primarily PvPers, those who are primarily PvErs. Figures... :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Hornet331 wrote: »
    Just imagine booster packs like in Magic...

    They usually come with one rare 3 uncommon and 11 common.

    Here you just probably know what rare card you will get and you will get random uncommons and commons...

    I played some trading card games in my long forgotten youth, i know how those booster packs work. The excitement and the tears when opening each pack *sigh* :D

    I just wanted clarification. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    hurleybird wrote: »
    As usual, it seems like those who aren't willing to lay down and take it are primarily PvPers, those who are primarily PvErs. Figures... :rolleyes:

    Now you're just trying to stir up more of a mess...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Ashur1 wrote:
    I played some trading card games in my long forgotten youth, i know how those booster packs work. The excitement and the tears when opening each pack *sigh* :D

    I just wanted clarification. :)

    I always had good luck with the other card collections.

    I remember in one of the Marvel series of cards, I got two Spiderman vs Venom hologram cards in a freaking row. The rarest card in the deck :p Think I even still have them...somewhere.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Hravik wrote:
    I always had good luck with the other card collections.

    I remember in one of the Marvel series of cards, I got two Spiderman vs Venom hologram cards in a freaking row. The rarest card in the deck :p Think I even still have them...somewhere.

    I still have my signed Delenn card from the Babylon 5 TCG. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    I got the Pakled ship's counselor..."

    "I will make you smart!" :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    "I will make you smart!" :D

    A Pakled...Counselor...in a bunny suit. Oh that image will haunt me for weeks. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Now you're just trying to stir up more of a mess...

    Agreed, he had a valid opinion/concern...but now seems like he's trolling his own thread

    Just because some people don't PvP doesn't mean they wouldn't care about these things.

    Pretty narrow minded imo.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Hravik wrote:
    I always had good luck with the other card collections.

    I remember in one of the Marvel series of cards, I got two Spiderman vs Venom hologram cards in a freaking row. The rarest card in the deck :p Think I even still have them...somewhere.

    I still have the "Future Enterprise" from the StarTek CCG. Anybody who also collected them knows how I felt when I opened the pack and saw that card.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    hurleybird wrote: »
    As usual, it seems like those who aren't willing to lay down and take it are primarily PvPers, those who are primarily PvErs. Figures... :rolleyes:

    Maybe because PvEr's play the game and enjoy having stuff to collect and work toward.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Agreed, he had a valid opinion/concern...but now seems like he's trolling his own thread

    Just because some people don't PvP doesn't mean they wouldn't care about these things.

    Pretty narrow minded imo.

    It was biased and uncalled for. That was me simply telling him his attempted swing was a far miss. I've said it time and time again to many like him. Cryptic above all else, is a business. And what do businesses do? Produce and sell items/services... Businesses will, and often do, cater to their customer base. Though ultimately a business will always do what is in its own best interest.

    Not even mentioning the fact that I think the whole idea of trading DOFFs like ball-cards is not only a creative solution but also potentially a lot of fun. Which if dStahl is the kind of fun-loving kid-at-heart sort that he seems to be, makes perfect sense.

    Rexy wrote:
    Maybe because PvEr's play the game and enjoy having stuff to collect and work toward.

    *Posts sign that says, "please refrain from feeding the trolls."*
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Hornet331 wrote: »
    Just imagine booster packs like in Magic...

    They usually come with one rare 3 uncommon and 11 common.
    Here you just probably know what rare card you will get and you will get random uncommons and commons...
    The worry is not whether the term "lottery" is the right word for it (i tend to think it is). The magic booster pack system is also just a way to make money, as it leads people to buy more cards in the hope of getting particular cards.

    Just because it already works for grabbing money in other markets doesn't mean we have to like it!

    If there is a also a chance of the packs in the C-Store to get randomly _better_ officers, than it seems to be very much a pay-to-win approach. There will always be Duty Officers with abilities that are better than others (even if that "better" depends on the ship you're flying or something like that).

    I disagree somewhat with hurleybird that the existing ships in the C-Store are made to be "better" than regular ships, I still attribute most imbalances here to general balance problems in the game system in balancing BO abilities. But I see that I might be in a minority here, and I still see it is a slippery slope, as it still allows doing stuff that other players can't do. That is a gameplay benefit.

    At the minimum, this is:
    Buy a ship, you randomly get one, maybe an Assault Cruiser, maybe an Excelsior.
    If you also have a chance to get a higher quality officer, it's even:
    Buy a ship, you randomly get one, maybe it's a Galaxy Class Cruiser, but maybe it's a Galaxy-R.

    I don't like this. Cryptic is slowly expanding the range of stuff that can get into the C-Store - It is a slippery slope, and it seems to work.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    why pay to win... you can also obtain doffs through various other sources (as listed by Heretic), people (again) only complain because if you don't pay you have to invest time...

    I bet if c-store method wouldn't be there from day one and you need something like 100h to deck out your crew, many people would demand c-store option.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Rokesmith wrote: »
    My interpretation of this fixed common thing is that buying dofs in the C-Store = buying a booster pack of cards which has mostly commons with the rest split between uncommons and usually at least 1 rare.

    And, as in that case, they who spend the most, get the highest chance to get the best, and can also sell off the ones they didn't particularly want. So it is explicitly increasing a player's available gameplay powers and access to in-game currency for real money.

    Cryptic, this is exactly the sort of thing that many people bemoaning the PW acquisition have been expecting.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    And, as in that case, they who spend the most, get the highest chance to get the best, and can also sell off the ones they didn't particularly want. So it is explicitly increasing a player's available gameplay powers and access to in-game currency for real money.

    Cryptic, this is exactly the sort of thing that many people bemoaning the PW acquisition have been expecting.

    But the deal isn´t finalized yet, so PW has nothing to do with it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Ashur1 wrote:
    But the deal isn´t finalized yet, so PW has nothing to do with it.

    Exactly how far along the transfer has gotten is unclear, but that's not exactly what I was trying to say.

    People have been worried that PW would institute TRIBBLE like this as soon as they get in charge, so how is it a good thing that Cryptic goes ahead and does it preemptively? It's continuing on with doing the exactly what they've been claiming to not plan to do with the C-store the whole time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    And, as in that case, they who spend the most, get the highest chance to get the best, and can also sell off the ones they didn't particularly want. So it is explicitly increasing a player's available gameplay powers and access to in-game currency for real money.

    Cryptic, this is exactly the sort of thing that many people bemoaning the PW acquisition have been expecting.

    Yes and also those who spent the most time in the doff system will have the highest chance to get the best and sell of those doffs they don't want need and will also get more ingame powers...

    I dont get your point... you can get the best when you invest time, you can get the best when you pay the c-store and you get avarage stuff when you invest no time and no money and nothing when you invest nothing...

    Why do people nowadays expect to get best stuff with minimal effort... hell in other games they grind days and weeks to get certain gear or enough dkp for that gear....

    Cryptic offers you an optional shortcut... wuhaaaa greedy c-stroe *******s wuheeee..
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    If some of Heretic's earlier explanations are anything to go by, we should be able to improve the quality of DOs by sending them on assignments. Quality and rarity are not apparently entirely tied together, it seems we can train a "common" DO to be better or equal to a "rare" one.

    This may well be an issue only for those intent on trying to rush through the system.

    Ofcourse I could be misinterpreting what has been disclosed so far, some of the answers/explanations are a little... cryptic. (I blame the marketing department)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Rexy wrote:
    Maybe because PvEr's play the game and enjoy having stuff to collect and work toward.

    There is nothing wrong with collecting stuff. But buying the stuff you collect in a game you already pay a subscription for?

    And the point is this is more than just collecting stuff. It's also about getting items that get you mechanical advantages and benefits. Stuff that makes you better?

    The endpoint- even if it's still far off - of such a development is that you have to pay your subscription to play the game, and if you want any chance of completing the next Featured Episodes or an STF, you need to buy certain items to have a chance to beat your enemies. Or, if you're very lucky, you have to grind 3 months before you can do the next featured episodes.

    Yes, we aren't there yet, but the game will be moving more and more into that direction if we don't critisize it early and often.

    (I still disagree with the idea that this is a PvP vs PvE player issue. Some players just don't agree with the risks or they might not even care about it. Threads like this are about raising the awareness in the players and Cryptic that there should be limits.)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Hornet331 wrote: »
    Yes and also those who spent the most time in the doff system will have the highest chance to get the best and sell of those doffs they don't want need.

    I dont get your point... you can get the best when you invest time, you can get the best when you pay the c-store.

    Why do people nowadays expect to get best stuff with minimal effort... hell they grind days and weeks in wow to get certain gear or enough dkp...

    I don't think it's a matter of getting the best stuff with minimal effort. The C-store in the eyes of its detractors is basically seen as a "Let's milk our fans just a little more" move.

    Case and point, we pay a subscription to this game and it seems like most of the extras (uniforms, ships etc) in-game come as C-store additions.

    Now, you're arguing that it's grinding only a few days or maybe weeks to get your favorite item which I will call YFI. Maybe for items requiring emblems, but what about marks of exploration? I don't believe there's another way to obtain marks of exploration in game other than that single daily. So it'd literally take 125 days or approximately 18 weeks to grind out the necessary number of marks of exploration to get YFI.

    It's not a matter of whether people will work hard for YFI, it's a matter of why in-game do I have to spend extra money to get YFI or grind for weeks to months to get YFI? Really, playing the same mission for the everyday for the next 18 weeks?

    So, I have two questions for you or any other pro C-store person:
    1) Why am I paying a subscription when it appears that most of the new items that come out need to be paid for? Or grinded for marks or emblems for disproportionate amount of time?
    2) And in case, you're on the side that the C-store is improving the game by giving the developers an additional revenue source, how has the C-store directly improved the game?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Hornet331 wrote: »
    Yes and also those who spent the most time in the doff system will have the highest chance to get the best and sell of those doffs they don't want need and will also get more ingame powers...
    .
    And what if you do both? Use the DOFF system and buy stuff? Your real world money is still giving you an in-game advantage. At what point does that in-game advantage turn into a necessity to play the game?

    Maybe the DOFF system won't quite achieve that. But maybe the next tier of ships and items in the C-Store will do it? Maybe new C-Store races and BOFFs will do it? Maybe some new items will do it?

    And should this game go F2P, things can get even worse. CO basically already has power for money - sure, none of the items work in PvP (AFAIK), but having a healing power item that restores all health is a pretty good advantage when you try to beat a hard level. Who is to say that STO's difficulty level won't increase (particularly if such an F2P thing goes on). Suddenly having all Purple DOFF could becomes more of a necessity, as every tiny bonus counts?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Hornet331 wrote: »
    Yes and also those who spent the most time in the doff system will have the highest chance to get the best and sell of those doffs they don't want need.

    I dont get your point... you can get the best when you invest time, you can get the best when you pay the c-store.

    Why do people nowadays expect to get best stuff with minimal effort... hell they grind days and weeks in wow to get certain gear or enough dkp...

    The point is that these systems usually end up with the people paying having a distinct advantage:

    Example:

    SWG Trading Card Game - Lootcards

    The first bunch of lootcards was fluff items - Costumes, Unique player housings etc. much like the CStore in STO

    With each expansion, more and more gamechanging lootcards were added.

    Today the best interceptor class ship (V-Wing) can only be aquired as a lootcard.

    There are two ways of aquireing these cards

    1: You get 5 free packs weekly
    2: You can buy boosters

    Lootcards are random.. You only have a slight chance of getting a lootcard, and certain cards have an extremely high rarity. In essence it would be akin to Blizzard giving you 5 free Ball/Hellruns in Diablo 2 per week - And making sure the best uniques could only be looted off Baal.

    Sure, you could take your 5 free runs, and do that for 5 years, without getting the item you desire. Or you could buy unlimited runs, setup a Ball bot and just let it run without interference.

    Fact: I have friends that have spent 4-500 USD on SWG boosterpacks before getting the V-Wing they desired. They could then use the ship, and have a huge advantage compared to people sifting through their free cards for 2-3 years without getting it.

    I wouldnt be surprised if the DOFF system starts out relatively equal, and then in 2-3 months we figure out we have a significant higher chance of aquireing a rare trait/power by purchasing X DOFF packs. Its bad enough that we will potentially see far better returns from paying $$, its moneygrubbin that its completely random.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Whether you want to call it a lottery or "collectable card game", it's just different terms for the same thing. Regardless, this *isn't* Star Trek: The Gathering.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    hurleybird wrote: »
    So I can grind one hour of OT at work and buy a couple ships for my entire account, or a month of grinding emblems in STO to get a single ship that only works on the one character.

    Logic FTW :rolleyes:

    Hint: The 500 emblem thing is only there to make you think that you have a choice, and to give you a comparison that makes the $12-20 dollar asking price not look completely ridiculous.

    So grinding for new equipment is bad and buying new equipment is bad too.

    ...

    Just making sure that we all are on the same page here.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    hurleybird wrote: »
    So I can grind one hour of OT at work and buy a couple ships for my entire account, or a month of grinding emblems in STO to get a single ship that only works on the one character.

    Logic FTW :rolleyes:

    Hint: The 500 emblem thing is only there to make you think that you have a choice, and to give you a comparison that makes the $12-20 dollar asking price not look completely ridiculous.

    The ingame method of obtaining the c-store ships is clearly one of the most glaring examples of a F2P mechanic implanted into a subscription game.

    The fact that the in-game obtained ship is not account wide, makes it more obvious.

    The c-store DOs are another F2P mechanism. There should NOT be a c-store option for obtaining DOs, and MUCH LESS with a warranty of getting rare or uncommon ones. IF there was to be a c-store available DO pack, it should have EXACTLY the same ratios that the in-game options have. If someone is stupid enough to waste cash in the c-store, let them, but don't give an edge to purchasing with real money over getting them ingame.

    The intentions behind all these is obvious: to change the player base mentality to accept the asian model of MMORPG, so they can milk our cash without complaints.

    Let me clear about this: I pay for STO. Every month. So I expect:

    1) to be able to play every time I decide to. Obviously, this excludes power outages, natural disasters, malicious attacks, and "acts of God" on any of both ends, mine and Cryptic's,

    2) fixing of bugs on a regular basis, with any dangerous bugs, exploits and in general bugs that require immediate attention being treated immediately. If any bug NEEDS the whole dev team to stop doing what they are doing and concentrate on fixing it, so be it. NOTHING has priority over bug fixing. This also means that with any excuse for a patch, several easy to fix bugs should be introduced. We all know that some bugs can be fixed with a minor tweak or even without recompiling the whole game, so why we didn't get ANY bug fix in the last patches?

    3) My money to be spent PRIORITARILY on STO. I don't give a care about pointy-eared Elves on Neverwinter, but I DO care about pointy-eared Vulcans. Any of my cash re-directed to non-STO games is stealing me. So between hiring another dev for STO or Neverwinter, MY answer is clear. If the player base of STO is big to the point of "overflowing" cash to other games, reduce (not necessarily "stop" ) the "overflow", and hire more people so what I pay gets back in the form of new STO content.

    Whew. This post came a little more selfish that I wanted it to be, but I hope it brings the point clear. I used the singular person not because selfish reasons, but because I cannot speak for other people, simply that.

    I expect the money I pay to be spent on STO, not anything else.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    hurleybird wrote: »
    Whether you want to call it a lottery or "collectable card game", it's just different terms for the same thing. Regardless, this *isn't* Star Trek: The Gathering.


    Like my edit say.. Its bad enough that they charge RL money for higher chance of desireable powers, making it a lottery (which a random pack system is) is just ridiculous.

    "Yes, you can pay up front and get what you want, if you dont want to, you also have the option to do this tedious and repetitive mission 5 times daily for the next two years."
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    There is nothing wrong with collecting stuff. But buying the stuff you collect in a game you already pay a subscription for?

    This is exactly the point: We are already paying a subscription.

    Why is it that C-Store items are not available via in-game means? We cannot get uniforms without paying real money for it and we cannot even get the C-Store ship items in-game (that is, we cannot purchase the account-wide unlock with in-game currency, only the 500 emblembs per ship and character fig leaf; and of course the devs always dodge the question why we cannot have an account-wide unlock for emblems).

    Can't we just swap C-Store and non-C-Store stuff? Make the featured episodes C-store packs and give us the ships and uniforms "for free" (i.e. for our subscription money)?
    Or make everything a C-Store item and give every subscriber a fixed amount of Cryptic Points per month so that each player can decide what they want to have for their subscription money?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    I expect the money I pay to be spent on STO, not anything else.

    That is not how ANY major business that I'm aware of operates.

    Say you buy an Ipod touch and its the only Apple product you enjoy. That money goes to Apple to use how they see fit, not in a pot specifically for Ipod development. Thats just not how it works and its ridiculous to think that Cryptic does or should work that way.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Fact: I have friends that have spent 4-500 USD on SWG boosterpacks before getting the V-Wing they desired. They could then use the ship, and have a huge advantage compared to people sifting through their free cards for 2-3 years without getting it.

    But, but, but...

    That's Lucas Arts. This is Cryptic. We all know Cryptic is better than that and hasn't slid down slippery slopes in the past :rolleyes:

    *cough* No gameplay changing micro-transactions my TRIBBLE *cough*
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Fenrir1536 wrote: »
    That is not how ANY major business that I'm aware of operates.

    Say you buy an Ipod touch and its the only Apple product you enjoy. That money goes to Apple to use how they see fit, not in a pot specifically for Ipod development. Thats just not how it works and its ridiculous to think that Cryptic does or should work that way.

    Sorry to break your analogy, but if I purchase an IIpod ( yuck! ), I get an Ipod and that's it. I put my money for an object, got it, and they can do what they please with the money because I got what I wanted. It's a once-happening occurrence.

    If I pay my electric bill, I don't expect to get water of the wall outlet, just electricity. I also expect that as long as I pay my bill, I get electricity to the power limit of my contract. If the company gets more than enough money to assure that, I expect them to make improvements to the power grid, like alternative power routes or whatever to insure the flow of electricity coming to my house. And obviously, if something happens to the power grid, I expect them to fix it on the double and regardless of what it costs them.

    If they have more than enough money to do all that, and have a surplus for buying a water company, more power to them, but I expect my electric company to provide me with whatever electricity related products my money has helped to produce. I don't care about the water company they bought, I do care about my electricity. But if my electric service is hampered because of the water company, I will complain.
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