Reviving The Game

WannaBM - Archosaur

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

Dude, read my first post.

Just to reiterate it once more...

You guys already had your vote. That's over with. You lost.

Click here to see the results.

That discussion was had. It's done. It's over. We've moved on. Wait, that's just like real life. b:shocked

You missed it because you weren't around, or you didn't read the forums then.....
Not my fault.

Unfortunately i did not miss that abomination of a debate, i was around.

And my point stands regardless of that. STOP ****** BOTHERING ABOUT WHAT OTHER PEOPLE DO.
Look at humanity. people are killing eachother because they have the wrong religion. War on drugs. War on FC.
Stop it. Live your own live and let other people live theirs !!!!
bothering and limiting others in their options will not revive your game. Just as closing all the shops on sunday wont revive your religion.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Unfortunately i did not miss that abomination of a debate, i was around.

And my point stands regardless of that. STOP ****** BOTHERING ABOUT WHAT OTHER PEOPLE DO.
Look at humanity. people are killing eachother because they have the wrong religion. War on drugs. War on FC.
Stop it. Live your own live and let other people live theirs !!!!
bothering and limiting others in their options will not revive your game. Just as closing all the shops on sunday wont revive your religion.

So I suppose you're in also favor of unchecked industrial pollution, policitcal corruption, and oh, let's say... mass murder? Why not? Stop restricting what other people do, you horrible demon, you!

It insults everyone's intelligence when you condense such a big issue like this into a simple "STOP KILLING MAH FUNZ" line. Your powerleveling is killing our game. And that means I have a right to take issue with you on it. Just like if I lived in a coastal town where the water is constantly being polluted by unregulated industry, I have a right to complain about that too. Would you drag us all down with you just to save your broken leveling method that should never have been possible in the first place?

Libertarian arguments are perfect and glorious, until they trip over someone else's libertarian argument. "Live and let live" goes both ways, my friend. At the moment... you're not letting anyone live.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Unfortunately i did not miss that abomination of a debate, i was around.

And my point stands regardless of that. STOP ****** BOTHERING ABOUT WHAT OTHER PEOPLE DO.
Look at humanity. people are killing eachother because they have the wrong religion. War on drugs. War on FC.
Stop it. Live your own live and let other people live theirs !!!!
bothering and limiting others in their options will not revive your game. Just as closing all the shops on sunday wont revive your religion.

Okay first ROFL at comparing this to war and religion/racism/ect.

Second, it's not limiting the options very much. You would know that if you weren't so busy being simpleminded.

The idea is to expand the user's into the already existing parts of the game.

Here's a real life reference for you...
Detroit.
Blight.
How do you rebuild that? You clean it up and you get people to move back in.
Lower level areas have already been rebuilt. It needs to be repopulated. This is simply a step in that direction.

Take it a step further, Detroit is in a bad place because of how severely it was mismanaged for years. This game and PWE's management isn't much different. This "movement" that I have started is based entirely on the majority opinion of the consumers, and is directly focused at creating a change to improve the gameplay experience so that we can attract new players and keep them.

How's that for a real life comparison? b:thanks

It's not a war against FCC. I like FCC. LIke everything else, FCC has it's place. What FCC is not, and was never supposed to be, was a place for characters under level 75.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Actually, the bane of humanity would be ignorance. :P As anyone who whines about the poll options without reading this thread proves quite effectively.

When you talk about "people bothering what other people do..." well there's a word for that, too. It's called "society." Inconvenient, isn't it? But I think most of humanity agrees that it's generally a good thing. :P

It is not called society. Yes your government likes you to think it is normal that they control everything you do. Some goverments a little more than others. You have the communists who control a lot. You have sharia based governments who control a lot. Fortunately most western governments control a little less.

But it still anoys the hell out of me every time they discuss about things like should shops be alowed to be opened on sundays ? Should muslims be alowed to wear a cloth on their head ? Should you be alowed to grow and smoke your own canabis plants ? Should you be alowed to build your own double water instalation in your own house ? (using rainwater for flushing toilets etc)
Im a libertarian and it makes my blood boil when people keep trying to control eachother like that.

Seeing a bunch of players who have been playing a game for way too many hours (myself included) getting bored with it and blaming it on those who play differently makes my blood boil for the same reasons.

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Unfortunately i did not miss that abomination of a debate, i was around.

And my point stands regardless of that. STOP ****** BOTHERING ABOUT WHAT OTHER PEOPLE DO.
Look at humanity. people are killing eachother because they have the wrong religion. War on drugs. War on FC.
Stop it. Live your own live and let other people live theirs !!!!
bothering and limiting others in their options will not revive your game. Just as closing all the shops on sunday wont revive your religion.

Why bring religion into this? You normally argue better than that.

But, I will say this again. I agree about a level restriction in FC. FC is not meant for low levels. You can't open it below level 75 so why allow anyone under level 75?

Is it so bad to try getting an expansive world more utilized? As stated, the new quest chains, Questmaster, fruit, freebies, make it so easy to level to 75 as it is. Even the most casual or time constrained player can do it in a couple of weeks. I would say 85% or more of those adamant about leaving FC as is, are those that sell FC over and over. Maybe not on the characters the post with on the forum, but a different character. Want to buy or sell heads room, do it for characters level 75+

Someone said leave it as is because endgame and TW and NW are "where its at"

If that is the case then the game is definitely doomed. That, plus the 100+ BHs are such a minuscule amount of what's available in the game. Most of those that complain about. people wanting to level restrict FC have, I'm guessing have barely scratched the surface of anything pre level 90.

Let me finish by saying a few things. If FC is left as it is, so be it. It will just make the time pulling the plug on this game that much faster, when endgame gets monotonously boring, which for me it has, and I am one of those that DO NOT FC until after level 75, and even then its rare. I enjoy questing with others, and I mean more than just FC. I enjoy the 19 to 89 BHs. I enjoy the quest lines that you can do with others. But, therein lies the problem for anyone new. Most aren't done, or if they are its a pain to find others. It's all Fcfcfcfcfcfcfc.

If it remains like that, then I know a lot of people who are bored out of their minds with endgame, that are on the verge of quitting, myself included. Most of whom, like many on this thread, didn't FC until 75+

WannaBM - Archosaur

PS i havent been in FC before lvl 75 myself either.

I just cant stand the bull**** over it. You are bored at lvl 100+ yes, thats logical. That happens when you play a game dayly for a long time. restricting FC aint gonna change a damn thing about it so leave others to do what they want to do.

bluestuffzzz

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

It is not called society. Yes your government likes you to think it is normal that they control everything you do. Some goverments a little more than others. You have the communists who control a lot. You have sharia based governments who control a lot. Fortunately most western governments control a little less.

But it still anoys the hell out of me every time they discuss about things like should shops be alowed to be opened on sundays ? Should muslims be alowed to wear a cloth on their head ? Should you be alowed to grow and smoke your own canabis plants ? Should you be alowed to build your own double water instalation in your own house ? (using rainwater for flushing toilets etc)
Im a libertarian and it makes my blood boil when people keep trying to control eachother like that.

Seeing a bunch of players who have been playing a game for way too many hours (myself included) getting bored with it and blaming it on those who play differently makes my blood boil for the same reasons.

Wow, some of you guys are taking this way out of proportion and context. This thread has nothing to do with liberals, conservatives, religion, freedoms, drugs, and land. What the hell are you going on about, honestly? This is a video game message board, not your local community council where you live.

The reason people want FF for level 75+ players, is because that was the intended purpose by Wanmei. Even in PW-CN, you aren't allowed to hyper in FF. It's by-passing the game's content. Knowing this, Wanmei still keeps pushing low-level content, as to ward people to not hyper FF below level 75. I'm all for people wanting to be free as balls. But you know, when you are skipping the game's content and getting end-game so quickly - it causes the rest of the game, where that content was supposed to be, to become dead.

When working hard at a job, you don't get to skip to the top tier of management positions in a day. When getting paid, you don't get to skip to the end - retirement pay and benefits. When you go to college, you don't get your master's instantly. When you explore the world, you don't pull up Google Earth and view the world that way, then tell all your friends how you went on an adventure and journey across the globe. So, why is PWI any different? Because it's poorly managed, and PWE doesn't really care if the game caters to only end-game, as long as they receive a fat sum of cash.

Oddly enough, when enough people get bored and quit the game - all in part due to skipping levels 1-99, PWE will have less money coming in and be forced to merge and later close the servers. It's counter-active, really. But, we can't expect much coming from a company that has released statements on how each title of game they own should have a life-span of about 4 years maximum.

Eoria - Harshlands

I did level an alt cleric to 60 with no "twinking" beyond giving it 3.0 wings at level 50 and doing BHes for it (okay, more like I poked people to do them for me after BH29 'cause lazy to multi-client). I even went to 5x tourney with it one night (no one was in there but me, btw). It's kinda boring. Quest exp and gold have been upped majorly, yeah. But there's still not much point in doing them. They won't make me any better at a class (especially one I main). Only pvp will. And there's not many extra rewards for doing them.

Hell, y'know. Lets look at the two sets of quests I actually bother doing on all of my alts regardless of class: Goshiki questline and Morai questlines. Both give huge amounts of exp. Both give pretty good items (plat HP charm and refine aids for Goshiki and a good set of equipment for Morai). ****, they kinda missed an opportunity for a good set of quests by putting all of the Dreamchaser pack stuff in, well, that pack. They could have just made a questline to get all of it that spans from 1 to 47ish? I think?

The majority of the people raging in this thread will rage about some random **** regardless of whatever happens because they're convinced they know how to play the ******n game and others don't and then don't bother even attempting to teach those other people to become a better player because they believe they are above that.

Also, y'all realize that people would just bring level 1 chars into Eden or Lunar to plevel with hypers instead if they did this, right? Like, I'd be the first ****ing person to just go ahead and sell that **** day 1 of a level restriction on FC being enacted. No joke.

bluestuffzzz

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

I did level an alt cleric to 60 with no "twinking" beyond giving it 3.0 wings at level 50 and doing BHes for it (okay, more like I poked people to do them for me after BH29 'cause lazy to multi-client). I even went to 5x tourney with it one night (no one was in there but me, btw). It's kinda boring. Quest exp and gold have been upped majorly, yeah. But there's still not much point in doing them. They won't make me any better at a class (especially one I main). Only pvp will. And there's not many extra rewards for doing them.

Hell, y'know. Lets look at the two sets of quests I actually bother doing on all of my alts regardless of class: Goshiki questline and Morai questlines. Both give huge amounts of exp. Both give pretty good items (plat HP charm and refine aids for Goshiki and a good set of equipment for Morai). ****, they kinda missed an opportunity for a good set of quests by putting all of the Dreamchaser pack stuff in, well, that pack. They could have just made a questline to get all of it that spans from 1 to 47ish? I think?

The majority of the people raging in this thread will rage about some random **** regardless of whatever happens because they're convinced they know how to play the ******n game and others don't and then don't bother even attempting to teach those other people to become a better player because they believe they are above that.

Also, y'all realize that people would just bring level 1 chars into Eden or Lunar to plevel with hypers instead if they did this, right? Like, I'd be the first ****ing person to just go ahead and sell that **** day 1 of a level restriction on FC being enacted. No joke.

Quests nowadays do give a lot of exp, that's very true. I don't think people would go back to oracles or other instances - besides daily PV runs. I believe if FF was restricted to level 75+, players would do quests, BH more often, and focus on the majority of the game's content, which is below level 75.

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

PS i havent been in FC before lvl 75 myself either.

I just cant stand the bull**** over it. You are bored at lvl 100+ yes, thats logical. That happens when you play a game dayly for a long time. restricting FC aint gonna change a damn thing about it so leave others to do what they want to do.

You're on the Archosaur server? The server that was created years after the server I was on (Heavem's Tear). I've been playing since beta. I have one of every class 100+, and have r999 on two toons (+10), r8/3rd stage nirvana +10 on all of the rest.

Before hypering FF became possible, people did quests, oracles, and BH to level. Even further in the past, people did oracles, questing, zhenning/fishing. Even further in the past, people did questing and zhenning/fishing. When hypers couldn't be accessed a few months ago in FF, players were doing quests, BH, and PV to level.

What you're saying is wrong, but for the sake of arguement, let's pretend you're correct. By that logic, if FF was restricted then players would go inside instances where you could only obtain 1/20th the amount of EXP (FB instances, warsong, lunar, etc)? Why would they do such a thing? It would be more cost effective to stick with buying oracles, in comparison the the repair cost of hypering FB instances or Eden/Lunar, etc.

Also, by your logic - the majority of the game's content is not being by-passed by doing FF below level 75? So, all of those quests, instances, quest-chains, etc are non-existent? Let's be honest here. If that's your kind of logic, then you are absolutely nuts. A few screws loose? Why skip over the game's content? Sure it's all optional, but it's very obvious that the game has the content there for a reason, and most new players are skipping it. That results in a dead game, with everyone bored w/ the monotonous end-game content, which is only a small fraction of the rest of PWI's content.

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver

dumb idea. you want to repopulate the game, by making it "hard" to lvl. this game is old. FC wont change anything. longer it takes to get lvl 100, longer it takes to get gears. seeing how tis hard to get high lvl gears, players dont wanna spend years to reach that

better not change anything

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

It is not called society. Yes your government likes you to think it is normal that they control everything you do. Some governments a little more than others. You have the communists who control a lot. You have sharia based governments who control a lot. Fortunately most western governments control a little less.

But it still annoys the hell out of me every time they discuss about things like should shops be allowed to be opened on sundays ? Should muslims be allowed to wear a cloth on their head ? Should you be allowed to grow and smoke your own cannabis plants ? Should you be allowed to build your own double water installation in your own house ? (using rainwater for flushing toilets etc)
I'm a libertarian and it makes my blood boil when people keep trying to control each other like that.

Seeing a bunch of players who have been playing a game for way too many hours (myself included) getting bored with it and blaming it on those who play differently makes my blood boil for the same reasons.

Once again, you are comparing apples to oranges.

Also, it's not that we're high level players getting bored with the game. It's that we've been around a while and can see it's obvious decline. Given the history of the game, and the history of change in the community in our version when compared to others, it is quite obvious what the problem is.

It's not that we're bored.
It's not that we're blaming other people to play differently. (Although, you have to admit, the Hyper e-peen morons have not done anything to benefit the game aside from their ability to use credit cards.)

I literally almost lived in this game until about 9 months ago. It nearly ruined my life too. None of that, however, has anything to do with this petition for change. Personally, if they made these changes, and then added an instant 80/100 item in the boutique, I'd likely be one of the first in line to get it. I enjoy the current ability to take a toon to a reasonably high level in a short period of time simply using FCC and am guilty of doing to with characters that I created for test builds. (Though I do most of that on my own server now.)

This petition is because there is an obvious problem that is causing a decline in customer retention, and an even larger decline in the new-user population. (There are, of course, other factors like advertising and such to take into account, but you have to start somewhere.)

You continue to make meaningless accusations and ridiculous comparisons.
Click this link, read it with an open mind, and be educated. (Section 4 pertains to your lopsided arguments better.)

Afterwards, just leave this thread alone. If you're going to be a close minded hater that's just going to spout irrelevant nonsense, there's no reason for you to be here. Your discussion ended a long time ago. This thread is about change. It's about improving the overall population and the longevity of a game title we love. If you can't understand that, you don't belong here.
(Yes, I know, that last bit sounded really snooty and snobbish. That was not my intention.
It's not that I'm an elitist, or that we have this special "Kill FCC Club", it's just that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, and this horse (WanaMB) needs to be put to pasture.)

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

dumb idea. you want to repopulate the game, by making it "hard" to lvl. this game is old. FC wont change anything. longer it takes to get lvl 100, longer it takes to get gears. seeing how tis hard to get high lvl gears, players dont wanna spend years to reach that

better not change anything

It's obvious you haven't actually played the low levels recently, or actually read half the threads/posts on this. Go away.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

It is not called society. Yes your government likes you to think it is normal that they control everything you do. Some goverments a little more than others. You have the communists who control a lot. You have sharia based governments who control a lot. Fortunately most western governments control a little less.

But it still anoys the hell out of me every time they discuss about things like should shops be alowed to be opened on sundays ? Should muslims be alowed to wear a cloth on their head ? Should you be alowed to grow and smoke your own canabis plants ? Should you be alowed to build your own double water instalation in your own house ? (using rainwater for flushing toilets etc)
Im a libertarian and it makes my blood boil when people keep trying to control eachother like that.

Seeing a bunch of players who have been playing a game for way too many hours (myself included) getting bored with it and blaming it on those who play differently makes my blood boil for the same reasons.

Ohhhh boy, here we go. -_- H'okay. Let's try to make this a short one.

Nowhere in that post did I say "government." That was your extrapolation. Government is simply a facet of society, designed (for better or worse) to streamline society's opinions and consensuses through the medium of an authority. Be that a king, a representative legislature, what have you... the exact medium doesn't matter. The point is that people discuss things (hopefully civilly), reach a consensus, and then move on. This is a basic function of a society. Government is only the facilitator.

But the discussions can't go on forever. You'll always have people who sit on the fringe, stubbornly clinging to the dissenting opinion like it's their personal life support. But if those people insist on holding up the progress of the discussion, demanding we go back to square one which has already been decisively resolved, we're not going to indulge them forever. We're going to move on, and if they won't move on with us, they will be left out of the discussion.

If they're intent on continuing to contribute to the discussion, then they have to work within the accepted framework to stay relevant. Functionally speaking, that means changing their tactics. They've already lost the chance to win the main round, and they need to accept that. If they want to change anyone's mind at this point, they need to be patient and accept that they won't get what they want right away. Demanding what they want right now will just earn them the cold shoulder.

So if your blood is boiling? Deal with it. I've felt the same way for the last four years, watching this game go down the crapper with terrible broken update after terrible broken update. Anyone who's read my posts knows that I have my share of divisive opinions. But I still had to accept that I was in the minority for, say... not using APS builds or R9... and work within that framework to change minds. Standing outside the door screaming comparisons to religious bigotry was not going to help my case, and it doesn't do anything for you either, save for making you look like a spoiled child.

Do you think we're wrong? Is Frost powerleveling actually going to be the saving grace of PWI which propels us all to glorious longevity? Well, you have no chance in hell of convincing us of that, the way you're behaving right now.

...guess this wasn't meant to be a short one. Oh well. >_>

bluestuffzzz

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

dumb idea. you want to repopulate the game, by making it "hard" to lvl. this game is old. FC wont change anything. longer it takes to get lvl 100, longer it takes to get gears. seeing how tis hard to get high lvl gears, players dont wanna spend years to reach that

better not change anything

Obviously more would have to get done in order to repopulate the game. However, the big reason that it needs re-population in the first place, is players have used FF to bypass most of the game's content, and once they hit 100 - they did all the rest of the game's content... Which is almost nothing. They then quit. While they were doing this small amount of end-game content, the other areas of the game were dead.

If it's better to not change anything, then we must face the facts that this game will be closing shortly (our International version). Servers will have to be merged, but that won't fix the problem. If some of us don't stand up for what we believe is the right way to lure players back into the game, then there isn't much of a point in this game being here. As it stands, while it is an old game - the player base is decreased exponentially over the last few years. Other competing MMOs have lasted double the time of PWI, cost monthly amounts of cash, or restrict access unless you're a paid member, and they have millions of players.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Afterwards, just leave this thread alone. If you're going to be a close minded hater that's just going to spout irrelevant nonsense,

I will, but understand that you are no less close minded in your stance and what the majority believes is not always right (it actually seems to be the oposite in many cases). I try to enlighten you, to look into yourself and see that you are using FCC as a scapegoat for what you think is wrong in a game that you got bored of. You make it clear by so often repeating that most of the content is pre level 100 and post level 100 is not much.

People join on the bandwagon and soon it is a majority that believes it. Thats how the world works. People have a problem, you provide a scapegoat, and the majority will follow happilly. You can speak about close minded, but you refuse to see my point just as i refuse to see yours.

The majority is not always right.
The majority should not be able to control the minority if it is nothing that significantly affects them. (the problem of democracy)

In fact i think you are the close minded one if you cannot see what i am trying to explain and call it irrelevant.

What does destroy this game is making things possible and then removing that possibility. Players who got used to those possibilities will get pissed off and leave. This is true for FCC and it is also true for what they are currently doing to try and take down APS. If there is anything PWE is doing wrong imo, it is listening too much to the QQ comunity. Should they not have made 5 APS as OP as it is in the first place? -totally. Should they now change all the instances to make it worthless ? -terrible.
Should they have made FC lvl 75+ in the first place ? -totally. Should they limit it now ? -nope

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

dumb idea. you want to repopulate the game, by making it "hard" to lvl. this game is old. FC wont change anything. longer it takes to get lvl 100, longer it takes to get gears. seeing how tis hard to get high lvl gears, players dont wanna spend years to reach that

better not change anything

In the scope of MMOs, 5 years is really middle aged for most of the popular ones. However the popularity of PWI is dropping quickly for our international version. It shouldn't even be close to merged servers (European and PvP servers tend to be merged first when a game is heading towards the pulled plug, or facing the need for drastic change before its put on life support).

I don't think some of you get the meaning of this forum thread. I don't think anyone would have been against FC, and hypers had it been done in such a way that it didn't obliterate the playerbase and all content pre level 75. As others have said, wanmei actually enhanced the enjoyability, reward, xp, coin, for low level content, but most of you that don't want FC restrictions have probably barely touched it.

But, because of what some badly implemented choices in PWE's repertoire, bad patches, "temporary"packs, OP pack only items, FC heads room, and hypers, are the main culprits of the decline over the years. Packs makes PWE money. So be it. But that money I'm sure has been dropping more and more as the playerbase shrinks from people that speed level to endgame, play for a while then quit out of boredom. Or the playerbase that enjoys the content as it was intended get frustrated by the emptiness, and quit. It's no wonder when you entice people to utilize maybe 5% of the content, in the hopes of making fast money when your business model is designed for a 4 to 5 year lifespan.

Oddly enough, those of us who hope for a level restriction on FC, are not trying to kill the game. We are trying to save it. PWI could have been one of the great MMOs, and even though an uphill battle, still has the potential to keep on going with a bit of advertising, a boost in player moral which becomes a good source for word of mouth, when we say, give the game a shot! Instead of steer clear.

Does PWE want big short term gains, or smaller but more numerous long term gains? That's the question.

ovenusarmanio

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I will, but understand that you are no less close minded in your stance and what the majority believes is not always right (it actually seems to be the oposite in many cases). I try to enlighten you, to look into yourself and see that you are using FCC as a scapegoat for what you think is wrong in a game that you got bored of. You make it clear by so often repeating that most of the content is pre level 100 and post level 100 is not much.

People join on the bandwagon and soon it is a majority that believes it. Thats how the world works. People have a problem, you provide a scapegoat, and the majority will follow happilly. You can speak about close minded, but you refuse to see my point just as i refuse to see yours.

The majority is not always right.
The majority should not be able to control the minority if it is nothing that significantly affects them. (the problem of democracy)

In fact i think you are the close minded one if you cannot see what i am trying to explain and call it irrelevant.

You should think critically about what you are opposing rather than just oppose anything that falls into the category of people attempting to make a change that restricts other people without any critical thought. I would include example of what I mean from a societal/political standpoint, but politics isn't allowed to be discussed on the forums. PM me if you want that example anyway.

Anyway, everything has a cause and effect. I've laid out pretty clearly why I think FF has become as popular as it is, and did you know I've used what I know about political science and sociology to do so? Because people are people no matter where we go or what we are doing. MMOs have already been studied using the anthropological method, and it worked just as well as any studying any other micro society. If you design something like FF, chances are high that people acting rationally and in their own best interest will use that as opposed to other methods of leveling. Because it's the better option for them. That doesn't mean that FF should be designed though. It means that in order to get people to play the game as designed, you have to be careful not to introduce content that rewards people exponentially for choosing to skip the content you designed. Incentivizing behavior that is harmful to the longevity of the game, is going to obviously cause the type of problems we are having now. There is a clear cause and effect when it's on such a large scale, and the bigger the scale (it is the same on every single server PWI has) the more likely that cause isn't because of an individual's tastes. But rather a design flaw in the system that they are interacting with.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I will, but understand that you are no less close minded in your stance and what the majority believes is not always right (it actually seems to be the oposite in many cases). I try to enlighten you, to look into yourself and see that you are using FCC as a scapegoat for what you think is wrong in a game that you got bored of. You make it clear by so often repeating that most of the content is pre level 100 and post level 100 is not much.

People join on the bandwagon and soon it is a majority that believes it. Thats how the world works. People have a problem, you provide a scapegoat, and the majority will follow happilly. You can speak about close minded, but you refuse to see my point just as i refuse to see yours.

The majority is not always right.
The majority should not be able to control the minority if it is nothing that significantly affects them. (the problem of democracy)

In fact i think you are the close minded one if you cannot see what i am trying to explain and call it irrelevant.

Some decisions you run into are (sadly) mutually exclusive. The minority can wail and moan about being controlled, but what happens if they get their way? Then the majority are being controlled by the minority (a phenomenon which happens far too much IRL, incidentally). You can't please everyone.

The majority of the playerbase has taken issue with this for at least 2-3 years, and it's increasingly apparent that the game's survival is on the line here. We don't have the luxury of a solution that everyone will agree with. If my choice is between "controlling" you and letting you kill us both, you better believe I'm going to choose the former.

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

What does destroy this game is making things possible and then removing that possibility. Players who got used to those possibilities will get pissed off and leave. This is true for FCC and it is also true for what they are currently doing to try and take down APS. If there is anything PWE is doing wrong imo, it is listening too much to the QQ comunity. Should they not have made 5 APS as OP as it is in the first place? -totally. Should they now change all the instances to make it worthless ? -terrible.
Should they have made FC lvl 75+ in the first place ? -totally. Should they limit it now ? -nope

And again... you have failed to produce any solutions that feasibly save the game from dying. We want to try something that has a good chance of healing it over time. If you don't have any solutions and are just here to whine about the best one the community could agree upon, then step aside.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

The ideas regurgitated here are nothing new, roll back the way people have done FF since very early 2010 when hypers first came out. In return, we alienate lower levels and new players who can't level like well over 90% of the player base did.

No real thought has been put into the repercussions of this, just as little as PWE considered the repercussions of encouraging the player base to bypass 99% of the quests in their quest logs and ignore most of the world map.

Reality is accept what you have now, and deal with it. It's not going to change, and most importantly this pipe dream magical fix of FF isn't a viable "fix".

Miugre - Heavens Tear

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The ideas regurgitated here are nothing new, roll back the way people have done FF since very early 2010 when hypers first came out. In return, we alienate lower levels and new players who can't level like well over 90% of the player base did.

No real thought has been put into the repercussions of this, just as little as PWE considered the repercussions of encouraging the player base to bypass 99% of the quests in their quest logs and ignore most of the world map.

Reality is accept what you have now, and deal with it. It's not going to change, and most importantly this pipe dream magical fix of FF isn't a viable "fix".

Well since you clearly know how to fix the game... why don't you tell us? Tell us a fix that has a viable chance of saving the game, one hasn't already been tried by the devs (so no, "just buff the quests" isn't going to fly).

WannaBM - Archosaur

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Some decisions you run into are (sadly) mutually exclusive. The minority can wail and moan about being controlled, but what happens if they get their way? Then the majority are being controlled by the minority (a phenomenon which happens far too much IRL, incidentally). You can't please everyone.

I do have to react again.....

NOOOOOO!!! You dont get it. I am not talking about the minority controlling the majority. I am talking about noone controlling anyone as long as the other persons action do not interfere with anyone elses human right of freedom. (freedom in broad sence, including the right to your health, life, personal posessions)

The idea of a controlling things and making either part of the population happy vs the other is so damn ingrained in people. People are control freaks. People just want to control everything and everyone. Yes some cases are mutually exclusive, but definately a lot are not. And if people are being unhappy because another part of the population does something they dont like even though it does not affect them significantly, there is no reason why they should be enforced to stop those other people from doing that regardless who is the majority or minority.

We only need people to control other people where it is about preventing people from limiting those other peoples freedom and safety. (again, in a broad sence. Freedom includes the freedom of being healthy, own possesions etc)

You have the freedom not to use FC pre 75. I want the freedom to use it even though i wont because zhenning is more efficient.

ovenusarmanio

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I do have to react again.....

NOOOOOO!!! You dont get it. I am not talking about the minority controlling the majority. I am talking about noone controlling anyone as long as the other persons action do not interfere with anyone elses human right of freedom. (freedom in broad sence, including the right to your health, life, personal posessions)

The idea of a controlling things and making either part of the population happy vs the other is so damn ingrained in people. People are control freaks. People just want to control everything and everyone. Yes some cases are mutually exclusive, but definately a lot are not. And if people are being unhappy because another part of the population does something they dont like even though it does not affect them significantly, there is no reason why they should be enforced to stop those other people from doing that regardless who is the majority or minority.

We only need people to control other people where it is about preventing people from limiting those other peoples freedom and safety. (again, in a broad sence. Freedom includes the freedom of being healthy, own possesions etc)

You have the freedom not to use FC pre 75. I want the freedom to use it even though i wont because zhenning is more efficient.

But is affecting us significantly, that is the entire point of this discussion. Nobody here is just trying to take your fun. It's decreasing the longevity of the game. IT hurts new players, who could've been our faction mates, friends, squadmates, pvp rivals, etc had they stuck around. It's decreasing the value of any and all RL money anyone has been put into the game, because if the game lasted another 5 years instead of shutting down in like a year or two, then those people obviously would have gotten more out of their money. For some of us, we say it as nothing less as an attempt to revive the game rather than let it die. FF is a big deal because it decreases the longevity of the game. We have evidence of this based on the comparative health of China vs here. We have evidence of this based off the week it was gone here. We have evidence of this based off of simple human nature. So long as a > b, people will choose a. They've already tried adding to b, and it didn't work. The only thing left to do is subtract from a. This isn't about trying to limit people's freedom. Trying to limit people's freedom would be something like trying to revert the ini edit rules because people don't like baby faced toons. Sometimes laws and rules are created, because it is for the greater good. By your logic, nothing in this game should ever be restricted or changed once it's introduced, because it doesn't affect someone's basic rights of humanity.

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The ideas regurgitated here are nothing new, roll back the way people have done FF since very early 2010 when hypers first came out. In return, we alienate lower levels and new players who can't level like well over 90% of the player base did.

No real thought has been put into the repercussions of this, just as little as PWE considered the repercussions of encouraging the player base to bypass 99% of the quests in their quest logs and ignore most of the world map.

Reality is accept what you have now, and deal with it. It's not going to change, and most importantly this pipe dream magical fix of FF isn't a viable "fix".

So in other words, without giving examples of ways to possibly save the game, you are ok with how it is now, and ok with it continuing to die from the FC cancer that over the past couple of years has progressed from something that could have been treated, to destined for incurable?

ovenusarmanio

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Reality is accept what you have now, and deal with it. It's not going to change, and most importantly this pipe dream magical fix of FF isn't a viable "fix".

If everyone had this attitude, we'd all still be in the stone ages. You can't head toward a certain path, do nothing to change it, and expect it to fix itself. In order to get change, you have to make a change. You can't hit a baseball if you've never even stepped up to bat and swung. And yes, there is always the possibility that you'll strikeout. But you definitely won't hit it sitting on the bench. And yes I'm of the opinion, this change should come with more new content to make it worthwhile to still make alts. And yes, i'm of the opinion that they should advertise. That this change should not come on it's own, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen at all. They've already tried buffing quests to get people to interact with new players, it didn't work. So what would you suggest?

Also, another question.

http://blog.stackoverflow.com/wp-content/uploads/Empty-Restaurant.jpg

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2004/12/26/international/26argen1.583.jpg

Which of these two restaurants do you think probably has better food? Which one of these would you eat at if you could only choose one of the two.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

...
Should they not have made 5 APS as OP as it is in the first place? -totally.
It was implemented in that fashion from the very get-go by the original developers.
The company (Wanmei) saw an issue in overall game balance caused by it and implemented a change to it.
They are still having active discussions about re-designing the way that system currently works, and have help off on it primarily because of how large of an impact such a change would make on the community.

Should they now change all the instances to make it worthless ? -terrible.
They changed FCC from it's original design. If they were to follow your current argument, it would immediately be reverted to it's original state as a farming instance like Twilight Temple and Lunar. It would not be fore experience runs at all aside from the quests available in there. You guys would also likely complain then because the bosses in that mode were harder than the ones we have in there now.

Should they have made FC lvl 75+ in the first place ? -totally. Should they limit it now ? -nope
Can you provide any documentation to support this aside from your own opinion and the opinions of others? - nope

Responses are in blue.

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

If everyone had this attitude, we'd all still be in the stone ages. You can't head toward a certain path, do nothing to change it, and expect it to fix itself. In order to get change, you have to make a change. You can't hit a baseball if you've never even stepped up to bat and swung. And yes, there is always the possibility that you'll strikeout. But you definitely won't hit it sitting on the bench. And yes I'm of the opinion, this change should come with more new content to make it worthwhile to still make alts. And yes, i'm of the opinion that they should advertise. That this change should not come on it's own, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen at all. They've already tried buffing quests to get people to interact with new players, it didn't work. So what would you suggest?

Also, another question.

http://blog.stackoverflow.com/wp-content/uploads/Empty-Restaurant.jpg

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2004/12/26/international/26argen1.583.jpg

Which of these two restaurants do you think probably has better food? Which one of these would you eat at if you could only choose one of the two.

If I'm looking to impress someone, I would choose the first, for regular casual dining, I would frequent the second. I bet the second has a better atmosphere and the cooks actually listen to the customers.

Oddly, the best voted Mexican restaurant in my county is this little hole-in-the wall place near me. I tried it, too much salt, and basically what I expected from a place that looks like it does. Still looking for a good Mexican restaurant. b:chuckle

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well since you clearly know how to fix the game... why don't you tell us? Tell us a fix that has a viable chance of saving the game, one hasn't already been tried by the devs (so no, "just buff the quests" isn't going to fly).

There is no reviving this game.

This is run by a company, MMO's run for profit have a shelf life, this company has ensured the shelf life is short.

There's no magic bullet fix that will simply bring people back or attract new players like 2008/2009.

This is the reality of the situation, either you cope with it and have fun in your own way or you keep QQing on the forums as you have for years until you figure out you're not getting the PWI you want.

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

If everyone had this attitude, we'd all still be in the stone ages. You can't head toward a certain path, do nothing to change it, and expect it to fix itself. In order to get change, you have to make a change. You can't hit a baseball if you've never even stepped up to bat and swung. And yes, there is always the possibility that you'll strikeout. But you definitely won't hit it sitting on the bench. And yes I'm of the opinion, this change should come with more new content to make it worthwhile to still make alts. And yes, i'm of the opinion that they should advertise. That this change should not come on it's own, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen at all. They've already tried buffing quests to get people to interact with new players, it didn't work. So what would you suggest?

Also, another question.

http://blog.stackoverflow.com/wp-content/uploads/Empty-Restaurant.jpg

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2004/12/26/international/26argen1.583.jpg

Which of these two restaurants do you think probably has better food? Which one of these would you eat at if you could only choose one of the two.

PWE does advertise on websites that gather traffic for those looking for F2P games.

There is no innovation with this game, and it's been that way from the start. It's recycling and cut/pasting. Corners have been cut from the start, yet there are some idealists who think you can reinvent the wheel when you're not in the driver's seat and practically zero innovation has occurred from the get-go.

A practical approach is what all players but a couple posters who post on the forums do.. play when it's fun, do something else when it's not.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

@WannaBM...... I'm not going to reply to you this round. I think venus covered my general point better than I could right now. I will only add that you need to understand the gravity of this situation. Your rants on freedom mean nothing if the game dies. Quit with the philosophical tangents and get with the program, or leave.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There is no reviving this game.

This is run by a company, MMO's run for profit have a shelf life, this company has ensured the shelf life is short.

There's no magic bullet fix that will simply bring people back or attract new players like 2008/2009.

This is the reality of the situation, either you cope with it and have fun in your own way or you keep QQing on the forums as you have for years until you figure out you're not getting the PWI you want.

If there's any chance of revival (and I believe there is), I will continue pushing for it. If you're convinced there's no point, then you have no reason for being here.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

...
There is no innovation with this game, and it's been that way from the start. It's recycling and cut/pasting. Corners have been cut from the start...

The largest part of this problem is because Wanmei purchased an unfinished product and then proceeded to fire the original developers.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If there's any chance of revival (and I believe there is), I will continue pushing for it. If you're convinced there's no point, then you have no reason for being here.

I have a reason for being here in that these proposed ideas have been floating around for years now, if PWI was going to implement these changes they'd have when they realized how quickly people were leveling early 2010. We're almost 4 years into hyper stones, so don't be surprised when these ridiculous idealist notions get squashed by some realist.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I have a reason for being here in that these proposed ideas have been floating around for years now, if PWI was going to implement these changes they'd have when they realized how quickly people were leveling early 2010. We're almost 4 years into hyper stones, so don't be surprised when these ridiculous idealist notions get squashed by some realist.

Just because a few of us are waxing idealistic at the moment doesn't mean we're ignorant of the probability of success. The only difference is that we believe that probability is non-zero, while you clearly believe otherwise.

Fine, fair enough, I have no reason not to agree-to-disagree with you. But what's it to you? What difference does it make to you if some people are acting (in your view) idealistic? You gain nothing from speaking otherwise, unless you have some parasitic need to ruin other peoples' hope. So again... what's your reason for being here?

Aftershocks - Harshlands

My only real concern, if this actually happens, is quest blocking. I remember joining the game around the time that Tideborn first came out. I quested my way to the 70s on a cleric before I got fed up with quest blocking. Then, I made a sin and leveled him to 80s. It was about this point that I found out about FC. But the quest blocking was annoying and all i could really do is Q.Q about it. I was in unfamiliar territory, trying to learn, and being called names when I didn't know things. Very hostile.

If this change could be made with all servers could have the pve switch for players PRIOR to using hypers the first time, it would help new membership somewhat. However, I agree with the many posts that list what i call the "envy effect". You see players 10x and can't get there quickly, so you get fed up and quit, before you realize what fun you can have.

But, these are just one man's opinions about it. I hope that, whatever they do, they do something positive for the community.


~Shocks out.