Small change to 5.0

Epros - Raging Tide

Point is, sins 5 APS -int and permasparking are all broken. Nerf them all and do away with a few altogether.

Traz - Dreamweaver

It wont matter to the upper players, they can get squads that kill everything in 1 spark (other then world bosses/harpy).

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide

It's ok my sin is sage b:chuckle

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

/facepalm

They are two completely different things that the original developers rightly developed differently. There are more pieces that receive -channeling. Channeling affects magic, which consequently does high spike damage at distances. Interval affects the interval between hits, which are low damage and melee range.

Trying to say that the same system should apply to both is just asinine.

You're just showing you don't fully understand the consequences of the interval and channeling systems which I've described. The channel/cast system gives the game designer more fine control to tweak its benefits and costs, because how much a spell benefits from channeling can be modified on a spell-by-spell basis.

The interval system is inherently flawed with a mathematical hole which causes it to blow up when interval reaches zero. They had to institute an artificial global limit of 5 APS to prevent the game from ever hitting that hole and crashing with a divide by zero error. It also has no flexibility between different weapon types - faster weapons benefit from it more up until they hit the cap (though the cap theoretically mitigates it somewhat - see below).

Let me put it this way: the channel/cast system could be used to nearly exactly duplicate the effects of the current interval system, but without the need for a global 5 APS cap. It is that much better. That's why it'd be silly to remove channeling gear from the game if interval gear were removed, as the person I was replying to proposed.

If interval affected attack speed as channeling is applied with your theories, the gains for channeling would far outweigh interval.

No it wouldn't. I said nothing about the magnitude of the effects, only how their ratios could be controlled and capped. All I described was how channeling's channel/cast system applied to interval could allow you to fine-tune each weapon for a predetermined min/max DPS output based on interval; instead of just one global setting established by capping APS at 5. A ratio of channel time to cast time of 2:1 establishes a cap of 2x DPS improvement for a spell if you go from 0% to channeling to 100%.

A ratio of interval time to cast-time-analogue of 2:1 would also establish a cap of 2x DPS improvement from -max interval on a melee weapon (for that particular weapon). But I never said it has to be the same 2:1 as spells. If you felt melee needs twice the boost of casters to be competitive, you could set spells at a 2:1 ratio on average, while melee got a 4:1 ratio on average (4x DPS improvement from -max interval). If you wanted one particular spell or weapon to be more effective with channeling or interval, you could set its ratio at 5:1. If you wanted a different spell or weapon to be less effective with channeling/interval (i.e. more effective for newbies who have no channeling nor interval gear), you could boost its raw damage but set it at a 3:2 ratio (1.5x DPS improvement). These are all things you can do with the channel/cast system which you can't do with the interval system.

The 5 APS limit in a roundabout way already does this. But it's just set so high that the optimal weapon choice is a fast weapon. If there were more equipment pieces with higher interval reduction in the game, the balance would shift back to axes/hammers as I've described because 5 APS axes would out-DPS 5 APS fists. The global APS cap is a clumsy fix though because it lacks the case-by-case fine-tuning capability a channel-cast delay system gives you. For example, if interval worked like channel-cast, they could have made it so axes were best with no interval, fists were best with low interval, swords were best with medium interval, polearms best with high interval, and axes were best again with max interval. Instead, we have this broken system where once you get beyond a certain -int value, fists are better, always.

If you don't understand the math involved, please refrain from insulting those of us who do understand. My argument has nothing to do with how much damage melee does compared to casters (which seems to be your fixation). It has to do with how much flexibility both systems give (or don't give) the game designer, and why channeling is a superior system without the mathematical flaws present in the interval system (though as Telarith pointed out, there can be problems in PWE's implementation of the design).

And like I said before, I'll say it again... to all those who whine about interval, including you, after the spark nerf, you'll still be whining about interval.

That's because the spark nerf doesn't fully address the problem. Even with no chi generation while sparked, all other things being equal the melee players who can generate more sparks the quickest are the ones with high APS. Once you get decent interval gear, fast weapons are still preferred over slow weapons. All it does is mitigate the magnitude of the problem; the problem is still there.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

I say we nerf sins in 3 steps

1) 60 second cooldown on demon spark

2) stealth takes up chi

3) play sin russian roulette. Every 6th sin is randomly deleted from the server b:cute

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

You do that almost every post lol. The main issue with -interval is that it disproportionately favors fast weapons for no good reason. Without interval pretty much all physical weapons have similar DPS and that is where they balanced the refine rates. Add in full interval and axes get 50% faster while daggers get 400% faster. This throws off the DPS balance they designed. Ideally -interval would be percentage based so that it preserves the DPS balance between weapons.

I'm still shocked they went with this chi solution since it turns the game into a competition of who can gain chi the fastest unsparked. Sins will win that competition every time. They should have just added a damn cool down to demon spark. That skill is too powerful to have no cool down. Something like a 60 second cooldown would give all classes plenty of time to gather their sparks.

If you look at the grand scheme of things, overall PWI was well researched before it was developed. It's PWE who is to blame for introducing cheap and easy to get interval items after the fact. Interval as it sits was fine before this.

The fact that it disproportionally affects different weapons seems purposely built in. Larger, heavier, longer weapons that have a longer range don't gain as much of a benefit as smaller and lighter weapons that are close and personal. Anyone with a bit of weapons training understands this clearly.

A gun is far more powerful than a knife, but if you have a gun and I pull a knife out at you 15 feet away, I'll most likely be able to stab and kill you before you can even draw the gun, aim and fire. Sorry, inane digressions...

Whether you like those mechanics or not, it's pretty easy to see why they implemented both channeling and interval differently.

And removing chi gain from triple spark is just crippling. I agree it should be something different and a cooldown makes far more sense.

And again, after the nerf, people will still cry about aps.

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

The biggest issue isn't even APS, it's expansions. -Interval was initially balanced in the game long before this version even came here. Don't care about the exact order, but common sense should dictate that by the time someone actually managed 5 APS, they hit endgame. Before that even the unloved classes of the game were in there grinding for gear ups and getting their drops same as the fisters. They get their TT end game, now fisters need to go for lunar. Wizzies could instead do money runs, and refine their gear up. APS finally gets their Deicides, and now do runs to catch up in refines. Both sides should be roughly powered up to equal levels at end game. The APS can now earn faster, but for what? They are at end game. They represent the two different styles of combat; DPH vs. DPS.

Then pops up an expansion with new content, and better gear. Suddenly, that ability to earn faster now pays off. They get the drops faster, easier, and can turn more profit. So what before wasn't unbalanced during creation, is now unbalanced. However, the game as initially set up to be balanced off the base version. So each future expansion will simply keep widening the gap.

The problem is the way the game was designed in the first place. The core of the game. Despite what many may wish, there is no way to wave a magic wand and fix it. They would have to change the very basis of the game, which if done early on in its incarnation wouldn't be so bad. But with expansion after expansion piled on, how can anyone truly believe there is a simple fix to this?

Bravo! Well said.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You're just showing you don't fully understand the consequences of the interval and channeling systems which I've described... *snip*

I actually do understand what you're saying and in theory I don't disagree. (I have paid attention and participated in much of this debate.

To make anything like this happen would take a major rewrite of the code as well as updating multiple items. You might as well open notepad.exe and start writing a new game from scratch, or write a book. It's never, ever going to happen. It's a pipe dream.

That's because the spark nerf doesn't fully address the problem. Even with no chi generation while sparked, all other things being equal the melee players who can generate more sparks the quickest are the ones with high APS. Once you get decent interval gear, fast weapons are still preferred over slow weapons. All it does is mitigate the magnitude of the problem; the problem is still there.

After the nerf, people will complain just the same.

APS is still working as intended. The original developers didn't intend it to be easy though. All you need to do is look at the original requirements for a lunar weapon and a cape.

5APS was absolutely *meant* to be obtained by a few very hard working individuals at some point, however, they never expected it to be given away for $1 or however much a pack costs these days.

The problem is that PWE in their extreme stupidity decided to making tomes and interval gear too easily obtainable.

The damage has already been done and almost all of the possible fixes for this are all too complicated to actually be implemented.

Personally, I'm more favorable to reducing the mdef of bosses and mobs than to continue to mess with PvP balance.

In all honesty, PvP balance is the only thing that really matters when you're tinkering with game mechanics. They have to be much more spot-on than PVE balance, which mostly falls in line with how PvP balance works.

Casters are just not supposed to have the DPS of a melee, and a melee is not supposed to have the range and DPH of a caster. And no matter what you try to do to balance this, someone is going to get screwed.

The real issue is that TB are OP, and until/if ever it gets addressed, the lynch mob will just keep up with the OPQQNERFPLOX attitudes.

After this nerf, all of the APSQQers will still be crying about APS. A bad fix is worse than none...

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

If you look at the grand scheme of things, overall PWI was well researched before it was developed. It's PWE who is to blame for introducing cheap and easy to get interval items after the fact. Interval as it sits was fine before this.

The fact that it disproportionally affects different weapons seems purposely built in. Larger, heavier, longer weapons that have a longer range don't gain as much of a benefit as smaller and lighter weapons that are close and personal. Anyone with a bit of weapons training understands this clearly.

A gun is far more powerful than a knife, but if you have a gun and I pull a knife out at you 15 feet away, I'll most likely be able to stab and kill you before you can even draw the gun, aim and fire. Sorry, inane digressions...

/FACEPALM TIMES INFINITY PLUS ONE

Wow, what weapons training courses have you taken that discuss the effect of -interval gear? Why do you argue such ridiculous things...


Noone is saying short ranged weapons shouldn't be faster. Of course they should, that's stupidly obvious. What doesnt make sense is for the attack speed of of one weapon to quadruple with the exact same gear that makes another weapon go up by 50%. That's flawed design.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

/FACEPALM TIMES INFINITY PLUS ONE

Wow, what weapons training courses have you taken that discuss the effect of -interval gear? Why do you argue such ridiculous things...

That's a bit over the top. You're showing your geekiness dude. lol The ridiculous thing is... with everything the way it is, why do you still play? Why are you still addicted? Just can't let go? lol

And, I did say that was an inane digression. Perhaps that was too adult a puzzle for you... I'll reiterate. It was stupid on my behalf. Thank you for pointing out the obvious. You do that well.

Noone is saying short ranged weapons shouldn't be faster. Of course they should, that's stupidly obvious. What doesnt make sense is for the attack speed of of one weapon to quadruple with the exact same gear that makes another weapon go up by 50%. That's flawed design.

Hmm... I can easily stab/punch 5 hits a second... Let's try swinging an axe twice in a second. lol

I'd actually make an intelligible argument, but dying game is dying. Nothing will really be fixed. It doesn't really matter. People will still complain.

b:victory

Okeano - Harshlands

Non of you see the very very very simple solution to perma 5APS in PvE other than chi nerf? Just make the boss constantly move around. b:bye

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide wrote: »

It's ok my sin is sage b:chuckle

And....? You still won't gain chi while you spark you stupid ****.

//oneo - Harshlands19

The endgame people will only get richer. Good squads can kill bosses in a single spark. Sins can regen chi very easily anyways, and the BM dd is nothing compared to the dd of sins, just a DG hoe.


+ Old news

+ + anyone with half a brain knows money lies in merchanting, not farming.

CessiI - Dreamweaver

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

Hmm... I can easily stab/punch 5 hits a second... Let's try swinging an axe twice in a second. lol

b:victory

are we playing a martial arts simulator, or an MMORPG?

thought so,

MMORPG needs ballance, for equel chances for every class a person desires to play, and to furfill that class his intended role

Okeano - Harshlands

//oneo - Harshlands wrote: »

+ + anyone with half a brain knows money lies in merchanting, not farming.

Because it TOTALLY works if everyone who played just merch'ed, w/o any buyers.

//oneo - Harshlands19

Because everyone in the playerbase reads these forums and will see that one line I wrote and take up merchanting.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

Because it TOTALLY works if everyone who played just merch'ed, w/o any buyers.

rofl

Every single logged in user would be a catshop. Epic!

bandolero360

I feel that this nerf is unfair, obviously the devs want to ease the greiving of casters and other typers of are shunned out by squads segregating them from the APS players, but atleast these players worked for it, or asked mommy and daddy, for these gears so for all of those that worked for it it would be unfair.

But on the other hand by not nerfing the 5 APS people those who don't have it will continue to QQ, but why aim at the specific player base with these abilities. I personally think that instead if targetting the players its the game that should be changed, if you take away 5 aps then 5 aps cries, if you so nothing then non5 aps cries. So why not just change the game to meet the demands of both, for example if 5 aps can do so much damage on a boss while casters tickle it raise the pdef of bosses and lower the mdef, if u want to slow permaspark then put a cooldown on spark , if casters can't keep up with damage of melee tweak a casters damage in PVE or give them something to bring them up and also give bosses more HP since then everyone is doing godly damage.

Of course people still complain that PVE is imbalanced and I'm not going to lie it is, but if a person can work for 5 APS and people complain about them because they are so op in PVE , which is true, "oh QQ", why don't people complain about psychics and wizards who worked for rank9 and can pretty much wreck havoc on anything that can breathe in PVP ? Obviously the game is unbalanced on both ends of the spectrum on PVE a melee with high APS can dominate while in PVP a faster with rank9 can turn you into a pile of dust. But noone complains about the casters.

The developers of this game want a simple one shot fix to the problem, and it can't, and won't be that simple, if melee classes do so much damage then lower the damage in respect to the weapon, a fist should do way less damage than an axe, and a spell is supposed to do the amount of damage these two can do but instead of sustained damage over time they do it in 1 hit- cooldown -1 hit. Also why not limit barbs and archers to axes and bows, respectively. And give a barb the ability to maintain the aggro that APS generates, while cutting down their damage, upping a casters damage and bow damage. Also noone has mentioned how this will **** of clerics since now people gain less HP from bp clerics have to work harder, so I suggest bp gets a rebalance since new instances they can't even cast BB because of AOE seal.

Tl;Dr fix the game not the people , dont nerf a group that worked for something and punish them to benefit others. Everyone deserves an equal chance but that does not mean take away from one and give to the other, this isn't a robin hood story.

Tl;Dr2 casters should be given something that they can say, " Hey I am a caster and I have been upgraded to were this is what I have to offer and it is of equivelant value to that of a melee fighter." Instead what this nerf does is " Hi I am a melee fighter my abilities have been cut back but I know how to compensate that's why you want me more than others."

Metalpuritan - Sanctuary

You all wanna know how to nerf 5 aps? All they got to do is take away jones' Blessing.

With this BM's won't be able to tank any more, 5.0 archers would be so weak thier 5.0 wouldn't even matter, same for 5.0 barbs. And as for sins....lower damage = dead fish.

Fix is simple

get rid of Jones' Blessing = barbs will become barbs again, BMs and sins will become DD again.

I will not be coming back to check as I already read most of this thread, so please feel free to QQ, flame and troll my post.

PS.. I have a sin btw, also taking away Jones' Blessing will make my cleric weaker, but hey, what I wouldn't give to have a normalized game back....

Broederjr - Lost City

Metalpuritan - Sanctuary wrote: »

You all wanna know how to nerf 5 aps? All they got to do is take away jones' Blessing.

With this BM's won't be able to tank any more, 5.0 archers would be so weak thier 5.0 wouldn't even matter, same for 5.0 barbs. And as for sins....lower damage = dead fish.

Fix is simple

get rid of Jones' Blessing = barbs will become barbs again, BMs and sins will become DD again.

I will not be coming back to check as I already read most of this thread, so please feel free to QQ, flame and troll my post.

PS.. I have a sin btw, also taking away Jones' Blessing will make my cleric weaker, but hey, what I wouldn't give to have a normalized game back....

not really but most yea i can solo stuff without blessing and bp but msot common ppl wouldnt tho the fix wouldnt be aps or blessing it would be BP remove it and alot 5.0 cant tank anything its already a fact but removing Bp would only do things for solo farming not for 5aps nv parties

CessiI - Dreamweaver

bandolero360 wrote: »

Also noone has mentioned how this will **** of clerics since now people gain less HP from bp clerics have to work harder, so I suggest bp gets a rebalance since new instances they can't even cast BB because of AOE seal.

er i think that clerics dont care to work harder, they actually CHOSE to be a cleric and heal, and save the day.

BP should have never existed at all

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

Non of you see the very very very simple solution to perma 5APS in PvE other than chi nerf? Just make the boss constantly move around. b:bye



And....? You still won't gain chi while you spark you stupid ****.

5 aps, no need to spark I use Sage Subsea to increase damage taken and allow the Demon apsers to do tons more damage and keep argo so I don't have to repair my gear all the time. Hmmm..... who's the idiot now, dumb demon sin, sins aren't suposed to tank want argo you can have it.

Must - Lost City

Metalpuritan - Sanctuary wrote: »

You all wanna know how to nerf 5 aps? All they got to do is take away jones' Blessing.

With this BM's won't be able to tank any more, 5.0 archers would be so weak thier 5.0 wouldn't even matter, same for 5.0 barbs. And as for sins....lower damage = dead fish.

Fix is simple

get rid of Jones' Blessing = barbs will become barbs again, BMs and sins will become DD again.

I will not be coming back to check as I already read most of this thread, so please feel free to QQ, flame and troll my post.

PS.. I have a sin btw, also taking away Jones' Blessing will make my cleric weaker, but hey, what I wouldn't give to have a normalized game back....

Lol remove bless and bms couldnt tank??? what about tanking with cleric heals OoO, LOL and the funny part is tyhat this post came from a clericb:chuckle

FiveAps - Dreamweaver

Metalpuritan - Sanctuary wrote: »

You all wanna know how to nerf 5 aps? All they got to do is take away jones' Blessing.

With this BM's won't be able to tank any more, 5.0 archers would be so weak thier 5.0 wouldn't even matter, same for 5.0 barbs. And as for sins....lower damage = dead fish.

Fix is simple

get rid of Jones' Blessing = barbs will become barbs again, BMs and sins will become DD again.

I will not be coming back to check as I already read most of this thread, so please feel free to QQ, flame and troll my post.

PS.. I have a sin btw, also taking away Jones' Blessing will make my cleric weaker, but hey, what I wouldn't give to have a normalized game back....

lol, you can't even understand what's wrong with the game.

and yeah, nerf aps now? after what? 2 years? what's that good for? The aps classes already raised caster alts (like any smart aps) and if they bring the casters back in business DD wise, whoever is aps now they'll all be again top dogs. Lol. I know a lot of aps with R9 wizards or Psys and I'm sure this is not just a DW trend.
At least with the current state of game everyone knows making a farming alt is must to have a decent casting toon for PvP/TW.
I for one don't care. Nerf it, don't nerf it ... I have endgame casters, endgame aps. Whatever they change I'm covered.

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear

So i just come back after hearing bunch argue about evolution...
bunch argue about atheist vs religion...
bunch argue about vegetarian...
bunch argue about human soul vs animal soul...
bunch argue about government people...
bunch argue about market inflation...
bunch argue about poor people vs rich people..
bunch argue about pve vs pvp...
bunch argue about *** & **** vs the so called normal people..

....i hate humans argue... most of them are pointless and stupid.. b:shutup

Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary

Did somone seriously just imply that removeing jones bless would be bad for bm's?

Dude the whole damn BM forum would hold a full on party with booze strippers and silly hats.

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide

Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »

Did somone seriously just imply that removeing jones bless would be bad for bm's?

Dude the whole damn BM forum would hold a full on party with booze strippers and silly hats.

That makes me want to roll a BM b:chuckle

FiveAps - Dreamweaver

Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »

Did somone seriously just imply that removeing jones bless would be bad for bm's?

Dude the whole damn BM forum would hold a full on party with booze strippers and silly hats.

gotta keep this for quote.
Best post of the week.

Okeano - Harshlands

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide wrote: »

5 aps, no need to spark I use Sage Subsea to increase damage taken and allow the Demon apsers to do tons more damage and keep argo so I don't have to repair my gear all the time. Hmmm..... who's the idiot now, dumb demon sin, sins aren't suposed to tank want argo you can have it.

Ok...? Your solution to no chi gain during spark is not to spark at all. What does that have to do with being sage? Demon Subsea lasts twice as long so what's stopping a demon Sin not sparking and use Subsea instead? I called you a stupid **** because this issue affects both cult the same and people are acting like morons thinking this is just a nerf to demon spark.

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

Ok...? Your solution to no chi gain during spark is not to spark at all. What does that have to do with being sage? Demon Subsea lasts twice as long so what's stopping a demon Sin not sparking and use Subsea instead? I called you a stupid **** because this issue affects both cult the same and people are acting like morons thinking this is just a nerf to demon spark.

I did not say my solution to no chi gain from normal attacks during spark is to just not spark, I said I perfer to Subsea and let others do lots of damage. Learn to read please, I already rarely spark, and when I do, I hit wolf (before spark), (then after spark) inner harmony, subsea - then normal attack sometimes most times I spam skills cause I don't want to steal argo when I spark, because I will and I perfer a 2k repair bill per fc/nirvana/delta/bh whatever I am doing at the time to a 30k-90k repair bill I get when I have argo.

So please please learn to think.

Okeano - Harshlands

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide wrote: »

I did not say my solution to no chi gain from normal attacks during spark is to just not spark, I said I perfer to Subsea and let others do lots of damage. Learn to read please, I already rarely spark, and when I do, I hit wolf (before spark), (then after spark) inner harmony, subsea - then normal attack sometimes most times I spam skills cause I don't want to steal argo when I spark, because I will and I perfer a 2k repair bill per fc/nirvana/delta/bh whatever I am doing at the time to a 30k-90k repair bill I get when I have argo.

So please please learn to think.

Once again, what's this have to do with being sage?

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide wrote: »

It's ok my sin is sage b:chuckle

So please please learn to think. b:bye

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

Once again, what's this have to do with being sage?


So please please learn to think. b:bye

You obviously can't think things through so I will spell it out for you I DON'T USE SPARK TO GAIN CHI DON'T NEED TOO.

Is that simple enough for you.