Why does everyone hate hybrid builds?

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The last APS barbs were from back when they had 8K HP due to using partially OHT gears and LA orns, not the 30K standing R9rr+10 vit stone monsters they can be today

b:surrender

I knew a few of those, sad thing is @ 101 with 5 vit you got 4890 with lvl 11 buff with no gear on. Most did that because "aps" got them in a niv squads not dps. its sad really, with veno + bm those bosses were/are 2 spark kills with just one zerk sin. The epeen syndrom was rampant.

I wish PWI had some kind of DPS meter, showing how much DPS each person did in a fight, like game you-know-what.

Domethies - Raging Tide wrote: »

Okay, so i was stood in west today messing around with some guys doing duels and such, and these guys came over and were making comments, mainly about my barb as its aps. Now he was calling me fail and that i wasnt a real barb cause i can use claws and all that classic stuff about why aps barbs are a waste of space. But then it occurred to me, i rarely have squad wipes i can tank pretty much anything without any issues at all, so why was i getting this much hate?

And its not just aps barbs either, ive seen people telling other hybrid classes that they fail at the game too, everything from aps psy to HA clerics, but why do these types of builds get so much hate? Obviously they have major drawbacks which (i would assume) is noted by the person before they go for these builds.

So my question for you guys, if they are not wiping out your squads, they can pull their own weight and are not impairing your game in anyway, why would you hate on someone else's play style? b:puzzled

It is very simple my APS-brother. Simply because they have no clue at all about this game. They just think they do. APS-Barbs are by far the best farming class\build in this game. You just need some twinks for buffs and you're unstopable.

Even in PvP, APS-Barbs are very powerful. No one ever said we are bound to the fists in PvP? I mainly use my axe there ofc. The bonus in Dex even makes me way more powerful then regular full str builds. while they even miss with Blood Bath on...I just laugh at them with my 10k accu. And if you're going the same build gear wise as I am (means 4 parts r9 and double -int chest) you still got 5 aps +the str bonus. I have way more dmg output then regular g16 sins even if their dags are +12.

I can practically take on anyone in PvP with no problem at all. there is no build with more potential in PvE and it still got alot of potential in PvP. Don't let those nubtards talk down this precious build!

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The lack of intelligance in your post is sickening.

Good, you saw the idiocy in your post too? I swear to god your post was nothing but e-peen stroking, which required intentionally misunderstanding some of the points you replied to. Not that I really expect anything more from you.

Aps barbs had bad name mostly for idiots with ridiculously low refines - Saying its impossible is ignorant, period. Nor is 7k standing something which is anything even remotely competent - 15k+ standing and we get to the point where your average idiots stop failing too much. Granted meridians, avatars of war and all the other **** added since vana days, its pretty hard to have complete lack of defenses these days on older toons.

I am actually surprised when aps barb manages to tank these days for few fairly obvious reasons. 1. sin with same gear deals distinctly more damage due daggers > fists. Not to forget how sins get to put far more points into damage multiplier. 2. Antiaps bosses are pretty much only thing which gets added to game these days - tanking with axes will always be better option, discounting few absurd cases.

Alternative builds are weak mostly for the lack of gear. R9T3 is simply too much stronger to really have build which could compare. If there was alternative R9T3s, we could have different builds but as said gear is plain and simple stronger than others, one would have to come up with major advantage to justify using inferior gear. N3 on other hand is so much stronger than older gear while being cheap it kinda kills variety the same way R9T3 does, only on lower gear tier.

Whole cleric convo is pointless - only works on low tier gear and comes with major cost. Unless you are catacleric of small TW faction, I really dont see any point for such build outside of laughs. I would also bet if we picked random stranger on the streets of Pasadena we would stumble on person with better grasp of this game than you.

When barb is one of the weakest DD classes, with how average barbs are build the weakest, I would call it common sense to not drag a barb in squad when you dont need one, if you want that fast run. Also mentioned the direction this game is going - killing aps, making aps builds less and less useful. Funny enough the extra dex aps barbs have is prolly not such a bad idea with current gear standards with even robes walking with decent evasion.

Last point, which you intentionally misunderstood, was bout how, for example, you dont stat DD with massive vit points, a gain which is most often completely irrelevant for purpose of class in squad these days. I dont agree with everything he/she wrote but your arguments are just so much worse with an ego to rival the kings of old days.

Metalpuritan - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think it is stupid this thread is now all about barbs and APS builds for barbs. That is not what this thread was about, or am I missing something?

I mean, think about it people, with this latest expansion we could very well see HA sins that still retain their, or at least most of their APS ability. They could replace their LA arms and boots with TT99 lionheart armor and then equip their TT99 ashuras ornaments, then replace the Vana pants with HA as well and viola HA 4APS base sin in mostly HA. If they can find a G15 set of daggers with dual int stats they can actually keept he TT99 Lionheart ornaments and still be 3.33 base and have very high Pdef..

Doing this with the added stat points from the latest expansion, well, they can do it and suffer little to no penalty to their ability to do their job at all.

I think everyone here is so focused on the past that the present state of the game is escaping them. The game has changed. It isn't like it was 2 months ago people.

And what would be the point of HA sins? Meridians, avatars of war, sins get to the point even in aps set there really is no need for HA build outside of really low refines. Well more like any use from one. Aps set is mostly PvE set for TT and Warsong these days, not too demanding defenses required with full buffs people tend to run those. After certain point extra defenses become pointless.

There is also key points wrong in suggested build - LA orns are plain ****, period. Even BMs use HA orns so they can refine p.def and use LA boots/bracers for -int set bonus. That also provides them a bit more m.def. Higher tier aps set sins dont lack p.def, its m.def they are hurting for. Also HA gear requires a lot of str, which is away from damage.

I cant remember exactly where my sins p.def sits now after avatars of war but I think she is closing to 17k p.def fully buffed while m.def wont pass 10k. Hp was something between 16 & 17k. I suppose she is high tier farming sin but still quite a bit from top sins. W/o buffs she is bit squishy but as any farming is "always" done with full buffs, thats not too important. While more stat points means more room for such build, the instances aps set would be used arent demanding enough on defenses to really justify loss of 150 dex points.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The lack of intelligance in your post is sickening.

what would you expect from the great DionDagger. Give us favor stop putting yourself on topb:angryb:angry

What it comes down to is if a person likes the way they made their character and can play that character well enough to benefit any squad they participate in and/or play it well solo then who really gives a damn about what anyone else thinks about it.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The lack of intelligance in your post is sickening.

Calm your chesticles mate, nothing was said that required petty insults.

I've had the pleasure of knowing and squading with some very effective hybrids, and the horror of dealing with some particularly crappy ones. What I find makes the difference between the two is how well they adjust to different situations.

I often ask myself (and those players) what they accomplish in going with their hybrid builds. Every hybrid build is a trade-off in one sense or another. Typically I find that most hybrid builds are created with the intent on improving their capabilities while alone. In this, they excel. They address a weakness of their class and find the means to compensate like an APS barb increasing their DPS to finish off mobs/bosses faster, or an HA cleric being able to survive soloing larger groups of mobs thus arriving at a similar result. Some find that a hybrid build suits their playstyle better in PVP. It generally allows them to do on their own what would often need the help of others to do or do efficiently. The challenge of these builds comes when squad dynamics come into play and their choice to compensate for their class' shortcomings no longer balances with the sacrifices made to their stronger natural capabilities or limits their abilities in their expected roles.

The pure builds have distinct strengths and weaknesses that allow, though often need, other classes to have a synergistic relationship with in order to maximize each class' potential. By approaching the game this way, each class can focus on their strengths without the burden of having to work around their innate class weaknesses. A barb ready to rip agro away in a split second from the squishy (weakness) sin allows the sin to focus on DDing (strength) instead of balancing agro, or a barb that is able to handle agroing and tanking a large pull allows an EP to forgo some defense (weakness) for faster heals (strength). A pure magic EP needs to cast less heals on a tank and therefore has more time to aid the squad in other ways available to their class such as purifying, reviving, and debuffing, without causing additional stress on the tank/squad.

The problem that poisons the general community's opinions of hybrid builds is when they forget that in squad they're wanted typically to fill these rolls and to increase the overall potential of the squad. When someone world chats for a barb they're not looking for a DD, and when one calls for an EP they aren't looking for a tank. So long as those playing these hybrids can fulfill the roles which are needed of them then there is no problem, and often the fact that they're hybrids goes unnoticed entirely. On the contrary, when a barb refuses to put their fists/APS gear away for a pull and dies or gets the EP killed by focusing on a single target, or an HA claw sin doesn't start with daggers to rib strike/subsea before pulling out their preferred weapon to DD a boss resulting in the need for more heals, repairs, and longer kills, we start to see less synergy and a squad wipe becomes more likely; a situation which is something everyone notices and results in a lower opinion of these otherwise effective hybrid builds. With capable players using hybrid builds flying under the radar, most only take note when a problem occurs and they quickly blame it on the build rather than the players and their skill/knowledge of squad dynamics.

There are, of course, situations where the hybrids are excellent additions to a squad. Extra DD is always welcome once a barb has done their 'job' as a barb or if the squad is OP in which case we just like big numbers and thank you for your buffs and your typical task as a barb is done, let's go kill it! An HA cleric that can survive long enough for a tank that has DC'd to return and then revive a fallen squad can only be considered an asset.

The bottom line is that only the hybrids can make a better name for their interesting and exciting ideas among the player base by exceeding the normal players expectations, but before exceeding they must meet them. Afterwards be proud of your build and let people know of what you're capable, both in and out of squad. You might have something better then what's commonly accepted and I for one want to see it!

As one final note, there is such thing as a fail hybrid build though exceptionally rare. No one has a use for an AA barb/sin/bm/ea, and APS casters, with no APS buffs (other than genies/pots) and smaller chi gain per attack, in my opinion, give up far too much to be more than just a fun gimmick in most cases (I know a veno who is a notable exception). If you fall into this category please, have fun, enjoy your build, and when you're tired of playing alone and once again would like to work as an accepted and contributing member of a squad, restat or make another that can be a team player.

Domethies - Raging Tide wrote: »

b:chuckle Arcane barb? you mean like this one?

That is actually impressive o-o

SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This thread again, always ends up in flaming people who want to be a little difference. I have said it many times before that the hybrid builds are usually not the most efficient way to stat your toon but are more than capable in doing pretty much everything in the game. For a lot of people hybrid builds are a project and something to have fun with.

The one good thing hybrid builds of all types do is force the player to learn how to play his/her toon.

I'll take that over any formula build and AFK macro player.

\old skool barb that believes Barbs are for Tanking
\\you're quite welcome to do whatever you want with your barb, except proclaim that any build other than yours is a waste of time
\\\like *this guy*

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Dont worry too much about what others say. Besides plain ignorance there can be many psychological factors including but not limited to:

-Hating APS in general because they blame it for "destroying" the game.
-Feeling inadequate because they feel you threathen them in their role as DD.
-Feeling inadequate because they can only tank, while you are allround.
-The realisation they could have been so much more than only a tank, but its easier to trash talk you than to change their build.
-The general human way of thinking: everyone who thinks or does differently is an idiot and should be crucified. Homosexual, Atheist, Christian, Muslim, Socialist, Capitalist, APS barb. Always the same thing all over the world ever since humans are there.

Seriously, you're a Barb, not Jesus


.

I had an HA cleric. I ended up going fill magic after rebirth. I am pretty sure I will be switching back to HA on the second rebirth. In G16 AA it has less than half the HP and lower defenses than in the HA set I made for HA alts (G16+10 vit sharded).

For an alt cleric it is really great for dual client stuff. You don't have to worry about it dying if it gets interrupted or purged while on your main. In AA it won't survive 1 tick of bleed from the toad in Flowsilver and dies occasionally due to the mobs or water traps on the second boss. I could get better ornaments and refines on the AA set but it is a lot cheaper to use the HA gear I already have. The worst thing about it is poor channeling but you can work around that to an extent.

Also it is fun to watch people freak out when they see a cleric with 20k+ HP. Can't really do much killing in PVP but survives very well. Overall very fun to play around with, but I don't think I would do it as a main (more because I'm not a very good cleric than anything else). I kind of want to restat APS just for the lulz ... I can always restat later.

I have an LA veno (i'm actually lvl 90, for some reason forum doesn't believe it) and I just LOVE the build. I restatted at lvl 70 and do not regret it. For PvE, it's awesome; I have more HP and P. Def which gives me a much better survivability when soloing TT and general quests. In BHs (especially 69), there have been quite a few times where the squad was wiped except me and the cleric, and it was my job to keep the boss from resetting while the cleric revived and healed the rest of the squad. Granted, with my low lvl and gear (TT90 green), I'm toast in NW, but I don't like to participate in much PvP anyway...

As everyone's pretty much said so far, to each his own. Live and let Live. Do your thang, baby! Etc. b:kiss

One of my friends used to be an APS barb around the time before Nation Wars....he never died the normal way. Ever. And he performed being a barb just as good as any other barb. He went R9 after NW was released and made APS farming in nirvana trash.

Only time he died as when we'd fail to kill the foxes in nirvana and the boss started one shotting everyone, but that's unavoidable sometimes, as well as the final boss and he's boxes.