Sins Were Op But Then.....so 6 Months Later.......

You mean skill spam archers is old news on servers where they give archers 80% -chan...

How is thissupposed to be better? You think demons just derp autos without knowing about instant TA spam or something? I TA spam before QS, if QS doesn't proc I TA spam again when it's ready, big difference.

Like I said, if it has to come to it next expansion, I may start skill spamming (as a demon) most of the time...but get this.

If you TA spam you can't use macros, if you use macros, what macros are you going to be using? the PvE macros where we slap a slow skill at the end to wait for cooldowns to finish??

The only thing with 3s cd is TA and QS, so now you are doing, QS, something, something else, QS, something else, something other than the previous 3; if you were derp enough to get the Primal skills where you combined 4 skills into 2, 1 of which costs 2 sparks, you are ****ed.

So you do a bunch of clicking with or without auto attacks in between plus TA spam just to get similar results or a little better as before, that is supposed to be "just as good?" All this just so your DPS gets ***** by Primal Cyclone right?

Archer is most dependent on physical attacks, and the bloody cooldowns is one reason. Slower skills don't deal much more damage is another reason.

Like I said, PW needs to figure out if they want archer as debuffer support or damage. If they can't deal more damage, all I would want is less cooldowns so I can cast debuffs quicker. They should give us 0 CD on DoT attacks so I can spam poison ticks.

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Thus, sage archers have another 5.2% dps advantage, making it almost as if you're doing 0.80 attacks per second. (rounded down to nearest valid aps)

So even as is, skill spamming as a sage archer does nearly the same dps as auto attacking as a demon archer. Sure, with Demon quickshot, a demon archer's DPS still blow's sage archer's skill spam out of the water, but here is something to consider: a demon archer's quickshot speed boost only procs half the time, whereas Sage Archer's quickshot crit boost is guaranteed.

My base crit as a fully grown demon is 86% so I'd be at 96% crit after stun vs a sage's 100% crit after quickshot. Demon archers that do nothing but shoot 0.8 arrows per second are unable to kill anything remotely equal gear so I don't think that is a good standard to aspire to.

Also your calculation is making the assumption a crit = 2x the damage of a normal attack. The unpurgeable inkdragon pill lowers this rate to 1.8x and the new squad buff in the expansion will lower it further to 1.35x. Archers don't have any way to raise their rage damage either.

A bigger reason why skill spam doesn't work out is that almost all archer skills are incapable of triggering weapon effects. A skill spamming archer might as well be using a G16 bow since they aren't using the weapon proc addon or the -.1 addon. Imagine if GoF were only able to used with normal attacks?

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

One compelling reason to use a macro as a "skill spam" archer would be to chain generic physical attack skills seamlessly despite lag if you are trying not to fall behind auto attack DPS.

Some BMs stick attack macros between stun locks so they deal a number of attacks that would fit into stun lock duration.

Also, macros used with ZTP are perfectly legit. Don't spout **** **** if you have no idea what you're talking about.

^this

when i was playing archer, i had a pretty nice set of macros

ztp metal macro

ztp bv sta ai and some other skills i forgot macro

inb4 -channelling archers viable b:laugh

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The day archer's crit damage gets nerfed is the day the class gets screwed over completely, sage or demon, skill spam or auto attack. Then that is just a problem with the class altogether, regardless of any aps nerfs.

So December 16th then?

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

and the new squad buff in the expansion will lower it further to 1.35x. normal attacks?

LOLWAT that buff sounds broken as fking hell xD, archers wont be able to kill a fly lolz

Joe - Morai wrote: »

Guys...it's a buff..a simple buff. People can be purged and if you hit long enough onto them they will get purged. No problem at all on that account ijs.

^ This. But this post was originally about sins... How did it turn into an Archerthread though?

Joe - Morai wrote: »

They are everywhere!!! Then they go and wonder why they get nerfed xDDD

#toomanyarchershere

Well, we Stormbringers shall weed out the Archer population... One pair of wings at a time... b:sin

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74m019s_YLA

You think this kind of **** happens on PWI? Asterelle 3 sparks, over 70k pattack, hits fully buffed endgame BM for 1.8k with metal.

The last time I "cast spammed" a full endgame BM to death was when I purged and popped ZTP, with BV and EP the BM took ~10k a crit from metal attacks and died; that was before Primal buffs.

You're hitting that veno for 10ks, that's like an unarmored veno. What the hell is this video supposed to prove anyway? That everyone should reroll to Sage or something because of the next expansion?

Here's a vid from PWI:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mQj9xaJcaA

Not at all like what happens in your vid. That wasn't the greatest but you can see more realistic damage taken and received.

Where in my video do you see me fight fully buffed bms in 1v1? Obviously if you're fighting someone who is buffed, you shouldn't expect the damage to be high. The BM was probably in magic marrow. Did the bm have defense charm on for that hit? Was the bm metal debuffed before the hit happens? Alot of factors affect an archer's damage. That's why they DO have purge.

You claim that you are hitting an end game bm, but you neglect to mention whether you are full end game yourself. I don't play your server. So unless you are just as end game as the BM was, 10k can be a perfectly reasonable damage.

So after watching the video, you only managed to point out that I hit a veno for 10k (he was using a mdef neck after I gear checked him, lol). I am not claiming to prove anything with the video. Because if archers crit damage DO get nerfed to 1.35x, then that is a deeper problem that neither cultivation nor playstyle can solve. However, I don't have to deal with that, so I can't really comment regarding the crit nerf. I do think though, that Sage skill spam can achieve more than demons in this era (sorry devoted, but new skills and new gears changed the meta game quite drastically). So if this video convinces you to switch to sage, then so much the better. If not, that is completely your decision.

In my video, the gear is retail, the version is Dawn of Spring (the one where venos and barbs get their new form), and the only non-retail item was a crossbow with higher max atk and lower min atk than the bow, and exact same stat as the bow except the -0.1 attacks per second was replaced by -10% channeling. (check the pwcalc for exact stats) You can judge for yourself.

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yes, I realize that the conditions are even worse on retail. Which is why the purpose of my post was to illustrate that a sage skill spamming archer is just as good. I have never argued that it is considerably better, due to the lack of options archers have on retail servers.

Now onto your video:

You're obviously not going to kill a seeker with auto attacks. So those hits aren't a really good judge of damage. Instead, lets take a look at the magic attacks that he did.

2:21 - 4.8k crit no metal debuff
3:00 - 7.2k crit with metal debuff
3:03 - 8.2k if it crit, with metal debuff
3:50 - 5.3k crit no metal debuff

I didn't check out the entire video, but it seems like the archer average about 5k without metal debuff, and 7.7k with metal debuff.

Now lets look at my fights vs seekers in my video:

2:20
Thunder Shock did 4.9 without metal debuff - within your video's range.
Thunderous Blast did 3k (6k cause def charm) with metal debuff - lower than your video's.

2:31
Thunder Shock did 4.9k without metal debuff - same as your video's
Thunderous Blast did 5k with metal debuff - lower than your video's.
Lighting Strike did 1.5k (6k cause def charm and no crit) - lower than your video's

7:15
Thunder Shock did 4.4k without metal debuff - same as your video's

7:31
Thunderous Blast did 5k without metal debuff - same as your video's

7:43
Thunderous Blast did 3.8k (4.4k cause windshield) without metal debuff - same as your video's

So what does this tell us? If we compare the damage, we can see that my average damage is nearly the same as the archer you depicted in your video. Which means the archer in your video should have been able to perform similarly to what I did, if he was also Sage. He would lack only 10% channeling.

So why do I seem to do more damage?
Because I was taking advantage of situations whereas the archer in your video was not.

@2:41, I resisted the seeker's sacrificial slash, allowing me to achieve 19k.
@7:51, I took advantage of the purge by stunning and comboing as soon as it happened.

Also, I should note that I was using Raging Sun Orb. It does boost my damage by a noticeable amount.

So of course, it is not at all like what happens in my video, because the archer in your video wasn't playing the class to it's full potential. (And neither was I, which is the scary part.)

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Where in my video do you see me fight fully buffed bms in 1v1? Obviously if you're fighting someone who is buffed, you shouldn't expect the damage to be high. The BM was probably in magic marrow. Did the bm have defense charm on for that hit? Was the bm metal debuffed before the hit happens? Alot of factors affect an archer's damage. That's why they DO have purge.

Asterelle actually crit 1.8k, so I assumed it would have been 1.8k regular hit if there was no def charm. It illustrates your private server damage was not realistic in this PWI setting. The only difference between a fully buffed BM and a self buffed BM is a single mdef buff, you're saying an archer can go from 3sparked 3.6k crit to unsparked 8k crit from just 60% mdef buff? So then consider what happens now when everyone has 80% buff from Primal? Why don't you ask Joe there if he gets hit for 16k by archers?

You claim that you are hitting an end game bm, but you neglect to mention whether you are full end game yourself. I don't play your server. So unless you are just as end game as the BM was, 10k can be a perfectly reasonable damage.

Perfectly reasonable with BV and EP, critting 10k against a jade BM who just lost his buffs. The point was with Primal buffs that's impossible as after Purge, you still have to deal with 80% gear buff. Mdef debuff is not going to cut into defense as it did before, buffed, purged, or otherwise.

So after watching the video, you only managed to point out that I hit a veno for 10k (he was using a mdef neck after I gear checked him, lol). I am not claiming to prove anything with the video. Because if archers crit damage DO get nerfed to 1.35x, then that is a deeper problem that neither cultivation nor playstyle can solve. However, I don't have to deal with that, so I can't really comment regarding the crit nerf. I do think though, that Sage skill spam can achieve more than demons in this era (sorry devoted, but new skills and new gears changed the meta game quite drastically). So if this video convinces you to switch to sage, then so much the better. If not, that is completely your decision.

In my video, the gear is retail, the version is Dawn of Spring (the one where venos and barbs get their new form), and the only non-retail item was a crossbow with higher max atk and lower min atk than the bow, and exact same stat as the bow except the -0.1 attacks per second was replaced by -10% channeling. (check the pwcalc for exact stats) You can judge for yourself.

Look I even admit I might be skill spamming if it fits the situation next expansion, but consider if you're actually doing better than a wizard cycling pyro gush, or better yet, Primal cleric. That is what archer nukes basically are, base damage with a little extra add tacked on.

That's the retardedly sad part, you shouldn't be comparing it to demon archers auto attacking blindly away because the 20% skill damage bonus plus the attack damage nerf should make it obvious, compare the performance to other casters with 30%-50% -chan. Next expansion isn't going to be the era of "Sage skill spam is better," it will be the era of "archer sucks period." In TW, where everyone is fully buffed, you're pretty much playing debuffer and support, then you pea shoot for **** damage while those skills are on cooldown. The way I see it, i don't care if Demon or Sage, i'd rather be cleric or veno next expansion.

Again, it's not like I've wanted ridiculous damage buffs or zerks or anything ****, all I have asked for is lower cooldowns.

devapathpain1229 wrote: »

Venos are the true threat b:sin it will be so much fun grudge striking all these archers tehehehehe. Venos have had more range than archers since the dawn of time (pets) no class out ranged veno. Stormbringer clone? I laugh at that it's like mystic craggy with a way longer cd lolol. Stormbringer can only Block 1 purge lolll better than tidal lolol. Stormbringer doesn't seem op at all. It's about time archers needed to use skills. How do people find it fun to click someone and do nothing sfterwords? Yep about time.

Yea better believe I was scatter brained during this comment

i disagree, archers are supposed to have ranged physical damage DPS, with a bit of magic damage burst at the cost of apothecary, now they have nothing :-)

ah yea 20% chance to purge

imo the new archer will be demon, josd, chann cape e celestial sword spam to be a purge support

being a purge support completely defies the true nature of archers, that should cover the DD role

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74m019s_YLA

You think this kind of **** happens on PWI? Asterelle 3 sparks, over 70k pattack, hits fully buffed endgame BM for 1.8k with metal.

The last time I "cast spammed" a full endgame BM to death was when I purged and popped ZTP, with BV and EP the BM took ~10k a crit from metal attacks and died; that was before Primal buffs.

You're hitting that veno for 10ks, that's like an unarmored veno. What the hell is this video supposed to prove anyway? That everyone should reroll to Sage or something because of the next expansion?

Here's a vid from PWI:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mQj9xaJcaA

Not at all like what happens in your vid. That wasn't the greatest but you can see more realistic damage taken and received.

Just some things I want to point out in the video from PWI. It was taken about a week or two after the primal expansion, and if I remember correctly, the seeker had spent a lot of his bloods on his skills so his passive def skills were around level 1-2 and mine (the archer) were around 3-4 back then. So its not the best comparison to what goes on currently, since I do significantly less damage to the seeker now, with level 10 passives.

tsyfall wrote: »

You need to be more realistic. Quilue and Asterelle are right. Demon EA is far superior to Sage EA, even now, because skillspamming is just too high of a skill-requirement. Let's face it: You can't really expect the general PvPer to fill that req, when even the forum EAs still think macros are part of a DPH playstyle - even when DPH sin exists...

PS: Manual can be faster than macro due to aftercast phenomenon.

I never said Demons are superior to Sage, (not after Sage sucked so bad PW gave them 5s ranged stun,) and that's not even what this is about.

So take your 400 ms ping and try to click through a ZTP combo during TW is better than a macro when archer cast times are all around half a second? Also, I've never experienced this "aftercast phenomenon," if that was the case, my combo wouldn't fit in the 0chan window.

Also, the idea of using a macro to fill in generic attack skills in place of auto attack is so you don't have a half a second lag trying to click the next skill and thus lose DPS to auto attack (lol). Skill spam for archer is not a DPH playstyle, that's stupid, archer skills don't zerk and don't deal much higher than auto attack.

So when you are trying to kill fully buffed opponents in TW or NW, out of range of genie debuffs, let me know how much each of your individual precious hits matter.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Id have to disagree with you. My pdef is much lower than my Mdef, and end game archers do way more to me with skills than autos. And i fight a lot of freakin archers.

Of course, 20% skill damage increase is significant from passive. As autoing is still superior way to play the class one can maybe understand why the frack archers suck so much currently. Our skills arent really worth using so we get pretty little compared to other classes that got 20% dps/dph increase to deal with the def passive. I would still argue against of phrasing "way more".

On archo most EA vs EA matches end very similarly, one procs purge and other kites and if they dont land purge back quick enough its over. Even if skillspam was viable, it has 2 major elements which make it unappealing. First one should be obvious to those who dont play on retail but on servers where def charms are free, more hits and less DPH suffers less DPS loss from them. Second is all the **** addons to remove chance to proc purge, which is basically the only way to kill anything on your gear tier as an Archer.

Really, why would I skillspam when I get better results with less attention spent to my skillbars, which is its own obvious perk as ranged "DD"?

Just wanna point out how laughable it is that someone attempted to use a private server video as proof of how it works on PWI. Private servers are nothing like end game pvp here. It is a entirely different dynamic based upon the gear, skills, etc. that are available to players.

Nudimmud - Lost City wrote: »

Just wanna point out how laughable it is that someone attempted to use a private server video as proof of how it works on PWI. Private servers are nothing like end game pvp here. It is a entirely different dynamic based upon the gear, skills, etc. that are available to players.

If you checked the PWcalc you would have realized that the gear set in my video was nearly a carbon copy of end game retail gears during the Dawn of Spring expansion. Which means you can apply the same concept to here should you have an end game character during the same era.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

Even if skillspam was viable, it has 2 major elements which make it unappealing. First one should be obvious to those who dont play on retail but on servers where def charms are free, more hits and less DPH suffers less DPS loss from them. Second is all the **** addons to remove chance to proc purge, which is basically the only way to kill anything on your gear tier as an Archer.

Really, why would I skillspam when I get better results with less attention spent to my skillbars, which is its own obvious perk as ranged "DD"?

Because 1v1 is self buff only, and you can't use def charms when stunned.