Reviving The Game

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

The largest part of this problem is because Wanmei purchased an unfinished product and then proceeded to fire the original developers.

I wonder what this game would have been like had that not happened? I know its pointless to think about, but I just ponder what the outcome could have been

I'm with the others that feel if there is even a slight possibility of saving the game, then I will remain vocal about attempting to save it in hopes someone with PWE realizes we do in fact enjoy the game. In its present condition, however I won't invest any more thousands of dollars to play only to look like an idiot when the plug is pulled far too soon and thinking "well that was a waste of money"

Sorry, I'm just not foolish enough to keep plopping down thousands of dollars more in this game unless I feel it will have a good long enjoyability factor with a HEALTHY population of players.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Just because a few of us are waxing idealistic at the moment doesn't mean we're ignorant of the probability of success. The only difference is that we believe that probability is non-zero, while you clearly believe otherwise.

Fine, fair enough, I have no reason not to agree-to-disagree with you. But what's it to you? What difference does it make to you if some people are acting (in your view) idealistic? You gain nothing from speaking otherwise, unless you have some parasitic need to ruin other peoples' hope. So again... what's your reason for being here?

Because I like voicing an opinion, just like you do, this approach has been laid out there for years now, without any ****s given by PWE concerning PWI, and clearly you make it more entertaining by whining about people having opposing viewpoints than simply accepting that they do.

Aftershocks - Harshlands wrote: »

My only real concern, if this actually happens, is quest blocking. I remember joining the game around the time that Tideborn first came out. I quested my way to the 70s on a cleric before I got fed up with quest blocking. Then, I made a sin and leveled him to 80s. It was about this point that I found out about FC. But the quest blocking was annoying and all i could really do is Q.Q about it. I was in unfamiliar territory, trying to learn, and being called names when I didn't know things. Very hostile.

If this change could be made and all servers could have the pve switch for players PRIOR to using hypers the first time, it would help new membership somewhat. However, I agree with the many posts that list what i call the "envy effect". You see players 10x and can't get there quickly, so you get fed up and quit, before you realize what fun you can have.

But, these are just one man's opinions about it. I hope that, whatever they do, they do something positive for the community.


~Shocks out.

Oh god that reminded me of when the TB expansion came out.. sooooo much QQ about ks'ers at quest mobs. f:laugh

maestro121

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There is no reviving this game.

This is run by a company, MMO's run for profit have a shelf life, this company has ensured the shelf life is short.

There's no magic bullet fix that will simply bring people back or attract new players like 2008/2009.

This is the reality of the situation, either you cope with it and have fun in your own way or you keep QQing on the forums as you have for years until you figure out you're not getting the PWI you want.


PWE does advertise on websites that gather traffic for those looking for F2P games.

There is no innovation with this game, and it's been that way from the start. It's recycling and cut/pasting. Corners have been cut from the start, yet there are some idealists who think you can reinvent the wheel when you're not in the driver's seat and practically zero innovation has occurred from the get-go.

A practical approach is what all players but a couple posters who post on the forums do.. play when it's fun, do something else when it's not.

Red highlights for emphasis.

PWI is like your 100 year old cancer stricken comatose Grandma on life support yet the grief stricken family (players) refuses to let go. The funny thing is, Grandpa (PWE) has already done just that.

ovenusarmanio

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I have a reason for being here in that these proposed ideas have been floating around for years now, if PWI was going to implement these changes they'd have when they realized how quickly people were leveling early 2010. We're almost 4 years into hyper stones, so don't be surprised when these ridiculous idealist notions get squashed by some realist.

We kept pushing for bug fixes, slowly getting those now after 5 years. Kept asking over and over for something only farmable to compare to vanilla rank 9, received it a few years later in the form of NV3 and to a smaller extent morai g15. Kept asking for ini editing, took 4 years but we got it. Kept asking over and over skill rebalancing, got morai and descent many years later. You can't hit a baseball, if you never swing a bat. Sometimes you strike out, but you definitely won't hit it sitting quietly on the bench. I know we won't get every change we ask for, nor will we always get them implemented in the way that we had hoped. But, there isn't any point in simply remaining quiet about it. Especially when posting on a message board many of us frequent and post in anyway, isn't very hard to do.

As for PWE's advertising, it sucks. And they need to do more of it, for all their games. Did you know one of their games, won game of the year for it's very narrow category in gameinformer magazine last year? It beat one of the games that people were claiming was going to be a PWI killer on these here boards. They didn't even take out an ad in that mag, or write an opinion piece about it that subtly pimped their other games. It was a blurb. And you don't see it advertised even on that game's webpage, despite the fact they can legitimately claim it is an award winning game. I used to see ads for their game on more than just little used MMO hut style games, in fact I think I saw it on facebook and that's how I got into this game. But I can't remember exactly. They could be doing a lot more in the way of advertising, and they could earn some better word of mouth as well by making changes the players push for.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I have a reason for being here in that these proposed ideas have been floating around for years now, if PWI was going to implement these changes they'd have when they realized how quickly people were leveling early 2010. We're almost 4 years into hyper stones, so don't be surprised when these ridiculous idealist notions get squashed by some realist.

v4liance - Heavens Tear wrote: »

...
Regarding the FCC issue:
- I'm seeing a lot of support to keep this change, or at least to have a modified version. Since it's on the table, I'll see if we can start discussing possible alternatives, such as setting a level limit, or a hyper exp lvl requirement for FCC. I cannot promise that we'll be able to get this fixed, let alone to everyone's satisfaction, but we'll do our best.

- Val

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide wrote: »

I wonder what this game would have been like had that not happened? I know its pointless to think about, but I just ponder what the outcome could have been

I'm with the others that feel if there is even a slight possibility of saving the game, then I will remain vocal about attempting to save it in hopes someone with PWE realizes we do in fact enjoy the game. In its present condition, however I won't invest any more thousands of dollars to play only to look like an idiot when the plug is pulled far too soon and thinking "well that was a waste of money"

Sorry, I'm just not foolish enough to keep plopping down thousands of dollars more in this game unless I feel it will have a good long enjoyability factor with a HEALTHY population of players.

The original devs had already partially designed the TB and EQ areas/races. They had also envisioned a land so much larger than what we currently have that it would support 5 cities on the size and expanse of Archosaur.
Keep in mind that the original max level was supposed to be 150, with much more quests and cultivations falling in line with that.
Wanmei compressed the experience tables for level 100-150 into 100-105 and then adjusted the levels on the 79+ skill books and cultivation quests.

Now consider that as a base, and imagine what it could have become.
Though, even with what we have, it is quite a game in comparison to some others, even with the limitations of the Angelica engine.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

We kept pushing for bug fixes, slowly getting those now after 5 years. Kept asking over and over for something only farmable to compare to vanilla rank 9, received it a few years later in the form of NV3 and to a smaller extent morai g15. Kept asking for ini editing, took 4 years but we got it. Kept asking over and over skill rebalancing, got morai and descent many years later. You can't hit a baseball, if you never swing a bat. Sometimes you strike out, but you definitely won't hit it sitting quietly on the bench. I know we won't get every change we ask for, nor will we always get them implemented in the way that we had hoped. But, there isn't any point in simply remaining quiet about it. Especially when posting on a message board many of us frequent and post in anyway, isn't very hard to do.

As for PWE's advertising, it sucks. And they need to do more of it, for all their games. Did you know one of their games, won game of the year for it's very narrow category in gameinformer magazine last year? It beat one of the games that people were claiming was going to be a PWI killer on these here boards. They didn't even take out an ad in that mag, or write an opinion piece about it that subtly pimped their other games. It was a blurb. And you don't see it advertised even on that game's webpage, despite the fact they can legitimately claim it is an award winning game. I used to see ads for their game on more than just little used MMO hut style games, in fact I think I saw it on facebook and that's how I got into this game. But I can't remember exactly. They could be doing a lot more in the way of advertising, and they could earn some better word of mouth as well by making changes the players push for.

There's a rather wide difference between fixing bugs (which the developers of this game are already terrible at doing) versus subjectively changing the game to magically fix what one simply perceives is wrong with it. If developers changed what each player thought was wrong (not even a class of bug, just simply a suggestion -- lowest on the totem pole of things developers in any niche of the gaming industry would ever consider spending time on) with the game there wouldn't really be any game -- it's not possible.

Also understand the difference between marketing and word of mouth. As someone who worked for a competitor to PWE in North America (subsidiary for a Korean company), the company raked in money for it's cash shop but ignored countless snail mail requests from the BBB to settle disputes. While a North American company might go out of it's way to attain a decent BBB standing for a parallel reasoning you are employing, an F2P game run by an Asian company doesn't give two ****s about the "perception" of it's game, just that people come play and spend money, and cutting costs logically as the game inevitably declines like this one has been since 2009/2010. People have complained up and down on F2P friendly/review websites that PWI has advertisements for and it hasn't made any difference.

Knowing how the industry works would better further one from fruitlessly making the same suggestion for years and not getting it that the company isn't going to invest the time to make such changes, or just flat out disagrees with (and disregards -- which is the obvious one here given the lack of action) said viewpoint.

I don't disagree with you, and fully am agreeing with Syl here about what the game could have been, but in the real world, what could have been and what are, are on two different planes of reality. In this one, blowing up the game isn't going to happen. The only changes like this will occur on the type of servers I'd get punished for suggesting.

Desdi - Sanctuary

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

As for PWE's advertising, it sucks. And they need to do more of it, for all their games. Did you know one of their games, won game of the year for it's very narrow category in gameinformer magazine last year? It beat one of the games that people were claiming was going to be a PWI killer on these here boards. They didn't even take out an ad in that mag, or write an opinion piece about it that subtly pimped their other games. It was a blurb. And you don't see it advertised even on that game's webpage, despite the fact they can legitimately claim it is an award winning game. I used to see ads for their game on more than just little used MMO hut style games, in fact I think I saw it on facebook and that's how I got into this game. But I can't remember exactly. They could be doing a lot more in the way of advertising, and they could earn some better word of mouth as well by making changes the players push for.

So true. I remember seeing the Ad for PWI on a popular site I used to use to download things and I saw this Venomancer class (didn't know what it was at first of course) and I clicked on it. It lead me to the site and I thought..hey this looks cool. Downloaded and tried it.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Because I like voicing an opinion, just like you do, this approach has been laid out there for years now, without any ****s given by PWE concerning PWI, and clearly you make it more entertaining by whining about people having opposing viewpoints than simply accepting that they do.

What's the point of having a viewpoint if all you can do with it is troll? There is no benefit gained by giving up, which is all you seem to be suggesting. Also, circumstances in the game are quite different than when that viewpoint first surfaced. If you don't believe the in-game climate has changed enough to be relevant, you're entitled to that opinion. But we know the facts. We are simply continuing on in spite of them, because we disagree that there's no chance of success. Given that, what practical purpose does your viewpoint serve in this context?

ovenusarmanio

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There's a rather wide difference between fixing bugs (which the developers of this game are already terrible at doing) versus subjectively changing the game to magically fix what one simply perceives is wrong with it. If developers changed what each player thought was wrong (not even a class of bug, just simply a suggestion -- lowest on the totem pole of things developers in any niche of the gaming industry would ever consider spending time on) with the game there wouldn't really be any game -- it's not possible.

Also understand the difference between marketing and word of mouth. As someone who worked for a competitor to PWE in North America (subsidiary for a Korean company), the company raked in money for it's cash shop but ignored countless snail mail requests from the BBB to settle disputes. While a North American company might go out of it's way to attain a decent BBB standing for a parallel reasoning you are employing, an F2P game run by an Asian company doesn't give two ****s about the "perception" of it's game, just that people come play and spend money, and cutting costs logically as the game inevitably declines like this one has been since 2009/2010. People have complained up and down on F2P friendly/review websites that PWI has advertisements for and it hasn't made any difference.

Knowing how the industry works would better further one from fruitlessly making the same suggestion for years and not getting it that the company isn't going to invest the time to make such changes, or just flat out disagrees with (and disregards -- which is the obvious one here given the lack of action) said viewpoint.

I don't disagree with you, and fully am agreeing with Syl here about what the game could have been, but in the real world, what could have been and what are, are on two different planes of reality. In this one, blowing up the game isn't going to happen. The only changes like this will occur on the type of servers I'd get punished for suggesting.

But advertising is something PWE can do for it all it's games, not just PWI. PWI didn't win any award, lol. It's why I didn't name it. This particular game though, could just put on it's website "award winning," it might not mean much in Chinas as far as advertising is concerned. But it does mean something to western audiences, which is who this game is advertised towards. Not talking about perception when I speaking of ads. I'm saying western audiences care about such things as what game won game of the year, and will be more likely to pick it up. It's a failure to advertise if they don't take advantage of winning such an award because it would probably translate to more sales.

As for suggestions, the Nirvana stage 3 gear was also added on a suggestion. Not a bug fix. Not only that but it was developed specially for us and released here first. That was based on a suggestion the majority of the player base supported. It's happened before, there is no reason why we can't post and ask for it to happen again. There is nothing fruitless about it. If nothing else, at least we can say it tried. One huge thing that has is different from now and then, is that many of the people support the change for a reason that PWE can monetize, which is attracting and retaining more new customers some of whom will undoubtedly pay money. Not because of a perception about the people who use the instance, although that is undeniably part of the reason people do not like FF.

edit as this doesn't warrant it's own post:
APS has been aggressively less effective, NV3, INI edits. All suggestions, two of which involved developing new content, that was made just because the players complained. They didn't revert FF because it didn't work, they reverted FF because it was undone by accident. They didn't even wait to see if it would have a positive impact, they immediately changed it and promised to discuss it at a later date. And we would have, if v4liance hadn't left.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What's the point of having a viewpoint if all you can do with it is troll? There is no benefit gained by giving up, which is all you seem to be suggesting. Also, circumstances in the game are quite different than when that viewpoint first surfaced. If you don't believe the in-game climate has changed enough to be relevant, you're entitled to that opinion. But we know the facts. We are simply continuing on in spite of them, because we disagree that there's no chance of success. Given that, what practical purpose does your viewpoint serve in this context?

"No chance" is a straw man you made up to justify your crusade -- I haven't suggested you stand no chance, but that you stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting your way just like the others have. I'm not telling you how to conduct yourself, I'm merely voicing an opinion and stating how things are, although I see you clearly have trouble with people who don't agree with you and due to this wish them to exit a discussion you don't want dissent on.

The conditions aren't any different whatsoever, except with the circumstances that the same opinions espoused about killing hypers, or changing FF entirely have achieved nothing. At one point PWI disabled hypers in FF but they changed it back because it accomplished nothing. People are always going to find the easiest route to the most (or in this case, easiest/fastest way to level), if those who develop and are in charge of development over PWI cared about the results of it, they'd have changed it almost 4 years ago. As time goes on, that is not a further testament to your argument, it's a further testament to the fact that nothing will change. You've been complaining for years and remind me how many of your suggestions have been implemented ever since.

You're free to waste your own time on such a crusade, but what's entertaining to me is how awful you are at dealing with disagreement.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

But advertising is something PWE can do for it all it's games, not just PWI. PWI didn't win any award, lol. It's why I didn't name it. This particular game though, could just put on it's website "award winning," it might not mean much in Chinas as far as advertising is concerned. But it does mean something to western audiences, which is who this game is advertised towards. Not talking about perception when I speaking of ads. I'm saying western audiences care about such things as what game won game of the year, and will be more likely to pick it up. It's a failure to advertise if they don't take advantage of winning such an award because it would probably translate to more sales.

As for suggestions, the Nirvana stage 3 gear was also added on a suggestion. Not a bug fix. Not only that but it was developed specially for us and released here first. That was based on a suggestion the majority of the player base supported. It's happened before, there is no reason why we can't post and ask for it to happen again. There is nothing fruitless about it. If nothing else, at least we can say it tried. One huge thing that has is different from now and then, is that many of the people support the change for a reason that PWE can monetize, which is attracting and retaining more new customers some of whom will undoubtedly pay money. Not because of a perception about the people who use the instance, although that is undeniably part of the reason people do not like FF.

Adding gear has been right in the path of what has happened in PWI since it began regardless of suggestions. I suppose in the same context players can ask for new fash or new cash shop items and when they get it, they can feel good and pretend that PWE listened to them. As for "many", that is a made-up term. Given the countless players that use hyper+plvl'd FF to get to endgame, by practice, which is as obvious as day, that flies in the face of this blown-up support you allegedly have, which is nothing more than a couple people posting on a forum who may or may not even play.

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

APS has been aggressively less effective, NV3, INI edits. All suggestions, two of which involved developing new content, that was made just because the players complained. They didn't revert FF because it didn't work, they reverted FF because it was undone by accident. They didn't even wait to see if it would have a positive impact, they immediately changed it and promised to discuss it at a later date. And we would have, if v4liance hadn't left.

It didn't change powerlevels at all.

And as for APS being supposedly less effective.. sure as hell not in PVE. With an exception to modifications to SOT BH boss, making certain bosses like Sanzi more resistant to APS, or making caster Nirvana, this was a given to cater to the player base that wasn't a melee class. It wasn't a substantial change to the game. APS people are still the primary farmers and still in most cases make more coin than anyone else -- they also kill bosses much faster than before even with that supposed APS nerf because weapons are that much stronger (offsetting the APS nerf easily).

Much like before there are still plenty of ways for casters to make coin, but PVE-wise APS is by a LONG shot still king. The only place APS is somewhat useless is PVP and it was predicted as PWI repeatedly "balanced" classes which swings the pendulum of "OP".

opkossy

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And as for APS being supposedly less effective.. sure as hell not in PVE.

Treasure Maps. Last bosses on them all bramble.
Revamp to CoA.
Revamp on tigers.
I could get more specific about how with each new release and update things are getting designed more and more to have a APS focused gearset as either less beneficial, or something that would flat out get you killed.


There are several things you've said I disagree with and have chosen to stay out of. However you really can't make most of your current claims if you play the game actively at all and pay even the slightest bit of attention. This is merely an example of such.

ovenusarmanio

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Adding gear has been right in the path of what has happened in PWI since it began regardless of suggestions. I suppose in the same context players can ask for new fash or new cash shop items and when they get it, they can feel good and pretend that PWE listened to them. As for "many", that is a made-up term. Given the countless players that use hyper+plvl'd FF to get to endgame, by practice, which is as obvious as day, that flies in the face of this blown-up support you allegedly have, which is nothing more than a couple people posting on a forum who may or may not even play.

Except the company specifically announced that it was because of our suggestions, gave us the content before even China's servers, and changed aspects of it for other versions. Such as the different r999 sets. OR can nothing they do count as implementing a suggestion in your eyes, even when they officially flat out state it and give it as an official explanation for it's release.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It didn't change powerlevels at all.

And as for APS being supposedly less effective.. sure as hell not in PVE. With an exception to modifications to SOT BH boss, making certain bosses like Sanzi more resistant to APS, or making caster Nirvana, this was a given to cater to the player base that wasn't a melee class. It wasn't a substantial change to the game. APS people are still the primary farmers and still in most cases make more coin than anyone else -- they also kill bosses much faster than before even with that supposed APS nerf because weapons are that much stronger (offsetting the APS nerf easily).

Much like before there are still plenty of ways for casters to make coin, but PVE-wise APS is by a LONG shot still king. The only place APS is somewhat useless is PVP and it was predicted as PWI repeatedly "balanced" classes which swings the pendulum of "OP".

It did make low level content more active though, which was precisely the reason people wanted the change. It is the reason this discussion has gained such new life. So yeah, it did change things.

BH bosses were buffed, caster nirvana was added, and then nirvana was killed off completely. In PVP, it's not as good. IT had an accuracy nerf. More recently the COA bosses have been made anti aps. Purify proc was made easier to get and buffed. Cancel channeling was nerfed. All of these were meant to make APS less effective, without killing it outright so that people can still use it on farming alts. And I would not be surprised if we hadn't see the last of the anti aps buffing. Nevertheless, it was a case of the develops saying they had heard player concerns, and would be looking into ways to make it less effective. IT was announced as a response to a player suggestion, even if that was on the Chinese end. You cant change that just because it doesn't suit your arguments. The APS less effectiveness, and the Nirvana Stage 3 gear, are both results of player suggestions getting pushed. If it happened once, it can happen again. I'm not saying it is going to happen. I'm saying it is worth discussing because there is a small chance it could happen because it already has before. Like I said, having a defeatist attitude and not ever stepping up to bat guarantees you will never hit that baseball. You might not hit it even if you go up to bat, you could strike out gloriously. But there is at least worth in the trying, to the people who do. And failure is guaranteed if you do nothing, at least you have some kind of chance if you are proactive.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

OPKossy wrote: »

Treasure Maps. Last bosses on them all bramble.
Revamp to CoA.
Revamp on tigers.
I could get more specific about how with each new release and update things are getting designed more and more to have a APS focused gearset as either less beneficial, or something that would flat out get you killed.


There are several things you've said I disagree with and have chosen to stay out of. However you really can't make most of your current claims if you play the game actively at all and pay even the slightest bit of attention. This is merely an example of such.

High level treasure bosses have always brambled.

Tigers tend to be won in HT by ranged classes because melee has a hard time running up to aps mobs before the tigers.

You can make claims all you like about how I supposedly am active or not, but your argument is awful.

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Except the company specifically announced that it was because of our suggestions, gave us the content before even China's servers, and changed aspects of it for other versions. Such as the different r999 sets. OR can nothing they do count as implementing a suggestion in your eyes, even when they officially flat out state it and give it as an official explanation for it's release.

It did make low level content more active though, which was precisely the reason people wanted the change. It is the reason this discussion has gained such new life. So yeah, it did change things.

BH bosses were buffed, caster nirvana was added, and then nirvana was killed off completely. In PVP, it's not as good. IT had an accuracy nerf. More recently the COA bosses have been made anti aps. Purify proc was made easier to get and buffed. Cancel channeling was nerfed. All of these were meant to make APS less effective, without killing it outright so that people can still use it on farming alts. And I would not be surprised if we hadn't see the last of the anti aps buffing. Nevertheless, it was a case of the develops saying they had heard player concerns, and would be looking into ways to make it less effective. IT was announced as a response to a player suggestion, even if that was on the Chinese end. You cant change that just because it doesn't suit your arguments. The APS less effectiveness, and the Nirvana Stage 3 gear, are both results of player suggestions getting pushed. If it happened once, it can happen again. I'm not saying it is going to happen. I'm saying it is worth discussing because there is a small chance it could happen because it already has before.

Attempts at nerfing APS has been done since it first surfaced, which culminated in the release of Caster Nirvana. That's simply balancing. That's not in the realm of making suggestions that completely blows up the way people play the game. Try to stay on course (you're floundering around like someone who is desperate for "win" material instead of standing behind the topic's premise), the intimation here is that people will magically go back to questing, the population will return, and new players will suddenly stick around more if hypers are unable to be used by lower levels or prevented from entering FF at all before a certain level. And the rationale is, "well they've made changes", without much understanding (or deliberate obfuscation) of the context behind those changes.

The population that plays clearly does not want to level the slow way (they have the option of both), especially given they're mostly alts of higher level players, forcing them to level their alts the way we leveled our toons 4-5 years ago is not going to work, they will not level their alts, they will be stuck now with their current toons, get bored as people usually do, and leave. Those who are new and not an alt of a higher level will notice no one else is questing, and no way to get high level like 90%+ of the population, and leave. The only people this change caters to are an extreme few who, in their nostalgia, enjoyed the way they leveled and want to make things as it were in 2008/2009. Doesn't work like that. It's a pie in the sky magic bullet, and rejection of this as a viable solution is inevitable.. even more embarrassing that it's actually defended by moderators.

ovenusarmanio

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Attempts at nerfing APS has been done since it first surfaced, which culminated in the release of Caster Nirvana. That's simply balancing. That's not in the realm of making suggestions that completely blows up the way people play the game. Try to stay on course (you're floundering around like someone who is desperate for "win" material instead of standing behind the topic's premise), the intimation here is that people will magically go back to questing, the population will return, and new players will suddenly stick around more if hypers are unable to be used by lower levels or prevented from entering FF at all before a certain level. And the rationale is, "well they've made changes", without much understanding (or deliberate obfuscation) of the context behind those changes.

The population that plays clearly does not want to level the slow way (they have the option of both), especially given they're mostly alts of higher level players, forcing them to level their alts the way we leveled our toons 4-5 years ago is not going to work, they will not level their alts, they will be stuck now with their current toons, get bored as people usually do, and leave. The only people this change caters to are an extreme few who, in their nostalgia, enjoyed the way they leveled and want to make things as it were in 2008/2009. Doesn't work like that.

They specifically said we have heard your suggestions, and have released this as a result. You can't get more clear than that on whether or not content was introduced because of player complaints. That's really all there is to it. You can claim it wont happen all you want. But facts are fact, PWE does listen to us from time to time. And like I said, there is value in trying to the people who try.

It is not an intimation, it has already happened. People went back to doing low level content when hypers were turned off here. They do the low level content on other versions of the game, and in fact I distinctly remember one of the versions used to also allow hypers before the goon glitch. Then they stopped letting people use it, and it didn't hurt them, they are still around. Once again, I cannot name it. But this has been done already in other versions, it has been done already here. The effects we are describing have happened. And it is not surprising, it is human nature.

If a > b, then people will chose a. You want people to choose b, you gotta make it so that a < b. They tried adding to the b side of the equation, it did not work. It makes sense to now try subtracting from the a. They don't even allow hypers in FF in China for this reason, they don't want an empty game. This was a US decision that did not work.

Nobody is asking them to go back to 4-5 years ago. The quests have already been changed, you can get to 70 in 2 days not 4 months. Sick of people trying to assign motivations to people they do not know, when the motivation has been put in black and white. This change caters to the new players, who need some catering to if this game is going to survive. Not everything can be for the endgame players. You can't survive as a business on old players alone, that is just fact.

Asone - Raging Tide

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Attempts at nerfing APS has been done since it first surfaced, which culminated in the release of Caster Nirvana. That's simply balancing. That's not in the realm of making suggestions that completely blows up the way people play the game. Try to stay on course (you're floundering around like someone who is desperate for "win" material instead of standing behind the topic's premise), the intimation here is that people will magically go back to questing, the population will return, and new players will suddenly stick around more if hypers are unable to be used by lower levels or prevented from entering FF at all before a certain level. And the rationale is, "well they've made changes", without much understanding (or deliberate obfuscation) of the context behind those changes.

The population that plays clearly does not want to level the slow way (they have the option of both), especially given they're mostly alts of higher level players, forcing them to level their alts the way we leveled our toons 4-5 years ago is not going to work, they will not level their alts, they will be stuck now with their current toons, get bored as people usually do, and leave. The only people this change caters to are an extreme few who, in their nostalgia, enjoyed the way they leveled and want to make things as it were in 2008/2009. Doesn't work like that.

Invalid. You can make an argument on how it would drive away players that power level their alts, but tell me something. What happens when new players, as few new as we get, pick up the power leveling from old players just leveling alts but use this method as a brand new player in years to come? Oh wait, never mind, that damage is already happening.

And please, do provide me numbers for players that say they do not want to level the slow way. All the FC polls have said otherwise. You can tell me that thread polls don't matter, but please, do spread the word to people that don't use the forums, have them say their piece and prove me wrong on this population you speak of. I also make another point on how there is hardly any slow leveling anymore with all the new ways to level seriously high in at least a week or less. Years of added content don't just apply to FC anymore. Were they used much? Hardly, because of FC and the insane way it has been used below the level limits it was not intended for.

I have tested toons with all the methods for leveling, PV, BH, questing (yes they HAVE been updated for more exp), crazy stone, ect. I got to level 76 in 3 days. Now that the new content with the daily check in has been added I am now retesting since this adds a good deal of daily exp.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Asone - Raging Tide wrote: »

Invalid. You can make an argument on how it would drive away players that power level their alts, but tell me something. What happens when new players, as few new as we get, pick up the power leveling from old players just leveling alts but use this method as a brand new player in years to come? Oh wait, never mind, that damage is already happening.

And please, do provide me numbers for players that say they do not want to level the slow way. All the FC polls have said otherwise. You can tell me that thread polls don't matter, but please, do spread the word to people that don't use the forums, have them say their piece and prove me wrong on this population you speak of. I also make another point on how there is hardly any slow leveling anymore with all the new ways to level seriously high in at least a week or less. Years of added content don't just apply to FC anymore. Were they used much? Hardly, because of FC and the insane way it has been used below the level limits it was not intended for.

I have tested toons with all the methods for leveling, PV, BH, questing (yes they HAVE been updated for more exp), crazy stone, ect. I got to level 76 in 5 days. Now that the new content with the daily check in has been added I am now retesting since this adds a good deal of daily exp.

Invalid yet you make the same points I do.. that power leveling would occur anyways without hypered FF, including giving examples of how easy it is to level already. You just helped the case as to why people should probably bark up another tree -- your assistance was much appreciated.

The FF polls are irrelevant because only a fraction of players visit the forums (mostly because they have problems, or because they're malcontents) never mind vote on them, and given that people can vote with their alts, polls are nothing to take seriously here.

As for the first paragraph, that's why I said on the points related to this issue do nothing. The supposed "damage" is already done, the population is where it's at already, most of them are high levels, there are hardly ever any low level BH/quests squads unless accompanied by a higher level, the achievement gap between low and high level players is enormous, the gap between r9s3 and everyone else is enormous as well.

You can't just suddenly change this game into what it was 2008/2009 after years of turning it into what it is today. That's the kind of risk that is business unfriendly and better for the type of servers we can't discuss here.

Brillance - Raging Tide

What happens if you nerf it, and people stop leveling alts in any way?

Everyone knows that people who WANT to quest and do nothing but quest are a minority in any MMO, and quite honestly, any business these days would be quite foolish to limit the options people have when playing a game.

Who are all the TW faction leaders that want their members to level by questing? Who are these noble souls that at any cost, including losing faction members, that would prefer that?

Who are the completely brain dead players that come into a game, and dont want to know nothing but how to level as fast a possible? Most new players DO want to level, but not necessarily by questing.

How many people on the planet have never played Everquest, and find the concept of constantly questing a complete turn off? (I know of at least 1. b:chuckle)

Farg it! Doeet!

And when even less people show up on the servers than currently do each weekend, we will know who to blame for it. Yes, it will be the one's who insisted on making changes thinking they are going to force someone to do something.

Maybe ya'll should consider a position in "Corrections, Police Force, Military Service". Heck, if you find a position open on a little island somewhere, could even try for Dictator.

I have an idea! How about if people are not using content your liking - ADVERTIZE!?

If you are advertising and people still arent using your content, maybe the content generally is not appealing, and needs to be changed?

But, no. I am just a stupid woman, and only have stupid ideas.

Let's take an option away from an already dying player base. I mean what better time, right?

f:naughty

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear

FF is how I learn to play my classes. Endless grinding doesn't teach me **** about team work. All it teaches is how to Kill Steal when people refuse to join parties IE just like the new Title quest hing. It was annoying getting the mob counts that first day... people set up their AoEs and refuse Party requests. No thanks I much prefer a team setting. I think I would like to keep FF with Hypers. I enjoy testing myself testing my skills learning to work with others as well as getting something out of it. It's fun and its a great way to prepare for end-game.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Invalid yet you make the same points I do.. that power leveling would occur anyways without hypered FF, including giving examples of how easy it is to level already. You just helped the case as to why people should probably bark up another tree -- your assistance was much appreciated.

The FF polls are irrelevant because only a fraction of players visit the forums (mostly because they have problems, or because they're malcontents) never mind vote on them, and given that people can vote with their alts, polls are nothing to take seriously here.

As for the first paragraph, that's why I said on the points related to this issue do nothing. The supposed "damage" is already done, the population is where it's at already, most of them are high levels, there are hardly ever any low level BH/quests squads unless accompanied by a higher level, the achievement gap between low and high level players is enormous, the gap between r9s3 and everyone else is enormous as well.

So basically you're saying that even if a change happened, it wouldn't affect the current population at all.
If you stop and consider that, the current population is in a steady decline. So you would leave it as is, shrug off an attempt at improvement, and watch PWE's flagship title dry up and blow away.

Fair enough. It's your opinion. You're also the minority.b:bye

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You can't just suddenly change this game into what it was 2008/2009 after years of turning it into what it is today. That's the kind of risk that is business unfriendly and better for the type of servers we can't discuss here.

And once again with erroneous exaggerations. This isn't something that will completely change the face of the game. It's not a suggestion to completely revert back to version 1.3.4, or even anything remotely close to that.

If that's what you think about this change that has been suggested, you seriously need to get outside into reality more.

(besides, things smell better when your head isn't shoved up your ***.)

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

What happens if you nerf it, and people stop leveling alts in any way?

Everyone knows that people who WANT to quest and do nothing but quest are a minority in any MMO, and quite honestly, any business these days would be quite foolish to limit the options people have when playing a game.

Who are all the TW faction leaders that want their members to level by questing? Who are these noble souls that at any cost, including losing faction members, that would prefer that?

Who are the completely brain dead players that come into a game, and dont want to know nothing but how to level as fast a possible? Most new players DO want to level, but not necessarily by questing.

How many people on the planet have never played Everquest, and find the concept of constantly questing a complete turn off? (I know of at least 1. b:chuckle)

Farg it! Doeet!

And when even less people show up on the servers than currently do each weekend, we will know who to blame for it. Yes, it will be the one's who insisted on making changes thinking they are going to force someone to do something.

Maybe ya'll should consider a position in "Corrections, Police Force, Military Service". Heck, if you find a position open on a little island somewhere, could even try for Dictator.

I have an idea! How about if people are not using content your liking - ADVERTIZE!?

If you are advertising and people still arent using your content, maybe the content generally is not appealing, and needs to be changed?

But, no. I am just a stupid woman, and only have stupid ideas.

Let's take an option away from an already dying player base. I mean what better time, right?

f:naughty

Well put.

What mainly keeps/brings people is content. Developers already shot PWI in the foot by alienating people from most of it's content and making it easier to bypass it.

So what's kept people around in 2013 is new content and the ability to quickly level and experience that new content. The frenzy of people questing for this title **** and attaining that free 79/100 skill shows how effective content is. PWE is making due with it's bad and short term decisions, and the only way to look is at the present and forward, not backwards.

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

So basically you're saying that even if a change happened, it wouldn't affect the current population at all.
If you stop and consider that, the current population is in a steady decline. So you would leave it as is, shrug off an attempt at improvement, and watch PWE's flagship title dry up and blow away.

Fair enough. It's your opinion. You're also the minority.b:bye

And once again with erroneous exaggerations. This isn't something that will completely change the face of the game. It's not a suggestion to completely revert back to version 1.3.4, or even anything remotely close to that.

If that's what you think about this change that has been suggested, you seriously need to get outside into reality more.

(besides, things smell better when your head isn't shoved up your ***.)

No, I wouldn't have implemented things the way it happened in PWI. Having worked in the F2P MMO industry, I had an issue back in 2009 when PWI introduced gear into the cash shop.. that was a big industry no-no.

I'm saying do nothing to change things now, given it's not me who runs the friggen game. There is already a balancing act being implemented, there is still new content. PWI was clearly a short term project, so given what PWI is, and not what I wanted it to be, it's simply being realistic.. which clearly went well over your head.

Game populations always decline, around 2009 marked PWI's peak, and ever since then it's been in a state of decline. You're acting as if it hasn't been. All games go through this, some people like yourself just have trouble accepting things for what they are.

Nariin - Dreamweaver

GingerSprite - Sanctuary wrote: »

I see someone else that is unable to read.b:chuckle

I read, but that poll is same as this one, plus "no" option and minus "both" options.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Nariin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I read, but that poll is same as this one, plus "no" option and minus "both" options.

This poll is for the club of people who only are agreeable to the inane solutions presented.

Which is funny when people cite polls like this as to why it's what the populace wants. b:chuckle.. rather than, oh, I don't know, how the populace actually plays? This is tough.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear wrote: »

FF is how I learn to play my classes. Endless grinding doesn't teach me **** about team work. All it teaches is how to Kill Steal when people refuse to join parties IE just like the new Title quest hing. It was annoying getting the mob counts that first day... people set up their AoEs and refuse Party requests. No thanks I much prefer a team setting. I think I would like to keep FF with Hypers. I enjoy testing myself testing my skills learning to work with others as well as getting something out of it. It's fun and its a great way to prepare for end-game.

I would love to hear about how killing heads in FF teaches you how to play your class.

I would also love to hear about standard squads doing FF runs prior to the 70's.

Squad play at-level in the other forgotten dungeons is the designed method to learn your class and how it works in a team environment with other classes.

Regular quests don't have to be solo, and back when the areas were actually populated, you were only out there solo questing if you did it by choice.

If you have a problem questing and someone is KSing, try to join them. If not, there's a damn good change you have 10+ other quests at that level you can be doing, and can go back to that when the moron has left the area.

Sure FF can teach you how to play your class, when you play it at the level the instance was intended for, with a normal squad group.
It teaches you absolutely nothing when you just kill heads, or have some exceptionally geared/skilled/leveled character wipe the instance clean for you.

So based on that argument, this threads suggestion wouldn't affect you at all.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

I would love to hear about how killing heads in FF teaches you how to play your class.

Ah yes, the entirety of FF is killing heads.

The wisdom of a straw man.

Regular quests don't have to be solo, and back when the areas were actually populated, you were only out there solo questing if you did it by choice.

When PWI was far more populated high levels would run you through dungeons often times, few people actually did these dungeons at level with an exception to when the game didn't have high levels. Selective memory?

Even when players of that instance's intended level did them, they were often terrible and didn't learn much until around the level that people started doing FF (75-85).

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver

everyone says FC is the problem. but before FC for newbies became popular, i remember a lot of ppl spamming oracles. some guys even lvled to 90 that way. whats the difference?

this game is old. a lot of new mmos coming out. why not let the new players the choice to enjoy low content or to get fast to max lvl to do end game things?

some other mmo that came out last year, offer the possibilty to enter some "instance" where you are lvl max, with max gears, to enjoy pvp even the 1st day you start the game

pwi wont have that many new players, if some prefer lvl fast, let them. will make a compensation for high lvl players quiting. and those who want to enjoy low lvl content still can

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

everyone says FC is the problem. but before FC for newbies became popular, i remember a lot of ppl spamming oracles. some guys even lvled to 90 that way. whats the difference?

this game is old. a lot of new mmos coming out. why not let the new players the choice to enjoy low content or to get fast to max lvl to do end game things?

some other mmo that came out last year, offer the possibilty to enter some "instance" where you are lvl max, with max gears, to enjoy pvp even the 1st day you start the game

pwi wont have that many new players, if some prefer lvl fast, let them. will make a compensation for high lvl players quiting. and those who want to enjoy low lvl content still can

But this realistic approach is in complete contrast to the idealistic one that only a very small handful actually care about.

I want my old PWI back!

ovenusarmanio

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ah yes, the entirety of FF is killing heads.

The wisdom of a straw man.).

I'd love to know what lower level than 70 squads you've been running that do the entirety of FF. Again level 75+ gameplay would not change. You can't base it on what people are doing, because people are doing lowbie BHs for example, even if the want to do them, because it isn't possible for them to get a squad together. They can grab a couple of friends, but where does the rest of that squad come form? The randoms are in FF. And this is the poll --> http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1574841 It has a much higher than average turn out because of the advertisement to use the poll the gms did, and the fact that a ton of people took to the forum to express their opinion on the change. It is about as close to accurate as we can get....


You're the one using strawmen with your claims that nobody wants to go back to 2009. Nobody is arguing that here. Making it so you can't enter FF til 75 won't magically reverse all the other changes that game has underwent. They killed nirvana too, and changed the primary farming for coin method for many people from doing instances to pvp. And the game survived. Big changes can happen and the game can adapt to them.

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide

Well with JanusZeal's logic that only new content for endgame is what everyone wants, maybe I should really consider quitting this time. As I've said before I like the meandering path to endgame in MMOs, and, FC, and a few other bad moves have put this game on life support, where meandering with others is no longer viable. In my opinion, FC is currently the biggest culprit. No sense in playing if the low and mid level content is a wasteland and the only bright spot in PWI is endgame. That's just not my style. I've never been one to care if it took a long time to get to high levels, but, not something i enjoy doing alone in the game. It is in fact a MMORPG, well actually PWI is a MORPG. It's no longer massive.

Apparently if a dam has sprung a leak, and the leak gets worse, why bother fixing it? Eventually the dam will bust anyway.

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

I would love to hear about how killing heads in FF teaches you how to play your class.

I would also love to hear about standard squads doing FF runs prior to the 70's.

Squad play at-level in the other forgotten dungeons is the designed method to learn your class and how it works in a team environment with other classes.

Regular quests don't have to be solo, and back when the areas were actually populated, you were only out there solo questing if you did it by choice.

If you have a problem questing and someone is KSing, try to join them. If not, there's a damn good change you have 10+ other quests at that level you can be doing, and can go back to that when the moron has left the area.

Sure FF can teach you how to play your class, when you play it at the level the instance was intended for, with a normal squad group.
It teaches you absolutely nothing when you just kill heads, or have some exceptionally geared/skilled/leveled character wipe the instance clean for you.

So based on that argument, this threads suggestion wouldn't affect you at all.

Heads is the end part of the dungeon... have you ever been in there? IF you do the whole dungeon there are 10 bosses in total and several long hallways of mobs with different abilities. Learning how to work with your team to keep everyone safe and learning all of the tricks the bosses have. How to cancel certain skills, how to remove yourself from dangerous and often deadly situations. As a healer how to take care of your party when things like bubble happen. Every boss in FF has some trick to it that other bosses (most especially at higher level content) have. It is an all-in-one type deal to learning the ins and outs of playing the game.

I never once mentioned anything about Pre-70 anywhere in my post. Do not put words into my mouth, my friend.

I played the game from beta-forward, and I remember when the game's areas were populated. I remember being refused party requests because of the guild I was in. I remember people KSing me on purpose making it take hours to do quests. I remember the positive fun times as well (they were few and far between as I find questing a boring drone and not at all fun), but solo-questing NEVER taught me team work. Never. Because, 99% of the time it doesn't require any skill other than mashing buttons to kill a mob dead. Anyone can kill a mob, it's another level to understand the intricacies of your characters skills and abilities.

I also do At-level BH's for learning team play and new characters. I study how other people play and offer my own advice if people are willing to listen as I am something of a veteran player and know most classes at this point.

The point I am trying it make is I played both sides of the fence here and for once in a game I get rewarded for being a good player, not just a Tap 1 skill over and over, ttab or 2 skill. I do not want it taken away from me for simple nostalgia.

All games suffer player-losses. My issues with PWI and how it handles itself has nothing to do with FC at all. In fact, there was more more egregious mistakes that sadly cannot be rectified that I believe are killing this game... Gear in the Cash Shop.

IMO, the journey isn't all that fun when End-game is where all the content is. And I'm not talking about questing. The whole point of this game (IMO) is to get to that 100+ Level threshold and spend your time farming gear of farming money. That's the reason I play.