Why are people flaming others about light armor like its a curse?
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Sangodoc - Dreamweaver wrote: »That's simply not true. If it was "the worst of both worlds" then that TT99 LA armor you refer to would be PDef = 185 and MDef = 726, and it's not. It's PDef = 723 and MDef = 1125, which is better than both of those "worsts". You're unfairly comparing only the parts where it's worse, and ignoring the parts where it's better.
No, I'm not ignoring anything. The weakest link is the weakest link, even if you're taking an overly optimistic view. LA does not offer as much pdef as heavy armor, nor does it offer nearly as much mdef as arcane. So you're really picking a compromise that is not better in either category. LA has better stats than the worse stat of either heavy or arcane. It is far better to make up the difference with ornaments and excel in one than be average in both, IMO. After refining ornaments, your weaker defense isn't going to be significantly lower than the LA, but your stronger defense will be much stronger.
It's just unrealistic to expect that you're going to carry two sets of highly refined and sharded armor at end-game unless you spend a lot of money.It's a decent balanced armor set, and not as terrible as some seem to claim.
(Please note: I'm not saying LA is better than other armors, I just saying it's not significantly worse, so which is better for you really comes down to your preferences regarding damage vs. survivability. Most prefer more damage, thus LA isn't for them.)
LA is just fine at earlier levels and as you said is fairly balanced. I'm not commenting on that because frankly, pre-8x gear doesn't really matter as much and the difference isn't as great.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
HA->people will hit you with magic, so pdef hardly matter.
AA->people will hit you with physic, so mdef hardly matter.
LA->whatever people hit you with, you have higher resist against it than HA or AA.
This is why LA have a total lower defence than HA or AA, because LA don't give you the weakness that can be exploit.
However, late game pdef and mres get very high, and the difference no longer matter.0 -
MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »I love how other put an LA Veno down as well as an HA down they obviously haven't seen the former leader of Legendary who is HA Veno.I have seen some very good LA Clerics and know of one that does just well.
There has never been a HA veno leader of legendary. There was a LA veno who struggled with her endgame armor after she gave up on LA for a 99+ set.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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And two more 10x that have been playing for a considerable amount of time give their opinion as well.Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »The problems with LA is that it requires the most wasted stat points and comes with the lowest total defense. At the end of the day a pure LA wearer has at least 50 more wasted stat points then their HA or AA equivalent. Those AA or HA users can basically put those 50 extra points into vit.Xegeth - Dreamweaver wrote: »There is also the fact of diminishing returns. At about 10k pdef it isn't really worth it to get more. Currently I have 9k pdef along with 12k mdef and 6.7k hp as defensive stats and 12k magic attack, 12% crit and -24% channeling as offensive stats (all full buffed). And I am stil llacking last map belt, some shards on sleeves, some refines and lvl 11 stone barrier (!). I am build pure magic. Show me a LA build that gets the same defensive and offensive stats. I sharded almost pure citrine shards. Only in my legs, there are two garnets. I will repalce them once i get a decently refined last map belt or lvl 11 stone barrier.Didn't Solandri's post dispute this?
@ MD can you build this more cost effective HA build in pwcalc?
No, his actually didn't, and by cost effective i mean that for the amount that you would put into a LA build to compete with a proper AA build, you could make a decent HA build which would be better.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
I think we should all model ourselves after the set Elayne just got:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=1cfd0d859e0e4be1
GRATZ ON 103 ELAYNE! b:chuckleGuild History:
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xxunseenspecxx wrote: »I still say VIT cleric is the best. b:chuckle Then again, much like the LA debate, I could give all the proof in the world and people will still be all like "NU UHHHH YOU SUX0RZ COEM JUMP ON MY PURE MAG BAND WAGON NOOOOOB".
Everyone pretty much agrees that vit cleric is the only viable tw/pvp build... unless you're LaTrappe or Kelbin who can afford to be pure int. And most people agree that LA past 90 is pretty bad.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »Everyone pretty much agrees that vit cleric is the only viable tw/pvp build... unless you're LaTrappe or Kelbin who can afford to be pure int. And most people agree that LA past 90 is pretty bad.
You'd be surprised. I know you're active on the forums so I know you see some of the ridiculous threads about cleric builds and which is best... and yes... damn Trappe! If I could afford the things he can I wouldn't be VIT either b:sad But since I can't, the next best thing... VIT.Guild History:
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Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »No, his actually didn't, and by cost effective i mean that for the amount that you would put into a LA build to compete with a proper AA build, you could make a decent HA build which would be better.
Well make one then; you seem pretty confident about it. I want to see this HA build and compare it to my LA build.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Well make one then; you seem pretty confident about it. I want to see this HA build and compare it to my LA build.
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=69e4b445a04cecbf
Not gonna lie, this actually does look EXTREMELY comparable to a LA build... I think I'm just a damn good build maker. b:cuteGuild History:
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Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »There has never been a HA veno leader of legendary. There was a LA veno who struggled with her endgame armor after she gave up on LA for a 99+ set.
I thought the leader who you replaced was an HA Veno as I have seen her in game wearing HA as well as SS.
Akasera is the name.Looking for a decent casual understanding Faction.0 -
@ Axt: 25% crit, i'd like to know how much crit you'd have had if you were straight arcane. is it not true that the LA build itself gives you like, 5% extra crit at most? how much dex are you putting in anyway?
The thing with LA builds on other classes is this:
you are sacrificing more str and dex points than necessary only to wear this armor. light armor uses a lot more points that is not your primary attribute than arcane armor, which removes flexibility. the refine is slightly better, but you'd really notice this when you have massive refines. arcane wearers can place points into vit to make up for the hp difference. i can see venos going LA because they want to play with foxform, but most clerics and wizards i've seen at high 9x to 10x are arcane.
LA is not worth it for the pdef because buffs become very powerful. you can achieve very nice pdef while wearing arcane armor. some arcane wizards i've encountered have upwards of 14k-17k pdef while fully buffed. at least 10k pdef for 9x wizards is normal, it's not that hard. venos have considerable pdef while in foxform as well.
LA's more serious problem is mdef. you can't have good pdef and good mdef with LA, you can have ok pdef and inferior mdef with LA, (7k, 8k mdef buffed at most?) unless you wear mdef orns, of which case you'd have suck pdef and ok mdef. either way, why is it worth putting so many stat points into LA when you can have good pdef and good mdef with arcane armor in the first place??
with enough money, you can reach respectable defenses and hp no matter what build you are using, but arcane armor gives the best flexibility and potentially the highest attack.Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
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ax, post a realistc end-game build, not a $9000 dream build and I'll consider it.xxunseenspecxx wrote: »http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=69e4b445a04cecbf
Not gonna lie, this actually does look EXTREMELY comparable to a LA build... I think I'm just a damn good build maker. b:cute
^^ realistic end-game build... and a rather good one at that. If you still play LC, check out Hellish's gear... pretty pro HA Cleric with 8k+ matk.xxunseenspecxx wrote: »You'd be surprised. I know you're active on the forums so I know you see some of the ridiculous threads about cleric builds and which is best... and yes... damn Trappe! If I could afford the things he can I wouldn't be VIT either b:sad But since I can't, the next best thing... VIT.
Yeah, endgame cleric ideally should have 6k hp or more. That extra vit is really so important in group pvp and tw since they're focused so much.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »@ Axt: 25% crit, i'd like to know how much crit you'd have had if you were straight arcane. is it not true that the LA build itself gives you like, 5% extra crit at most? how much dex are you putting in anyway?
I'm not fully dex right now; I wish to restat to full dex once I get my nirvana gear to increase my crit further.
I think you can gain some 8-9% crit from dex alone as LA.
I've increased my m.def and p.def by refining my lunar rings and warsong belt.Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »ax, post a realistc end-game build, not a $9000 dream build and I'll consider it.
I've seen pretty much every HA and HA/AA build since I live in the veno forum and build my own HA builds. Your build, whatever it is, would not surprise me - and I'll say it now it won't be straight out "better". It may be better in defence, but defence is not everything.
The only build that comes really close to LA's offence/defence combination is hybrid HA/AA, but then again you would lose out on crit and gain a few % more p.def/m.def with it.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »ax, post a realistc end-game build, not a $9000 dream build and I'll consider it.
Yeah, endgame cleric ideally should have 6k hp or more. That extra vit is really so important in group pvp and tw since they're focused so much.
I have about 6.8k HP un-buffed and I've had the same gear for a year XD Wish I could afford the refines and shards for arcane+garnets to achieve around the same hp and more magic but whatever. In mass PvP you don't even notice other than my damage is so gimped since my weapon is extremely outdated :P Who uses green HH90 weapons now days? rofl
And I already posted a HA build for you >_> It's surprisingly better than I'd have thought... and actually comparable to a LA build... odd o_OGuild History:
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There is one thing people are basing all their "LA suxxors" on. The fact that supposedly, all LA users are actually going to use that TT ****. I've got some 3star gear that completely outshines the TT **** due to the adds on it. It completely blows the P-Def on the TT99 out of the water due to multiple P-Def adds, as well as coming with some very nice regens. I'm also packing an AA set to boot, so I can switch to that when I absolutely need Mag Def for any reason, or I need the channeling on my Sleeves and Robe. With the build I have, and various Fox Form skills, I pretty much have absolutely no problem surviving anything that gets thrown at me. I've been in several parties where a barb, or BM, has done something extremely stupid, requiring me to use Alpha Male and save the party. When members of the party start asking you, "How the hell are you still alive?" You know you're doing something right. b:chuckle0
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Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »...If you still play LC...
o_O I'm in your guild! I'm not even trolling behind a fake avatar like I used to and people don't recognize me XD
Edit: I guess it's cuz I don't play on my former main anymore b:surrenderGuild History:
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I've seen pretty much every HA and HA/AA build since I live in the veno forum and build my own HA builds. Your build, whatever it is, would not surprise me - and I'll say it now it won't be straight out "better". It may be better in defence, but defence is not everything.
The only build that comes really close to LA's offence/defence combination is hybrid HA/AA, but then again you would lose out on crit and gain a few % more p.def/m.def with it.
I'll say this again... I know I've said this in the veno forum, probably not so much here, but LA is a better build for veno than it is for cleric or mage, but still vit-arcane garnet or heavy refined are both superior to LA, for all the reasons I've stated as well as many others. Sure, it may suit you better, but in the end you'll be weaker to both phys and magic attacks than either arcane or heavy users.
At endgame, the 4-5 points of crit you would get from statting dex for LA just isn't worth it.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Same things can be said for HA and AA, so that crit rate isn't anything "extra" compare to HA or AA. You still get only 5% extra.
I don't think so - its the LA items combined with high base dex that builds the crit rate.
Good example is the LA heavenrage boots, which give you 10 dex alone.Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »I'll say this again... I know I've said this in the veno forum, probably not so much here, but LA is a better build for veno than it is for cleric or mage, but still vit-arcane garnet or heavy refined are both superior to LA, for all the reasons I've stated as well as many others. Sure, it may suit you better, but in the end you'll be weaker to both phys and magic attacks than either arcane or heavy users.
At endgame, the 4-5 points of crit you would get from statting dex for LA just isn't worth it.
As I said, give me a veno HA build and I'll compare it to a LA build. Don't pull stats out of your ****. The final crit an LA veno will gain is more than 4-5%. If it was 4-5% I wouldn't be arguing.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
xxunseenspecxx wrote: »o_O I'm in your guild! I'm not even trolling behind a fake avatar like I used to and people don't recognize me XD
Edit: I guess it's cuz I don't play on my former main anymore b:surrender
haha. Well you know Hellish's gear then. She's more pro being heavy than most clerics are that are arcane.... well the +11 neon purgatory helps a great deal too. lolAs I said, give me a veno HA build and I'll compare it to a LA build. Don't pull stats out of your ****. The final crit an LA veno will gain is more then 4-5%. If it was 4-5% I wouldn't be arguing.
Post your current build. I'm not gonna compete with your $9000 wish list.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Actually, as I just showed above, going HA takes more stat points away from Mag than it does to go LA. So HA means more "wasted" stat points than does LA for a mage.Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »The problems with LA is that it requires the most wasted stat points and comes with the lowest total defense. At the end of the day a pure LA wearer has at least 50 more wasted stat points then their HA or AA equivalent.
And yeah, it has the lowest total defense, but only slightly lower than AA, and without the "Achilles Heel" that either HA or AA leave you with. If all you want is the highest total defense, then you should go HA regardless of class, which seems a bit silly to me. But then I guess wanting a more well rounded defense sounds silly to some other people. ;-)0 -
Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »Post your current build. I'm not gonna compete with your $9000 wish list.
No one said you have to compete with my "$9000 wish list" build. You seem to know a way to make HA superior than LA and I want to see it.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
TT99 LA needs 103 dex: http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/14976
TT99 HA needs 54 dex: http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/14928
20 dex = 1% crit
If you stat what you need for the Armor, LA build has a whopping 3% crit more than HA. If you stat 60 dex while wearing HA, to get one more crit, LA has 2% more crit. Ijs...[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Sangodoc - Dreamweaver wrote: »So, yeah, about 23% less damage on average, in that example, when including crits. In other words, on average it takes that LA 4 hits to kill something that the AA could kill in 3 hits. Is the added survivability worth the difference? That's up to the individual.
Simply put, while LA isn't the best at any one thing, it isn't the worst at any one thing either. It's a decent balanced armor set, and not as terrible as some seem to claim.
(Please note: I'm not saying LA is better than other armors, I just saying it's not significantly worse, so which is better for you really comes down to your preferences regarding damage vs. survivability. Most prefer more damage, thus LA isn't for them.)
Vs a Physical attack, the HA does best, LA is in the middle, and AA is the worst.
Vs a Magical attack, the AA does best, LA is in the middle, and HA is the worst.
Vs a Physical attack against a mage or cleric with lvl 11 pdef buff, the extra pdef of LA is diminishing returns while gimping mdef at the cost of attack damage. So really, you're losing some mdef and attack damage for some extra and mostly unnecessary pdef.
For venos, HA isn't as imbalanced as you say because they don't need vit because all HP will be restat to compensate, while LA will not have that luxury of statting 3 vit. The moderate increase in pdef will mean little to an archer or bm and the noticeably worse mdef will hurt them vs other casters.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Sangodoc - Dreamweaver wrote: »Actually, as I just showed above, going HA takes more stat points away from Mag than it does to go LA. So HA means more "wasted" stat points than does LA for a mage.
And yeah, it has the lowest total defense, but only slightly lower than AA, and without the "Achilles Heel" that either HA or AA leave you with. If all you want is the highest total defense, then you should go HA regardless of class, which seems a bit silly to me. But then I guess wanting a more well rounded defense sounds silly to some other people. ;-)
I was speaking about "pure" builds, as in a pure archer vs a pure cleric vs a pure barb. The archer has the most wasted stat points and gets the lowest total defense.
HA is the best armor followed by arcane followed by light.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Isala - Sanctuary wrote: »There is one thing people are basing all their "LA suxxors" on. The fact that supposedly, all LA users are actually going to use that TT ****. I've got some 3star gear that completely outshines the TT **** due to the adds on it. It completely blows the P-Def on the TT99 out of the water due to multiple P-Def adds, as well as coming with some very nice regens. I'm also packing an AA set to boot, so I can switch to that when I absolutely need Mag Def for any reason, or I need the channeling on my Sleeves and Robe. With the build I have, and various Fox Form skills, I pretty much have absolutely no problem surviving anything that gets thrown at me. I've been in several parties where a barb, or BM, has done something extremely stupid, requiring me to use Alpha Male and save the party. When members of the party start asking you, "How the hell are you still alive?" You know you're doing something right. b:chuckle
TT has only slightly better defenses than its 3star counterparts, but the thing is that each piece has 3 adds, of which at least 1 is a hp or vit add, and of which at least 2 adds of any piece is useful, except for the damn boots with 2 regen adds. a full set of TT90 gives more than 500 hp. it would be hard to find 3stars that can beat TT equipment overall. besides, if you never get TT, you will never have TT's set bonuses at 99. i suppose -interval wouldn't appeal to someone that likes foxform (or would it?)Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
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I've read the majority of the thread.
This is what I believe.
When everything hits hard, LA won't save you. You need a really high reduction in either phys or mag to take hits comfortably. And this comes from AA or HA.
AA by itself is actually equally bad to LA in terms of defenses. What people seem to be ignoring is the typical AA users have means to acquire a great increase in what their armor lacks - Pdef. This makes AA users vastly superior to LA.
Typical LA users have no way to take hits comfortably. The devs most likely anticipated this and as their easy-wasy-out, I believe they gave LA users skills that negate hits in its entirety, or greatly reduce the damage received in the next hit or next few hits (reason why genies were a godsend to LA users). Classes that were designed to use AA or HA don't really have these type of skills because the combination of their armor type and ability to self buff allows them to take hits and survive.0 -
Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »TT has only slightly better defenses than its 3star counterparts, but the thing is that each piece has 3 adds, of which at least 1 is a hp or vit add, and of which at least 2 adds of any piece is useful, except for the damn boots with 2 regen adds. a full set of TT90 gives more than 500 hp. it would be hard to find 3stars that can beat TT equipment overall. besides, if you never get TT, you will never have TT's set bonuses at 99. i suppose -interval wouldn't appeal to someone that likes foxform (or would it?)
It depends on what you're using Fox Form for, really. -Interval is completely useless if you're using Fox form for the skills, and extremely useful if you're using it for the regular attack, due to the already quick attack speed on our magic weapons. That being said, Fox's greatest survivability, for me, at least, consists of spamming two skills over, and over again. Befuddling Mist, which, when maxed, is an AoE that reduces accuracy by 70%, and Leech, which when maxed, is an 80% chance to gain 600 HP, or in my case, being sage, a 100% chance to gain 640, I believe... Those are unaffected by - Interval, and even - Chan really has no real effect on it. I'll just keep my gear with + PDef, and +HP regen. Since, really, as a Veno, I'm only being hit when some really bad **** happens, I need the HP regen to get back up on my feet. Could I use the extra DPS with the Interval gear? Probably. But if I really want DPS, I'm more powerful in caster form anyway, and I have the -chan for that on my Robes. b:victory0
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