Small change to 5.0

Okeano - Harshlands

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide wrote: »

You obviously can't think things through so I will spell it out for you I DON'T USE SPARK TO GAIN CHI DON'T NEED TOO.

Is that simple enough for you.

Neither does a demon Sin? If he chose to just do what you do with your Sin.

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide

Yes a demon sin can do the same thing and very successfuly as well. Never said they couldn't.

Ikarium - Dreamweaver

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide wrote: »

when I have argo.

Where do you get 6x6 all terrain off road vehicles in PWI?

Traz - Dreamweaver

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

Once again, what's this have to do with being sage?


So please please learn to think. b:bye

I say we demand a petition for and IQ test before players are allowed to play. b:cry

Okeano - Harshlands

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yes a demon sin can do the same thing and very successfuly as well. Never said they couldn't.

So then what's the point of your initial post?

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide

That I don't need spark to gain chi or to be 5 aps. God you are dense.

Okeano - Harshlands

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide wrote: »

That I don't need spark to gain chi or to be 5 aps. God you are dense.

You really don't see it? A demon Sin doesn't need spark to gain chi or be 5 APS either. so instead of

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide wrote: »

It's ok my sin is sage b:chuckle

It should have been

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide wrote: »

It's ok my sin is a sin b:chuckle

Traz - Dreamweaver

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

You really don't see it? A demon Sin doesn't need spark to gain chi or be 5 APS either. so instead of


It should have been

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide wrote: »

It's ok my sin is high aps

* /chars

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide

I said sage because 1) my sin is a sage and 2) most demons I know are 5aps only because of demon spark. Useful yes, but if chi is nerfed it would change things for them, like they may actually have to use their genie b:chuckle or get more aps gear.

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide

And Traz try reading my other posts, I already said it didn't matter demon/sage

Traz - Dreamweaver

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide wrote: »

And Traz try reading my other posts, I already said it didn't matter demon/sage

I don't care to read anything idiots post, luckily I only noticed my name in that post or my IQ may have dropped.

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide

Well if you don't bother reading anything idiots post you must be an idiot cause you have replied to 2 of my posts now. Point is don't just jump into the middle of a thread and post while having no clue as to what has or hasn't been said.

That makes you the idiot.

Okeano - Harshlands

My IQ already dropped a few points from this, moving on.

GoodStart - Dreamweaver

Simmer down ladies, you're ALL idiots.


b:kissb:bye

Envelope - Raging Tide

After reading 30 pages of this, i feel like saying something... i might be wrong and if so i apologize. But i think that both developers and the players might be missing the whole point of the 5 aps problem. I'd like to ask: Why is 5 aps a problem for the game? Some people might say: "Because it is overpowered" though, that's not quite it. The reason why 5 aps is causing so much trouble is that, as the game is now, it is required to farm gear. However, getting to 5 aps is very expensive, and not everyone has an equal chance to get it - not to mention the fact that not all classes are equally suited for aps so if the class you like best happens to be a wizard, you need to make and level a new character first.

Farming your gear without being aps is possible in theory, yes. But by now everyone should have realized that the amount of time you'd need to invest in that would be so huge it doesn't seem to be possible for mortal humans. So you need to get at least one of your chars aps gear to farm for all of your other chars - and if you don't have the money to make at least one char high aps by now you're in deep trouble.

As interval gear became more available over time and some of the instances becoming harder for normal squads, while more and higher grade gear had been added, a divide started to go through the game - between the players being able to afford aps gears, and those who can't. I think this is the core of the problem. If interval gear was cheap people would not complain about 5 aps being OP in pve, at least not to this extent.

People are now trying to fix the problem by nerfing aps, though everything that is done about it seems to create other problems instead. Maybe - this is what has been on my mind for quite a while now - it would be better to approach the problem from a different direction: Not by nerfing aps, but to make high-end gear easier to obtain. "Easier" does not mean cheaper. It means gear you obtain not with money, but with a certain amount of in-game accomplishments, independent of real money, ingame money or fluctuations in in-game economy. Take the rings from the level 100 public quest, for example. You do the quest a certain amount of times, you get the ring as a reward. Same goes for the attendance rings, divine quests and, to a certain degree, also for the cube necklace, warsong belts and the trophy mode rewards. It shouldn't be too hard to extend this. Let's say we add a whole set of gear to the PQ3 or the attendance sheet rewards - why not? It would require a certain amount of time to do, not much more. By doing so people woule be less dependant on high aps squads to get their gear, and changes to the in-game economy would have a less devastating impact.

What i'm trying to say is that you might as well offer people OP gears directly from the cash shop, or from whatever packs you like, or offer them items to get their gear together within a couple of days if they have alot of money - as long as you provide the players with less money with a real alternative. Introducing the DQ point system was a very good idea in my opinion, but the problem about gear being too hard to obtain for non-cs'ers and low-budget-cs'ers is still remaining.

I am aware that ideas like that can have unexpected side effects, therefore it might be wrong to do it exactly like this. But i still think that it would be better to work on the problem this way rather than trying to mess with the aps system that has been around for such a long time now. The whole thing about not gaining chi with normal hits during 3 spark won't really change anything fundamental, it just serves to make people upset. And i agree that a cooldown on 3-spark would make more sense than reducing the chi gained while sparked, anyway.

PS.: Holy ****, while i wrote this the thread increased by 2 pages... god i'm so slow b:surrender

ZoracGallant - Raging Tide

It's a good idea Envelope, but one that probably won't happen. Why the devs wouldn't do such a thing as add good balanced content such as you suggest to the game is beyond any of us mortals. But still a wonderful idea and we can all keep hoping.

Ikarium - Dreamweaver

Envelope - Raging Tide wrote: »

The reason why 5 aps is causing so much trouble is that, as the game is now, it is required to farm gear.

No, this is wrong.
Any APS is NOT 'required' for anything, at all. 'Required' implies that the game is designed that way, that you must have APS characters to do instances, quests, etc...
It simply is not. Even the biggest "APS requiring" instance, the original Nirvana, does not actually require it at all. You could run it just fine without, just take longer is all.
It is the impatient playerbase that requires APS, not the game. There is a big difference.

Traz - Dreamweaver

Ikarium - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No, this is wrong.
Any APS is NOT 'required' for anything, at all. 'Required' implies that the game is designed that way, that you must have APS characters to do instances, quests, etc...
It simply is not. Even the biggest "APS requiring" instance, the original Nirvana, does not actually require it at all. You could run it just fine without, just take longer is all.
It is the impatient playerbase that requires APS, not the game. There is a big difference.

I personally don't like you calling me impatient. It's not my fault designers and marketing teams have made the cost of replacing my daggers roughly 1.5 billion coins. My wife and I have worked our ***** off duo'ing nirvy/TT3-3 to get enough coin (about 3 billion) to replace our 2 end game weapons (G13s +12 had for awhile). The blame is full on square with the designers and marketing teams.

AND on top of this I dare not spend 3 billion on just 2 of our end game weapons (let alone armor) due to this r8 reforging buzz. No chance in hell I'm making G15 dags for my wife and getting r9 dags for my sin until I see what all this fuss is about because I'll be hell if I spend 2-3 months of work just to see r8 turns out to be a much better choice. Reports I've seen between friends and threads on here have mixed results, but to hell if I waste that much time and r8 is a better option. Apparently the devs don't realize that it takes the two of us (even being able to duo everything) about a months worth of 2x to even remotely come close to replacing just one persons weapons. I've also started to merchanted my *** off and we are about 2 billion in (minus going from +10 to +12 on both our mains weapons from the sale). I do feel bad for AA in this game which is why I try and take them along as much as I can, but if a squad of 2 takes 2 months of work everyone can do the math on how long a squad of 6 would take, and that's sadly just for a weapon.

Ikarium - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I personally don't like you calling me impatient. Is it really my fault that to replace my daggers it will cost me roughly 1.5 billion coins? My wife and I have worked our ***** off duo'ing nirvy/TT3-3 to get enough coin (about 3 billion) to replace just 2 end game weapons. You want to blame someone blame the designers and marketing teams for putting orbs on such crazy sales.

I wasn't blaming anyone <.<
I have 2 APS characters myself, and have also worked my *** off farming for them. While using them in turn to farm out gear for non-APS characters. Which probably makes me part of the 'problem' people so describe.

In general though, what I say is true. The game itself does not require APS for anything. Its the playerbase that has done this.

FiveAps - Dreamweaver

cool, let's get rid of the player base then!



... oh, wait....

no, it's the game faulty mechanic that was not designed for so much aps gear to be even available initially. But the dumb devs that bought the game from Archosaur didn't really understood the game engine limitations, they just got in and added "cool stuff" with stats added to grab the attention of cash shoppers.

Don't forget, aps is good for business. They actually survived 2 years based on aps. Now almost everyone has aps chars for farming. I'm actually curious what they come up with next? Nerf aps and replace it with what? I has to be something at least that good, or the revenue will go down.

CessiI - Dreamweaver

first of all, aps was NEVER needed in this game.

i would not shed a tear if they nerf APS to the ground, even tho i have a 5.0 char

5.00 aps should have never existed

5 aps ruined the game more then most peaple think, but the thing it killed the most, is the enjoyable teamwork, and grouping up.

an MMORPG full with solo farmers,, if i want to solo a game , il play one of the FF series, not an MMO

i simply weant APS couse,, well i pretty much had no choice , otherwise i could not keep up. and i hate it

Olbaze - Sanctuary

CessiI - Dreamweaver wrote: »

first of all, aps was NEVER needed in this game.

i would not shed a tear if they nerf APS to the ground, even tho i have a 5.0 char

5.00 aps should have never existed

If you were to take out everything you get from packs, you'd still be left with TT100 fists, TM capes, Pan Gu tomes, TT99 armors and ornaments and Nirvana leggings. Obviously, pre-packs, a lot of these were unrealistic options (TT100) or not even implemented (TM, Pan Gu Tome, Nirvana).

A friend of mine, who is currently a 5.0 aps BM, was actually a fist BM pre-packs. It's actually not that bad of a build. For example, here's a potential pre-pack Archer and a pre-pack fist BM:

Archer at 10,591 dps
BM at 10,204 dps

It's also notable that the BM would still obviously maintain the usual BM roles, so they would be more desirable than the Archer.

5 aps ruined the game more then most peaple think, but the thing it killed the most, is the enjoyable teamwork, and grouping up.

Who knows. I didn't really like playing my Archer when I knew that unless I went to a TT with friends or faction, I would come out of it with mats that wouldn't be worth jack because the barb and cleric got all the best stuffs and then there's the whole thing with subbing and the fact that the rest of the drops were given to the DDs in order of level.

an MMORPG full with solo farmers,, if i want to solo a game , il play one of the FF series, not an MMO

If you want to see a MMORPG concept done in a solo game, try Final Fantasy XII. It's literally got everything set up like an MMORPG, with bosses, random spawns, no random encounters, chests having random items in them. Really, it's not nice trying to get the best shield in the game when you have to run to the same chest potentially hundreds of times and reset to menu everytime you don't get it. Or how some of the best weapons in that game would make farming TT stuffs look like a pleasurable, easy task.

Nightsfangs - Archosaur

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

@ Traz : You may have zapped the era on forums where many were prooving how fists were the best dps weapon even considering no -int gear, and thus the best choice from lvl29 on. Besides, isn't it pwi who implemented more and more -int gear? Which is the same as changing chi gain. I also believe they changed chi gain before. Not 100% sure though, on barb that wasn't noticeable at that time.

I do agree that the main stress ingame is to do things as fast as possible. And that is the point : The fastest way might not be the same way as it was before. Problem is, usually 1 idea gets so fixed in the minds and drawn to unreasonable proportions, that new visions have trouble to see the day. You see it different it seems, but for me the whole aps thing never been something different from all the other "hypes" there were before. From the all epic axe bm, to the wizzie must be LA, to the reign of att/def lvl shards : For me it's all just a hyperfocus on some build after seeing the example of 1 person who managed something new and epic. New rules, in the form of game change or gear evolution discovered by someone else, will reshuffle and bring the new hype.

Ofc, that's just a vision. Feel free not to agree :P

So u say Kasparov should play a new rules chess, only cause he's overpowered in the one existing, sooo many LoLzzz.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Nightsfangs - Archosaur wrote: »

So u say Kasparov should play a new rules chess, only cause he's overpowered in the one existing, sooo many LoLzzz.

Kasparov lost to Deep Blue. He also lost to various human players. Just because he's pretty much the name when it comes to professional chess players doesn't somehow make him an unbeatable god.

Please, if you're going to use a metaphor, make sure it works.

b:cute

Nightsfangs - Archosaur

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Kasparov lost to Deep Blue. He also lost to various human players. Just because he's pretty much the name when it comes to professional chess players doesn't somehow make him an unbeatable god.

Please, if you're going to use a metaphor, make sure it works.

b:cute

Everybody loses eventually, so u r point is?


The point I wanted to make and u might misundertood is

either way in all games there is something that work better than others, u nerf that and something else will be found OP eventually, nerfing is not the way things should be doing.
Y aps is OP, but I don 't complain about it, that 's the game as it is now.
He said about changing the rules, why?
Nerfing aps at my point of view just founds servers with more r9 and eventually r10(when released) if by jail glich more ppl manage to get to 105.
It 's not aps PWI wants to nerf, it 's the abillity to farm (TTs are lot harder, drop rates nerfed), so U end up pay ur way to get gears.

Anyway, sins will always be solo, without even noticing pwi made us sins this way, that won 't change. I just don 't like those effortless ways of doing things, this won 't benrfit anyone, aps will still be the top classes and most likely acceptable in nirvana squads, end of story.

Everybody roled a sin or any other aps class to do so.

What 's the point in this lousy attemp to nerf aps this way LoLzzzzzzz
That 's the point I wanted to make.

Nightsfangs - Archosaur

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Kasparov lost to Deep Blue. He also lost to various human players. Just because he's pretty much the name when it comes to professional chess players doesn't somehow make him an unbeatable god.

Please, if you're going to use a metaphor, make sure it works.

b:cute

Also who said 5 aps ppl are unbeatable?

SpiderBait_x - Lost City

i dont know if this was alrdy said or not because to be honest i got sick of reading the same **** posted by hundreds of ppl repeatedly,

My opinion on this is. gee, wow.. its not the 'End' of Aps farming, Yea its gonna hurt solo farming alot for every1 but sins, but for when your squaded.. Spammng nirv in x2 etc
its not like it takes any of you long to build chi with 3.33 base after spark ends.. and aswell as that, 5-6 of you triple sparking on a HF its not like the boss lives that long anyway.. so time your sparks with HF better, spend those xtra 15 seconds after spark ends to get chi back..
wow 15 secs longer omg the world is gonna end... jesus stop freaking out its not that bad

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

SpiderBait_x - Lost City wrote: »

so time your sparks with HF better, spend those xtra 15 seconds after spark ends to get chi back..
wow 15 secs longer omg the world is gonna end... jesus stop freaking out its not that bad

haha 15 secs means they don't get to do it again cuz the boss is dead already. b:chuckle

Seriously though, APS has made the game much less enjoyable for the general populace. Anything that makes it harder for solo farming and 5.0 squads is a good thing. This is an MMO after all.

Ichibankai - Lost City

i havent read the whole thread but you know something it mainly demon sparkers that are rageing about this but i look at it from my sage point of view if it only does it to spark, a bm with sage heel who is 5.0 after heal wouldnt mind which i never spark much on bm and sages get 20 seconds of aps ....idk just somethign i wanted to mention. i shush nowb:shutup