How many Andorians have you seen in the entire Star Trek run of series?
Fair point, but that's arguably a budget issue not a reflection on relative prominence. The game has addressed that already with liberal volume of Andorian BOFFs and Andorian captains. It seems a tad silly to have Andorians commonly available as BOFFs but listed as "uncommon" DOFFs. If it's a Founding Member species they should be the same rarity as Humans.
I largely agree with hurley this time, basically proving this has nothing to do with pvp vs pve. One thing people haven't really dealt with in this thread, of which I read the entirety, is this is something different than anything the c-store has done before. Everything currently in the c-store is something you can buy, where you know the item and the price beforehand. Now they're asking us to spend money on something unknown, where you can often spend real money for something of no value. Common doffs will quickly become worth basically zero. A few will be bought by completists wanting an all vulcan crew or whatnot, but most will be essentially worthless in the game. It may or may not be correctly categorized as a lottery, but it IS gambling. You're spending money that may well purchase nothing of value.
The argument to me isn't between c-store detractors vs. enthusiasts or pvp vs. pve, but between those who thought it fine to buy a hundred Magic the Gathering booster packs to get that one card they wanted and those who did not. I'm a game geek over 50 years old. So I've been around for all of the computer games history and of course was there for the entire history of the TCG too. But I did not play Magic or Pokemon or any other TCG. Because I don't like to gamble my money. I don't go to Vegas to play casinos for the same reason. If you want to sell me a doff, be my guest. Make it something you can get in game as well and it's fine. But asking me to repeatedly buy something with real money that will often result in me getting nothing of value is something different. This is enticing players with poor impulse control to spend money they can't afford to get something they may never get. This potentially can cost an individual player hundreds of dollars. You could buy every other single item in the c-store and spend less.
Of course someone will chime in and tell me I don't have to buy them. And I probably will not. But I do spend money in the c-store. I bought every ship and almost every costume. But every time I knew what I was buying. Some things weren't worth the price, so I didn't buy the Garumba until it was half price. That weekend I decided the value equalled the price. But these random packs have no actual value that rises much above zero, at least once a few weeks have passed. The exchange will be selling common doffs for almost nothing by that time.
This is a bad precedent, something you previously only saw in trading card games and ftp facebook type games. It's good for the company perhaps, but bad for players, and really bad for some players who have a gambling problem.
I don't know if this will be pay to win or not. The implementation will determine this. But it is a way to get a lot of money out of players for something of dubious to no value. And we do need to reiterate that this is a pay to play game with a monthly subscription.
You want my money for doffs? Sell me a Vulcan doff pack. I know something I value will be inside then. Asking me to spend real dollars on a pig-in-a-poke is not something I find compelling, and I find potentially bad for the players and for the game as a whole.
I largely agree with hurley this time, basically proving this has nothing to do with pvp vs pve. One thing people haven't really dealt with in this thread, of which I read the entirety, is this is something different than anything the c-store has done before. Everything currently in the c-store is something you can buy, where you know the item and the price beforehand. Now they're asking us to spend money on something unknown, where you can often spend real money for something of no value. Common doffs will quickly become worth basically zero. A few will be bought by completists wanting an all vulcan crew or whatnot, but most will be essentially worthless in the game. It may or may not be correctly categorized as a lottery, but it IS gambling. You're spending money that may well purchase nothing of value.
The argument to me isn't between c-store detractors vs. enthusiasts or pvp vs. pve, but between those who thought it fine to buy a hundred Magic the Gathering booster packs to get that one card they wanted and those who did not. I'm a game geek over 50 years old. So I've been around for all of the computer games history and of course was there for the entire history of the TCG too. But I did not play Magic or Pokemon or any other TCG. Because I don't like to gamble my money. I don't go to Vegas to play casinos for the same reason. If you want to sell me a doff, be my guest. Make it something you can get in game as well and it's fine. But asking me to repeatedly buy something with real money that will often result in me getting nothing of value is something different. This is enticing players with poor impulse control to spend money they can't afford to get something they may never get. This potentially can cost an individual player hundreds of dollars. You could buy every other single item in the c-store and spend less.
Of course someone will chime in and tell me I don't have to buy them. And I probably will not. But I do spend money in the c-store. I bought every ship and almost every costume. But every time I knew what I was buying. Some things weren't worth the price, so I didn't buy the Garumba until it was half price. That weekend I decided the value equalled the price. But these random packs have no actual value that rises much above zero, at least once a few weeks have passed. The exchange will be selling common doffs for almost nothing by that time.
This is a bad precedent, something you previously only saw in trading card games and ftp facebook type games. It's good for the company perhaps, but bad for players, and really bad for some players who have a gambling problem.
I don't know if this will be pay to win or not. The implementation will determine this. But it is a way to get a lot of money out of players for something of dubious to no value. And we do need to reiterate that this is a pay to play game with a monthly subscription.
You want my money for doffs? Sell me a Vulcan doff pack. I know something I value will be inside then. Asking me to spend real dollars on a pig-in-a-poke is not something I find compelling, and I find potentially bad for the players and for the game as a whole.
Unfortunately, I bought an LTS. Largely because of their assurances that this ******** wouldn't happen.
You know...
I could deal with game altering content in the C-Store if they were consistent about it.
But the decision to make special race BOs a separate purchase and this make the C-Store look like a wild flailing for cash instead of an internally consistent business plan. I want to believe in the devs more than this kind of plan allows me to.
It's good for the company perhaps, but bad for players, and really bad for some players who have a gambling problem.
Maybe this is an angle to attack DOffs in the C-Store? Cryptic losing their precious age rating (which prevented true open jacket uniforms) because of gambling with real money in the game?
Maybe this is an angle to attack DOffs in the C-Store? Cryptic losing their precious age rating (which prevented true open jacket uniforms) because of gambling with real money in the game?
Holy TRIBBLE.. youd better make all those pokemon trade cards illigal for everyone under 21...
While you can certainly bolster what you have available via C-Store purchases, there are several other routes to gaining even the highest quality levels of duty officers (purples); my suspicion is actually that the C-Store will mostly be a route taken by collectors who are trying to collect all-Orion or all-Vulcan crews and similar rp-themed arrangements.
Then why not sell individual Duty Officers? This way, those who want to 'collect them all' can do so, without ending up with Duty Officer 'cards' that they don't want or need. The current mechanism as described ultimately depends on consumers paying for something they don't want.
This isn't giving the consumer a choice. It's giving the consumer a chance. A chance that's determined by the roll of a dice that only Cryptic can see, with no guarantee that the roll is fair.
The rarity of Magic: the Gathering cards was determined by the proof sheets at Carta Mundi back in the day, so the odds of receiving a particular card could be independently determined.
What are the odds of receiving a particular Duty Officer from a C-Store pack, based on Rarity and Quality?
Will these odds be published, in the same way that physical card collation is published by TCG companies?
Will a third party overseer be brought in to verify the odds are as published?
Most importantly. Even if the odds were published and independently verified - how can Cryptic guarantee these odds will be upheld with each purchase?
Bear in mind that the odds of receiving an 'Aid the Planet' mission were skewed dramatically a year ago - with no Dev acknowledgement for weeks. What's to prevent this from happening again - and how would Cryptic react if it does?
In addition, this may very well qualify as a Lottery according to Californian Gambling Legislation:
Penal Code Sec. 319.3.
319.3. (a) In addition to Section 319, a lottery also shall include a grab bag game which is a scheme whereby, for the disposal or distribution of sports trading cards by chance, a person pays valuable consideration to purchase a sports trading card grab bag with the understanding that the purchaser has a chance to win a designated prize or prizes listed by the seller as being contained in one or more, but not all, of the grab bags.
I'm not a lawyer, and fully admit that I've only taken a cursory glance, but I'm sure the linked legalese will help folk defend or attack the various points raised in this thread.
Why would an Andorian DOFF be inherently more rare than Human DOFF?
As some have noticed, there is an IP argument, which was where it started, but the reason it stayed alive was the systemic benefit of not rigidly yoking collectors' needs to min-maxers' needs, which means those respective economies are more independent of each other.
regarding commendations..whihc i assume means certain accolades or accolade combinations is that retroactive??
With the probably exception of Diplomacy, these will probably all be new accolades, so this should not generally be an issue. For Diplomacy, we are making sure that those who have already grinded Diplomacy are not penalized.
Will the odds of obtaining a particular combination of rarity and quality from a 'booster' be published?
The precise numbers are fairly complex because it relies on a system of weighting rather than a ratio, but the broad ratios are pretty straightforward. Currently - and I am quite certain this will change after we see how it plays out on Tribble - it's more or less an exponential schedule of rarity with Rares being ten times as rare as Uncommons, and Very Rares being ten times as rare as Rares.
The standard C-Store pack is currently being envisioned as something like 5 Commons and 2 Uncommons or better - meaning, while a Rare or Very Rare is possible to get, it isn't something I would ever count on, since in this case, an Uncommon currently has a weighting of 100, a Rare of 10 and a Very Rare of 1. Moreover, we expect the standard pack to be pretty cheap. We are still working out the details, particularly beyond the standard pack, but the final cost will obviously remain in line with the rarity.
Given that you can get guaranteed Blues and Purples with a precisely known species and specialization through tiering up in the various commendation categories, I expect this in-game method to remain the practical avenue for most people.
Well now that we're on the same page, let's all recognize that we don't have all the facts on how rare the green/blue/purple/yellow/black missions spawn. For all we know we'll be tripping over them like we do with boffs near the end of the game.
The frequency varies on a lot of factors, but in the same way that a standard pack will have something like five Commons and two Uncommons or better, the assignments available in most sectors will mirror this model. For example, I enter into the Vulcan Sector and check my available assignments tab and it will show me eight or so Common assignments and two Uncommon or better assignments.
Because, however, I have a limited number of assignments I can have going simultaneously, and because different assignments will be available in different sectors, if I don't like the selection in one sector I can always check another sector's available assignments, or simply wait for the available assignments to refresh, something which currently is set to about every four hours, though it wouldn't surprise me to see that change during testing.
Then why not sell individual Duty Officers? This way, those who want to 'collect them all' can do so, without ending up with Duty Officer 'cards' that they don't want or need. The current mechanism as described ultimately depends on consumers paying for something they don't want.
This, and many other possibilities are all still under consideration.
The precise numbers are fairly complex because it relies on a system of weighting rather than a ratio, but the broad ratios are pretty straightforward. Currently - and I am quite certain this will change after we see how it plays out on Tribble - it's more or less an exponential schedule of rarity with Rares being ten times as rare as Uncommons, and Very Rares being ten times as rare as Rares.
The standard C-Store pack is currently being envisioned as something like 5 Commons and 2 Uncommons or better - meaning, while a Rare or Very Rare is possible to get, it isn't something I would ever count on, since in this case, an Uncommon currently has a weighting of 100, a Rare of 10 and a Very Rare of 1. Moreover, we expect the standard pack to be pretty cheap. We are still working out the details, particularly beyond the standard pack, but the final cost will obviously remain in line with the rarity.
Thank you very much for taking the time to clarify this. Knowing the numbers helps players make an informed decision toward whether they will buy the packs or grind the system.
You mention 'Standard' packs. Does this mean more expensive 'Deluxe' packs will be available as well? If so, will Deluxe collation be more comparable with the in-game method?
Second, the not too long ago is subject to inflation, and sub prices haven't risen. Also, with the advent of HD gaming, subs still haven't risen. There needs to be a way to supplement the sub to make up the new cost of game production in today's world.
I'm going to base this off of a wow subscription because for a variety of reasons it is the easiest. WoW was released in 2004 with a subscription rate of $15.00 USD. WoW has not upped its subscription rates in the intervening years. If you take into account the average rate of inflation in the United States, other countries are outside the scope of my thinking at the moment, then that subscription fee that was worth $15.00 USD in 2004 is now worth roughly $12.41 USD.
When considered across tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or in the case of WoW, millions of subscribers were talking about significant sums of resources.
I personally I am opposed to BOs in the C-Store , when they should have been in game in the first place, unlocking playable species I ok with. The Borg Preorder I am fine with so many can obtain them, but its not practical for the species that should of been in game already.
Duty Officer System- I feel you Doffs and Boffs should be Purple and a few blue after the rank of RA, at Captain or lower it should be randomized but the higher your rank the more likey you should get the rarer doffs.
As some have noticed, there is an IP argument, which was where it started, but the reason it stayed alive was the systemic benefit of not rigidly yoking collectors' needs to min-maxers' needs, which means those respective economies are more independent of each other.
The standard C-Store pack is currently being envisioned as something like 5 Commons and 2 Uncommons or better - meaning, while a Rare or Very Rare is possible to get, it isn't something I would ever count on, since in this case, an Uncommon currently has a weighting of 100, a Rare of 10 and a Very Rare of 1. Moreover, we expect the standard pack to be pretty cheap. We are still working out the details, particularly beyond the standard pack, but the final cost will obviously remain in line with the rarity.
The frequency varies on a lot of factors, but in the same way that a standard pack will have something like five Commons and two Uncommons or better, the assignments available in most sectors will mirror this model. For example, I enter into the Vulcan Sector and check my available assignments tab and it will show me eight or so Common assignments and two Uncommon or better assignments.
This, and many other possibilities are all still under consideration.
Does this mean that it will be basically impossible to get a very rare andorian boff for example through these packs? Since you basically go down one rarity level for getting that alien species.
I hope you read my post about the gambling aspect of this random pack business. Common doffs will be as worthless as common boffs very soon after the launch of the doff system. Paying real money for them will not sit well with many of us. I want to know when I spend my real money on something that I'm getting something of value for it.
Many people have compared the C-Store DOff packs to baseball cards or a CCG (such as Magic the Gathering). And while those collections have their place and can be fun things, the biggest difference is you do not pay a subscription to buy those cards.
:mad: This is a Pay-to-Play game. Having fluff items in the C-Store is one thing.
Having clear advantage-giving mechanisms, especially random chance options, is an awful idea! :mad:
I hate the slippery slope aspect of this. We're getting so far down that slope it's not even funny. If I had to concede to the C-Store DOffs, at least make them a pre-known pack of X, Y, and Z cards. The "Vulcan Pack" or "Engineer's Pack" or whatever. But list exactly what is contained (Sort of like the Magic pre-made decks).
No Random Sets For Real Money.
When you start putting a random element in there you are gambling. You are playing a lottery.
Shakkar makes an excellent point. I remember playing Magic back in the day. And while it was fun to get that awesome surprise "chase card" - it was all the more worse/disappointing when your "Guaranteed One Rare Card Per Pack" was your fifth copy of some power/creature that was so useless you couldn't sell, trade, or even give it away.
Hint: The 500 emblem thing is only there to make you think that you have a choice, and to give you a comparison that makes the $12-20 dollar asking price not look completely ridiculous.
I'm going to base this off of a wow subscription because for a variety of reasons it is the easiest. WoW was released in 2004 with a subscription rate of $15.00 USD. WoW has not upped its subscription rates in the intervening years. If you take into account the average rate of inflation in the United States, other countries are outside the scope of my thinking at the moment, then that subscription fee that was worth $15.00 USD in 2004 is now worth roughly $12.41 USD.
When considered across tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or in the case of WoW, millions of subscribers were talking about significant sums of resources.
Perhaps, but wages in the US have been stagnant for 10 years, so while inflation has slowly gone up over that time, the wages have not and to raise the sub price would be asking for a larger percentage of disposable income, which is probably why the price across the board for MMO subs did not go up. I understand the need for companies to increase their income, so I don't complain about the c-store in general, but I do about this new implementation for it.
Does this mean that it will be basically impossible to get a very rare andorian boff for example through these packs? Since you basically go down one rarity level for getting that alien species.
I hope you read my post about the gambling aspect of this random pack business. Common doffs will be as worthless as common boffs very soon after the launch of the doff system. Paying real money for them will not sit well with many of us. I want to know when I spend my real money on something that I'm getting something of value for it.
I believe some one mentioned this before and to add another variable to the mix. It is possible there may not be a lot separating the 3 but then that destroys the DOff system, or it could go the other way and make the Rares and Very Rares "godly" and then brings in the pay to win scenario. Ideally Cryptic should make all DOffs common with crafting or C-Store boosters that relatively cheap that help boost DOffs after mission completion.
Does this mean that it will be basically impossible to get a very rare andorian boff for example through these packs? Since you basically go down one rarity level for getting that alien species.
I hope you read my post about the gambling aspect of this random pack business. Common doffs will be as worthless as common boffs very soon after the launch of the doff system. Paying real money for them will not sit well with many of us. I want to know when I spend my real money on something that I'm getting something of value for it.
No, it will always cap out at Very Rare. All species have Purple variants. (Some specializations, however, only come at the White quality level, but that's a separate issue.)
Effective value is not simply a matter of having the highest quality duty officers, but also the appropriate selection. For example, it does me little good to have four Purple quality Doctors if I have no interest in running Medical assignments and really want to run Colonial assignments, for which I need Quartermasters. Moreover, number matters as well - if I want to run multiple simultaneous Colonial assignments in an effort to maximize my advancement on the Colonial track, it isn't enough that I have one Blue or Purple Quartermaster, I might actually statistically be better off with three White quality Quartermasters.
As for the gambling aspect, I cannot comment on that, as that goes to business development and legal issues I am not qualified to address.
Many people have compared the C-Store DOff packs to baseball cards or a CCG (such as Magic the Gathering). And while those collections have their place and can be fun things, the biggest difference is you do not pay a subscription to buy those cards.
:mad: This is a Pay-to-Play game. Having fluff items in the C-Store is one thing.
Having clear advantage-giving mechanisms, especially random chance options, is an awful idea! :mad:
I hate the slippery slope aspect of this. We're getting so far down that slope it's not even funny. If I had to concede to the C-Store DOffs, at least make them a pre-known pack of X, Y, and Z cards. The "Vulcan Pack" or "Engineer's Pack" or whatever. But list exactly what is contained (Sort of like the Magic pre-made decks).
No Random Sets For Real Money.
When you start putting a random element in there you are gambling. You are playing a lottery.
Shakkar makes an excellent point. I remember playing Magic back in the day. And while it was fun to get that awesome surprise "chase card" - it was all the more worse/disappointing when your "Guaranteed One Rare Card Per Pack" was your fifth copy of some power/creature that was so useless you couldn't sell, trade, or even give it away.
Well said, and so very, very true.
/ Agreed I interrupt it the same way not a big fan of the idea
As for the gambling aspect, I cannot comment on that, as that goes to business development and legal issues I am not qualified to address.
*sigh*
I really appreciate the work you're putting into this system and hate that it gets intertwined with business model discussions.
One thing that is frustrating is that while we have content developers' ears, it's always felt like we had a weaker channel to marketing and an even weaker channel to the folks who make business decisions.
It's certainly POSSIBLE to reach the marcom people through these forums and via community teams but I feel like a lot of the business decisions are made by people less actively engaged with the community and 75% of the strife on the forums comes from people whose grievances are directed at those folks, not you or Stahl... or the frustration that results from the lack of the business folks' engagement with the community.
I know this isn't altogether unusual for a gaming company but it stands out in contrast to how the rest of Cryptic is run.
Is there a way we could get someone who does have a stronger say in the business aspects into a Q&A, interview, or town hall, either via Cryptic or one of the established podcasts?
I feel like Roper and Jack used to speak to some of those issues (I've always appreciated Jack's theorycrafting on the business aspects) but they're hardly around and we don't know where this stuff originates or what the theory behind it is, which tends to (unfortunately) paint them as "evil anonymous men in suits out to ruin our game." We get a lot of creatives saying, "It's not my call." But we never hear from the people whose call it is.
No, it will always cap out at Very Rare. All species have Purple variants. (Some specializations, however, only come at the White quality level, but that's a separate issue.)
Effective value is not simply a matter of having the highest quality duty officers, but also the appropriate selection. For example, it does me little good to have four Purple quality Doctors if I have no interest in running Medical assignments and really want to run Colonial assignments, for which I need Quartermasters. Moreover, number matters as well - if I want to run multiple simultaneous Colonial assignments in an effort to maximize my advancement on the Colonial track, it isn't enough that I have one Blue or Purple Quartermaster, I might actually statistically be better off with three White quality Quartermasters.
As for the gambling aspect, I cannot comment on that, as that goes to business development and legal issues I am not qualified to address.
You have a point about specialization and desired assignments, but if I had 4 purple quality doctors that means I can trade them for something probably better than common of the desired other doffs. It will probably always be better to have 4 purples in hand than 4 commons, since we can trade the purples for what we want.
I wasn't aware that some assignment possibilities would not have uncommon or better doffs to do them. That might make those commons of some value. But look at the boff system. You can buy common boffs for very little money on the exchange. People will want to throw away their least valuable common doffs on the exchange and any random packs people buy will also contain some they don't want. The exchange will be swamped with a large and cheap selection of common doffs which will become more so over time. So buying random packs that will largely contain these commons will not be worth real money over that time. This leads some to buy ever more of them looking for that .1% that will be very rare.
You cannot of course comment on legal issues of gambling, since your legal dept. would have something bad to say about that. But I think you know that whatever the legalities are, selling these random packs IS gambling. It is unlike every other thing the c-store has done before. I urge you as a designer to push for selling objects of defined value. You can design doffs, put ones you design for sale on the store, at least as a choice to buying the random packs. Sell us a Neelix as a cook, for example. I may or may not want one, but at least I have a choice to buy something I can see.
You know, it's funny... But There are definitely times I wish I could toss them $5 if it would encourage C-Store development resources to be reassigned to the game instead of more C-Store assets.
It's certainly POSSIBLE to reach the marcom people through these forums and via community teams but I feel like a lot of the business decisions are made by people less actively engaged with the community and 75% of the strife on the forums comes from people whose grievances are directed at those folks, not you or Stahl... or the frustration that results from the lack of the business folks' engagement with the community.
Succinctly put, and wholeheartedly agreed.
Heretic's presence in this thread has turned what could have been another vicious meltdown into something resembling a reasonable discussion between adults.
Many people have compared the C-Store DOff packs to baseball cards or a CCG (such as Magic the Gathering). And while those collections have their place and can be fun things, the biggest difference is you do not pay a subscription to buy those cards.
:mad: This is a Pay-to-Play game. Having fluff items in the C-Store is one thing.
Having clear advantage-giving mechanisms, especially random chance options, is an awful idea! :mad:
I hate the slippery slope aspect of this. We're getting so far down that slope it's not even funny. If I had to concede to the C-Store DOffs, at least make them a pre-known pack of X, Y, and Z cards. The "Vulcan Pack" or "Engineer's Pack" or whatever. But list exactly what is contained (Sort of like the Magic pre-made decks).
No Random Sets For Real Money.
When you start putting a random element in there you are gambling. You are playing a lottery.
Shakkar makes an excellent point. I remember playing Magic back in the day. And while it was fun to get that awesome surprise "chase card" - it was all the more worse/disappointing when your "Guaranteed One Rare Card Per Pack" was your fifth copy of some power/creature that was so useless you couldn't sell, trade, or even give it away.
Well said, and so very, very true.
Your contention is that when a kid buys baseball cards, he's gambling?
I find it absolutely fascinating the views people have on things.
From...the love of God...I would love nothing more than for Dstahl to come in here and say, "Boy that was a stupid idea, never mind". Please Cryptic, prove me wrong.
1a : to play a game for money or property b : to bet on an uncertain outcome
2: to stake something on a contingency : take a chance
Definitions 1b and 2 fit the practice of baseball card packs perfectly.
In the case of Johnny Jr. buying his cards, he is staking his $3 (or whatever a pack of cards costs) that he gets his Rookie Ace Player Card (or whatever other "chase card" he's hoping for). And what does he do when he doesn't get said card? He ante's up again and buys another pack. Repeat until addiction is satisfied. (Yes, I'm being extreme with the word "addiction", but the basic principal applies.)
Paying Cryptic/Atari/PW Tokens for random DOffs is staking your money (in the form of Tokens... think Las Vegas Poker Chips) against the uncertain (ie random) contingency that you'll get "dealt a good hand" and get good Uncommons, Rares, or Very Rares.
And if you go to the c-store and buy a DO pack, aren't you doing so in hopes of winning something?
Actually, you are guaranteed to "win" a blue and one or two greens, which may happen or not in the ingames methods.
So it's a lottery with the odds somewhat stacked in your favor, compared to the ingame odds.
hmmmm where to begine a Lottery means you have chance NOT to win ANYTHING
With buying a pack you aways get x amount of rares, uncommons, and commons... Big big big difference....You tell me then
and here is a definition:
lot·ter·y/ˈlätərē/Noun
1. A means of raising money by selling numbered tickets and giving prizes to the holders of numbers drawn at random.
Paying 100 Cryptic/Atari/PW Tokens for random DOffs is staking your money (in the form of Tokens, think Las Vegas Poker Chips) against the uncertain (ie random) contingency that you'll get "dealt a good hand" and get good Uncommons, Rares, or Very Rares.
This is Gambling. Pure and Simple. :rolleyes:
In a broader sense, MMOs are gambling or skill based and rigidly skill based elements are boring. Either you can do something skill based and do it with ease or you can't. Imprecision adds complexity and the illusion of depth to a game and you pay $15 for a month worth of chances at something which is defined by randomization and imprecision.
The issue I have here is that this adds yet another mechanic to the C-Store. On one hand, I wish they'd never put costumes and large, account-wide persistent purchases there and focused on small, persistent, repeatable purchase. On the other hand, we have a mix of cosmetic, functional, and lottery items in the C-Store, which suggests they'll sell anything that makes money. Which is obviously true on some level but it doesn't build player confidence.
If they want to build a more lottery based C-Store system, then my goodness just do that and tie it in with a consistent in-game reward system, more like DCU Online where you can collect random pieces of things.
In that scenario, I'd suggest doing away with account-wide unlocks altogether. Adjust prices accordingly. Focus on small, repeatable purchases. And then introduce an account level daily one-armed bandit mechanism in-game similar to DCU's funhouse that has a 1 in 7 chance of awarding 100 Cryptic Points with rare chances at bigger prizes.
In the case of Johnny Jr. buying his cards, he is staking his $3 (or whatever a pack of cards costs) that he gets his Rookie Ace Player Card (or whatever other "chase card" he's hoping for). And what does he do when he doesn't get said card? He ante's up again and buys another pack. Repeat until addiction is satisfied. (Yes, I'm being extreme with the word "addiction", but the basic principal applies.)
Paying Cryptic/Atari/PW Tokens for random DOffs is staking your money (in the form of Tokens... think Las Vegas Poker Chips) against the uncertain (ie random) contingency that you'll get "dealt a good hand" and get good Uncommons, Rares, or Very Rares.
This is Gambling. Pure and Simple. :rolleyes:
The point where your analogy breaks down is that being "dealt a good hand" is where the transaction ends in this case. Getting the cards is the goal. There isn't another step wherein you win or lose with them. The DOff assignments don't require you to have an Andorian Engineer and a Tellarite Geophysicist that add up to 21 for you to complete them.
By your logic I'm gambling when I pay my cable bill. The cable company says, "We have TV shows." They don't promise me anything about the quality of the contents of these TV shows. Every month I give them my money for TV shows. Maybe the TV shows weren't very good. I give them money the next month in hope of better TV shows. Is this gambling?
Let's say you weren't a lifetime subscriber. You pay $15 a month for STO. You run STFs. You don't get the gear drop you want. You pay another $15 to play STO another month so that you can run more STFs. Is this gambling?
If paying for a batch of common DOffs is too gamebreaking... I mean these things scale up to purple, right?
Paying for common DOffs isn't a leg-up.
Maybe you are not quite getting what he is saying (I think some clarifications came later in the thread and this is now old news): NO, you're not just getting a few common items. You get 2 uncommon _or_ better, randomly decided. That's a source of uncommon, rares or very rares you otherwise wouldn't have.
The point where your analogy breaks down is that being "dealt a good hand" is where the transaction ends in this case. Getting the cards is the goal. There isn't another step wherein you win or lose with them... By your logic I'm gambling when I pay my cable bill... You pay $15 a month for STO... Is this gambling?
I don't get your point Frak.
I'm not arguing over what things in life may or may not be gambling. I do consider adding a Random DOff Pack to the C-Store to be a form of gambling.
I think there is a "win or lose" step when buying a Random DOff Pack off the C-Store. I would say most people, myself included, would consider getting a Rare or Very Rare DOff to be a "win" over getting a Common or even an Uncommon.
Further, my perception is that having such a "win" gives an advantage (however small) over those that either:
A) Don't purchase the Random DOff Packs (ie who choose not to pay to spin the wheel).
and/or Do pay to spin, but get a "losing" hand.
Yes, I know there are going to be in-game mechanisms for getting DOffs, and Heretic believes it will be the preferred method. But there will be people who "Pay-to-Win", which I think is another Bad Thing.
Comments
Fair point, but that's arguably a budget issue not a reflection on relative prominence. The game has addressed that already with liberal volume of Andorian BOFFs and Andorian captains. It seems a tad silly to have Andorians commonly available as BOFFs but listed as "uncommon" DOFFs. If it's a Founding Member species they should be the same rarity as Humans.
The argument to me isn't between c-store detractors vs. enthusiasts or pvp vs. pve, but between those who thought it fine to buy a hundred Magic the Gathering booster packs to get that one card they wanted and those who did not. I'm a game geek over 50 years old. So I've been around for all of the computer games history and of course was there for the entire history of the TCG too. But I did not play Magic or Pokemon or any other TCG. Because I don't like to gamble my money. I don't go to Vegas to play casinos for the same reason. If you want to sell me a doff, be my guest. Make it something you can get in game as well and it's fine. But asking me to repeatedly buy something with real money that will often result in me getting nothing of value is something different. This is enticing players with poor impulse control to spend money they can't afford to get something they may never get. This potentially can cost an individual player hundreds of dollars. You could buy every other single item in the c-store and spend less.
Of course someone will chime in and tell me I don't have to buy them. And I probably will not. But I do spend money in the c-store. I bought every ship and almost every costume. But every time I knew what I was buying. Some things weren't worth the price, so I didn't buy the Garumba until it was half price. That weekend I decided the value equalled the price. But these random packs have no actual value that rises much above zero, at least once a few weeks have passed. The exchange will be selling common doffs for almost nothing by that time.
This is a bad precedent, something you previously only saw in trading card games and ftp facebook type games. It's good for the company perhaps, but bad for players, and really bad for some players who have a gambling problem.
I don't know if this will be pay to win or not. The implementation will determine this. But it is a way to get a lot of money out of players for something of dubious to no value. And we do need to reiterate that this is a pay to play game with a monthly subscription.
You want my money for doffs? Sell me a Vulcan doff pack. I know something I value will be inside then. Asking me to spend real dollars on a pig-in-a-poke is not something I find compelling, and I find potentially bad for the players and for the game as a whole.
AMEN and qouted
You know...
I could deal with game altering content in the C-Store if they were consistent about it.
But the decision to make special race BOs a separate purchase and this make the C-Store look like a wild flailing for cash instead of an internally consistent business plan. I want to believe in the devs more than this kind of plan allows me to.
Holy TRIBBLE.. youd better make all those pokemon trade cards illigal for everyone under 21...
Then why not sell individual Duty Officers? This way, those who want to 'collect them all' can do so, without ending up with Duty Officer 'cards' that they don't want or need. The current mechanism as described ultimately depends on consumers paying for something they don't want.
This isn't giving the consumer a choice. It's giving the consumer a chance. A chance that's determined by the roll of a dice that only Cryptic can see, with no guarantee that the roll is fair.
The rarity of Magic: the Gathering cards was determined by the proof sheets at Carta Mundi back in the day, so the odds of receiving a particular card could be independently determined.
Most importantly. Even if the odds were published and independently verified - how can Cryptic guarantee these odds will be upheld with each purchase?
Bear in mind that the odds of receiving an 'Aid the Planet' mission were skewed dramatically a year ago - with no Dev acknowledgement for weeks. What's to prevent this from happening again - and how would Cryptic react if it does?
In addition, this may very well qualify as a Lottery according to Californian Gambling Legislation:
I'm not a lawyer, and fully admit that I've only taken a cursory glance, but I'm sure the linked legalese will help folk defend or attack the various points raised in this thread.
As some have noticed, there is an IP argument, which was where it started, but the reason it stayed alive was the systemic benefit of not rigidly yoking collectors' needs to min-maxers' needs, which means those respective economies are more independent of each other.
With the probably exception of Diplomacy, these will probably all be new accolades, so this should not generally be an issue. For Diplomacy, we are making sure that those who have already grinded Diplomacy are not penalized.
The precise numbers are fairly complex because it relies on a system of weighting rather than a ratio, but the broad ratios are pretty straightforward. Currently - and I am quite certain this will change after we see how it plays out on Tribble - it's more or less an exponential schedule of rarity with Rares being ten times as rare as Uncommons, and Very Rares being ten times as rare as Rares.
The standard C-Store pack is currently being envisioned as something like 5 Commons and 2 Uncommons or better - meaning, while a Rare or Very Rare is possible to get, it isn't something I would ever count on, since in this case, an Uncommon currently has a weighting of 100, a Rare of 10 and a Very Rare of 1. Moreover, we expect the standard pack to be pretty cheap. We are still working out the details, particularly beyond the standard pack, but the final cost will obviously remain in line with the rarity.
Given that you can get guaranteed Blues and Purples with a precisely known species and specialization through tiering up in the various commendation categories, I expect this in-game method to remain the practical avenue for most people.
The frequency varies on a lot of factors, but in the same way that a standard pack will have something like five Commons and two Uncommons or better, the assignments available in most sectors will mirror this model. For example, I enter into the Vulcan Sector and check my available assignments tab and it will show me eight or so Common assignments and two Uncommon or better assignments.
Because, however, I have a limited number of assignments I can have going simultaneously, and because different assignments will be available in different sectors, if I don't like the selection in one sector I can always check another sector's available assignments, or simply wait for the available assignments to refresh, something which currently is set to about every four hours, though it wouldn't surprise me to see that change during testing.
This, and many other possibilities are all still under consideration.
Thank you very much for taking the time to clarify this. Knowing the numbers helps players make an informed decision toward whether they will buy the packs or grind the system.
You mention 'Standard' packs. Does this mean more expensive 'Deluxe' packs will be available as well? If so, will Deluxe collation be more comparable with the in-game method?
I'm going to base this off of a wow subscription because for a variety of reasons it is the easiest. WoW was released in 2004 with a subscription rate of $15.00 USD. WoW has not upped its subscription rates in the intervening years. If you take into account the average rate of inflation in the United States, other countries are outside the scope of my thinking at the moment, then that subscription fee that was worth $15.00 USD in 2004 is now worth roughly $12.41 USD.
When considered across tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or in the case of WoW, millions of subscribers were talking about significant sums of resources.
Duty Officer System- I feel you Doffs and Boffs should be Purple and a few blue after the rank of RA, at Captain or lower it should be randomized but the higher your rank the more likey you should get the rarer doffs.
Thank you.
Does this mean that it will be basically impossible to get a very rare andorian boff for example through these packs? Since you basically go down one rarity level for getting that alien species.
I hope you read my post about the gambling aspect of this random pack business. Common doffs will be as worthless as common boffs very soon after the launch of the doff system. Paying real money for them will not sit well with many of us. I want to know when I spend my real money on something that I'm getting something of value for it.
Having clear advantage-giving mechanisms, especially random chance options, is an awful idea! :mad:
I hate the slippery slope aspect of this. We're getting so far down that slope it's not even funny. If I had to concede to the C-Store DOffs, at least make them a pre-known pack of X, Y, and Z cards. The "Vulcan Pack" or "Engineer's Pack" or whatever. But list exactly what is contained (Sort of like the Magic pre-made decks).
When you start putting a random element in there you are gambling. You are playing a lottery.
Shakkar makes an excellent point. I remember playing Magic back in the day. And while it was fun to get that awesome surprise "chase card" - it was all the more worse/disappointing when your "Guaranteed One Rare Card Per Pack" was your fifth copy of some power/creature that was so useless you couldn't sell, trade, or even give it away.
Well said, and so very, very true.
Perhaps, but wages in the US have been stagnant for 10 years, so while inflation has slowly gone up over that time, the wages have not and to raise the sub price would be asking for a larger percentage of disposable income, which is probably why the price across the board for MMO subs did not go up. I understand the need for companies to increase their income, so I don't complain about the c-store in general, but I do about this new implementation for it.
I believe some one mentioned this before and to add another variable to the mix. It is possible there may not be a lot separating the 3 but then that destroys the DOff system, or it could go the other way and make the Rares and Very Rares "godly" and then brings in the pay to win scenario. Ideally Cryptic should make all DOffs common with crafting or C-Store boosters that relatively cheap that help boost DOffs after mission completion.
No, it will always cap out at Very Rare. All species have Purple variants. (Some specializations, however, only come at the White quality level, but that's a separate issue.)
Effective value is not simply a matter of having the highest quality duty officers, but also the appropriate selection. For example, it does me little good to have four Purple quality Doctors if I have no interest in running Medical assignments and really want to run Colonial assignments, for which I need Quartermasters. Moreover, number matters as well - if I want to run multiple simultaneous Colonial assignments in an effort to maximize my advancement on the Colonial track, it isn't enough that I have one Blue or Purple Quartermaster, I might actually statistically be better off with three White quality Quartermasters.
As for the gambling aspect, I cannot comment on that, as that goes to business development and legal issues I am not qualified to address.
/ Agreed I interrupt it the same way not a big fan of the idea
*sigh*
I really appreciate the work you're putting into this system and hate that it gets intertwined with business model discussions.
One thing that is frustrating is that while we have content developers' ears, it's always felt like we had a weaker channel to marketing and an even weaker channel to the folks who make business decisions.
It's certainly POSSIBLE to reach the marcom people through these forums and via community teams but I feel like a lot of the business decisions are made by people less actively engaged with the community and 75% of the strife on the forums comes from people whose grievances are directed at those folks, not you or Stahl... or the frustration that results from the lack of the business folks' engagement with the community.
I know this isn't altogether unusual for a gaming company but it stands out in contrast to how the rest of Cryptic is run.
Is there a way we could get someone who does have a stronger say in the business aspects into a Q&A, interview, or town hall, either via Cryptic or one of the established podcasts?
I feel like Roper and Jack used to speak to some of those issues (I've always appreciated Jack's theorycrafting on the business aspects) but they're hardly around and we don't know where this stuff originates or what the theory behind it is, which tends to (unfortunately) paint them as "evil anonymous men in suits out to ruin our game." We get a lot of creatives saying, "It's not my call." But we never hear from the people whose call it is.
You have a point about specialization and desired assignments, but if I had 4 purple quality doctors that means I can trade them for something probably better than common of the desired other doffs. It will probably always be better to have 4 purples in hand than 4 commons, since we can trade the purples for what we want.
I wasn't aware that some assignment possibilities would not have uncommon or better doffs to do them. That might make those commons of some value. But look at the boff system. You can buy common boffs for very little money on the exchange. People will want to throw away their least valuable common doffs on the exchange and any random packs people buy will also contain some they don't want. The exchange will be swamped with a large and cheap selection of common doffs which will become more so over time. So buying random packs that will largely contain these commons will not be worth real money over that time. This leads some to buy ever more of them looking for that .1% that will be very rare.
You cannot of course comment on legal issues of gambling, since your legal dept. would have something bad to say about that. But I think you know that whatever the legalities are, selling these random packs IS gambling. It is unlike every other thing the c-store has done before. I urge you as a designer to push for selling objects of defined value. You can design doffs, put ones you design for sale on the store, at least as a choice to buying the random packs. Sell us a Neelix as a cook, for example. I may or may not want one, but at least I have a choice to buy something I can see.
You know, it's funny... But There are definitely times I wish I could toss them $5 if it would encourage C-Store development resources to be reassigned to the game instead of more C-Store assets.
Succinctly put, and wholeheartedly agreed.
Heretic's presence in this thread has turned what could have been another vicious meltdown into something resembling a reasonable discussion between adults.
Your contention is that when a kid buys baseball cards, he's gambling?
I find it absolutely fascinating the views people have on things.
Dude...I think your thread got low jacked!
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gambling Definitions 1b and 2 fit the practice of baseball card packs perfectly.
In the case of Johnny Jr. buying his cards, he is staking his $3 (or whatever a pack of cards costs) that he gets his Rookie Ace Player Card (or whatever other "chase card" he's hoping for). And what does he do when he doesn't get said card? He ante's up again and buys another pack. Repeat until addiction is satisfied. (Yes, I'm being extreme with the word "addiction", but the basic principal applies.)
Paying Cryptic/Atari/PW Tokens for random DOffs is staking your money (in the form of Tokens... think Las Vegas Poker Chips) against the uncertain (ie random) contingency that you'll get "dealt a good hand" and get good Uncommons, Rares, or Very Rares.
This is Gambling. Pure and Simple. :rolleyes:
hmmmm where to begine a Lottery means you have chance NOT to win ANYTHING
With buying a pack you aways get x amount of rares, uncommons, and commons... Big big big difference....You tell me then
and here is a definition:
lot·ter·y/ˈlätərē/Noun
1. A means of raising money by selling numbered tickets and giving prizes to the holders of numbers drawn at random.
In a broader sense, MMOs are gambling or skill based and rigidly skill based elements are boring. Either you can do something skill based and do it with ease or you can't. Imprecision adds complexity and the illusion of depth to a game and you pay $15 for a month worth of chances at something which is defined by randomization and imprecision.
The issue I have here is that this adds yet another mechanic to the C-Store. On one hand, I wish they'd never put costumes and large, account-wide persistent purchases there and focused on small, persistent, repeatable purchase. On the other hand, we have a mix of cosmetic, functional, and lottery items in the C-Store, which suggests they'll sell anything that makes money. Which is obviously true on some level but it doesn't build player confidence.
If they want to build a more lottery based C-Store system, then my goodness just do that and tie it in with a consistent in-game reward system, more like DCU Online where you can collect random pieces of things.
In that scenario, I'd suggest doing away with account-wide unlocks altogether. Adjust prices accordingly. Focus on small, repeatable purchases. And then introduce an account level daily one-armed bandit mechanism in-game similar to DCU's funhouse that has a 1 in 7 chance of awarding 100 Cryptic Points with rare chances at bigger prizes.
The point where your analogy breaks down is that being "dealt a good hand" is where the transaction ends in this case. Getting the cards is the goal. There isn't another step wherein you win or lose with them. The DOff assignments don't require you to have an Andorian Engineer and a Tellarite Geophysicist that add up to 21 for you to complete them.
By your logic I'm gambling when I pay my cable bill. The cable company says, "We have TV shows." They don't promise me anything about the quality of the contents of these TV shows. Every month I give them my money for TV shows. Maybe the TV shows weren't very good. I give them money the next month in hope of better TV shows. Is this gambling?
Let's say you weren't a lifetime subscriber. You pay $15 a month for STO. You run STFs. You don't get the gear drop you want. You pay another $15 to play STO another month so that you can run more STFs. Is this gambling?
Maybe you are not quite getting what he is saying (I think some clarifications came later in the thread and this is now old news): NO, you're not just getting a few common items. You get 2 uncommon _or_ better, randomly decided. That's a source of uncommon, rares or very rares you otherwise wouldn't have.
I'm not arguing over what things in life may or may not be gambling. I do consider adding a Random DOff Pack to the C-Store to be a form of gambling.
I think there is a "win or lose" step when buying a Random DOff Pack off the C-Store. I would say most people, myself included, would consider getting a Rare or Very Rare DOff to be a "win" over getting a Common or even an Uncommon.
Further, my perception is that having such a "win" gives an advantage (however small) over those that either:
and/or
Yes, I know there are going to be in-game mechanisms for getting DOffs, and Heretic believes it will be the preferred method. But there will be people who "Pay-to-Win", which I think is another Bad Thing.