Reviving The Game

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I'd love to know what lower level than 70 squads you've been running that do the entirety of FF. Again level 75+ gameplay would not change.

Thanks to FF being hard to form in the low 80s nowadays, I've had to bring 60s clerics, just as one example, but that's beyond the point -- it would clearly affect those being powerleveled or powerleveling their alts. There's still been no justification for such changes.

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Brining one 60 cleric =/= squads going and doing total FF below level 75. Said cleric was with an apparently mostly 80s squad, by your own admission. Using someone for BB and buffs =/= people below level 75 regularly run the instance themselves. They do not. It isn't happening on any significant level. At that level they are doing b/m/h for their alt, or buying it from someone who can. New players would not have the income to do the same thing, the only new players who stayed are the ones wiling to take the gamble with RL coin. It is no wonder those people are few and far between. What you are doing is hurting PWE's ability to draw in new customers, that is the justification. It is bad for business. There is no reason PWI has to be a short term project only, and many games prolong their longevity by getting people interacting with the older content with new players. Such as legacy versions of things. By comparison, FF is a very small code. Literally the only thing they'd have to do is make it so you can't fly into the instance, there is already a level cap to stone in and to open it.



This thread is about pre-75 FC only. The rest of the gameplay would not change.

What's really hurting PWI from drawing new players has little to nothing to do with how fast people can level. Its about the gear gap and the pressure to charge real-life money to even come CLOSE to what people have at end-game.

And The thread maybe about that but its still biased and I really don't think it should change even Pre-75. It's a great tool to level fast without having to worry. Hypers are already restricted you only get 10 activations a day.

EDIT: I just wanted to point out that I can have a different opinion than you. I don't have to agree with what you think should happen. I don't' see your points being the core issues for what is causing the game to struggle. So no, I don't think Powerleveling should change at all. The other option is there. No one forces you to power level your character.

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What's really hurting PWI from drawing new players has little to nothing to do with how fast people can level. Its about the gear gap and the pressure to charge real-life money to even come CLOSE to what people have at end-game.

And The thread maybe about that but its still biased and I really don't think it should change even Pre-75. It's a great tool to level fast without having to worry. Hypers are already restricted you only get 10 activations a day.

EDIT: I just wanted to point out that I can have a different opinion than you. I don't have to agree with what you think should happen. I don't' see your points being the core issues for what is causing the game to struggle. So no, I don't think Powerleveling should change at all. The other option is there. No one forces you to power level your character.

Didn't say you have to agree, it's just people keep making the same arguments over and over again about how post 75 is a good way to learn, or that people want to roll it back to 2009, or that people only want to change it out of nostalgia. And it is frustrating because none of those things has anything to do with this thread. But it's like people can't even defend FF without resorting to pointing out things that have nothing to do with the proposal.

The gear gap affects current players only. That is a player retention issue. Have you been in a faction that recruits all levels and new players. Many of them have dozens of people in them that never make it past level 30. Some of that is people just didn't like their alts, but some of that is also people tried the game and didn't like it. So many here keep talking about how boring it is to quest alone, but then claim that since it is boring to quest alone nothing at all should be done to fix it. So what would you do to get new customers to stick around long enough to have the level 100 concern of unbalanced gear disparity?

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

There is nothing in this thread that says it effects the majority levels in squads only, and a random 60 cleric would be allowed. Im sorry but I dont see an option for that, not that it would negate the points already made.

You make a good arguement, but you are totally caught up in this illusion that new players are only leaving because of FC.

IF we have gotten any truely new players in the past couple of years, can you really be so sure that once they realized the COST of being able to fairly compete in the game, after all the grinding and quests, that THAT has absolutely nothing to do with their decision to leave?? f:confused

To get to do FC, how long do you have to quest alone? How long does it take a new player to earn the coin to start buying heads? Keep in mind, at level 45, 1 toon can earn an amazing 75K a day thanks to good old Jolly. How many runs would this new player be buying on his own ingame merit alone?

Its honestly ridiculous to even bring 'new players' into the conversation. *shrugs*

IIt shouldn't need to be said. When people say a level 80 squad, they mean most of the squad is in that level range. The squad isn't centered around one person who isn't even the lead and who is brought along only because they couldn't find anyone else. That's just common sense. And the thread is about pre 75 FF only.

It isn't ridiculous to bring new players into the conversation and I am under no illusion other factors result in them leaving as well. But I do know that not being able to participate in the content is a big one because it's an MMO. Common sense tells you people play an MMO to get the MMO experience. If the early game isn't providing that, then it is likely a cause for a good portion of people leaving. This thread isn't about the other factors, it's about FF. You gotta start somewhere.

I know some of the people are leaving because they are bored doing everything alone because I rerolled servers and talked to some of these people. I read the forums all the time and have seen some new players say how boring it was to quest alone, and how they almost quit the game because of it. Not too long ago, we had a thread where a new player came back to give this game second chance beause he loved the class and the aesthetic even though he quit last time because of how alone the new player content is. I rerolled server in the past year, I started from complete scratch with no high level main to do things for me. And despite the fact that I clearly love this game, I almost quit it entirely because of how mind numbingly dull it was to do everything all on my own and having every time I tried to do stuff with only at levels thwarted by people who asked for lead and invited their main, and then acted like they were doing me some kind of favor. I can't see how everyone can easily see the reason Nation Wars killed nirvana, but can't figure out how FF kills the other methods of leveling up. It's the same exact reason. It gives more a lot more rewards for less effort.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

"No chance" is a straw man you made up to justify your crusade -- I haven't suggested you stand no chance, but that you stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting your way just like the others have. I'm not telling you how to conduct yourself, I'm merely voicing an opinion and stating how things are, although I see you clearly have trouble with people who don't agree with you and due to this wish them to exit a discussion you don't want dissent on.

Dissent without purpose is just trolling. If you were voicing a coherent opinion back then instead of just saying "it'll never work" and leaving it at that, that'd be one thing. Interesting how you've picked that up in the three hours or so since I last visited the forums. >_> What you had to offer three hours ago was:

There is no reviving this game.

Considering that's the whole aim of our "crusade" as you put it, this isn't a line that screams "constructive contributor to the discussion."

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The conditions aren't any different whatsoever, except with the circumstances that the same opinions espoused about killing hypers, or changing FF entirely have achieved nothing. At one point PWI disabled hypers in FF but they changed it back because it accomplished nothing. People are always going to find the easiest route to the most (or in this case, easiest/fastest way to level), if those who develop and are in charge of development over PWI cared about the results of it, they'd have changed it almost 4 years ago. As time goes on, that is not a further testament to your argument, it's a further testament to the fact that nothing will change. You've been complaining for years and remind me how many of your suggestions have been implemented ever since.

I think you're well aware that the line of communication between us and the devs carries all the clarity and reliability of two cans and a string, on the best of days. They selectively implement "emergency fixes" for things they care about. Things we care about get implemented months later, if at all. You can feed us the "PWE/wanmei doesn't care about the players" line, and maybe you wouldn't be wrong. But where's the harm in trying?

The change to FF was one of those "emergency fixes." Accomplished nothing? Well, I'm sorry if seeing people in the questing zones again isn't worth anything to you, but that kinda brings us to the point, doesn't it? You clearly think the game can't be saved, so what difference does it make to you?

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What mainly keeps/brings people is content. Developers already shot PWI in the foot by alienating people from most of it's content and making it easier to bypass it.

So what's kept people around in 2013 is new content and the ability to quickly level and experience that new content. The frenzy of people questing for this title **** and attaining that free 79/100 skill shows how effective content is. PWE is making due with it's bad and short term decisions, and the only way to look is at the present and forward, not backwards.

Come on now, don't tell me someone who's been around as long as you hasn't noticed how temporary such "frenzies" are. We've all had those friends who come on every time there's a content update, only to fade into the background two weeks later. At best they'll stick around long enough to obtain the overpowered gear du jour, and then everything is boring again, so they leave. This has been the case at least since Genesis.

You can't seriously expect to throw new content at the problem and expect it to go away. We get new content once every 3-4 months at best, and it's clear from the population of the game right now that we're losing people faster than we gain them back, assuming we gain anyone back from content updates (which is very rare). Newbies don't come for content updates. They come for the big, beautiful game world you see from Lv1. Then they find out it's empty, save for the occasional highlevel wandering around who, if asked, will tell them to buy Frost powerleveling without a second thought.

This **** is not sustainable and you know it. The sheer ratio of work our mediocre devs have to put into content updates to the ****-poor boost in player interest they provide is staggering. Who would want to keep throwing money at that? Especially since all they really have to do is flip one switch, suddenly the lowgame becomes populated again, and the newbies aren't quitting anymore. It won't fix all the game's problems, no... but it's the critical step that the other necessary fixes cannot be built without, at this point.

You can post all the useless cynicism you want, but the fact is that our point was proven in a week. If wanmei can't see that, they're simply oblivious.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

No, I wouldn't have implemented things the way it happened in PWI. Having worked in the F2P MMO industry, I had an issue back in 2009 when PWI introduced gear into the cash shop.. that was a big industry no-no.

I'm saying do nothing to change things now, given it's not me who runs the friggen game. There is already a balancing act being implemented, there is still new content. PWI was clearly a short term project, so given what PWI is, and not what I wanted it to be, it's simply being realistic.. which clearly went well over your head.

Game populations always decline, around 2009 marked PWI's peak, and ever since then it's been in a state of decline. You're acting as if it hasn't been. All games go through this, some people like yourself just have trouble accepting things for what they are.

And again... is it really so hard for you to believe that people can go on pushing for positive changes despite accepting those facts? I'm sure you'd agree that PWI in its original form had all the ingredients necessary to stick around well beyond the shelf life that wanmei seems determined to cram it into. It wasn't some half-assed cash grab from the start of things. The old game still exists, and if revived, it still has a chance of sticking around (and no, I don't mean that in the "bring back 2008" sense; just some major rebalancing).

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This poll is for the club of people who only are agreeable to the inane solutions presented.

Which is funny when people cite polls like this as to why it's what the populace wants. b:chuckle.. rather than, oh, I don't know, how the populace actually plays? This is tough.

Please post the graph of server statistics you no doubt have which prove this point.

Wait, you don't have one? You said Frost powerleveling is how the populace plays... and you don't have the data to back that up? ...huh.

What on earth does luck have to do with BHs pre-100?

You do realize only BH100 gives those added rewards, right? If not then the gap between you and the people this actually affects the most and would go towards benefiting is already rather large and shows exactly why we could use a change like this.

Edit: Wow this was a late reply to that.

As for the level gap, it's NOT the big deal you all are acting like it is. A casual player and newbie can level to 75 EASILY nowadays. It's even faster if there were actual people around for them. Ang euss what? After 75, everything would be the same so those who wished to start running hyper FC at 75 could easily do so just as you currently can. The only ones who will be actually hurt if this were to happen are the people who want to do nothing but poerlevel their alts from level 1 (and there are still ways they could do so) or those who want to sell powerleveling services to those below level 75. That's literally it.

OPKossy wrote: »

What on earth does luck have to do with BHs pre-100?

You do realize only BH100 gives those added rewards, right? If not then the gap between you and the people this actually affects the most and would go towards benefiting is already rather large and shows exactly why we could use a change like this.

Edit: Wow this was a late reply to that.

As for the level gap, it's NOT the big deal you all are acting like it is. A casual player and newbie can level to 75 EASILY nowadays. It's even faster if there were actual people around for them. Ang euss what? After 75, everything would be the same so those who wished to start running hyper FC at 75 could easily do so just as you currently can. The only ones who will be actually hurt if this were to happen are the people who want to do nothing but poerlevel their alts from level 1 (and there are still ways they could do so) or those who want to sell powerleveling services to those below level 75. That's literally it.

What are you on about? All BHs have drops other than coin. Did you CS all your gear, even the noob stuff? Seriously - do we play the same game? Or would you be one of those Dreamchaser babies? f:confused

BaronSamedi - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Even better, just revert FC to its original state. People said it was too hard back then, well lets see how they do in there now.

It's too easy with all the updates over the past few years to hit 100+ without even setting foot in that noob factory anyway.

Good idea. Perhaps someone could take Kossy along, for the experience of doing an instance below level 100. b:chuckle

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Invalid yet you make the same points I do.. that power leveling would occur anyways without hypered FF, including giving examples of how easy it is to level already. You just helped the case as to why people should probably bark up another tree -- your assistance was much appreciated.

You missed my point entirely. FC is the only exp instance that has NO level requirement to keep anyone under level 85 out. To my knowledge every other exp instance does. Now think, just how do you learn to play by only killing heads, when the other exp instances allow for only further learning of your class?
Hello? Learning to work as a team! Example: You can duo a low level PV sure, but even then you're learning from your mistakes and still learning along with a teammate. Getting use to seeing another class's skills, what they mean and how to react to them is part of a team effort.

The FF polls are irrelevant because only a fraction of players visit the forums (mostly because they have problems, or because they're malcontents) never mind vote on them, and given that people can vote with their alts, polls are nothing to take seriously here.

I already told you my answer for this.

As for the first paragraph, that's why I said on the points related to this issue do nothing. The supposed "damage" is already done, the population is where it's at already, most of them are high levels, there are hardly ever any low level BH/quests squads unless accompanied by a higher level, the achievement gap between low and high level players is enormous, the gap between r9s3 and everyone else is enormous as well.

You can't just suddenly change this game into what it was 2008/2009 after years of turning it into what it is today. That's the kind of risk that is business unfriendly and better for the type of servers we can't discuss here.

You can't do much about high levels doing BH's for low levels, but I'm not gonna even go there. BH's are not a seriously huge exp spam and can only be done once a day. FC is not a daily. That's another problem.

BaronSamedi - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The new content they added? You are joking right? Players will be finishing it within a few days if most haven't already.

Close FC and you will see larger return to open world activities across the map and a lot more people running the low BH's as well.

Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out smart guy.

They havent. Some of it they have to wait for. I personally like the new instance where you have to find the entrance. Im not being sarcastic either - that sounds like something fun to go find and explore. b:victory

Then don't bother responding to it.

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

Note:
This is no longer a discussion for those of you that haven't realized how much of the game below 80 has changed. This is not a discussion about how butt-hurt people are going to be because it will take them a little more work to hit 100 than it does currently.
This is a vote and a discussion on a topic that has already received the majority vote from the community. If you are planning on trolling or trying to de-rail this thread, keep your peace and go elsewhere.

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

Well goodie! That means I qualify! *cheers*

Ive made 3 noob chars. I know exactly what they face. Thats why the only way they progress now is by doing Lucids if I feel like logging and waiting for them all.

Im never going to use RoR, and wish I could sell my shards to RoR junkies.

NOTE!: I could easily CS them Hypered FC runs instead. Guess I really dont care that much, huh?

They tried Jolly - hated him! b:chuckle

They all quested a bit, and bored easy of the same quests over and over again in triplicate. Even joining low level factions left them sitting in silence and watching a core group do stuff.

Sorry, thats reality. There is another sad reality...

let's say you are correct, and now all these alleged new players - nobbing around in the game for the first time - now have to deal with the nala retentive Pro players who are on their 10th toon, and expect the noobs to play their class perfect.

Btw, one of the things I used to do in a low level faction, was help the lower levels do Hyper FC runs for heads - leaving the squad once it was time to kill the heads.

I guess all those factions can hang that up once this goes into place. Meh, there is always Jewelscalen, and unlimited BH29s, right?


What did you have in mind anyway for the thread? Just a bunch of "Oh yeah - you are right!" posts. b:chuckle

I'm not the one that made the thread miss, but I can see you qualify for the troll section.

Now let me ask you this. When did you join the game? I started when level 100's were numbered as below 60- on my server. My first high level I saw was a level 80 that helped with Ocean Tusker in a full squad. All the TT runs had people on first time toons looking to farm weapons for the next 10 levels they needed them. The content was *** kick hard and I loved it. Now nothing is a challenge that I would have loved as a low leveled player which just makes me glad I joined the game at stage where it had not yet been heavy into power leveling.

If you want a reason for this thread, it's purpose would be that the older players are trying to keep the game alive because content that is too easy for the next generation will getting boring FAST, and they will leaving sooner. Some of us just love the game that much. Do you?

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

The 'older' players, many of which spend all their time with a close group of friends only, if they actually play at all anymore, or ever really did for that matter - want to kill the game just a little bit it appears to me.

*sigh* Proof please.

I have no doubt Sylen believes what he is saying, Im just not sure how much current experience he has on the topic.

Hell of a lot more then most of us.

I came up the long hard way - but my noobs cant do it, and thats a current reality. They dont have other real noobs to play with, and not all of us play games so we can be belittled by drill sargeants while we try to learn to play a class.

This is one of the reasons why we are trying to petition this FC problem.

As for what I am - I am intelligent. Your 'troll' label for me means nothing. I am a mysterious subject, of which you have no clue. You obviously see what you want to see, which has no bearing whatsoever on the subject you are looking at - in reality. b:thanks

Ah, but we don't play this game for reality now do we? We play for fun. It's making sure it stays fun that counts. Oh and RT is about 73% filled with trolls, so your right that label for you is nothing, forget I said that.

But you still didn't answer my question, do you love this game enough?

i can lvl a noob for 1 to 80 with out hypers fcc or any enhancements.1-30 so easy to lvl lucid silver and gold can do it. 30-40 lucid silver and gold, crazy stones and bbounty hunters, IN less then a week. 40-50 lucid, crazy stones, bounty hunters, maybe some pv. two weeks 50-60 some stuff maybe with quests. 60-70 same stuff you can do pv better cause you have all skills. another two weeks. in about little over two months you lvl 70. 5 more lvls and your able to bypass this hyper stone fcc ban you are suggesting.

Asone - Raging Tide wrote: »

Ah, but we don't play this game for reality now do we? We play for fun. It's making sure it stays fun that counts. Oh and RT is about 73% filled with trolls, so your right that label for you is nothing, forget I said that.

But you still didn't answer my question, do you love this game enough?

I love this game enough to see it dying, and with the low level area and starter cities being pretty much devoid of any noticeable population for more than 2 years, and NOW someon in the name of being good for the game, wants to risk losing more by inhibiting a historic way of leveling for most alts, and new players if they can CS up the coin quick enough, or make friends real fast.

You cant go back to anything once you leave it. Go back to an old neighborhood, school, town you once lived in, and you know what find? You find that people have progressed - and life has gone on without you. Time changes everything.

The guy you like to argue with is correct - the game can only move forward. Clocks never roll backward and still keep good time.

I love this game enough to still be looking at it. Still looking for ways to make it better for myself. Its not easy to keep changing up directions either. Its almost like I still play in spite of myself. xD

If that's not love, what is? *shrugs and giggles*

I dont think its in any businesses best interest to take a "I am releasing you - if it was meant to be, you will return to me!" approach just now. b:chuckle