Sins Were Op But Then.....so 6 Months Later.......

Naberis - Dreamweaver

bloodedone87 wrote: »

Stormbringer

an AA class with a sickle (class restricted).
- most skills can be channeled while moving
- can create self duplicate (pet) Video
- Ranged AOE Reel In skill
- a passive to reduce melee damage taken.
- a self buff that avoids 1 purge
- squad buff lowers damage taken from normal attacks by 20% (lvl 10).
- There are a lot of skills that produce these swirling Ice/Thunder balls around you and other skills that use them. You can have (max?) 3 balls around you and they can be 2 of one kind and 1 of the other.

Is that enough for you? Or are not OP by their skills cause they dont get tidal?

Now just by reading this post about the stormbringers, says reduces normal damage taken by 20%, my guess that will be like auto atking and not skill damage. However their ability to kite would be a prob with any class, maybe cept for barbs or bms with the new stun but otherwise they'll be hit the same by any sin and or otherwise any class, their only real strength relies on remaining mobile when can be gotten around. Now if im wrong plz do quote an correct me ive not read much bout the new expansion just my thoughts by reading what ive read here b:surrender

Kevyy - Harshlands

Clerics can counter sins ijs. Both have amazing survivability, cc's, mobility and damage. They both do the same ****ing combos over and over until their opponents are dead.

XXHotXx - Morai

-a wizard can use the purify like that, a psychic can use the purify like that

both of those classes can negate physical damage with self buffs,

how do you get benefits from purify if the sin 1-2shots you?

-i am not saying that PWCH common gears are S+ sets and r9r3, i am saying that that's PWCH very endgame and that's were devs calibrated the pvp balance upon

PWCH very endgame is way waaaaaaay different from ours

-talking about CCs against an assassin is pointless

-also consider that PWI PvP common scenario is NW or TW, therefore mass pvp, sin can simply have a paralyzer in his team and AA him, or even just pick a target being paralyzed by someone else

-but still that's not even necessary, tackling slash is good enough to lock a stormbringer down, elimination 1shot to follow

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Kevyy - Harshlands wrote: »

Clerics can counter sins ijs. Both have amazing survivability, cc's, mobility and damage. They both do the same ****ing combos over and over until their opponents are dead.

I disagree, clerics are one trick ponies. Sins have multiple ways to skin a cat, especially with zerk.

bloodedone87

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

-a wizard can use the purify like that, a psychic can use the purify like that

both of those classes can negate physical damage with self buffs,

how do you get benefits from purify if the sin 1-2shots you?

-i am not saying that PWCH common gears are S+ sets and r9r3, i am saying that that's PWCH very endgame and that's were devs calibrated the pvp balance upon

PWCH very endgame is way waaaaaaay different from ours

-talking about CCs against an assassin is pointless

-also consider that PWI PvP common scenario is NW or TW, therefore mass pvp, sin can simply have a paralyzer in his team and AA him, or even just pick a target being paralyzed by someone else

-but still that's not even necessary, tackling slash is good enough to lock a stormbringer down, elimination 1shot to follow

Sadly will take time till ppl willl bring stormbringers to end game gear to prove you that this new class will give sins headaches.
No one said that all stormbringers there will kill every sin. Some end game stormbringers will kill end game sins. Some end game stormbringers will die by the hamd of end game sins. It depends by the person who is playing the toon. I will repeat myself and say that sins that will kill stormbringers will struggle alot till they will be able to do that .

Ibunneh - Raging Tide

bloodedone87 wrote: »

Sadly will take time till ppl willl bring stormbringers to end game gear to prove you that this new class will give sins headaches.
No one said that all stormbringers there will kill every sin. Some end game stormbringers will kill end game sins. Some end game stormbringers will die by the hamd of end game sins. It depends by the person who is playing the toon. I will repeat myself and say that sins that will kill stormbringers will struggle alot till they will be able to do that .

Thank you, omfg NO class, and I mean NO class is completely invincible. And as for Stormbringers, let's not forget, they have clones, is there a way to discern the clone from the real stormbringer, what if they start comboing on the wrong one, LOL I can see alot of QQ because of that. THat's extremely annoying

Quilue - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

What's your source on this information? I doubt China has S+ cards. They aren't in any pack, aren't from any quest, and aren't in the boutique. China has very few people at real endgame and their top TW guilds are mostly populated by R8r and G15 Nirv + Warsoul. Also no Jones blessing. Their cards are the same as here.



Our R9rr set is more damage as a whole due to the +100 stat bonus but china gets the better R9rr weapons. The dagger is more impressive than the bow relative to our version since it gains a -.1 interval http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/36354

No it's not. 100 dex is about 70% weapon damage added at best. This can have about 40 more attack levels.

Then again you may be right if they don't have Jones...

bloodedone87

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

-a wizard can use the purify like that, a psychic can use the purify like that

Clearly you dont play a psychic. If you have played one you would have known that the only skill that purify for psychic is Sage bubble of life. So only sage psychic can purify. Demon dont have this ability.

Eoria - Harshlands

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

No it's not. 100 dex is about 70% weapon damage added at best. This can have about 40 more attack levels.

Then again you may be right if they don't have Jones...

They don't have Jones and that add-on doesn't actually appear on the wep. It's just there in the database. See also: the nw recasted Warsoul weps.

Joe - Morai

._. anyone is ignoring those ~46% reduce in melee skill dmg through buffs and the passive skill. there are another ~87% reduce of melee autoattack dmg for the fairies which is another combo of the passive skill and the buff skill that any Stormbringer will have on, all the friggin time.

The way I think it'll work can be easily explained by one of hots formulas (I don't remember the exact numbers and too lazy to look them up). So lets say I deity sin would deal 500k basic dmg (w zc, sage subsea, 230 att lvls) then I think those buffs will cut it to ~260k and then apply the other dmg reduction through pdef. If so then it is like the sins will lose a permanent zerk. Add to that the buffs from inkdragons blood and the new Duskblades buff that will kinda negate crits as well...you only end up having ~120k base dmg (cause wolf emblem won't trigger). Then go ahead and reduce that by ~90%. GL killing a ~27k HP moonfairy with that puny dmg.

I need to add...that this was an overestimation to begin with (on the sin dmg) and does only apply to Elemination. Any other skill would just tickle. Especially if it cannot zc.

PS: Stop ignoring the lag issue I explained...that will be a huge impact too.

XXHotXx - Morai

Joe - Morai wrote: »

._. anyone is ignoring those ~46% reduce in melee skill dmg through buffs and the passive skill. there are another ~87% reduce of melee autoattack dmg for the fairies which is another combo of the passive skill and the buff skill that any Stormbringer will have on, all the friggin time.

The way I think it'll work can be easily explained by one of hots formulas (I don't remember the exact numbers and too lazy to look them up). So lets say I deity sin would deal 500k basic dmg (w zc, sage subsea, 230 att lvls) then I think those buffs will cut it to ~260k and then apply the other dmg reduction through pdef. If so then it is like the sins will lose a permanent zerk. Add to that the buffs from inkdragons blood and the new Duskblades buff that will kinda negate crits as well...you only end up having ~120k base dmg (cause wolf emblem won't trigger). Then go ahead and reduce that by ~90%. GL killing a ~27k HP moonfairy with that puny dmg.

I need to add...that this was an overestimation to begin with (on the sin dmg) and does only apply to Elemination. Any other skill would just tickle. Especially if it cannot zc.

PS: Stop ignoring the lag issue I explained...that will be a huge impact too.

27k hp AA class? whats that full vit build on 3x105s + vit shards?

that buff can be purged, also endgame sins are able to onehit ppl with 35k+ p def,

moon fairies deftly wont have 35k pdef, most likely they will have around 20k value

lag issue? i should upload a vid of my last nws, i ragequitted cause the server is unfvckingplayable

bloodedone87

Ibunneh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Thank you, omfg NO class, and I mean NO class is completely invincible. And as for Stormbringers, let's not forget, they have clones, is there a way to discern the clone from the real stormbringer, what if they start comboing on the wrong one, LOL I can see alot of QQ because of that. THat's extremely annoying

Also let's not forget that stormbringer has a knock-back aoe that works in pvp.b:victory

Joe - Morai

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

27k hp AA class? whats that full vit build on 3x105s + vit shards?

that buff can be purged, also endgame sins are able to onehit ppl with 35k+ p def,

moon fairies deftly wont have 35k pdef, most likely they will have around 20k value

lag issue? i should upload a vid of my last nws, i ragequitted cause the server is unfvckingplayable

xDD I thought we were talking buffed and heck Hotty don't forget the -46% melee dmg...you never mention that number...kinda like totally ignoring that all phys skill dmg will be cut by nearly half on the fairy. that is the most important number here xD

XXHotXx - Morai

Joe - Morai wrote: »

xDD I thought we were talking buffed and heck Hotty don't forget the -46% melee dmg...you never mention that number...kinda like totally ignoring that all phys skill dmg will be cut by nearly half on the fairy. that is the most important number here xD

the -46% is the squad buff right? it doesnt ignore all the damage and if it has the damage reduction icon, any sage spark or wind shield or blue bubble will cancel it out

its all about icons we ll have to see

also that buff is purgeable giving still the edge to the buffed sin

my wiz has 24k hp on full buffs to go @ 27k you need vit build and reborned S sets

Joe - Morai

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

the -46% is the squad buff right? it doesnt ignore all the damage and if it has the damage reduction icon, any sage spark or wind shield or blue bubble will cancel it out

its all about icons we ll have to see

also that buff is purgeable giving still the edge to the buffed sin

my wiz has 24k hp on full buffs to go @ 27k you need vit build and reborned S sets

Ya ok those 27k have been a bit too much, granted xD

And nope. That a whole new icon (the blue one you can see on those vids). The thing is...the buff itself does only add (forgot the exact numbers) 26% to those 26%...the other 20% do come from the passive and are unpurgeable. And with an anti-purge skill...ya especially as a sin it will be pretty hard to purge a fairy alone since 22m bow range are a bit short compared to 27m/42m for the fairies xD

The question I'm pretty curious about is if the buff and passive do seemlesly stack or if they are calced seperatly. I think they stack but we'll see. If they do then yeah. An extra 46% dmg reduce that is stackable with bb/turtle powder and all other buffs. This would turn the stormies into the class that is by far the most resilant against melee attacks.

XXHotXx - Morai

Joe - Morai wrote: »

Ya ok those 27k have been a bit too much, granted xD

And nope. That a whole new icon (the blue one you can see on those vids). The thing is...the buff itself does only add (forgot the exact numbers) 26% to those 26%...the other 20% do come from the passive and are unpurgeable. And with an anti-purge skill...ya especially as a sin it will be pretty hard to purge a fairy alone since 22m bow range are a bit short compared to 27m/42m for the fairies xD

The question I'm pretty curious about is if the buff and passive do seemlesly stack or if they are calced seperatly. I think they stack but we'll see. If they do then yeah. An extra 46% dmg reduce that is stackable with bb/turtle powder and all other buffs. This would turn the stormies into the class that is by far the most resilant against melee attacks.

you mean crit (rage) damage reduction buff? hmm you need a duskblade in your team to rebuff it doe and really none will roll a duskblade main xD

i need to dig up the skill list cause 46% seems a bit too much

Zoldi - Morai

Actually I think an AA can get 27k HP or really really close without reborned S cards nor vit/citrine shards.
I will have to do a simulation but with :
-R9.3 +12
-G16+12 robe/hat (with HP bonus) or with robe/hat that would give more HP
- sage barb buff
- NW potion (level 105 one)
- S card 80/80 at longevity/durability slots
- some HP/vit engrave here and there (or with purple stats on avatar cards)

XXHotXx - Morai

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

you mean crit (rage) damage reduction buff? hmm you need a duskblade in your team to rebuff it doe and really none will roll a duskblade main xD

i need to dig up the skill list cause 46% seems a bit too much

indeed that buff is 26% ._. not 46% .________________.

Joe - Morai

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

indeed that buff is 26% ._. not 46% .________________.

Ya but you need to add the passive skill into it as well xD then (if it stacks) we would be at 46%.

The buff:

- Shell of Frost

Type

---

Squad buff
Range

---

16m
Chan

---

1.5s
Cast

---

1.3s
CD

---

3s
Chi gain

---

20
Move

---

no

All squad members within 16 meters will receive a buff that reduces damage of melee attacks by 22%, lasting 30 minutes.

[+1 ice ball]

●Demon: Increases your defense level by 15, for 15 seconds.
○Sage: Has a 25% chance to gain 1 spark.


And the passive:

- Hazedragon Bloodline

Reduce melee autoattack damage by 65%, melee skills damage by 25%.

●Demon: Increases critical chance by 1%.
○Sage: Reduces melee autoattack damage by 68%, melee skills damage by 26%.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Joe - Morai wrote: »

Ya but you need to add the passive skill into it as well xD then (if it stacks) we would be at 46%.

The buff:

- Shell of Frost

Type

---

Squad buff
Range

---

16m
Chan

---

1.5s
Cast

---

1.3s
CD

---

3s
Chi gain

---

20
Move

---

no

All squad members within 16 meters will receive a buff that reduces damage of melee attacks by 22%, lasting 30 minutes.

[+1 ice ball]

●Demon: Increases your defense level by 15, for 15 seconds.
○Sage: Has a 25% chance to gain 1 spark.


And the passive:

- Hazedragon Bloodline

Reduce melee autoattack damage by 65%, melee skills damage by 25%.

●Demon: Increases critical chance by 1%.
○Sage: Reduces melee autoattack damage by 68%, melee skills damage by 26%.

Assuming this includes damage from archers and the word melee is a misnomer?

Joe - Morai

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Assuming this includes damage from archers and the word melee is a misnomer?

Melee and melee skill dmg is combined to ya physical skills and the autoattack reduction (yes especially Archer autoattacking) is the other part...with 87%...so we can safely assume that archers and apser can forget that on stormies.

Zoldi - Morai

Joe - Morai wrote: »

so we can safely assume that archers and apser can forget that on stormies.

You're right but... it was already the case against any class anyway, wasn't it ? APS guys have been a non factor in PVP for some time already and archers use auto-attack only for the purge to process, not to deal real damage.

XXHotXx - Morai

22% less damage from melee skills doesnt stack with 25% less damage from melee auto attacks

its a complete different thing and melèè autoattacks in pvp are really obsolete already none using them

Quilue - Sanctuary

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

You're right but... it was already the case against any class anyway, wasn't it ? APS guys have been a non factor in PVP for some time already and archers use auto-attack only for the purge to process, not to deal real damage.

WTF...what else is there? Skill spam? Channel 1.6s+ for "base damage plus 4k" that's a great idea right? Take Aim spam is not a skill to "deal real damage," nothing much else I can think of.

Most skills aside from Barrage are for effect not damage as they don't hit much more than auto attack and takes longer to channel. Archer is the one class most dependent on auto attack. That's why expansion shafts archers the most.

Although with enough shafting to auto attack damage archers may have to resort to **** skill spamming. Get ready to take some Knockback Arrows and Kiss of Snakes. In fact, for those of you that got Kiss of Snakes you just ****ed yourselves of another skill spam option LOL.

opkossy

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

WTF...what else is there? Skill spam? Channel 1.6s+ for "base damage plus 4k" that's a great idea right? Take Aim spam is not a skill to "deal real damage," nothing much else I can think of.

Most skills aside from Barrage are for effect not damage as they don't hit much more than auto attack and takes longer to channel. Archer is the one class most dependent on auto attack. That's why expansion shafts archers the most.

Although with enough shafting to auto attack damage archers may have to resort to **** skill spamming. Get ready to take some Knockback Arrows and Kiss of Snakes. In fact, for those of you that got Kiss of Snakes you just ****ed yourselves of another skill spam option LOL.

The amount of people who try to make claims about archers and yet don't understand these basic simple facts about archers is staggering.

And it's kinda sad really to see an already disadvantaged class getting shafted as a result.



Note to self: Wait til you're done editing next time. b:laugh

Quilue - Sanctuary

Yeah what I don't want is PvP ending up like Faction Base instances if you guys remember that.

With 20% extra damage from Primal and squad buffs reducing auto attack it just may have to happen!

XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear

Lets see archer's skill spamming results in less purges and here's why. ANY skill with an EFFECT CANNOT proc spirit blackhole. So the new class is already at a huge advantage having that 65-68% auto attack passive. Meaning while I am trying to purge it with auto attacks it can Evade 1 of those purges and still be kiting away, or responding to my attacks. Archer's have been staggering and the only people who complain about archers are complaining about THE PURGE, not the actual archer. The arguement always comes down to QQ purge from 32 meters away QQ. I've purged end game AAs who still don't go down easily, same with end game HAs. You complain about purge, when most melee classes can swap out a purge weapon and hammer away at a target until said result happens. Or they can just use Celestial Sword on a genie. I've seen a lot of tanky HAs resort to this because it works. Hell even barbs have a better purge chance in a skill, clean sweap 20% chance to purge.

Archer's have a total of 4 skills that can proc purge 6 if they didn't get some primal/demon or sage upgrades.
Take Aim, Thunderous Blast, Lightning Strike, and Barrage of Arrows. The others are Winged Pledge and Deadly Shot. All other skils have an effect and will never proc purge. And before anyone says Frost Splash, the skill text may read proc's weapon effects but it doesn't.

Now lets compare weapon procs:
GoF 33%
Sac Strike 25%
Purify Spell 8%
Spirit Blackhole 8%

All of those are your proc chances. Purify spell gets proc'd more due to the fact that you have to hit the thing with purify spell for it to work, more ppl hitting it, more likely it is to proc. Archer's can only get a little above 1 attack rate per second with demon quickshot. And generally have to rely on the auto attack for a purge.


The archer class itself as Kossy has pointed out has been and is staggering. These new classes don't do anything but dig the grave further.

Joe - Morai

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

22% less damage from melee skills doesnt stack with 25% less damage from melee auto attacks

its a complete different thing and melèè autoattacks in pvp are really obsolete already none using them

Hotty ._.

- Hazedragon Bloodline

Reduce melee autoattack damage by 65%, melee SKILLS damage by 25%.

xDDD the dmg reduce from the buff is general melee dmg, so both auto attacks and skill dmg.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

WTF...what else is there? Skill spam? Channel 1.6s+ for "base damage plus 4k" that's a great idea right? Take Aim spam is not a skill to "deal real damage," nothing much else I can think of.

Most skills aside from Barrage are for effect not damage as they don't hit much more than auto attack and takes longer to channel. Archer is the one class most dependent on auto attack. That's why expansion shafts archers the most.

Although with enough shafting to auto attack damage archers may have to resort to **** skill spamming. Get ready to take some Knockback Arrows and Kiss of Snakes. In fact, for those of you that got Kiss of Snakes you just ****ed yourselves of another skill spam option LOL.

When I think about it...I doubt that archers will get shafted. You know...the buffs from Lord of Captivation and the bosses in FSP also nerf aps DMG. Which class is excluded from that? Ya, archer. So there might as well be the same chance that it's the same thing here. If so then archers will be completely excluded. It states "melee" in this translation. Archers attacks (both skills and auto) are ranged, not melee.

So chances are that archers only get nerfed vs Duskblades. If it works as anyone believes right now then ya...when everyone is max buffed...archers got shafted big time xDD (then it's still only 22%, since the other thing is a passive from the fairy).

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver

XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Lets see archer's skill spamming results in less purges and here's why. ANY skill with an EFFECT CANNOT proc spirit blackhole. So the new class is already at a huge advantage having that 65-68% auto attack passive. Meaning while I am trying to purge it with auto attacks it can Evade 1 of those purges and still be kiting away, or responding to my attacks. Archer's have been staggering and the only people who complain about archers are complaining about THE PURGE, not the actual archer. The arguement always comes down to QQ purge from 32 meters away QQ. I've purged end game AAs who still don't go down easily, same with end game HAs. You complain about purge, when most melee classes can swap out a purge weapon and hammer away at a target until said result happens. Or they can just use Celestial Sword on a genie. I've seen a lot of tanky HAs resort to this because it works. Hell even barbs have a better purge chance in a skill, clean sweap 20% chance to purge.

Archer's have a total of 4 skills that can proc purge 6 if they didn't get some primal/demon or sage upgrades.
Take Aim, Thunderous Blast, Lightning Strike, and Barrage of Arrows. The others are Winged Pledge and Deadly Shot. All other skils have an effect and will never proc purge. And before anyone says Frost Splash, the skill text may read proc's weapon effects but it doesn't.

Now lets compare weapon procs:
GoF 33%
Sac Strike 25%
Purify Spell 8%
Spirit Blackhole 8%

All of those are your proc chances. Purify spell gets proc'd more due to the fact that you have to hit the thing with purify spell for it to work, more ppl hitting it, more likely it is to proc. Archer's can only get a little above 1 attack rate per second with demon quickshot. And generally have to rely on the auto attack for a purge.


The archer class itself as Kossy has pointed out has been and is staggering. These new classes don't do anything but dig the grave further.

>GoF 33%
>Sac Strike 25%

Yeah... well, how about get those numbers right, no?
Archer is just a support back line class anyway b:avoid

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Skill spam archer is old news on servers where end game gears are freely available.

But even right now on retail servers, it's not that much worse than auto attacking.

Currently, an archer's aps is 0.83. Auto attack archers are commonly demon, so demon quickshot brings it up to 1.18 attacks per second.

If you had instead skill spammed, you would use 1.49 seconds per attack (because you have -11% channeling, you would only need 0.89 seconds to channel a skill), giving you an aps of 0.67.

However, endless breeze will give you a 14% damage boost. So it is almost as if you're doing 0.77 attacks per second in terms of your DPS. (rounded up to nearest valid aps)

But theres more. Since skill spam archers are commonly sage, they have a 10% crit advantage over auto attack archers. Archers have about 80% crit these days (i think?), so demon archers have 90% crit rate and sage archers have 100% crit rate. This is essentially a 1.9x dps boost vs 2.0x dps boost. Thus, sage archers have another 5.2% dps advantage, making it almost as if you're doing 0.80 attacks per second. (rounded down to nearest valid aps)

So even as is, skill spamming as a sage archer does nearly the same dps as auto attacking as a demon archer. Sure, with Demon quickshot, a demon archer's DPS still blow's sage archer's skill spam out of the water, but here is something to consider: a demon archer's quickshot speed boost only procs half the time, whereas Sage Archer's quickshot crit boost is guaranteed.

Furthermore, I don't know how to consider the ability to instantly charge Take Aim every 3 seconds into my DPS equation. In other words, every 3 seconds, you only need 0.6 second to do an attack, much faster than even a demon archer's boosted attack speed. I am pretty sure this will bring the DPS difference between skill spamming and auto attacking even closer.

So yeah, there you go. Hope this helps you rest easier at night, though I honestly don't know why I bothered. Besides, gear difference is so huge on official you won't be able to see it in action for yourself anyway. But yes, archers did get shafted - but for a different reason. R9 only allows bow, but archers were meant to be able to choose between bow, slingshot and xbows.