The Chinese Servers got Server Merges. Why can't we?

Sadly this thraed was going somewhere with actual sane arguements.

Then some nobody who has proofless claims at being a pro continues posting garbage just to get some perverted pleasure of being an ****??

Fail Troll is fail no matter what version they "claim" to have come from.

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Yes, that was my point. You put a blanket statement saying TW changes didn't affect anything, that it was all imagination. That's not true, it affected TW greatly. Perhaps it hasn't affected you directly, but it still affects a lot of people. The same with the DQ nerf. It didn't do anything to me, but just because it doesn't affect me at all, I do see the people that it has affected. That's what I meant about differentiating between fact or opinion.

Most of the times you would be right. Most of those threads disappear in a day or two as well. When you see topics that outrage enough people to keep a thread reach a couple hundred pages, there's a good chance that there really is an issue that affects more than just a few people.

Of course it affects everyone I never claimed it didn't I was saying that its being blown out of proportion and is not as relevant as they are making it. Oh right that 79 thing went on for a awhile you know thats a issue still?

How is merging servers going to fix anything?
1- Everyone conquers PVE land in 1-2 weeks. 2 because of greedy fake bidders.
2- Everyone stops defending when they know a stronger faction is going to attack since it's not worth the money just to lose.
3- Eventually back at where we are now.

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

My argument was;
A)Whatever happens to TW is no excuse to demand server merges.
B)Arguments should at least be founded on empirical evidence, not dogma, the OP provided none.
C)Experience from other MMOs does show server merges do not improve the game for most users.
E)Were the OP's assertions proven right it would be more profitable to quit the game than to demand changes.
l2read noob.

You provided nothing as well. You're really going to make me do this aren't you?

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Ok, seriously, you cannot base a large part of your argument for server merges on freaking TW. It was always an elitist activity. At the height of the whole thing (before the maps were overwhelmed by a single color) what percentage of a server's population do you think was actually involved? How many of those actually got to TW regularly? I realize TW is a very important part of the game for many people, but it is conceited to believe its demise impacts a majority of players. It doesn't. TW's importance is largely blown out of proportion because it is an aspiration for many, but the reality is most players will not actually get to experience it. You're asking for server merges to benefit how many? Freaking 5% of the playerbase?

Condensed:

TW means nothing to most people. People are elitist. What percentage of people actually TW, notice it's a question, even you have no clue. Nobody said it impacts a majority of the players. Just a large percentage of people that have already finished most of the game. Then you go on to make a guesstimate with absolutely no base for your made up percentage which doesn't really matter, only the fact that TW has been broken for a large segment of the server's population.

As for the declining population argument, just exactly how do you know? Yes, questing spots do seem emptier but with the majority of players leveling mostly through BH this is hardly evidence of anything. Does Archo seem less empty than it used to be? World Chat any less busy? Is the supply of gold entering the servers diminished? And are you accounting for seasonal variations? Yes, finding a Barb or Cleric may seem overly difficult but it was actually never easy, and TB made things worse as the game was already imbalanced from the start when it comes to classes. Now, with most people doing primarily instances all day, demand for these classes has soared. And i want to make this clear, i'm not saying that the server's populations are not in fact diminished, but you can't simply throw that around as established fact. High levels are quitting the game? It happens, especially when you've been at that range for half a year with almost no content ,and no chance of competing with the top tier elite of heavy CSers and merchants dominating the field...

Condensed:

What is the population? You don't know. What about gold? You don't know. Can't find people, they're in instances, it doesn't mean there are more or less players (speculation). You don't know. High level players quitting? You don't know. QQ about merchants and cash shoppers.

The bottomline is wether servers remain profitable for the company and given the numbers of tokens you can find for sale in Westie i say they're raking in the cash. Even if this is just the heavy spenders the argument remains there is no incentive for PWI to change the current status quo, especially with what must be the most profitable quarter of the year coming up.

Ok, you have a point, however profitability doesn't matter concerning what the actual players think of the game. People will still play, people will still spend money. Your point has no real validity to the argument at hand.

And server merges do indicate a dying game, i take it as bad news for this game's future that China has done it twice (not to nitpick but can we have the source on that?) as it is precisely that market that drives further development. Most people will not simply hapily accept merges, many will quit through the first three months and the inflow of new players will be severely curtailed. And you need the new players since many people will be leaving the game anyway for whatever reasons. MMOs only merge servers when they absolutely have no other options. I would like you to imagine the state of the merged servers 6 months down the line... And here is another bit of sad news, PvP servers are always the first to go, this game got started with just 1 West Coast PvP server and it is likely it will return to just that since Euros have never been a priority and the company is based in California... Go take a look at the history of other MMOs, PvP is considered a niche and is not unusual for many games to close as many, if not more, PvP servers as they do PvE even with original ratios 1 PvP to 3-4 PvE. This is all wishful thinking...

Condensed:

Server merges indicate dying game... China HAS already done that, TWICE. source Conjecture about players quitting as well as new players joining. QQ about PvP servers, though this thread was started by a PvE player, your point is moot.

Blah blah blah, you're an idot.

My argument was;
A)Whatever happens to TW is no excuse to demand server merges.
B)Arguments should at least be founded on empirical evidence, not dogma, the OP provided none.
C)Experience from other MMOs does show server merges do not improve the game for most users.
E)Were the OP's assertions proven right it would be more profitable to quit the game than to demand changes.

A) You did not make that argument. FAIL.
You provided no solid proof. Hypocrite? FAIL
C) If the game is dying, server merges would improve the game for most users. FAIL
D) You don't know your alphabet there is no D in your points. Idiot. FAIL
E) The OP's assertions were opinionary, and he backed his opinion with his thoughts.

You hardly know me at all if you think i'm not enjoying this.

I know you enough from reading your tripe that you're not as intelligent as you think. What more do I need to know?

Unlike others i don't pretend to hold the absolute truth to anything, you obviously have mistaken sense with ignorance. And seeing as i mostly play in PUGs with people leveling up, i actually have good reason to say i have a better understanding on who the new players on my server are and what circumstances they endure that, say, a high level that spends most of his time exclusively squading with guildies.

Oh, you point the 'you don't know me' card but you play it yourself? Hypocrite.

It wasn't QQ, i was insulting you. If you can't tell the difference you probably do have some serious social issues.

I would be insulted if I found your intellectual capacity to be anywhere near mine. You're like a monkey who likes to throw poo at people pointing fingers at them in the zoo. Nothing more.


b:bye

Server merge.. sure why not.

At least give us cross server PK tournaments (CN has those as well I believe).

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Convince me that the game is not dying. The game engine is outdated, there is no significant end-game content, TW is now broken, new players will be forced to cash shop 99 armor so they can get Nirvana. Farming for coin has been killed for the lowbies (dq nerf) for the mid-levels (mid-mats worthless due to tokens), high levels (high mats and green mats worthless due to tokens and 2x and overfarming), end-game (3-x nerf makes it unrealistic to farm). Sure 3-x is still doable, but you're not going to be running it to farm for coin. This is a bad thing for both players wanting the mats and those farming it for money.

Worthy goals that can be accomplished are what kept most of the players here from Oct 08. Most of them are ready to quit. In a faction of 150+ lvl 100's, most of them are ready to leave and are only staying because of the time and money they've already invested and the large group of friends they've made. If it were not for this, most of us would already have left.

Server merges would **** a lot of people off, and I was one of the people that was very vehemently against it only a few months back. So much has changed and the proverbial end actually seems near (I wasn't one of those 'omg annipacks the game is dead people') add to the fact that a few actual amazing next gen games are coming out soon, the lifespan of PWI has been dramatically reduced by devs wanting to milk every last cent from it before everyone realizes that it's not really worth playing anymore.

If you don't believe me, look at any of the recent "would you suggest this game to a friend" thread now, then look for one a year ago. You'll see vastly different reactions.

b:bye

Quoted for Truth!

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Oh I missed a paragraph...

This is the only paragraph I actually see anything worth responding to in detail.

Convince me that the game is not dying. The game engine is outdated, there is no significant end-game content, TW is now broken, new players will be forced to cash shop 99 armor so they can get Nirvana. Farming for coin has been killed for the lowbies (dq nerf) for the mid-levels (mid-mats worthless due to tokens), high levels (high mats and green mats worthless due to tokens and 2x and overfarming), end-game (3-x nerf makes it unrealistic to farm). Sure 3-x is still doable, but you're not going to be running it to farm for coin. This is a bad thing for both players wanting the mats and those farming it for money.

Worthy goals that can be accomplished are what kept most of the players here from Oct 08. Most of them are ready to quit. In a faction of 150+ lvl 100's, most of them are ready to leave and are only staying because of the time and money they've already invested and the large group of friends they've made. If it were not for this, most of us would already have left.

Server merges would **** a lot of people off, and I was one of the people that was very vehemently against it only a few months back. So much has changed and the proverbial end actually seems near (I wasn't one of those 'omg annipacks the game is dead people') add to the fact that a few actual amazing next gen games are coming out soon, the lifespan of PWI has been dramatically reduced by devs wanting to milk every last cent from it before everyone realizes that it's not really worth playing anymore.

If you don't believe me, look at any of the recent "would you suggest this game to a friend" thread now, then look for one a year ago. You'll see vastly different reactions.

b:bye

Oh, and regarding this, you're actually making an argument here. You may be right and i won't dispute your reasons. This was not what the OP wrote nor what i was responding to however...

Good luck on your new game, don't let the door hit you on the way out. b:bye

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Convince me that the game is not dying. The game engine is outdated, there is no significant end-game content, TW is now broken, new players will be forced to cash shop 99 armor so they can get Nirvana. Farming for coin has been killed for the lowbies (dq nerf) for the mid-levels (mid-mats worthless due to tokens), high levels (high mats and green mats worthless due to tokens and 2x and overfarming), end-game (3-x nerf makes it unrealistic to farm). Sure 3-x is still doable, but you're not going to be running it to farm for coin. This is a bad thing for both players wanting the mats and those farming it for money.

It was already super difficult on the older servers (I bode form HT) when it took me 2 months of farming Nectars and re-selling to catshops to make 10 mil. I use my veno to grind on Arch server for hays and other crafting mats that still manage to sell well enough to make a veno worth raising for the moment. And Arch server is one of the worst hit by the TT update-now, anyone who wants their TT 99 armor or even their TT 90 chest piece have to rely on our top players in the faction to farm it for them, which puts uneeded stress on their already cramped playtime doing BH Warsong/Nirvana etc. There is no incentive to buy a herc because you can't solo farm the mats that make the most money-hence we have no real stable TT market on Arch-meaning everyone who isn't in the top factions will suffer because they don't have the geared players to farm the instances. Drops were still disgusting so that even venos who invested the 200$ would still get annoyed when no GBA's dropped after 5 runs. There has been no incentive to farm and even now more so because you can get the same results now with more charm destruction, squad wipes exp loss and all around headache. I am disappointed that everyone thinks its just the older servers who suffer form a lack of TW competition-Arch has already mass QQ rage quits due to the very reasons of no competition etc.

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Worthy goals that can be accomplished are what kept most of the players here from Oct 08. Most of them are ready to quit. In a faction of 150+ lvl 100's, most of them are ready to leave and are only staying because of the time and money they've already invested and the large group of friends they've made. If it were not for this, most of us would already have left.

Server merges would **** a lot of people off, and I was one of the people that was very vehemently against it only a few months back. So much has changed and the proverbial end actually seems near (I wasn't one of those 'omg annipacks the game is dead people') add to the fact that a few actual amazing next gen games are coming out soon, the lifespan of PWI has been dramatically reduced by devs wanting to milk every last cent from it before everyone realizes that it's not really worth playing anymore.

If you don't believe me, look at any of the recent "would you suggest this game to a friend" thread now, then look for one a year ago. You'll see vastly different reactions.

b:bye

This process has happened on Arch server with the hyper introduction and the BH craze as well as the oracle sale that happened so conveniently at the opening of the server, but it has been accelerated to the point of unhealthyness. I can not produce exact numbers server wide but I can give you numbers of people who quit our faction due to a "split" to "create competition" which died because there was no incentives to continue (we kind of beat them with sticks back into SZ however whenever they walked out so perhaps that attributed to some of the lack luster) And now we have another small faction trying to "go big" but with the payout for TW being so low, Im not sure how well their non CS members can live.

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

You idiotic troll, you speak for no one but yourself and i could care less that you get your kicks being on a "top" faction ganking the "second best guild" regularly. You're nothing but a bully both ingame and on forums. I guess you might as well come clean about how many heavy spenders you cybered to get your gear while you were oracling your way up, then again, you're likely the kind that likes to talk dirty to 14 year old girls... But of course, being a no lifer (and your continued pressence in forums while leveling over a 100 suggests nothing else) you must feel "entitled" to "your" game. Yea, you know just exactly what is better for the rest of us, don't you? TW must be vital even to those of us who actually go to pubs on weekend nights to meet our irl friends and will never be able to fully participate on an activity that would require us to sacrifice even a small part of our SOCIAL life.

Just because people aren't actually being actively voicing themselves as Dark is don't mean there's people who actually agree-just they choose not to scream their heads off at every opportunity. (BTW show me these sugar girls I need some of that CS loving *shifty eyes* I did read everything else I just thought to poke a bit of fun in the stuff that's red b:chuckle)

I wouldn't say keep the TW pay as high but reduction of about half is a bit better than a reduction down to mirages and a chance at a rank 9 token that you'd still need general summer's tokens for (which costs 9999 chips per token and you need 35 (?)0 I believe). I liked how my TW pay kept me from CSing and I think its not so much the "power"people held in the money-more of "we can't have people riding though the game non-csing due to the 10 mil a week the leader will proportion out correctly with enough left over to TW with" The TW pay allowed me to actually buy gold from the Gold Market-meaning I, in my own small way, was sustaining the economics of the game. I'm sure I'm not the only one on Arch who bought gold willingly with TW pay to buy things form the boutique such as fash, packs etc. I really think that people severely blow out of proportion how so called "elite" TW is and how you're punishing those who are at the top because they worked their butts off to get there. That being said, I would appreciate no one rebuttling with that added argument of "CSers can spend their money as they please as well, why hate on them because they keep your game free"-I have my issues when they wave their 46 dollars in my face over virtual fashion when they could have used that money for some padded bras to fill themselves out. b:surrender

But I digress-my beef is with arrogant CSers who will be "elitist" about their gear simply because they got it faster. That's really all they have vs. those of us who work for what we earned. The TW pay allowed someone like me who had no real chance on HT to have a small boost to what I could do-my horizons were drastically expanded because I had the same power to create my char to her full potential just as good as any CSer with the proper time, effort and continuing attendance/leveling/participation. I like having my "no life" because at least I dont run into people who will cause me sever problems otherwise. With how crazy the regular world is, the craziness of PWI is something "normal" to look forward to when I log on.

Just to re cap-TW does have more of an influence on economics, more so than you think. Because on HT when I joined it, the markets were set and the trade flowed because the land holders were pumping money though the catshop/gold system. And the health of TW determined the prices on things because when you think about it-if someone wants to hide their build (ie. HA/LA veno, HA sin etc.) what do they need for it? Fash. They go out and use their TW money for gold to get fash, since why would they touch their own hard earned coin when they have the rewards form holding land to do so? They WC buying gold outside of AH (have the person buy the fash and then trade the fash for the coin with no fees) or arrange for someone to dump gold in there and they buy it out. It puts coin into the gold sellers pocket and fash into the hands of the customer who perhaps couldn't CS as much or at all. And the market continues freely, buying selling and trading and while the prices are set to a certain degree, its because people had that coin coming in in generous amounts and they were able to keep the economy moving.

Nowadays I'm very very reluctant to buy gold and I keep seeing the same pile of gold for days on end and I have little to no money to really throw around. So please, don't point the fingers at these older servers (as in oh they're QQing because they have no competion)-when Arch people actually step out of the bubble mess we're in to talk we have exactly the same issues, just on a more painful scale.

Cross server TW I hope would have actual coin rewards if they were to implement it, so it gets the old feel of "back in the day" as well as encouraging new faction on individual servers to step up their game to compete in a sort of "TW tourney" if you will. I actually like this idea alot.

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Oh, and regarding this, you're actually making an argument here. You may be right and i won't dispute your reasons. This was not what the OP wrote nor what i was responding to however...

Good luck on your new game, don't let the door hit you on the way out. b:bye

I'm responding to the part of your post that actually had something worth replying to. The rest offered nothing significant.

b:bye

If the problem with TW is that people don't want to TW, then a server merge might help temporarily by injecting some new excitement and fresh faces to the PvP mix, but it wouldn't solve the problem in the long term.

A server merge is a big deal-- it is a major logistical undertaking which, due to the risks involved, would require a very good reason to implement. As we continue to monitor TW, if we do come to the conclusion that they need to be tweaked, I'm sure we can come up with a longer-lasting and far less tumultuous solution than a server merge.

FatherTed - Dreamweaver wrote: »

if they can wipe a TW map I'll eat my hat.

MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »

Me has a 2 rather simple ideas how the map could be wiped.
1st idea: Convince the local coders to wipe teh map through donuts + coffee or something.
b:avoid

2nd idea:
Just make a GM only faction (Me suppose one ban hamster could be enough though.)
Use GM gear to om nom nom the entire map in a few weeks.
Disband
???
Profit.
b:avoid

But no wipe for you~
(>.<)

FatherTed has to eated his hat now?
b:chuckle

Oh I'm not sure why people are so amazed that TW and a lot of PvP action is declining -- not that it was that much before to begin with. People don't like to go against uber people, plain and simple.

Oh you just got that uber piece of gear you've been farming/cash-shopping? Congrats you just made more people not wanna fight you. Don't complain. b:bye

With TW it's different -- it's more because of the sheep effect, since it's about average numbers more than few uber (or cash shopped) people. So it would sound like this:

Oh you just got that in that big faction? Congrats you just made more factions not wanna fight you. Don't complain. b:bye

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

end-game (3-x nerf makes it unrealistic to farm). Sure 3-x is still doable, but you're not going to be running it to farm for coin. This is a bad thing for both players wanting the mats and those farming it for money.

I knew you would be butthurt over it since it was your proud source of income you've been boasting around by making so many millions and **** like that.

Now you gotta work hard like the rest of us (i.e what you were preaching to us) with little worth to a run and you QQ about it killing the game -- no, this type of "hard work" and "barely worth it" stuff was already for 90% of the players, and we complained before only to get you telling your moronic remarks to "work harder" and "don't expect instant gratification".

I wish you actually rolled a wiz from day 1 since you believe they are so ubertastic and overpowered anyway... then see what "barely worth it hard work" really actually means, instead of soloing an instance that you know wasn't supposed to be soloed.

If this barely worth hard work didn't kill game before, no reason it would kill it now. 3-x was NOT an endgame farming for coin. It was only for abusing people like you with -interval. Now you QQ about it killing the game? Good at least you learn to experience what you preach. b:pleased


Work harder! You want instant gratification you noob. Go with full squads and get a gold mat (for yourself) per month. That's too easy anyway even, it should be harder! b:chuckle /sarcasm

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

I knew you would be butthurt over it since it was your proud source of income you've been boasting around by making so many millions and **** like that.

Now you gotta work hard like the rest of us (i.e what you were preaching to us) with little worth to a run and you QQ about it killing the game -- no, this type of "hard work" and "barely worth it" stuff was already for 90% of the players, and we complained before only to get you telling your moronic remarks to "work harder" and "don't expect instant gratification".

I wish you actually rolled a wiz from day 1 since you believe they are so ubertastic and overpowered anyway... then see what "barely worth it hard work" really actually means, instead of soloing an instance that you know wasn't supposed to be soloed.

If this barely worth hard work didn't kill game before, no reason it would kill it now. 3-x was NOT an endgame farming for coin. It was only for abusing people like you with -interval. Now you QQ about it killing the game? Good at least you learn to experience what you preach. b:pleased


Work harder! You want instant gratification you noob. Go with full squads and get a gold mat (for yourself) per month. That's too easy anyway even, it should be harder! b:chuckle /sarcasm

Er...he never said anything about soloing it-even fist BMs/Sins can't do that stuff solo not without dying or accruing alot of pot/repair/charm cost (and some bosses would have to be skipped of course) EDIT-Actually I just reread that bolded part and um there's a solo mode option...it can be solo'd and was meant to in that mode...*gets confused look* Squad mode was obviously made for squad but like I said even veno's have a hard time (because they are essentially controlling another "character" if you will-hey the herc looks more than human enough lol)

3-x is a viable option for herc venos to solo with their well spent 200$ investment. (You forget the main complaint was usually herc venos soloing it and making money not -interval BM's and btw they had to FARM TT in the first place for their interval gear + CS for lunar claws. Venos have to merely worry about a maxed pet heal enough crack chann to keep the heals up and a herc w/ or w/o bless) I wouldnt want to spend that much money and then realize its not worth anything and I hope youre also taking into account the less-than-desirable drop count from TT.

What again makes this the hardest on anyone is Arch server. We have people running around in NPC 3* 8x molders etc. who cant even survive the GBA boss (because of course they were the idiots who hypered to 95+ before the update and was getting mats they DIDNT need to sell for the mats they DID need but I digress) our herc venos and our higher level farmers were the ones who were able to even get a half-**** TT market going but now it makes it a burden on the 10x to farm other people's gear in the faction. It's not like we 9x don't WANT to farm 3-x but now I can't get my 99 gold wheel for a LOGg time because no one (not even our Nirvana bow archers or our Nirvana chest piece BM) want to go in there and get murdered multiple times for mats they dont even need that wont probably drop after 5 runs and will cause a round of frustration like no tomorrow. I dont mind the upage in difficulty of the drop rate was also tweaked to make it a fun viable challenge PvE wise.

Please take into account other servers' states and don't suddenly upheave a nice line of responses to frankie's post (I would really like to see her replies to what our feed back is if she can/is willing to) b:cute

Also if we could get other Gm's responses it would be great ^^

BTW Dark, I think Arch server can compete for the "most empty server award" tehee.

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

I honestly don't care what you think about me or my posting. Your histerycal ranting and obsession with QQ as a term (which btw, comes from W O W you fanboy) is midly amusing but that's about it. And little substance? Dad couldn't afford for you to go to college and you now consider elocuent and articulate expression useless, is that it?

If you don't know how to use urban dictionary or something to check the terms you don't know, don't post. I bet you'd say the first operating system was Windows.

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

My intellectual capacity is well established, thank you. Your bragging about being smarter than me you should back up with something more than escathological references to monkeys but as you have proven in your recent posts, your mind seems to automatically go to S***. Now, it's been theorized that people claiming to be smarter than others often prove themselves more unintelligent and that said boasts are nothing more than a defense mechanism designed to calm the fears of a deeply insecure psyche. That's Freud in case you need a source for that, smartboy. Oh, yea, and just in case you actually think this could somehow be turned on me, and since you have obviously shown it is hard for you to understand subtext, i do want to make it clear i mean this not as assertion or boast of my own capabilities, but that i plainly mean to insult you. b:pleased

Please stop posting if that's all you can do.

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

The intelligent person, so to speak, wastes no time in flame wars. Your pathetic attempts at proving yourself intelligent does prove my point concerning Freud to be right, whatever else you may want to say, and it should be obvious i speak the truth to anyone who would actually bother to read our exchanges. Go back to whatever hill it is that you came from and where they may share your contempt for education. You may be considered smart there, you're nothing but a troll here.

So you admit you are not intelligent person? Good for you. You are also a bigger troll than Michael. Compared to you he's a good guy.

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

It wasn't QQ, i was insulting you. If you can't tell the difference you probably do have some serious social issues.

Banhammer is coming. I already see it.