Small change to 5.0

Dedz - Raging Tide wrote: »

I would play in that new pvp server if it did come out.

..And finally, a smart sin that accepts the truth that sins are indeed broken. (Most sins deny that obvious fact.) Thank you Epros/Bastilla.

Anytime Dedz/Lol_U_Mad.

I quit bastilla over that issue. Why play if its just on easymode?

Epros - Raging Tide wrote: »

I think they should remove all -int gear from pwi, majorly nerf assassins, and release eg r9, as well as revert tt and lunar. While they are at it open a new pvp server with no pack/rep sales and get rid of hypers, oracles, and frost as an exp dungeon over mats. And before you say anything, I'm a rank 9+10 sin, I just realize how incredibly broken the class (as well as permaspark and 5 APS) is.

while were at it lets also remove all channeling gear/bonuses from PWI

Lady_buffer - Heavens Tear wrote: »

they should ax the darn 5 APS altogether. not that i have anything against the ones who use 5 aps or anything. i just feel that in an mmo, even at end game, no one person should be able to kill off the hardest bosses, and no pvp combat should last a lousy 3 seconds, altho even without 5 aps ppl will still get one shotted lol.

should delete R9 wiz, psys, archer,...wait all R9

and delete +12 weaps as well b:chuckle

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

People with great gear will still solo the same things. People with not so great gear won't get invited anymore.

People with only 5aps sparked and +5 weps still won't get invited to the 5aps base +10 squads, what's your point? Farming will go on for them, only difference is the OP squads will still take 5min to complete nirv, and the not OP squads will take like 20min now.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

People with only 5aps sparked and +5 weps still won't get invited to the 5aps base +10 squads, what's your point? Farming will go on for them, only difference is the OP squads will still take 5min to complete nirv, and the not OP squads will take like 20min now.

My point was pretty clear. It really won't affect anything and sins will still be OP.

Do I have to write down to you even further so you can grasp it?

b:victory


edit: I'll make this more simple for you so you can understand:

Even after this, you will still cry about aps.

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

If a ceiling is put in, BMs/barbs/archers would ditch their claws/fists, and move to the weapon that allows the closest match to the ceiling. So would we be seeing 2 APS spearers and 2 APS axe archers? Would they then rescale refinement levels of ranged weapons to match them back in line? I just don't see PWE pulling off a competent fix with a ceiling that wouldn't just **** so much more up.

If they cap APS to something that makes permaspark impossible, it'll just cause people to use their native weapons. Archers will be using Rank 8/9 bow instead of TT100 fists, BMs will be using Rank 9/Nirvana axes instead of TT100 fists.

But the capping won't do much to anyone. Archers will still have high DPS with Rank 8/9 and Demon Quick Shot, BMs will still have HF and their axes. The biggest difference would probably be in seeing more Assassins with lots of Rank 9 armors, as that'd be their best choice for DPS if they couldn't permaspark.

As for no chi gain, that would likely affect pure solo farming on many things across the board. But if the group kills fast enough, with planned out amping and chi gain on the sin's side, would it change anything from group farming? Maybe make them take specific genies, or utilize a few skills at the right time; but if it all just leads to even more specific squad requirements with no other change, who cares?

Not gaining Chi would favor Assassins majorly, so I doubt they'd do that. And besides, as can be seen from various YouTube videos, most high-end Nirvana squads manage to kill bosses in 1-2 sparks anyway. So the biggest effect would indeed be in solo farming, where you use much more time per boss and need the increased DPH, DPS, heals, immunities and purifies.

Sins equipped with chi pots and CE genie could likely do 3 demon sparks in a row. Double damage the whole time, with Buddha's Guard and AD support during change ups. Easily doable, and at high end should drop just about every boss. Would the update affect that at all? If not, it will just **** over the non-elites and make some very rich highly geared players more rich.

Actually, more like 4-5. Start at 399, spark, then use Tackling Slash and Rising Dragon Strike to get back to 299, hit once to have 304, spark again. After this spark, use Shadow Escape and Inner Harmony to regain 300 chi, spark again. After you're done with this, Rising Dragon Strike and Tackling Slash would already be out of cooldown, so you could use a chi pot or CE to spark again. That's 4 sparks already. Sage sins would do even better, since they got a 30% chance to get 3 sparks on Inner Harmony and always get 180 chi on Rising Dragon Strike, plus they have Master Li's Technique for another 50 chi.

But yes, there's really nothing they can do. If they cap APS, people will just switch gears to compensate and if they limit the chi gain people will rage about favoring Sins.

Barunaa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

while were at it lets also remove all channeling gear/bonuses from PWI

Channeling gear isn't problematic because there's also cast delay. When you cast a spell, the channel delay is from when you hit the button to when the spell fires. Channeling gear shortens this delay. But after the spells fire, you're frozen in place and unable to do anything during the cast delay. This delay is not shortened by channeling gear.

Consequently, channeling gear makes your attack rate approach the limit set by the cast time of the spell in a roughly linear fashion. Interval gear OTOH has no analogue to cast time, and makes your attack rate approach infinity in an inverse asymptotic fashion (math-speak for it blows up really quickly, even faster than an exponential). Channeling is interval done right. *

They should be revamping the interval system to work more like the channeling system. Each weapon could have an analogue to cast time which defines the maximum APS you can attain with said weapon. This would allow axes/hammers to be better than fist weapons with no interval, but fist weapons would become better than axes/hammers if you had some interval gear, with the balance shifting back to axes/hammers if you had extreme interval gear. That would add an extra dimension to the solution space for optimal weapon choice, keeping things interesting without being so overpowering it relegates all other weapons to uselessness. This is pretty much the effect channeling has on spells (though I don't think PWE realized channel and cast times gave them this kind of flexibility when they designed their spell delays).

Unfortunately, since 5 APS has been allowed so long, it's doubtful they'd actually be able to do this. A lot of their highest-paying customers would probably quit since this fix would effectively nerf the 5 APS character they've dumped so much money into.

* For the mathematically inclined:

The exact numerical benefit you'll gain from -x% channeling is:
(channel_time + cast_time) / [ (100% - x%)*channel_time + cast_time ]
While the maximum theoretical benefit is:
(channel_time + cast_time) / (cast_time)

The exact numerical benefit you'll game from -x interval is:
(weapon_delay) / (weapon_delay-x)
While the maximum theoretical benefit is:
limit y->0 of (weapon_delay / y)
which is infinity, which they've currently capped at 5 APS.

ok so the aps people cant gain chi to get spark with normal attack..ok...casters cant gain chi unless they hit normal..seems fair ty bye

bleh yeah sins will be more OP still,more apoth will be used,and genie skill for chi.Anything can be worked around.

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

/facepalm

They are two completely different things that the original developers rightly developed differently. There are more pieces that receive -channeling. Channeling affects magic, which consequently does high spike damage at distances. Interval affects the interval between hits, which are low damage and melee range.

Trying to say that the same system should apply to both is just asinine.

If interval affected attack speed as channeling is applied with your theories, the gains for channeling would far outweigh interval.

And like I said before, I'll say it again... to all those who whine about interval, including you, after the spark nerf, you'll still be whining about interval.

There is one only simple solution for it.

Developers must do -int for magic classes too.

All classes have critical hits, but melee/archers only have -interval bonus.

Edit:
Or they can do channeling for each attack of melee/archers classes, and - channeling for them instead of -interval


P.S.
Yesterday saw how 2 melee killed level 150 boss with 23 mln. hp during ~10 minutes.

Can 2 Wizards/2 Psychics/ ... do it during same time ?

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

/facepalm

Yes, that's a simple fix. But it's not fair. If you want that fix, then give melee long range aoe physical damage. But since you probably don't want that...

Make all the classes do exactly the same thing, have all the same defenses and attacks and calculations for damage, then your point would make sense. That's the only way it would make sense.

Magic classes have low life initially. Yea, it will be good to have more life.

Edit:
Or to change -interval only like I suggested.

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

The biggest issue isn't even APS, it's expansions. -Interval was initially balanced in the game long before this version even came here. Don't care about the exact order, but common sense should dictate that by the time someone actually managed 5 APS, they hit endgame. Before that even the unloved classes of the game were in there grinding for gear ups and getting their drops same as the fisters. They get their TT end game, now fisters need to go for lunar. Wizzies could instead do money runs, and refine their gear up. APS finally gets their Deicides, and now do runs to catch up in refines. Both sides should be roughly powered up to equal levels at end game. The APS can now earn faster, but for what? They are at end game. They represent the two different styles of combat; DPH vs. DPS.

Then pops up an expansion with new content, and better gear. Suddenly, that ability to earn faster now pays off. They get the drops faster, easier, and can turn more profit. So what before wasn't unbalanced during creation, is now unbalanced. However, the game as initially set up to be balanced off the base version. So each future expansion will simply keep widening the gap.

The problem is the way the game was designed in the first place. The core of the game. Despite what many may wish, there is no way to wave a magic wand and fix it. They would have to change the very basis of the game, which if done early on in its incarnation wouldn't be so bad. But with expansion after expansion piled on, how can anyone truly believe there is a simple fix to this?

If someone want to balance game, this is one of the possible ways (proposed by me).

Or we can look around and not do anything.

Magicsaber - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If someone want to balance game, this is one of the possible ways (proposed by me).

Or we can look around and not do anything.

There isn't a logical simple fix. Sure, can toss something up. But because of the number of expansions and additions, those changes affect others. That is the problem. Fix one thing, another is now broken. Because it requires changing a core system attribute, to deal with an imbalance brought about by additions after the initial balance was created. Do you at least understand that aspect of what Michael and I are stating? If not, I'll stop responding to you.

EDIT: Though Ast's idea above does seem a more reasonable idea than most. The others pop off at least 5 reasons why it's a bad idea in seconds; this one actually seems worth working with as a base to build off of.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Funny that you first say that their solution would favor sins and then you suggest a solution that would, again, favor sins. Also I do hope that you mean "third spark" instead of just Demon Spark, because that'd kinda leave us with 5 aps Sage BMs, 5 aps Sage Archers and 4 aps Sage Sins, out of which the last is top by a massive margin and anything but these 3 would be ridiculous in comparison.

As for why your solution would favor sins? Rising Dragon Strike has a cooldown of 30 seconds. If Demon/Sage Spark had a cooldown of 60 seconds, a Sin could easily combo Power Dash and Subsea Strike.

In a similar manner, BMs would have HF.

I was thinking 5 APS Spark+ fister sins/archers, but would hope the CD would be either shared or having similar penalties against the lower sparks as well. And while there are ways still to do large damage, it won't be as much as perma-sparking. There are things to do around this idea, but it does still weaken compared to other ideas that have been discussed. And as a base, it does allow for a nice spot to work and rebalance from. Whcih might mean changes to sin class as you noted.

Again, at least the CD idea doesn't immediately seem as ignorant as the other ones do. Still needs fleshing out, but much more promising.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

As for why your solution would favor sins? Rising Dragon Strike has a cooldown of 30 seconds. If Demon/Sage Spark had a cooldown of 60 seconds, a Sin could easily combo Power Dash and Subsea Strike.

I assumed it would be obvious the argument applied to sage spark as well. Can you describe the combo you're thinking of that would favor sins?

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

You do that almost every post lol. The main issue with -interval is that it disproportionately favors fast weapons for no good reason. Without interval pretty much all physical weapons have similar DPS and that is where they balanced the refine rates. Add in full interval and axes get 50% faster while daggers get 400% faster. This throws off the DPS balance they designed. Ideally -interval would be percentage based so that it preserves the DPS balance between weapons.

I'm still shocked they went with this chi solution since it turns the game into a competition of who can gain chi the fastest unsparked. Sins will win that competition every time. They should have just added a damn cool down to demon spark. That skill is too powerful to have no cool down. Something like a 60 second cooldown would give all classes plenty of time to gather their sparks.

but DPS isn't everything in PvP, a BM using claws simply cannot kill anything without -int gear. If -int were percentage based, there would be no reason to use fist/claw yet again, because why use those when you can have similar DPS with axes but have better nukes and spike damage?

Of course, giving Sins -int on R8 was stupid, because that made a harder hitting weapon equal with claw/fist in attack speed. The solution should just have been changing PvE so it's not so single-target based.