Hard mode Server --> leave your opinion =)

Mayfly - Dreamweaver · June 2010

Reshanta - Sanctuary wrote: »

remove old swordsman npc forever

I've seen him a lot. What is his purpose? I keep thinking he's gonna aggro and kill me.

Give him the right wine(s), and he'll remove all but the bosses, their adds, and a few other mobs from the instance.

Zoe - Heavens Tear · June 2010

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Give him the right wine(s), and he'll remove all but the bosses, their adds, and a few other mobs from the instance.

I want to steal him for TW. Give him wine and he removes all of the opposing faction members from the TW and they can't return.b:sin

volst · June 2010

Ultimate hard mode:
-Only class available are wizards

b:bye

Telarith - Sanctuary · June 2010

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Of course you don't agree, you also don't sound like the typical BH leveler. I'm not saying grinding is necessary to learn your class, but people who don't even do their kill quests more often than not show their unfamiliarity with their skillset. All the so-called repetition is actually a series of different types of mobs that behave differently in different situations, many of them mixed in together.

You say grinding doesn't help you learn your class, but that's flat out wrong. Squad tactics is always important, however as a soldier or player in an MMO, you first need to become accustomed to what you need to do as an individual, and BHs throw much of the necessary individual training out the window and prematurely forces people to learning how to cope with being in a squad before even becoming instinctive and reactionary in situations with their own skillset without the backup of a tank, a healer or any instance.

When stuff goes wrong in a BH, you see the effects of this when you have massively fail classes, because when a squad fails it's usually the weakest link that fails and it cascades. Of course every squad will fail from time to time, but before BH and Hyper, you hardly ever saw so much QQ... even when we were lowbies spamming world chat doing low FBs for EXP... without blessings or genies, we'd go into tougher situations and have far less fail than typical pick up parties do these days.... why? Because people back then actually had to take the time to learn their soloing abilities before jumping into squad situations.

A good comparison would be group sports. If you don't know how to play the game, the best team isn't necessarily going to win. You need to be good at YOUR game before you can compliment a squad properly.

It's absolutely clear if you're in a high level faction who has played the game for some time and being in squad with those that haven't. Well, unless you're one of those fail players, I imagine... they often see situations that can easily be avoided but freeze, have no idea what to do, or just can't manage their class properly to avoid pulling a leroy.

Having run every instance except for new Frost and new Lunar to death, having all the FBs from 19 to 99 memorized from doing hundreds of runs, it's really apparent seeing the new crop of inexperienced 10x players who just don't know anything about the game except for how to run a BH or Frost squad when they should already know much of what they don't from experience, because they bypassed the majority of the game.

Yep, grinding was able to be alot more challenging than even of level FBs were. Still remember grinding on my cleric, I used to make it more challenging to build up various skills:

Like being full magic cleric, I would hunt down flying mobs that were 3-6 levels higher than me and grind there. And not just hang on outer portion and nuke from safety. On the Minions around the towers in swamp, there would be a swarm around the 3 towers. I would work my way inside, and then kill from roughly the center of the spawn. 0 vit, +1 or 2 refined armor, no health charm, no mana charm. It was necessary to watch radar at all times, be aware when a mob pops nearby if it might melee, and monitor health. Later I added a no self-healing until under 300 health, which made sac assault mobs and others much more dangerous. At that point you need to be able to decide whether to finish the spell to kill your target, or cancel and drop to safety before being nuked in one shot.

So it was alot more interesting than mindlessly killing with ease, when any lost attention could instantly result in your death. Toss on PK mode when all the people in the area were also pk set, and there was a faction rivalry with the other grinders there, and it was prolly the most fun time to be had just for how much skill was required to actually pull it off. And then watching others die who were charmed and healed to full was just another form of entertainment.

Sherufaniru - Raging Tide · June 2010

I did play back when PWI was in open beta but didn't stay around long to know how "hard" or different it was compared to now.

Ok I know a few people that say the game is easy before just like it is now but they are only a few people so they don't count in this case I guess.

Also does anyone actually have percentage of people that rather have the game the old way? Cause come on let be serious not everyone that play Perfect World use the forum and a few number vocal people on the forum don't count for everyone.

Unless there was a poll or something that had everyone from the game voted that I miss?

From what I see you want in this "Hard mode Server" you want the game to be pay to play since I don't see anyone suggesting how the server would be funded.

TigerLily - Lost City · June 2010

I really dont remember meeting that many horrible clueless players inside instances before HyperFrost and x3 BHs. You had a few metal maging clerics, barbs that was to lazy to bite and occasionally suicidal BMs/archers that was about it.

If i go do a BH100 with a random squad today, like at least 3/6 the party will be extremely bad. They never have proper genie skills, they dont know the most basic skill usage for their class, they have weird builds, **** gear, no hp, they die over and over and have no clue where to go and what to do inside the instance. So annoying <.<

Michael_Dark - Lost City · June 2010

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Like being full magic cleric, I would hunt down flying mobs that were 3-6 levels higher than me and grind there. And not just hang on outer portion and nuke from safety. On the Minions around the towers in swamp, there would be a swarm around the 3 towers. I would work my way inside, and then kill from roughly the center of the spawn. 0 vit, +1 or 2 refined armor, no health charm, no mana charm. It was necessary to watch radar at all times, be aware when a mob pops nearby if it might melee, and monitor health. Later I added a no self-healing until under 300 health, which made sac assault mobs and others much more dangerous. At that point you need to be able to decide whether to finish the spell to kill your target, or cancel and drop to safety before being nuked in one shot.

Exactly. You hone your reactions, your use of skills, timing and evading as well as thinking out your plan and being able to adapt and overcome situations that unexpectedly become too heated and to find and know your limits. You're at full health and hitting a pot because you know that you'll be needing that heal before you've even been hit or you might die, having the random PKer trying to kill you while you're engaging several mobs, or any other number of untold circumstances that you'll never have to deal with while mimicking the repetitiveness of what you're supposed to do in a typical BH. There is very little learning involved. No real trial and error, you just follow the leader and perform your role as you saw someone else do when you first started running that particular instance.

So it was alot more interesting than mindlessly killing with ease, when any lost attention could instantly result in your death. Toss on PK mode when all the people in the area were also pk set, and there was a faction rivalry with the other grinders there, and it was prolly the most fun time to be had just for how much skill was required to actually pull it off. And then watching others die who were charmed and healed to full was just another form of entertainment.

Yeah, some of the most fun in the game is when you're off doing something PvE related and PvP suddenly comes into play. I don't know how many kill quests or farming routes I've had interrupted either to kill, be killed, coming back for seconds or faction wars erupting. It makes the game far less static.... and much more entertaining. At least to me.

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

If i go do a BH100 with a random squad today, like at least 3/6 the party will be extremely bad. They never have proper genie skills, they dont know the most basic skill usage for their class, they have weird builds, **** gear, no hp, they die over and over and have no clue where to go and what to do inside the instance. So annoying <.<

Many of those same people think they've learned how to play just fine... and they say so on the forums as well. Of course they're most likely the ones that we're using as examples, otherwise they would know exactly what we're talking about. They don't because they are the ones we're talking about, so to them, everything is fine. They learned how to play follow the leader and are pro. lol

Tojop - Dreamweaver · June 2010

But I AM pro, honest b:sad

Rhenton - Archosaur · June 2010

I never got a chance to play the game like it was "back in the day". But i did get to see it, My friend that introduced me to the game started playin back in the day, I would just hang out at his house and watch him play. I didnt have a comp at the time, I remember going there to watchhim play, seeing TWs and just being captivated. watching the game then, and playing it now.....i can see the difference. Watching the gameplay back then was something different, i cant find the right word to use, but from what i saw, it seemed like factions were solid, squads were solid. People knew their roles, communicated, and had fun doing it.

Ive only been playing since December of last year. I started a toon on Sanctuary. when arch opened i started a toon there. I joined a faction, and made a few close friends. Sadly after a while there was dissension, people left, arguments etc. I still talk to my friend that introduced me to the game, he stopped playing a while ago, but i ask him for advice from time to time. he would always say " make friends, squad with them daily, work together, learn their squad role, learn YOUR toon and your job, and continue to work together and have fun".

I hear people talk about what it was like. I really want to experience that. I dont want to miss anything in the game. Ive been researching Gamma lately, and i asked a few people if they were interested in running it, the usual reply is "cant, running BH, or doing event". i want to have the chance to experience everything ingame. ive never even done a zhen squad, I havent even seen one done on this server, most people say its obsolete now...

If there was a hardmode server i would join it. I like games that are challenging, that take a long time to progress through. Thats why i stopped playing consoles, I just couldnt justify spending $50-60 on a game to beat it 4 days later.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · June 2010

Rhenton - Archosaur wrote: »

he would always say " make friends, squad with them daily, work together, learn their squad role, learn YOUR toon and your job, and continue to work together and have fun".

If there was a hardmode server i would join it. I like games that are challenging, that take a long time to progress through. Thats why i stopped playing consoles, I just couldnt justify spending $50-60 on a game to beat it 4 days later.

Sounds like your friend put you on the right path. The game isn't really all that different, just the people who are too rushed to take the time to learn their class properly, thinking 'bh is just as valid or better experience than killing the same single mob over and over' when that's really not true.

As for trying all the stuff that used to be done that it's hard to find squads for... wish I could help or give you an easy answer, but a lot of that stuff that is 'obsolete' was actually quite fun.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · June 2010

yea bacause 'getting few mobs, aoe, pot and repeat' treach u so much.. sure

those are basics

u making extreme examples. i can too:

i remeber how often -before bh- u could meet people who whole their toon life spent on questing and grinding and then was super clueless in instance like 1-1

if person like this was playing barb or cler then squad was pretty much screwed. if DD then at least he could do some pew-pew macro, but was 0 help beside that. And 3/4 of DDs were like that, acting like bots, no team play - but sure they were good in poting and running when something bad happened lol
and despite what many people think - this game actually requires good DDs to play it well.

imo BH could be greatest way to train new players.

bh isnt prob, but that u can rush tru lvls now, and u dont have time to learn well.
BH is too rewarding and allows to power level (hlvl toons helping in low lvl bh are common today). If exp would be counted normally (u get exp from boss not from quest) then it would eliminate prob too.

(side note: best if high levels wouldnt be allowed to enter low lvl instances. Imagine that restriction in TT = no more probs with insane underpricing mats since f.e. 2-2 could be done just by 75-85 ppl).

add to that oracles and hypers and u have answer why so many ppz suck so much today

Yulk - Heavens Tear · June 2010

This thread is odd, picking up from my "dumb" threads? IDK if someone else said that the game should be more challenging before me, but too lazy to search.

-No crazy stone = absolutely agreed, this is the worst quest of all, you do absolutely nothing but buy elemental shards and wait 10 mins for exp.
-No bounty hunter quests = Agreed, why exp reward in a 10-20 lower leveled dungeon? Why not go in your own LVL dungeon, now that would teach you
-No Dailies = Agreed, its obviously handed out quests still
-No hypers or tokens or packs = Agreed, too much source of exp
-No 2x exp = there are quests and training scrolls for that
-Yes more spirit = infact make it 3x or 4x spirit reward, skills costs a lot of spirit. But there should be a spirit cap each lvl
-No genies = the game was going downhill ever since genies came along
-Yes level cap in instances, I am for this

Also about regen when someone just said, No I disagree, that will ruin the purpose of using regen apoth and buffs, + waiting on MP to be recovered is much of a pain as it is without powders. Besides, the regen would be recovering 25% in battle.

About venoes can't lure with pets, bad idea. Let the genie alone not be able to pull 1 mob. But people would not want venoes that much anymore if this ever happens.

ACLucius - Archosaur · June 2010

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Disagree as much as you like, I've seen the quality of players produced before BH, after BH and after Hyper. With each successive generation, the ability for many players to use skills has diminished noticeably.

Kill quests on the normal map isn't just about 1v1. It's about learning how to approach different situations and mob types under a variety of circumstances. Pure melee, mixed magic/melee, kiters, being pulled into other mobs, which skills and tactics will save your charm or learning how many you can take on or engaging multiple mobs... so many different situations that I can't even begin to think of or name them all. You don't learn how to deal with multiple scenarios over the course of one BH, or even a dozen. That's just BS if you're trying to say that you do. You also don't even learn that much from running one particular BH for a week or two before you outgrow it and move on to the next, you just learn how to tackle that one instance. That hardly gives you the training to overcome much else.

I have learned more about my class from doing a BH than from grinding, and I have done both. You can face all of those mob types inside a BH, with a difference that they die harder and hit harder. So, when a regular mob just runs into one of it's friends, I'll say "no problem, these guys barely touch me" and I'll run in and kill them both before they get two shots on me. With the elites in dungeons, I won't be thinking how easy they are for me, I'll be thinking about how easy I would be for them. I've developed more tactics for facing multiple mobs in the BH than I ever would have outside, because it was life or death to learn that. Now it does get repetitive in a dungeon, but that for the most part is how it is in dungeons.

Under your beliefs though, hypers are fine because they are out there in the world grinding. They simply are getting more per kill than normal. They are learning the constant variable situations of regular mobs that you insist are there.

Now, perhaps this is just a class based argument and we can't agree because an Assassin's role in a party for instances is quite different than a Blademaster's. You focus on massive DD on mobs in dungeons, we focus on crowd control to protect the squishies. Maybe the Blademaster skills are honed best out grinding, but the Assassin skills definitely are not.

In most cases, it's also pretty obvious when you play with someone who has done all their questing than with someone who has hypered and BH'd all their levels. I've had 8x and 9x archers who said they didn't have or never leveled sharptooth. Partied with lvl 100 barbs who didn't have lvl 10 HP buffs. Seeing lvl 100 BMs using Tiger Maw and Draw Blood. Watch them aggro mobs and die in places they shouldn't. Not knowing which bosses AoE and how to run a FB properly. In most circumstances they're pretty pro when you throw them into a BH party, but when you try to do something else you just watch them unsure of themselves and confused. A lot of stuff that if they had taken their time, learned their skills, developed instinct and timing, they wouldn't need to be instructed to do things that they should already know at their level. Yes, I'm generalizing quite a bit, I have to.

I remember back when this game just started, you could throw a lot of people in a party for a TT and no one would know what to do. They didn't know because they were new to the game and never played on the other versions as some of us had. I'm sure that a lot of the people you have seen who didn't know what to do had done a lot if not all BH to level, but they probably never did anything else. So, just the same, if you have someone who just goes out and grinds up to level 100 without ever stepping foot in a dungeon, what will happen when they do? Will they instantly know what bosses AoE and when to cancel and what skills are best to use on some bosses?

I've seen a lot of fail people and many who like your examples didn't level the necessary skills. I've run into a Barb who never leveled True Form or any tiger skills because they said they were too weak. I've seen a lot of these though in BH29, the 4x level. Before they ever touched a BH above that, they were already a fail tank. Can you blame this on BH? It might have been because of hypers, as they would not have enough spirit to support the necessary skills. Or they just picked the skills they liked the sound of and had never touched an MMORPG before.

Just like anything in life, you can tell when someone knows what they're doing and when they don't. I'm not saying all BH and Hyper Oracle nubs are horrible players. It's just obvious though that they didn't take the time to actually learn the game as they went along and opted to the short road to the end.

It's also the reason why there are so many threads of why people suck and how their BH parties were so fail. Earlier on in this game, you didn't see threads like that because most everyone actually learned to play and progressed as they leveled. Now they don't need to progress as they level and this shows. A lot.

You see so many BH fail threads because people do more of them. If it was so bad, wouldn't you see just as many "fail TT" or "fail FC" or any other fail dungeons? I know these threads well, they are quite funny to read. In fact, a while back I had even posted one myself of a couple who thought they could take on Calcid with a 6x Archer, a 4x Barb, and a 59 Assassin (me) and without a Cleric. I just took screenshots like crazy during it because it was funny. I tried to warn them, but they just didn't listen.

Now, if a Barb is out doing grinding, how does he learn how to maintain aggro? If a Psychic is out grinding, how does she learn to control her aggro? How does an Assassin know not to spam double spark on bosses when being a DD if he is out grinding? I'm quite sure they wouldn't learn these things. Now, how would any class learn what bosses AoE, when they need to be ready to pot, where to go in a dungeon, how to rush, or any of those while out grinding?

It seems to me that if anything, grinding would be the problem, but I'm sure it's not. Hypers and Oracles, those definitely are major problems. The only problem I could think BH's bring is leveling players so fast that they get mixed in with the rest of us quickly, but regardless of how they level, they still need to be taught what to do in instances. So, the solution to the problem is not get rid of BH, it is to just cut down the exp gain from it.

SilverCleric - Lost City · June 2010

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yep, grinding was able to be alot more challenging than even of level FBs were. Still remember grinding on my cleric, I used to make it more challenging to build up various skills:

Like being full magic cleric, I would hunt down flying mobs that were 3-6 levels higher than me and grind there. And not just hang on outer portion and nuke from safety. On the Minions around the towers in swamp, there would be a swarm around the 3 towers. I would work my way inside, and then kill from roughly the center of the spawn. 0 vit, +1 or 2 refined armor, no health charm, no mana charm. It was necessary to watch radar at all times, be aware when a mob pops nearby if it might melee, and monitor health. Later I added a no self-healing until under 300 health, which made sac assault mobs and others much more dangerous. At that point you need to be able to decide whether to finish the spell to kill your target, or cancel and drop to safety before being nuked in one shot.

So it was alot more interesting than mindlessly killing with ease, when any lost attention could instantly result in your death. Toss on PK mode when all the people in the area were also pk set, and there was a faction rivalry with the other grinders there, and it was prolly the most fun time to be had just for how much skill was required to actually pull it off. And then watching others die who were charmed and healed to full was just another form of entertainment.

Hmm... If you where talking about that quest that requires you to get this item that is guarded by those towers and those 2 mini bosses I tried soloing that my self as well until a wiz showed up who needed it help me get it.

It starts when I got there I saw the mobs and first i tried killing the mini bosses 1 by 1 as fast as possible so I will be able to kill the towers fast enough so they wont respond and kill me. It almost worked until the mobs came back and when I tried to kill them that's when the wiz showed up, we squad and we decided for one of us to take agro from the responding mobs while one digs up the quest item. It worked but it took awhile and the wiz decided give up on the quest while I was able to get it.

So, the dose prove that grinding/questing can teach you how to play your class and work with squads.

I was also able to help a 6x sin dig up that center pillar in fb59. b:victory

Yulk - Heavens Tear · June 2010

volst wrote: »

Why not just play in MY-EN or MS(is it still alive)? And those are true international servers too. They have no bh/nirvana/tb. They do have easy fc/hard mode lunar/genies. Afaik, MY-EN hasn't had a new box in 5-6 months.

Unless you guys secretly want pwe to re-implement all these stuff eventually when it gets "too hard".

Really? b:shocked Cool.... If only I could transfer my main chars there b:surrender

@ Michael, what's wrong with draw blood and tiger maw? its not like its the only skill I use . But I do stun with tiger maw with my sawtooth blades b:sin

Edit: I forgot about no attack LVL, no defense LVL, no crit strike damage and no soul force

ACLucius - Archosaur · June 2010

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Really? b:shocked Cool.... If only I could transfer my main chars there b:surrender

@ Michael, what's wrong with draw blood and tiger maw? its not like its the only skill I use . But I do stun with tiger maw with my sawtooth blades b:sin

That is probably because your weapon has a stun feature on it. What is wrong with it though is that Tiger Maw is an extremely weak skill for Blademasters. You aren't seeing this because you are still around the level where it is maxed at. However, once you get to 6x, compare the damage done by Tiger Maw maxed to the level 5 damage of Atmos Strike.

Yulk - Heavens Tear · June 2010

ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »

That is probably because your weapon has a stun feature on it. What is wrong with it though is that Tiger Maw is an extremely weak skill for Blademasters. You aren't seeing this because you are still around the level where it is maxed at. However, once you get to 6x, compare the damage done by Tiger Maw maxed to the level 5 damage of Atmos Strike.

Well I kill fast with it, I have yet to see what's the problem. I also use ocean's edge too. I use spark, then use tiger maw, ocean's edge, drakes ray, and repeat. I usually 4-5 shot mobs that way. and yeah, my weapon does have stun effect. I like being LVL45 atm

... I can AOE stun lock too... just epic

SilverCleric - Lost City · June 2010

Like what everyone else said the hard mode server should have....

No BH's/dailies/PQ

No Oracles /Hypers

No Genies

No 2x exp/2x drops (But have a 2x spirit won't hurt) b:chuckle

No HP/Mp charms

No Nixes/Hercs (So people won't be saying that venos are required to have a herc :P )

No Blessings

Also FB's should have more obstacles and traps and puzzles like TT's, Frost, and the cube, so people can actually think on how to do a FB instead of just playing "follow the leader" though out the BH.

Mobs/Bosses should also be more harder to kill and have more different types of attacks so mobs be more of a challange.

There should be more instances for more different types of quests to make the game more challenging.

And for the Devs the Boutique is there but very limited (Only selling things like mounts and air mounts.

ACLucius - Archosaur · June 2010

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well I kill fast with it, I have yet to see what's the problem. I also use ocean's edge too. I use spark, then use tiger maw, ocean's edge, drakes ray, and repeat. I usually 4-5 shot mobs that way. and yeah, my weapon does have stun effect. I like being LVL45 atm ... I can AOE stun lock too... just epic

Now try using that combo at 6x/7x and see if you can still 4-5 shot. Tiger's Maw is maxed for you at the moment, so it won't get stronger. Mobs will continue to get stronger. It only gets stronger once you get Sage/Demon, and even then I doubt it is worth getting because skills at that point cost 1 million spirit. That is why most people skip Tiger's Maw entirely, the skill just isn't strong enough later on.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · June 2010

ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »

I have learned more about my class from doing a BH than from grinding, and I have done both.

*snip*

I remember back when this game just started,

The trouble with you disagreeing with me is a bit baseless. If you've been around since the beginning of the game and this is indeed an alt, you've already intimately familiarized yourself with the common mechanics of this game. Learning a second or third class is considerably easier when you already know most other aspects of the game.

Under your beliefs though, hypers are fine because they are out there in the world grinding.

Yes. By hyper I'm mostly talking about hyper frost.

Now, perhaps this is just a class based argument and we can't agree because an Assassin's role in a party for instances is quite different than a Blademaster's. You focus on massive DD on mobs in dungeons, we focus on crowd control to protect the squishies. Maybe the Blademaster skills are honed best out grinding, but the Assassin skills definitely are not.

Ok, perhaps I'm mistaken about your experience. If there is any one 'crowd control class', it would be the blademaster. BM originally was not tank or DD but a support class... the go-to guy to amp when needed and to manage the safety of a squad. How an sin fits in now would be more likened to being a DD class in PvE much like an archer.

They didn't know because they were new to the game and never played on the other versions as some of us had. I'm sure that a lot of the people you have seen who didn't know what to do had done a lot if not all BH to level, but they probably never did anything else. So, just the same, if you have someone who just goes out and grinds up to level 100 without ever stepping foot in a dungeon, what will happen when they do? Will they instantly know what bosses AoE and when to cancel and what skills are best to use on some bosses?

Again, I'll repeat myself. Many people who skipped the kill quests and only level off dalies often don't know how to properly use their skillset.

Just because you can ice skate doesn't mean you can join an NHL team and expect to win the Stanley Cup. Your arguments are pretty weak. So you've been on PWI from the beginning and you came from a different version previously. Apparently you can't tell the difference between a new player who has taken their time to learn their individual role instead of speed level and BH their way to 100 and can't see the difference in their playing. Maybe you should pay more attention?

I've seen a lot of fail people and many who like your examples didn't level the necessary skills. I've run into a Barb who never leveled True Form or any tiger skills because they said they were too weak. I've seen a lot of these though in BH29, the 4x level. Before they ever touched a BH above that, they were already a fail tank. Can you blame this on BH? It might have been because of hypers, as they would not have enough spirit to support the necessary skills. Or they just picked the skills they liked the sound of and had never touched an MMORPG before.

Or you could blame it on the fact that they never bothered learning which skills are used for what purposes, when some skills are better suited than others instead of seeing these speed levelers spam every skill they have because it's not on cooldown when they have no real clue why they're doing exactly what they're doing. THAT is what you learn.

As I've said before, if you don't learn your role as an individual, you won't be able to compliment a squad.

Now, if a Barb is out doing grinding, how does he learn how to maintain aggro? If a Psychic is out grinding, how does she learn to control her aggro? How does an Assassin know not to spam double spark on bosses when being a DD if he is out grinding? I'm quite sure they wouldn't learn these things. Now, how would any class learn what bosses AoE, when they need to be ready to pot, where to go in a dungeon, how to rush, or any of those while out grinding?

OK, now you're just being ignorant or just plain stupid. Of course there are a lot of circumstances that you can't learn while soloing your kill quests. Duh. Apparently you completely miss the point of my earlier posts.

How can you function competently in a team if you're not competent alone? You think that being in a squad magically allows you to learn your limits, appropriate use of skills and helping to form your combos, timing and tactics? lol

It seems to me that if anything, grinding would be the problem, but I'm sure it's not. Hypers and Oracles, those definitely are major problems. The only problem I could think BH's bring is leveling players so fast that they get mixed in with the rest of us quickly, but regardless of how they level, they still need to be taught what to do in instances. So, the solution to the problem is not get rid of BH, it is to just cut down the exp gain from it.

BHs level most players so fast they don't get a chance to learn how to play their class to the best of their abilities. Having other members to rely on as well as mask all the stupid things one might do... like 10x BMs using Tiger Maw and Draw Blood in PvE and PvP, archers leveling Stormrage, not debuffing before spamming metal attacks, not leveling sharptooth... mages using bids or gush on water mobs, clerics who don't use Iron because they like wellspring better, barbs who don't roar or bite, etc... I never really saw the masses of players using so many failed techniques because they never had the time to familiarize themselves as their characters grew... not doing their cultis, wearing armor 20-30 levels lower than them, geez... I could go on. I guess all the people you party with or interact with are perfect or you're pretty blind as to seeing how so many more players are playing more badly than they ever have in the past.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · June 2010

i remember something different:

9/10 venos and archers didnt have amp, purge, sharp because they didnt find those skills useful.

yes, before bh times

ofc that questing is important, u learn ur toon there.

but for learning team play bh would be ideal.

and prob is that game is just broken.

3bhs, oracles, hyper, power level (it is surprising that ur not allowed/able to power level by grinding but u can do that by bh).

Michael_Dark - Lost City · June 2010

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i remember something different:

9/10 venos and archers didnt have amp, purge, sharp because they didnt find those skills useful.

yes, before bh times

ofc that questing is important, u learn ur toon there.

but for learning team play bh would be ideal.

The game was actually quite brilliant how it taught you all of this... as you leveled up, your solo play would be slowly supplemented with being able to participate in more FBs... all of the earlier levels 1-60ish were mostly spent learning your skills for individual tasks, introducing bosses along the way where you would need some help or squad participation. As you leveled higher, you were available for higher level FBs. When you starting getting past 6x is when you started learning squad tactics as it pertained to HH and then moving on to even more difficult grounds, Frost and Lunar. By the time you reached 8x-9x, you've moved from playing mostly solo to being in squad much of the time. There are so many facets to the original game design and how it further lead you to advance is quite brilliant. Just the way you would start earning money is from selling DQ from your earlier quests, but as you start leveling high enough to make money from the lower HH's DQ drop rates start to taper off and by 8x your income from grinding would be nearly nothing, but your revenue from selling unnecessary mats from 1-2, 2-1, 2-2, 1-3, 3-1, etc... would make up for that. Most aspects of these things were quite balanced in the beginning, but BH and 2x has pretty much destroyed the balances that were originally created.

Reshanta - Sanctuary · June 2010

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This thread is odd, picking up from my "dumb" threads? IDK if someone else said that the game should be more challenging before me, but too lazy to search.

-No crazy stone = absolutely agreed, this is the worst quest of all, you do absolutely nothing but buy elemental shards and wait 10 mins for exp.
-No bounty hunter quests = Agreed, why exp reward in a 10-20 lower leveled dungeon? Why not go in your own LVL dungeon, now that would teach you
-No Dailies = Agreed, its obviously handed out quests still
-No hypers or tokens or packs = Agreed, too much source of exp
-No 2x exp = there are quests and training scrolls for that
-Yes more spirit = infact make it 3x or 4x spirit reward, skills costs a lot of spirit. But there should be a spirit cap each lvl
-No genies = the game was going downhill ever since genies came along
-Yes level cap in instances, I am for this

Also about regen when someone just said, No I disagree, that will ruin the purpose of using regen apoth and buffs, + waiting on MP to be recovered is much of a pain as it is without powders. Besides, the regen would be recovering 25% in battle.

About venoes can't lure with pets, bad idea. Let the genie alone not be able to pull 1 mob. But people would not want venoes that much anymore if this ever happens.

Commenting only on the points that I'm familiar with.

Crazy stone - I see this doing no real harm, tbh. It's once a day and it's not like you can gain a bunch of levels from it by itself. I'm just 52 and the xp it gives is barely much than what it was when I was lower. You don't get money - so it's not making contributions to the economy negatively. It's also basically free spirit which IMO matters more. I say keep this.

BH - Lever restrictions are better than completely removing it. MMOs don't have to always cater ONLY to high level players. Though PWI is the first I've seen with a ton of low level content.

Hypers, tokens, etc - Keep hypers for those who like to grind traditionally(that's me) but it can't be used in instances I suppose. Hating on tokens and packs is waste of blood pressure. Lots of people are getting lucky but lots are not getting lucky. with nearly 1,000 tokens, I've given up.

2x xp - this doesn't hurt either however this coming from someone not above 60+ and it doesn't stack with Hypers(or any other xp increasing item either; in fact it is nullified completely.)

Genies - perhaps I do not understand these, but I find mine to be useless. She just follows me around and gives the sense that I'm not alone O_o.

More spirit - Well, I've seem to start this trend

.

Well I kill fast with it, I have yet to see what's the problem. I also use ocean's edge too. I use spark, then use tiger maw, ocean's edge, drakes ray, and repeat. I usually 4-5 shot mobs that way. and yeah, my weapon does have stun effect. I like being LVL45 atm ... I can AOE stun lock too... just epic

Mobs are a joke at your level as well as mine. Typically an online game changes dramatically after a certain level range is passed. You are setting yourself up for disappointment most likely if you continue to keep that mindset.

ACLucius - Archosaur · June 2010

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

The trouble with you disagreeing with me is a bit baseless. If you've been around since the beginning of the game and this is indeed an alt, you've already intimately familiarized yourself with the common mechanics of this game. Learning a second or third class is considerably easier when you already know most other aspects of the game.

I started as a Blademaster and went to Assassin recently (about 5 months ago). They are both vastly different classes and it does take time getting used to. However, it helps to actually read guides rather than just randomly say "oh, that skill looks nice." However, as I have said before, when I first started, I didn't have any idea what I was doing in TT until I was taught. No one does know exactly what to do their first time through. So all of your arguments against these people who level too quickly and don't know what to do in an instance is pretty baseless itself considering it is probably their first time playing the game. I doubt leveling slower and out grinding would increase their knowledge about these.

Ok, perhaps I'm mistaken about your experience. If there is any one 'crowd control class', it would be the blademaster. BM originally was not tank or DD but a support class... the go-to guy to amp when needed and to manage the safety of a squad. How an sin fits in now would be more likened to being a DD class in PvE much like an archer.

Crowd control in TW? Definitely. In PvE? Not so much. Blademasters can quickly kill multiple mobs, let alone single mobs. Now how fast can you move between several mobs and keep them all from moving when they are spread out? You have two speed skills, two skills that make you jump forward or back from a target. You have several stun skills, but only one which is a guarantee to stun every time. Assassins have sleep (95% chance at max), freeze, two stuns, one being a teleport as well, and a silence. Silence lasts 4 seconds max, sleep 5 seconds, freeze 9 seconds (11 Sage), stuns are 5 and 3 maxed (6 each on Demon), as well as two speed skills and 1 teleport that takes us directly to the target we want (not including the stunning teleport).

In 1v1, we are a DD, or against a boss. When the entire squad is trying to kill a group of mobs with the squishies back by the Cleric, you better believe not only can we get there faster without dragging a bunch of mobs behind us as well, we can control multiple mobs long enough for squishy classes to get back, and we can do it much quicker than a Blademaster. So yes, we have taken a role of crowd control in the squad, especially in AoE as we can only use a max of 9 AoEs in a minute.

Again, I'll repeat myself. Many people who skipped the kill quests and only level off dalies often don't know how to properly use their skillset.

Just because you can ice skate doesn't mean you can join an NHL team and expect to win the Stanley Cup. Your arguments are pretty weak. So you've been on PWI from the beginning and you came from a different version previously. Apparently you can't tell the difference between a new player who has taken their time to learn their individual role instead of speed level and BH their way to 100 and can't see the difference in their playing. Maybe you should pay more attention?

I can easily see the difference between new and experienced players, especially since I was the former and am the latter. I know how difficult it was to experience the upper level content for the first time because back when I started, there weren't any guides on forums for us to read how to do them. I was one of those people who had to experiment with groups to see what worked and what didn't. People now don't know what to do any more than we did back then. However, they still need to be told how to do it. Just because the information is out there doesn't mean everyone gets it before they need it.

Or you could blame it on the fact that they never bothered learning which skills are used for what purposes, when some skills are better suited than others instead of seeing these speed levelers spam every skill they have because it's not on cooldown when they have no real clue why they're doing exactly what they're doing. THAT is what you learn.

As I've said before, if you don't learn your role as an individual, you won't be able to compliment a squad.

As I've said, the role a person has on an individual need and a squad need are different. In grinding, I just kill because it is easy to kill them. In squad, I have to be a DD and crowd control to protect the squishy classes. In one, I worry only about myself. In the other, I have to worry about the classes who can't take more than three hits.

OK, now you're just being ignorant or just plain stupid. Of course there are a lot of circumstances that you can't learn while soloing your kill quests. Duh. Apparently you completely miss the point of my earlier posts.

How can you function competently in a team if you're not competent alone? You think that being in a squad magically allows you to learn your limits, appropriate use of skills and helping to form your combos, timing and tactics? lol

Perhaps you should then rephrase what you meant before on earlier posts? If you are not saying that a person who is out grinding should be able to learn their role in parties, when should they learn them? In the dungeons? If so, then BH teaches them earlier so it's obviously a good thing if that is what you are saying? However, as far as I'm aware, you only ever apply dungeon tactics in dungeons. I don't remember having to fight my way from Dreaming Cloud Ridge to Swamp of Wraiths in a group. Sorry, it may be a stupid analogy, but that is pretty much what you are replying back with such vague details of what you mean.

BHs level most players so fast they don't get a chance to learn how to play their class to the best of their abilities. Having other members to rely on as well as mask all the stupid things one might do... like 10x BMs using Tiger Maw and Draw Blood in PvE and PvP, archers leveling Stormrage, not debuffing before spamming metal attacks, not leveling sharptooth... mages using bids or gush on water mobs, clerics who don't use Iron because they like wellspring better, barbs who don't roar or bite, etc... I never really saw the masses of players using so many failed techniques because they never had the time to familiarize themselves as their characters grew... not doing their cultis, wearing armor 20-30 levels lower than them, geez... I could go on. I guess all the people you party with or interact with are perfect or you're pretty blind as to seeing how so many more players are playing more badly than they ever have in the past.

It sounds more to me that people are doing those things because no one is correcting them. More and more people become so quick to kick a person because they aren't doing something right rather than teach them what to do. A little experienced tip; one of the differences between a new player and an experienced one is a new player cannot or does not teach others what to do, while an experienced player can and does teach whenever possible.

If they are level 100 and using Tiger Maw, the problem isn't that they leveled too fast. It's that no one told them any better, and they are doing what they learned to do in PvE. Hopefully though, you are one of the people teaching them how to play their class better, rather than just kicking them from the squad.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · June 2010

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

The game was actually quite brilliant how it taught you all of this... as you leveled up, your solo play would be slowly supplemented with being able to participate in more FBs... all of the earlier levels 1-60ish were mostly spent learning your skills for individual tasks, introducing bosses along the way where you would need some help or squad participation. As you leveled higher, you were available for higher level FBs. When you starting getting past 6x is when you started learning squad tactics as it pertained to HH and then moving on to even more difficult grounds, Frost and Lunar. By the time you reached 8x-9x, you've moved from playing mostly solo to being in squad much of the time. There are so many facets to the original game design and how it further lead you to advance is quite brilliant. Just the way you would start earning money is from selling DQ from your earlier quests, but as you start leveling high enough to make money from the lower HH's DQ drop rates start to taper off and by 8x your income from grinding would be nearly nothing, but your revenue from selling unnecessary mats from 1-2, 2-1, 2-2, 1-3, 3-1, etc... would make up for that. Most aspects of these things were quite balanced in the beginning, but BH and 2x has pretty much destroyed the balances that were originally created.

well, i agree with u - game was pretty much well designed. u can see that devs had 'plan' when making it.
but there was always one thing lacking from my point of view - team play on lower levels, before 60lvl.

not everyone was fb freaks, and most ppl avoided instances since actually fbs are huge coin sink.
i wasnt able to save any money because i used all on skills and mp just to be able to run them b:chuckle

bh was great idea - exp + money reward (drops), so most people would decide to run it and hopefuly learn something.

but like most of new content turned out to be flawed.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · June 2010

ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »

I started as a Blademaster and went to Assassin recently (about 5 months ago). They are both vastly different classes and it does take time getting used to. However, it helps to actually read guides rather than just randomly say "oh, that skill looks nice." However, as I have said before, when I first started, I didn't have any idea what I was doing in TT until I was taught. No one does know exactly what to do their first time through. So all of your arguments against these people who level too quickly and don't know what to do in an instance is pretty baseless itself considering it is probably their first time playing the game. I doubt leveling slower and out grinding would increase their knowledge about these.

My argument isn't baseless at all. I've leveled 3 characters past 7x. I know the quests the locations, many by heart. Leveling another is easy. Understanding the mechanics of the game is second nature. All I have to do is learn to play that particular class. There is a much leaner learning curve once you have all the basics memorized.... the interface, the npcs, how mobs that i've already killed over and over react to ranged or melee attacks, what to do when a mob kites, how many mobs I can handle, knowing how to increase my survivability or my damage output, apoc pots, where to farm for money, how to do just about anything in-game.

For a first-time player, the learning curve is pretty steep.

Apparently, you fit into the exact type of player that I'm talking about since you cannot seem to differentiate between the two types of player.

Crowd control in TW? Definitely. In PvE? Not so much.

My job in tw is to stun large groups of DD and dragon them when possible. I don't go killing unless it's absolutely necessary and let the DD teams, the mages and archers do that. Also in Rebirth, crowd control is very important. In instances as well.

Tell me how many AoEs a sin has as it's disposal? It's not a 1vMany class, you don't do crowd control at all. You're a single target DD. You don't tank. You don't support.

Blademasters can quickly kill multiple mobs, let alone single mobs. Now how fast can you move between several mobs and keep them all from moving when they are spread out? You have two speed skills, two skills that make you jump forward or back from a target. You have several stun skills, but only one which is a guarantee to stun every time.

Quite efficiently. As a BM I have 2 natural speed buffs. I have an AoE stun. I can stun a group of mobs, rush off and take aggro the ones targeting the squishies. If something goes wrong, it's my job to take care of it.

Assassins have sleep (95% chance at max), freeze, two stuns, one being a teleport as well, and a silence. Silence lasts 4 seconds max, sleep 5 seconds, freeze 9 seconds (11 Sage), stuns are 5 and 3 maxed (6 each on Demon), as well as two speed skills and 1 teleport that takes us directly to the target we want (not including the stunning teleport).

How many of these skills target more than 1 target? Crowd control? lol. Yeah, you can control a crowd of one really efficiently.

we can control multiple mobs long enough for squishy classes to get back, and we can do it much quicker than a Blademaster. So yes, we have taken a role of crowd control in the squad, especially in AoE as we can only use a max of 9 AoEs in a minute.

I see sins trying to rescue squishies, they often die. Unless you're a massive cash shopper or merch-king, you're not going to have the HP or pdef to do what you claim without dying a lot. Which, I actually see sins do quite a bit. I would like to see you even try to take on the crowd control role in delta. It's just not going to happen.

I can easily see the difference between new and experienced players, especially since I was the former and am the latter. I know how difficult it was to experience the upper level content for the first time because back when I started, there weren't any guides on forums for us to read how to do them. I was one of those people who had to experiment with groups to see what worked and what didn't. People now don't know what to do any more than we did back then. However, they still need to be told how to do it. Just because the information is out there doesn't mean everyone gets it before they need it.

Yet, you're pretending BH is all that important, when it's nothing more than follow the leader and most power levelers just sitting there button mashing because they're not all that competent with their class.

As I've said, the role a person has on an individual need and a squad need are different. In grinding, I just kill because it is easy to kill them. In squad, I have to be a DD and crowd control to protect the squishy classes. In one, I worry only about myself. In the other, I have to worry about the classes who can't take more than three hits.

Umm... sins are part of that squishy class. I also didn't say there weren't different roles in squads and individually.

Perhaps you should then rephrase what you meant before on earlier posts? If you are not saying that a person who is out grinding should be able to learn their role in parties, when should they learn them? In the dungeons? If so, then BH teaches them earlier so it's obviously a good thing if that is what you are saying? However, as far as I'm aware, you only ever apply dungeon tactics in dungeons. I don't remember having to fight my way from Dreaming Cloud Ridge to Swamp of Wraiths in a group. Sorry, it may be a stupid analogy, but that is pretty much what you are replying back with such vague details of what you mean.

All I'm really reading from you is that you've been playing a long time but really aren't all that experienced since you can't really seem to grasp a pretty simple construct no matter how many ways it can be explained to you. If you've actually spent any significant time pre and post BH and can't discern the level of discipline that players gain, you're really not all that observant or as I mentioned, pretty much fit into the class I see often.

It sounds more to me that people are doing those things because no one is correcting them. More and more people become so quick to kick a person because they aren't doing something right rather than teach them what to do. A little experienced tip; one of the differences between a new player and an experienced one is a new player cannot or does not teach others what to do, while an experienced player can and does teach whenever possible.

If they are level 100 and using Tiger Maw, the problem isn't that they leveled too fast. It's that no one told them any better, and they are doing what they learned to do in PvE. Hopefully though, you are one of the people teaching them how to play their class better, rather than just kicking them from the squad.

I guess there isn't really anything to be had for actually learning yourself and expecting that people should have to be told what is plainly obvious. That's quite a contradiction you're making. So you expect people to be told what to do, and that's basically what BH does. You're never in a party where nobody knows how to run a BH and there is no strong merit of having to learn it for yourself... but you used to do things in the beginning where nobody knew how to do these things... Um... yeahright?

I'm thoroughly confused as to where you stand and how experienced you actually are.

Again, if you aren't competent at your individual role, you're not going to compliment a squad.

I'm speaking from my in-game experience having earned 14k+ rep from running FBs and I've run nearly every instance literally hundreds of times. Say what you will, but I have certainly seen an overall decline in skill as the leveling becomes quicker with new first-time players. I'm seeing a lot of talk, but you're still 7x and certainly don't see the results of hyper-frosting that I do. FWIW, I've earned enough exp to get to your level 20 times over and I'm not making this **** up. I've seen the skill of the player base decrease considerably over time. Leveling too quickly is the direct cause, whether you wish to believe it or not.

ACLucius - Archosaur · June 2010

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

My argument isn't baseless at all. I've leveled 3 characters past 7x. I know the quests the locations, many by heart. Leveling another is easy. Understanding the mechanics of the game is second nature. All I have to do is learn to play that particular class. There is a much leaner learning curve once you have all the basics memorized.... the interface, the npcs, how mobs that i've already killed over and over react to ranged or melee attacks, what to do when a mob kites, how many mobs I can handle, knowing how to increase my survivability or my damage output, apoc pots, where to farm for money, how to do just about anything in-game.

For a first-time player, the learning curve is pretty steep.

Apparently, you fit into the exact type of player that I'm talking about since you cannot seem to differentiate between the two types of player.

Just as well you cannot. You have admitted yourself you are one of our top players and long time running ones as well. So, you are now saying that everyone who plays through once on a character is supposed to know what to do in an instance? You are arguing that BH does not teach them this, I am arguing it does. It is easy to see the difference between a new player and experienced one. I've pointed out ways that are easy to tell especially in BH. I don't think I need touch on this any more, you have your opinions of me obviously, and you have finalized mine of you.

My job in tw is to stun large groups of DD and dragon them when possible. I don't go killing unless it's absolutely necessary and let the DD teams, the mages and archers do that.

Pretty much like I said.

In instances as well. Tell me how many AoEs a sin has as it's disposal? It's not a 1vMany class, you don't do crowd control at all. You're a single target DD. You don't tank. You don't support.

So because you have two AoE's that stun targets, both of which when at level 10 have 15 second cooldowns and one of them isn't even a guarantee of stunning, you suddenly are better in all instances than the Assassin who moves between multiple targets faster than you and can always immobilize a mob in some way with all control skills except one? What if the Cleric, Wizard, and Archer all need help? Can you get to all of them to stun each and every mob? I can teleport to the first, immobilize him, teleport to the second, sleep him, and run over to the third to stun him. You on the other hand have to run all the way back, stun one, run to the next, stun him, run to the next, stun him. While your stuns wore off, immobilize is still in affect, I can silence another to make him actually run away, and the other I can stun again. By the time, if they haven't either run away or the Barb taken aggro, I will have.

Quite efficiently. As a BM I have 2 natural speed buffs. I have an AoE stun. I can stun a group of mobs, rush off and take aggro the ones targeting the squishies. If something goes wrong, it's my job to take care of it.

Assuming just one person happens to take aggro from a bunch of mobs, sure. If they all get them individually or if you happen to be the tank of your own set of mobs, you pretty much just can't do it without putting the group in more danger.

How many of these skills target more than 1 target? Crowd control? lol. Yeah, you can control a crowd of one really efficiently.

As I've said, we can control multiple mobs, and we can do it while they are spread out. You need them to be in a group in order to effectively control them, not to mention you need to always have a spark for one of your stuns, and the other needs 35 chi. Once you run out, how quickly do you get that chi back? One skill alone puts me back up 185 chi, and I still have two other skills to give me 200 more, one being the freeze.

I see sins trying to rescue squishies, they often die. Unless you're a massive cash shopper or merch-king, you're not going to have the HP or pdef to do what you claim without dying a lot. Which, I actually see sins do quite a bit. I would like to see you even try to take on the crowd control role in delta. It's just not going to happen.

Well, I've never tried controlling a delta crowd with Assassin, so I cannot argue with this, but seeing as I can run very fast and use Alpha Male to get their attention, along with two great speed skills and a genie that recovers energy very quickly for Holy Path, I think I could probably do very well. I'll test it out once my Assassin reaches that point and let you know how it goes, and we can see how it would work in that instance.

However, you obviously don't squad with very good Assassins. I easily take care of the squads I've been in without a charm, and my gear is all 3*s. I have +2 refines on all of them, so HP isn't as much as I'd like, and have only 5 flawless citrines. I'm not an HP king, but I can still control a crowd, and if need be I can lure an entire crowd away from the squishies and save them easily without getting myself killed. Alpha Male-Maze Steps-run-Windpush-run-Holy Path-run-Shadow Escape. That will give them about 30-40 seconds to get things back under control before mobs start heading back.

Yet, you're pretending BH is all that important, when it's nothing more than follow the leader and most power levelers just sitting there button mashing because they're not all that competent with their class.

I don't disagree, but the purpose of being able to do a BH (aside from the exp involved) is to teach you how to run an instance.

Umm... sins are part of that squishy class. I also didn't say there weren't different roles in squads and individually.

Yet you had said we were a just a DD in squads. When it comes to protecting squishy classes, we are able to do that in many situations you couldn't, as well as some you could with the proper experience.

All I'm really reading from you is that you've been playing a long time but really aren't all that experienced since you can't really seem to grasp a pretty simple construct no matter how many ways it can be explained to you. If you've actually spent any significant time pre and post BH and can't discern the level of discipline that players gain, you're really not all that observant or as I mentioned, pretty much fit into the class I see often.

Or you just don't seem to be understanding what I am saying. BH teaches people what their role in a squad is. I've seen plenty of people pre-BH who would take until their 7x and 8x to really grasp it. I've as well seen plenty of people post-BH who know what they are supposed to do in 5x. Unless LC is still full of the same newbish people it was when I played on it back in 08/09, you should not be having people having problems as much as you seem to be implying.

I guess there isn't really anything to be had for actually learning yourself and expecting that people should have to be told what is plainly obvious. That's quite a contradiction you're making. So you expect people to be told what to do, and that's basically what BH does. You're never in a party where nobody knows how to run a BH and there is no strong merit of having to learn it for yourself... but you used to do things in the beginning where nobody knew how to do these things... Um... yeahright?

I suppose then you don't remember what people were like when they first started playing? People didn't know how to do a lot of things back then that we know now. Remember when RB wasn't popular and considered a waste of time? A lot of people didn't know what to do before it started becoming popular, and now everyone does. They all know because people taught them what to do in those instances. BH, it's a very simple concept and teaches simple concepts. Advanced stuff is for RB and FC, and they will have to be taught what to do in those as well. I guess it was my fault for not being more clear on this so here it is. Simple dungeon=basic concepts. Advanced dungeons=advanced concepts.

I'm thoroughly confused as to where you stand and how experienced you actually are.

Again, if you aren't competent at your individual role, you're not going to compliment a squad.

I'm speaking from my in-game experience having earned 14k+ rep from running FBs and I've run nearly every instance literally hundreds of times. Say what you will, but I have certainly seen an overall decline in skill as the leveling becomes quicker with new first-time players. I'm seeing a lot of talk, but you're still 7x (On this character, on this server)and certainly don't see the results of hyper-frosting that I do. FWIW, I've earned enough exp to get to your level 20 times over and I'm not making this **** up. I've seen the skill of the player base decrease considerably over time. Leveling too quickly is the direct cause, whether you wish to believe it or not.

Then unless I'm mistaken, you stand in the same place I do. That BH's aren't bad, the massive amounts of exp given from them are. I've already made it very clear, perhaps not in this thread but others, that I think BH gives too much exp and myself am still working on a suggestion for a revamp of the entire BH system. I do not disagree leveling too quickly is bad, but I disagree when you say BH (or rather, just running the FB dungeons regardless of getting exp or not) is not a bad thing, and in fact helps people learn.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · June 2010

ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »

Just as well you cannot.

You really fail on a number of levels. You're being defensive... not sure why. You're supposedly a veteran player who has been around a long time, yet you can't even acknowledge the detrimental effects that leveling much faster has brought to the game. And you think sin is a support class. Sure, I guess you could also say cleric is a DD class too.

As I've said, we can control multiple mobs, and we can do it while they are spread out. You need them to be in a group in order to effectively control them, not to mention you need to always have a spark for one of your stuns, and the other needs 35 chi. Once you run out, how quickly do you get that chi back? One skill alone puts me back up 185 chi, and I still have two other skills to give me 200 more, one being the freeze.

What level did you even get your BM up to? I also have smack, bolt and can always add occult to the list.

Apparently you haven't done any of the higher instances, sure your sin performs crowd control in fb39 really well.

Well, I've never tried controlling a delta crowd with Assassin, so I cannot argue with this, but seeing as I can run very fast and use Alpha Male to get their attention, along with two great speed skills and a genie that recovers energy very quickly for Holy Path, I think I could probably do very well. I'll test it out once my Assassin reaches that point and let you know how it goes, and we can see how it would work in that instance.

lol End of discussion. Yeah, maybe you can even replace barb in GV too. I've done delta with sins a number of times. You're just high. Arguing for the sake of arguing is silly and it's become obvious that you're not speaking from experience.

I know many different people from many different servers and versions. You're really coming across as a skilled debater, however you're not coming across as a veteran player. And if you really are, you you're playing devils advocate and your stance is pointless because you aren't a new player. It wouldn't matter if you took 6 months to patiently level or hypered to 100 in a few weeks. The overall mechanics of the game have already been learned and you'd gain little or nothing having to become familiar with them, because you would already instinctively know them better than most.

I suppose then you don't remember what people were like when they first started playing? People didn't know how to do a lot of things back then that we know now. Remember when RB wasn't popular and considered a waste of time?

Yes, I do remember. I also know by the time a player got to a moderately high levels they knew their classes much better than new players who speed level to 100. It's odd how you're such a veteran yet can't even see or acknowledge this. I call BS on your 'experience'. You're a 7x sin. You can get to 7x in a month of casual gaming. Perhaps you have been playing a long time, you just don't play often or regularly.

b:bye

laalo · June 2010

1) PVE server + bh and X2 drop
2) PVP server + bh and X2 drop
3) bot server 150 level (bot is free and insert into client)
4) experiment server: people work to create now mob graphics and maps and quest
5) *1000exp and drop server and levelcapt = 500 (pvp zone with vip armor)

possibility to change pg to 1 and 2 and 2 at 1

TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide · June 2010

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6594402&postcount=60

Omg I just remembered that FB in my 1st few days on RT . Qui just how many SSs/links of PW happenings stuff do you keep ?

Hard mode Server --> leave your opinion =)

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