Countries with VAT fees - Change in ZEN Charge Policy

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  • kondors
    kondors Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    Thanks for the link showing an article on the VAT law.
    Only thing is that the article is 8 years old!!

    It does however show that the rate of VAT to be charged should be the same as the member state that the customer resides in.
    So depending on what Country we live in we should all be paying unique amounts for our Zen

    Please post your country, VAT rate and price in euro for 10 k zen now

    For me..I am in the UK, VAT is 20%, and 10k Zen is now 90 euros
  • kondors
    kondors Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    Frankie says its beyond their control and its gospel right?
    He says this law applies to everyone living in Europe and its fact right?

    Get a grip of yourselves.. there are many many informed and researched comments on here from people who actually DO know what they are talking about and can back it up.

    The only link on here relating to the VAT law is aa article on some legal firms website dating back 8 years ago.

    Where is the Law you speak of Frankie? Show me your research evidence. Dont have it?

    Why on earth anyone would assume that every word he puts on here is handed down form some all knowing authority is beyond me.

    You should be charging US citizens in Euros too, you know because the busines you have has branches in Europ and therefore some of what you sell US players comes from Europe.
    Make sense?
    No?..

    Neither does your attempt to charge people under a law that doesnt apply to them, in a currency they do not use, for a service or product they do not ever own (remains the property of PWI..blah blah) and a product or service that neither leaves the US nor arrives in the UK.. (in my case that is)

    I want to see the charge element itemised on our zen purchases. Why because then you will need to refund the illegally charged taxation, plus court costs for your blatant lies.
    You have no authority, no dispensation to do this.

    Of course if you have the actual law and can demonstrate that what you say is true.. I will gladly retract.

    But you cannot.

    Itemise the charges and grow a set if you are so sure you are correct.
  • kondors
    kondors Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    Ticket submitted today to have the currency changed to that of my Country instead of forcing me to carry out a currency exchange to the non applicable Euro.

    Also asked for my charges to be itemised to reflect the VAT being applied.

    Finally asked for timescale for implementation of these requests.

    Ticket submitted in accordance with Frankies request that ALL issues should now be conducted via ticket submission. Perhaps the rest of the affected people in Europe should also submit a ticket to resolve this :)
  • _Akkyra_ - Dreamweaver
    _Akkyra_ - Dreamweaver Posts: 19 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    Noriliza - Sanctuary wrote: »
    lol...well theres always my signature.


    b:chuckleb:laugh
    [SIGPIC]http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/12258300.jpg/[/SIGPIC]
  • SmellsFishy - Dreamweaver
    SmellsFishy - Dreamweaver Posts: 74 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    frankieraye wrote:
    Gold Site Spammers - Please report here
    10-04-2011, 04:05 PM
    frankieraye wrote:
    Countries with VAT fees - Change in ZEN Charge Policy
    10-03-2011, 04:15 PM

    Hmmm...I wonder if there's a connection...
  • MeaMoeYao - Lost City
    MeaMoeYao - Lost City Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    PWI Charge Zen page picks up your location via IP address, if you use an America proxy to browse and charge you can purchase your Zen in USD.

    I don't know the legality or repurcussions but I see no legislation within PWIs TOC to prohibit this, being from the UK and not legislated by EU law anyway, I see no moral or legal obligation to pay in Euros either.

    inb4permabaniaintevenmad.jpg
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    //\\Futa\\// 101 BM - Chinatown
  • DaSquirrel - Sanctuary
    DaSquirrel - Sanctuary Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    funantares wrote: »
    1 Month zhen free since they added the vat fees !b:chuckleb:victory

    On my opinion, this is the best answer that pwi european players can give them.

    and the only one that should make them think to stepback b:angry

    p.s.
    This month my zhen charge went for a nice dinner at restourant with family b:laugh

    Who win?

    Snap I rufuse to buy zen and same should go for other euro players, with so many of us not buying this could be the only way to get PWI to see sence, this has annoyed a lot of us b:angry
  • mrflibbleuk
    mrflibbleuk Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    Yep, have level two wings and was a heavy cs user. Not spending one pound more (uk user) on this game. It's typical f2p mentality, **** all the players for as much as possible before the game tanks.
  • Tsukyini - Raging Tide
    Tsukyini - Raging Tide Posts: 1,766 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    vinterhauk wrote: »
    Think that is called removing human rights, and there is an international court in Haag concerned with such matters. What you gonna do if all non EU.members gonna bring this to that court :).

    As much as I disagree with what PWE is doing regarding the VAT, statements like this are just completely over the top and won't result in anything being done.

    I mean seriously, what human right guarantees you anything in regards to paying for virtual currency for a free online game? This is the sort of thing you shouldn't be buying unless you have disposable income, and I've never heard of any human rights regarding disposable income.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Mystx - Heavens Tear
    Mystx - Heavens Tear Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    heavenstears gold price is 1.3m per gold atm so 1.3m for 1$
    i pay in euro now so my 1 golds worth more technically, can i sell it at 1.4m each lol
  • HardnHeavy - Raging Tide
    HardnHeavy - Raging Tide Posts: 151 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    I quited PWI when the FC glitch started and I considered to give it another chance but when I saw this thread my thoughts about coming back disappeared.

    *was never here* lol
    [SIGPIC]http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/2373/simplesig.png[/SIGPIC]
    Ty Silvy for the sig.
  • deus69
    deus69 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    just wondering.....
    is this "brand new" charge zen now promo, a way to compensate all the massive income losses you experiencing in october 2011?
    just guessing that many heavy charging european clients, dont charge your virtual zen anymore. it is good so!

    your time is running out pwe and u still dont adjusted your virtual currency for europeans..... u still have the same arrogant and discriminating attidute to charge all europeans at a higher exchange rate.

    i estimate you will continue this "****" charge practice until all of us say goodbye and switch to anohers company mmo....

    b:bye
  • Mr_Punkster - Dreamweaver
    Mr_Punkster - Dreamweaver Posts: 272 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    Whoever does the macroeconomics for for this company should be FIRED!! It's simple to see zen is only worth what customers are willing to pay for it. Zen has always been over priced if you ask me, based on the costs of items in boutique. Now you expect players from Europe to pay more for something that costs nothing for PWI to make? This could be a large enough flaw to break the company.

    Let's say 50,000 players from Europe who would be willing to buy $50 worth of zen decide not to based on the rip-off (yes...that's what it is).

    50k x $50 = $250,000...that's a loss of $250k

    Now let's say PWI increased the amount of zen gained per Euro vs US to make it even with the offset...or lowered the cost per Euro (including VAT)...yea...we'll go by that.

    $45 x 50k = $225,000...that's all gain!

    Why is it all gain? The product being sold is intangible, renewable product which cost nothing to create. Yes, I know servers etc cost $$...but each zen (the product) is created at point of sale. We're not even getting into profits, yet merely talking gain. Based on the product being sold though, I'm fairly confident to state at LEAST 95% of that gain would be profit due to the number of players in this game.

    Keep in mind I only threw a few figures out there off the top of my head, therefore not the real loss/gain. Though, I'm certain those figures don't even come CLOSE to the actual LOSS from potential customers PWI is facing.

    So yeeeeaaaaaa yet another dumb move by PWI.

    ...if you must know...I live in the U.S.A. (MIT graduate minored in Economics).
    lvl101 Legit archer...not 1 hyper used or multi-FC
  • _Morigan_ - Harshlands
    _Morigan_ - Harshlands Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    lol

    nice try with the orb sale.

    Hope every euro player has at least 1 U S friend who is willing to buy zen with dollars and help his euro buddy out :)

    edit: charge rewards are laughable anyway
  • kondors
    kondors Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    Ok so for anyone who is interested, I actually submitted a ticket requesting two things.

    First I asked for my charges to be itemised to show the VAT that PW claim is being charged for Europeans.

    Secondly, I asked to be charged in GBP since for me Euros are just another foreign currency for which I am charged a fee to obtain (as with any foreign currency exchange).

    Below is the ticket and the response:

    Ticket Summary
    Ticket #: 15049-315174
    Email Notification (Contact Info): No
    Status: Solution Suggested
    Date Created: 10/21/2011 4:30 PM PDT
    Last Updated: 10/24/2011 12:25 PM PDT


    Ticket Description
    Game: Perfect World International
    Server: Heavens Tear (PVE)
    Character: Kondors_Kure
    Submission Type: Customer Support and GM Help
    Category: Account Questions
    Operating System:
    Internet Service Provider:
    Connection Type:
    Computer Manufacturer:
    Summary: Zen charges
    Details: Please change my zen charging procedure in two respects.

    Firstly please change it reflcect the currency of my Country so that you are not forcing me to exchange currencies from the foreign currency you are currently attempting to use (Euro's).

    Secondly, please itemise my final bill to show the element of the charges that is VAT



    Please let me know when you will complete this by so that I have a valid idea of the timescale to expect.

    Thank you.
    Where did you experience this issue? (If available in game, please note the coordinate numbers.):
    Which character(s), NPC(s), item(s), skill(s), or quest(s) were involved?:
    What exactly happened? Please be as detailed as possible.:
    What do you believe should have happened?:
    Attachment:


    Solution
    Solved:
    (10/24/2011 12:25 PM PDT) Thank you for contacting us here at Perfect World Entertainment.

    Only your payment processor, and not PWE, can itemize your transactions or change the currency they are shown in. We do not directly process transactions.

    We apologize for the inconvenience.




    So... having told us in the opening post of this thread that THEY (PWI) have made these changes, they NOW say it is down to the payment processors.
    Are we to believe that ALL of the payment processors (paypal, moneybookers etc) ALL simulataneously changed their systems in exactly the same way?
    Have these same payment processors changed in this way when taking payments for services OTHER than PWI?

    This approach of "nothing to do with me... not my job...out of my hands"
    is utter rubbish.
    You have told us frankie that YOU as a company have made the changes.
    Stop having your support staff lie about it now.
    YOU are adding the VAT...how do I know?
    Because YOU said so.. so itemise it.. show me what the VAT element is.

    There is a blatant lie in here somewhere.. either you lied when you said YOU made the changes... or you are lying when you say it isnt you but the payment processor companies.

    Either way.. not good enough.

    No more lies please.. come clean and provide the information requested.
  • Sdrassa - Sanctuary
    Sdrassa - Sanctuary Posts: 136 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    I can tell you in all truth that paypal did not enforce these changes. I ordered some goods from the US just 2 days ago and I could pay with paypal without it being changed into Euro's or some **** about VAT or whatever. So yes, PWE is lying and feeding us more bullpoo.
    [SIGPIC]http://94.100.116.161/1316250001-1316300000/1316251101-1316251200/1316251167_5_GKOg.jpeg[/SIGPIC]
    This thread just became 20% cooler
  • J_Balt - Heavens Tear
    J_Balt - Heavens Tear Posts: 96 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    Sdrassa - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I can tell you in all truth that paypal did not enforce these changes. I ordered some goods from the US just 2 days ago and I could pay with paypal without it being changed into Euro's or some **** about VAT or whatever. So yes, PWE is lying and feeding us more bullpoo.

    This b:surrender

    There goes my 10* orb's b:angry
  • Mendolin - Sanctuary
    Mendolin - Sanctuary Posts: 1,092 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    i think VAT fees are charged to PWI from the payment source like paypal, etc. when PWI receives the payment profit. i could be totally wrong, but you should email/ contact paypal and ask them how they itemize and/or payout companies like PWI and which taxes, charges they deduct from the amount they hand over for profit to PWI.

    PWI is probably just wanting to make up the profit now that there is another tax that is charged on their initial profit in european countries, they want you to pay for it... not them.

    again... i could be totally wrong
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • PearlBreeze - Raging Tide
    PearlBreeze - Raging Tide Posts: 83 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    Even if u guys had to pay more vat .Its not likely i wil ever get more zen .

    Its just to exspensive.Sure u can lower droprate and try to forse people into buying zen.
    But i promise u it wil only result in quitting the game.

    The items get more overpriced everyday when hair use to be 5 gold to buy all of a sudden its upgraded to almost double ,the crown is now 8 gold.

    Im sure vat is raised but that doesent mean u should overrate ure items and push droprate down.

    CAuse sure u wil get some new players but how long will they last in this game ? is more of the business question.

    The vat maybe raised of businesses ye to get more tax from businesses sins u guys dont pay that much taxes.

    Our goverments in europe simply higher the civillian taxes .And so do the businesses cuz when ure tax go up ,u just hand it over to the gamers and they wil pay ure tax,so u stil pay 0 tax.

    Thats how it goes in holland annyway.Oversees Businesses actually dont pay nothing that have an office here.

    Annyway last thing this game is only good when people can afford it .
    And i would have been gone already if it wasent for my friends.However i do NOT buy any zen anymore ,and i wont until u guys wil drop prices and put up droprate.

    I prolly sooner quit this game then spending 3 years so i can aford my r9.Srry but ure game sucks more every day.

    Let me make a bill for u on ure R9 armor . cuz it comes close to 525 gold.I like to know who is gonna buy that with real cash ? Kids cant.They dont have that kind of cash unless they daddy rich.And truth be told im not willing to pay 500 euro for just silly pixels.I overpaid it as it is and i never felt worse in my life i even feel scammed.

    Lats face it for 500 euro i can buy 8 new games that are a lot better and have higher graphics that u ever have.SO i just wont spend any cash at all anymore on ure game .
    But i am willing however willing to pay a monthly memership if the price is right.Cuz its crisses here too lol.But no im not gonna spend more then what i already did and that is about 200 euro ,wich is 100 to much already.On ure game.Im looking for a new game as we speak and one that is not of ure company cuz frenkly im a little fed up with anything related to ure company.

    If u find it so diffecult put in membership of 10 bucks a month and give everything free.So people can actually progress.

    I know u guys wont cuz this makes u a lot more bucks.Wel it wil make me wanna quit annyway .And not just me ,i hear it more and more everyday.b:bye
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • AllanFox - Heavens Tear
    AllanFox - Heavens Tear Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    frankieraye wrote: »
    *Copied from Shnuggles' posts here and here*


    Further Clarification Below:


    There was a law passed in Europe earlier this year that placed regulations for all businesses that have operations within the European Union that has forced this change. Companies were given a certain amount of time to comply to these new regulations and that time is now.


    Prior to the change, Perfect World Entertainment was paying the VAT taxes for all of our European players and when this law was passed, we explained to the European officials that our company was paying this additional fee for our users so that they can continue to pay in United States Dollars and we were informed that we were no longer allowed to do so. That information came straight from the people in charge of these new regulations for Europe. Perfect World Entertainment was then forced to abide by these new regulations and we were forced to make the change you now see.


    If you are playing from Europe, you are no longer allowed to pay in United States Dollars which is why you no longer see that option. This has absolutely nothing to do with greed or wanting more money or any other negative connotation that has been thrown out there in regards to the change. We as a company are simply complying to the new laws put in place in order for our company to continue operations in you local region. Had we not complied to these new regulations, we would have to just pull out of operations in those areas and no longer provide service to those regions.

    Really? As of 20th Oct this year VAT was NOT being charged ... or at least the VAT charge shown on my Paypal transaction record is shown as being 0.00 Euros (message got truncated at a euro symbol).
  • Manostra - Harshlands
    Manostra - Harshlands Posts: 308 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    I assume, however im not saying im right here, they payed vat allready yes. But they raised the price too. Lets say i payed 150 Euro for 213 Zen so they probably payed 30 Euro VAT. Now i pay 180 Euros for 213 Zen and they pay 36 Euro VAT.


    Nothing changed they still pay vat the way they did before , they just upped their demand for our monney they want more of our monney for their zen this excuse they not allowed to pay the vat is bullock. They did before and do now and nothing changed in the tax process they just raised the price.

    I have enough from this deciving shady arguments
    Bonus zen promotion right now ? BONUS ZEN MY *** , Rep Sale, Cheap 10* again. They put out their heavyest bestseller. They try really really hard to motivate us to charge.

    But know what ?


    Im not charging until they take this back
    And if they dont take it back, i know other places where to spend my monney.

    Not that you guys care, youre a big company and my little few thousands of euros are a drop in the ocean. But i really hope other people think simillar and the ocean dry out so you get some sense b:angry
    I hate Room 38
  • _Morigan_ - Harshlands
    _Morigan_ - Harshlands Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited October 2011
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    Manostra - Harshlands wrote: »
    I assume, however im not saying im right here, they payed vat allready yes. But they raised the price too. Lets say i payed 150 Euro for 213 Zen so they probably payed 30 Euro VAT. Now i pay 180 Euros for 213 Zen and they pay 36 Euro VAT.


    Nothing changed they still pay vat the way they did before , they just upped their demand for our monney they want more of our monney for their zen this excuse they not allowed to pay the vat is bullock. They did before and do now and nothing changed in the tax process they just raised the price.

    I have enough from this deciving shady arguments
    Bonus zen promotion right now ? BONUS ZEN MY *** , Rep Sale, Cheap 10* again. They put out their heavyest bestseller. They try really really hard to motivate us to charge.

    But know what ?


    Im not charging until they take this back
    And if they dont take it back, i know other places where to spend my monney.

    Not that you guys care, youre a big company and my little few thousands of euros are a drop in the ocean. But i really hope other people think simillar and the ocean dry out so you get some sense b:angry


    +1

    at least the barkeeper friday night was happy about my money^^
  • e1adar
    e1adar Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    I routinely process multiple international transactions due to my job and any country that is part of the EU has a VAT fee (Valued Added Tax). Paypal, etc specifically state in their T&C that they do not and will not display the VAT fees to the end payers. Also, for my company we use to pay the VAT for our clients and can no longer do so because of the rules and regulations regarding the VAT. So don't whine to PWE, take it up with your local representatives of government.
  • Nyssame - Sanctuary
    Nyssame - Sanctuary Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    Some kind of interesting, that due to VAT the exchange rate of Dollar to EUR is considered to be about 1:1 instead of 1 $ : 0,79 EUR by PWI.
    Sorry, but Facebook Mini-Games I looked through have the same problem with VAT but still have appropriate prices for EUR compared to the dollar prices equal for all players.
    Because of the time zones we cant take part in TW in events but still have to pay much more.

    If they have paid taxes before as they write there shouldnt be any difference. Tax afterwards - pay for player afterwards, tax directly - lower price directly.
  • Mr_Punkster - Dreamweaver
    Mr_Punkster - Dreamweaver Posts: 272 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    e1adar wrote: »
    I routinely process multiple international transactions due to my job and any country that is part of the EU has a VAT fee (Valued Added Tax). Paypal, etc specifically state in their T&C that they do not and will not display the VAT fees to the end payers. Also, for my company we use to pay the VAT for our clients and can no longer do so because of the rules and regulations regarding the VAT. So don't whine to PWE, take it up with your local representatives of government.

    I'm sorry but your argument is null for 3 reasons:
    1. Parts of Europe who do not use the Euro (such as the UK) are forced to pay in Euros which automatically adds VAT.
    2. Extra zen could be given to make up for the difference.
    3. After a player purchases zen they obtain nothing, because all parts of the game remain property of PWE. Therefore a zen purchase should be considered a donation. Since when are donations taxed?

    So...yaaaaa...these players have every right to complain to PWI.

    I live in the US, and I'm only stickin' up for 'em. Why? It's unethical and downright poor decision making.
    lvl101 Legit archer...not 1 hyper used or multi-FC
  • Minimus_ - Sanctuary
    Minimus_ - Sanctuary Posts: 240 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    Nyssame - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Some kind of interesting, that due to VAT the exchange rate of Dollar to EUR is considered to be about 1:1 instead of 1 $ : 0,79 EUR by PWI.
    Sorry, but Facebook Mini-Games I looked through have the same problem with VAT but still have appropriate prices for EUR compared to the dollar prices equal for all players.
    Because of the time zones we cant take part in TW in events but still have to pay much more.

    If they have paid taxes before as they write there shouldnt be any difference. Tax afterwards - pay for player afterwards, tax directly - lower price directly.

    We can wake up/stay awake for TW. Ima doing it for almost 3 years b:laugh

    But seriously. It is basically true that the 8pm events are at a bad time for Europeans and many started the game when there were only westcoast servers. If we could at least switch with our gear to a European server to have TW/events at a decent time ppl may easier understand why the prices are so high.

    I charged yesterday some euros for orbs but ima not charging anything in general. These prices for Europeans are simply too high atm.
    Middle lane, middle lane.. b:shutup
  • Aowenn - Archosaur
    Aowenn - Archosaur Posts: 161 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    I'm in the UK and the last time i checked ( about 1 second ago ) we are still using pounds & pence.

    Just yet another company trying to make yet more money out of consumers.

    What baffles me is pwi's prices in the first place.

    20+ english pounds for an orb ( well, more like pixels )

    Why not make prices cheaper, that way more people will buy items as they will be more affordable.

    Think about it PWI...

    Cheaper prices = more buyers = potentially more players as prices are fairer
  • Kinjareta - Archosaur
    Kinjareta - Archosaur Posts: 68 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    Surely, You could make the amount that the people in europe the same as the people in the US have to pay the same, simply by using a money converter. Living in Great Britain, and purchasing Zen, I noticed a bigger hole in my wallet whenever I do so Q_Q I dont see the fairness in this...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Airyll - Dreamweaver
    Airyll - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,882 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    Kinjareta - Archosaur wrote: »
    Surely, You could make the amount that the people in europe the same as the people in the US have to pay the same, simply by using a money converter. Living in Great Britain, and purchasing Zen, I noticed a bigger hole in my wallet whenever I do so Q_Q I dont see the fairness in this...

    Trick: don't buy zen.

    To be really, really super frank about this issue, if you're still purchasing zen after this ridiculous nonsense, all you do is send the message that PWE can get away with this because you still care too much about your pixels to stop charging, and you are effectively letting them steal from you.

    Which is, you know, your own damn fault. You can either have the sense to stop charging (especially if you live in Europe but are not a part of the EU or are not in a Eurozone, like the UK for instance) or you can charge and deal with daylight robbery.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • X_trigger_X - Heavens Tear
    X_trigger_X - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,301 Arc User
    edited November 2011
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    I put my money into my other game instead, was cheaper :)
This discussion has been closed.

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