TT distrubtuion round robin really fair?

Slivaf - Dreamweaver · February 2010

First off let me say this I know this has been debated a lot, and thus far to MY KNOWLEDGE no one has came up with something like this. I also know one came up recently but I don't want to necro it up, besides chance of people reading it is a lot higher then if I were to necro up someone else's post about it.

Anyways now on to my suggestion FOR THE PLAYERS not the gms, obviously. =x

Is it really fair that the barb and cleric get the same pick order EVERY time the pick order completes? I for one don't think so. The first round pick every single round, is pretty sad, the first time they get something 'great' it should MORE then cover there costs. With the system in place now, barbs and clerics could EASILY get 2 gba's in one go at the TT, which is NOT fair to the dd's.

So how do we fix it? Well I may just have a solution that's a LOT fairer then this current system.

I say instead of the barb and cleric always getting first and second pick and then dd by level, highest to lowest. WHEN there is more then one mat to go around between 6 people. Why not make it so that is how it is done the first 'round' and on the second round it would go FROM the LOWEST level in the squad to the highest. Third round if any, it would go from the highest to the lowest. Also there will be times where the barb is still the lowest in the squad, but this idea in my honest opinion, is better then the barb always getting 2 of the best mats per TT run.

EXAMPLE:

First Round:
1st pick 86 Barbarin
2nd 91 Cleric
3rd 93 DD
4th 88 DD
5th 85 DD
6th 84 DD

Second round: (if any)
1st pick 84 DD
2nd 85 DD
3rd 86 Barbarin
4th 88 DD
5th 91 Cleric
6th 93 DD

Third Round: (if any)
1st pick 93 DD
2nd 91 Cleric
3rd 88 DD
4th 86 Barbian
5th 85 DD
6th 84 DD

EDIT: Trying to make it less complicated, and I may fail but meh, here's the method without the numbers.

First Round: Normal way (Barb, cleric, Dd by level)
Second Round: Lowest to Highest
Third Round: Highest to Lowest

So yes the lowest level in the squad would get 2 back to back picks, but I really think this idea is a LOT better then barb and the cleric always getting first pick each time the splits come around.

BAH while this was kind of rushed, I KNOW that barbs and clerics have there fees but as I more or less STATED ABOVE the first round pick MORE then makes up for both the clerics, and barbs' amount of losses during the tt.

Please stop being greedy, and make it a bit more probable for dd's to start completing there gears in a reasonable amount of time, instead of them constantly having to wait until double drops to get the things they need.... err rather want. (WITHOUT having to sell) It is EXTREMELY annoying messing with trying to sell the junk that hardly anyone wants while barbs, and cleric get filthy stinking rich during TT runs. That or make us do the same thing to you all when we get our barbs and clerics up to par to TT.

EDIT: Thanks to a few replies from a couple of people I have decided to come back here and do a better job at explaining myself, so if you mention something about this in this thread, well thank you for bringing it to my attention.

While this thread may seem like its an attack on barbs, and cleric who are "all" greedy, please know this, I do realize not all barbs and clerics are like this, and I do apologize that it sounded like I thought all barbs and clerics were as so, "greedy." I know that not all of you are, but still a lot of you SEEMINGLY are.

Also please do remember each server has there OWN way of doing things, while the subber undoubtedly has costs for subbing, here on dreamweaver our solution is pretty simple, and fairly adjustable, though yes like every way of distribution, it too is sometimes flawed but no where nearly as bad as this round robin **** going on.

Euphy - Dreamweaver · February 2010

I always saw [Tank -> Cleric -> DD] more as a guideline. Generally, you can ask people what they need and let them work for that. If, for example, its a TT:2-2 and everyone needs Dust of Stars then either do it several times (agreed before hand) or run it with your faction.

Honestly I don't trumpet costs and such... but I ran three TT's last night and I spent a good 300,000 on potions and a bunch of Apo-celepills I made myself. The goal of a TT is not for me to break even, its to actually profit. Furthermore, when the party whipes (and it does) clerics either have to pay for Guardian Scrolls (chaching) or they're the one person expected to lose experience; either way it can get expensive quickly. So there is a reason the order is in place. Blademasters can honestly tank most bosses, and so can venomancers, so if you really need a certain drop or first pick why don't you offer to do that instead?

My main gripe with your system is that I generally don't want to do three runs back to back. Furthermore, the DD-level tier is fair imo. A lv.93 simply does more then a lv.84. Why the hell should he be last? Just communicate with the people in your squad before your set out and, in my experience, people will work it out for themselves.

Haden - Dreamweaver · February 2010

I think Im more tired of seeing these posts than barbs and clerics getting first pick...

*Insert Standard issue response here*

Barbs get first pick because charm and repair bill, clerics get second because of charm bill.. Get used to it.

Besides your a Blademaster, you should be able to tank the majority of the TT's you're after..

So if that was the case and you went in and tanked, guess what would happen? YOU would pick first to compensate repairs.

Maybe cough up some coins to the tank to get them to not pick first, like 10-15k per person on both the the tank and cleric to make it worth their time to pick last.

Or run with people who base it on Priority, not prosperity

Euphy - Dreamweaver · February 2010

Haden sums it up =]
Fyi, if you need a cleric for TT, I'll do it

Slivaf - Dreamweaver · February 2010

Haden - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I think Im more tired of seeing these posts than barbs and clerics getting first pick...

*Insert Standard issue response here*

Barbs get first pick because charm and repair bill, clerics get second because of charm bill.. Get used to it.

Besides your a Blademaster, you should be able to tank the majority of the TT's you're after..

So if that was the case and you went in and tanked, guess what would happen? YOU would pick first to compensate repairs.

Maybe cough up some coins to the tank to get them to not pick first, like 10-15k per person on both the the tank and cleric to make it worth their time to pick last.

Or run with people who base it on Priority, not prosperity

Meh did you read my post WHOLE post? The FIRST round pick MORE then fills up there losses from tanking, and using charms, especially when the gold prices aren't inflated.

EDIT: Also yes I realize this has been posted a lot, but meh this current system really needs a change.

Asperitas - Lost City · February 2010

Haden - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Maybe cough up some coins to the tank to get them to not pick first, like 10-15k per person on both the the tank and cleric to make it worth their time to pick last.

I'd do this every time if I could. But the problem is the value of the mats as we escalate in the TT's greatly increases, so much that it far outshadows the cost of repairs. I doubt any tank/cleric would actually do this.

ElderSig - Dreamweaver · February 2010

Honestly i think the cleric should pick before the barb....b:surrender

Slivaf - Dreamweaver · February 2010

ElderSig - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Honestly i think the cleric should pick before the barb....b:surrender

Honestly I would have to agree. =x Though this is how it has mainly been done unfortunately (for the clerics)

@Euphy Thank you, I will keep that in mind.

Also to be honest you really should have some 'sick' gear in order to tank the higher tt's whether we bms like to admit it or not, our hp, and gear is often lacking to truly tank some instances, properly.

Secuoia - Heavens Tear · February 2010

You are also forgetting the subber here, imagine you are doing a tt 2-2 run so you would basically need 2 clerics for wurlord and ape

So, subber>tank>2 clerics, now the 2nd clerics doesnt have the chance to pick up good items unless 4 dusts dropped luckily :P so the 2nd cleric and sometimes the first cleric also dont pick good mats and so with your system DDs would be benefiting more than cleric

yes i know im a DD but for the reasons the TTs are run i only run tts when i sub, or to help a friend, otherwise i generally dont run them bc i dont profit that much, maybe i will in higher lvls b:bye

ExELFine - Heavens Tear · February 2010

Secuoia - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You are also forgetting the subber here, imagine you are doing a tt 2-2 run so you would basically need 2 clerics for wurlord and ape

So, subber>tank>2 clerics, now the 2nd clerics doesnt have the chance to pick up good items unless 4 dusts dropped luckily :P so the 2nd cleric and sometimes the first cleric also dont pick good mats and so with your system DDs would be benefiting more than cleric

Exactly my thought. The OP totally forgot the subber. So if anyone wants first choice picks all they need to do is sub the run and everyone is fine. That's for general random squads.

As for guild squads, whoever subs, mats go to the ones who need it, although in large guilds, there seems to be a lot of abuse going on but that's a different topic altogether.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · February 2010

When I ran HH on my archer I always hated the drop order. But after tanking HH myself I've realized just how much more it costs when your the tank. Running it on my archer is really easy, I just sharptooth the boss, then auto attack, then pretty much go AFK and check out forums or something. Not much work involved really, and my costs are very minimal, repair my bow and buy arrows is about all I really have to pay for. Doing it on my barb I have to pay attention so I can make sure I have aggro, cancel bosses spells. Repairing armor alone is easily more than double what I have ever paid on my archer, then there's charms, hell I can easily spend 100k on one run just on perfect stones.

So yea, I can easily see now why barbs should pick before DDs.

Besides, even with the drop order I've always managed to get something worthwhile out of HH runs when DDing, granted not as much as the tank or cleric, but usually something to make it worthwhile.

Now if I'm going with a friend who needs something for his HH gear then yea, I'll let him get that drop.

Conavar - Heavens Tear · February 2010

2nd round of picks doesnt need to be based on level TBH.

After the first round (were other classes get mats to cover their costs and more) just reverse it.

Who picked last 1st round now picks 1st..

Ie:

1st round:

Subber
Barb
Cleric
Veno
Archer
Wiz

2nd round:

Wiz
Archer
Veno
Cleric
Barb
Subber

Tbh though if Im running TT for mats I need rather than helping then I will sub or run with friends on need before greed basis.

FatherTed - Dreamweaver · February 2010

I actually tend to agree with the OP to some extent.

As for the subber, just give them enough mirages to cover the subs or let the rest of the party chuck in some coins to cover the subs. I've never been a believer that the subber deserved a top pick.

As for drops, I honestly feel a bit dirty sometimes getting the 2nd and the 8th pick. If I watch a BM bust his butt saving people or an archer/veno/wizzie helping make the bosses dead way faster than they would be without the DDs, and then have to watch them get stuck with 6th and 12th picks - it honestly doesn't seem all that fair to me.

The way I see it is : when I agree to go into TT, I know what I am getting myself into. I crtainly won't speak for barbs, as I've never tanked a TT on my barb. But as a cleric I know what it's going to cost me, and I accept that before I go in.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · February 2010

When I do HH I usually don't give the subber first priority, instead we just give the subber all of the mirages that drop.

It's fair in my opinion, A HH2-1 run takes 2 subs so about 120k for subs, and we usually get about 6 mirages or more, so it seems to balance out.

I sub runs sometimes, if i need mirages for refining or whatever.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · February 2010

I already prove it(in another thread), that my mana spend is higher than cleric around 2mana/s the same spending mana is only when he always nonstop using iron heart. Cleric is of course more important than me but he doens't have more mana spending. They still qq about mana but nobody want to see wizard mana spending. I not gonna looking for this thread where I proved it. But if some1 will argue that is not true swear to god I will find it. It was counting mana/s.
And unfair distribution is reason why I stopped do TT.b:angry

FatherTed - Dreamweaver · February 2010

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

When I do HH I usually don't give the subber first priority, instead we just give the subber all of the mirages that drop.

It's fair in my opinion, A HH2-1 run takes 2 subs so about 120k for subs, and we usually get about 6 mirages or more, so it seems to balance out.

I sub runs sometimes, if i need mirages for refining or whatever.

That's how I prefer to do it as well, Baldy.

Conavar - Heavens Tear · February 2010

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

When I do HH I usually don't give the subber first priority, instead we just give the subber all of the mirages that drop.

It's fair in my opinion, A HH2-1 run takes 2 subs so about 120k for subs, and we usually get about 6 mirages or more, so it seems to balance out.

I sub runs sometimes, if i need mirages for refining or whatever.

Only problem with that system in random squads is " How do the DD's ever get the mats they need ? "

If you remove the subber from getting 1st pick, then the poor Archer, Wiz, Bm, Sin will never get mats since the Tank, Cleric will always take the best (most expensive) wether they need them or not.

So no Imo ruling the subber out of first pick isnt really a fair idea

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · February 2010

You make it sound like only 1 of each mat ever drops, and that each HH only contains 1 mat of value. When I needed mats for gear on my archer I never had problems because of the drop order. If needed I could trade 2 mats for 1 of the ones I needed. Now, granted with the lower level HH instances, then sometimes there is only 1 mat of value, but once you get past HH70 then usually everyone gets at least 1 drop of value.

If your doing HH and you only get 2 mats that are worth anything, then you must of done something bad cause karma is getting back at you.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · February 2010

Conavar - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Only problem with that system in random squads is " How do the DD's ever get the mats they need ? "

If you remove the subber from getting 1st pick, then the poor Archer, Wiz, Bm, Sin will never get mats since the Tank, Cleric will always take the best (most expensive) wether they need them or not.

So no Imo ruling the subber out of first pick isnt really a fair idea

Problem is, to find some1 for TT when I'm subber and banker. Because tank, and cleric know that they are just 2th and 3th. And then they don't want to go.

tweakz · February 2010

Let's not bring up Sage Herc Venos with Sage Amp and Sage Soul Degen that can cut down the time in half, cut repair costs and MP costs to 1/5, etc etc. Count us as DD, and that's why we prefer to solo or turn you down for help. b:scorn

Venos take heavy losses in TT squads also, since we could do the TT in just 2x the time and end up with 4x the drops. -That is lost potential.

Kama - Dreamweaver · February 2010

The inability for the majority to find a way to split where everyone is happy erodes my faith in people.

Its all in who you play with. There can't really be a set method on a fair way set to split due to the fact that TT squad layout, mat values, items dropped, and resources used all change. This long-standing debate has valid points on all sides of the isle and there is no true resolution.

So where does this leave us now? I'm glad you asked.

Step 1) Accept the fact that life isn't fair and neither are TT splits.
Step 2) Try to run in smaller squads. Less people = larger splits and less people with "needs" to accomidate.
Step 3) Use mat values. People will often take multiple cheaper mats if offered to skip expensive mats.
Step 4) When time allows, do multiple runs.
Step 5) If all else fails you can do like me. Reroll veno, get a herc, tank, bank and decide the splits yourself.

I do agree though, round robin is BS and a double edge sword. Most people just pick the money mats even when their "needed mat" is available if it has a low value. Take 2-3 for example. If you're making TT90 glaive, you need arms and wheels.. who is going to pick those over antenna? Banker should add up the value of the wheels and arms till they're about equal to antenna and have that count same as 1 antenna. With round robin system, you'll end up with arm for first pick, wheel for 2nd pick and totally take shaft on value.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear · February 2010

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

You make it sound like only 1 of each mat ever drops, and that each HH only contains 1 mat of value. When I needed mats for gear on my archer I never had problems because of the drop order. If needed I could trade 2 mats for 1 of the ones I needed. Now, granted with the lower level HH instances, then sometimes there is only 1 mat of value, but once you get past HH70 then usually everyone gets at least 1 drop of value.

If your doing HH and you only get 2 mats that are worth anything, then you must of done something bad cause karma is getting back at you.

You obviously havent done the higher TTs. In 3-1, all the mats are 10k-150k, & then there's Giant Beast Armor worth over 1 mil. Thats the only mat worth anything. Now unlike 1-x & 2-x, the percentage drop chance is signifigantly lower in 3-1, and yes it calculates out to an overall spread average of 4 GBAs in every 5 runs (so not even an average of 1 per run but close). So um.... Say again hows the DDs gonna get the valuable mats they need? Even in 2-3 the differential of non-valuable compared to valuable spreads out, with an average of 2 arms & 2 antennas per run, thats only 4 valuable mats per run, the rest arent worth squat. So those last in line always are going to get their mats when? TT80 & below the distribution system isnt that bad. TT90+ it completely falls apart.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear · February 2010

Kama - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Step 2) Try to run in smaller squads. Less people = larger splits and less people with "needs" to accomidate.
Step 3) Use mat values. People will often take multiple cheaper mats if offered to skip expensive mats.
Step 4) When time allows, do multiple runs.
Step 5) If all else fails you can do like me. Reroll veno, get a herc, tank, bank and decide the splits yourself.

All this is basically my work-around. I made a Veno a long time ago, its lvl 100 too. I Basically run lots of TTs as a duo with another Veno. These runs are strictly money value based runs. While granted if someone needs a particular mat, the mats tend to go on that person end split, its still done by value. Dividing by 2 is easy. I tend to bank, i add up the approximate value of all mats based on last sales (which are relatively accurate from selling all the time), and divide them into piles of equal value (ussually 2 piles as a duo). Sell off, use money to get the mats or other items I actually need. Everyone is happy.

Honestly i dislike how ppl try to say "need before greed", When thats a disguise for putting yourself in front of others. Whether you're selling to buy what you need (doesnt even need to be to buy TT mats, could be to buy skills, etc), or keeping the mat to not have to buy it & save money, it all boils down to money value. There is no need, its all greed... or maybe there is no greed, its all need... Ok not sure but its all equal whether you're selling or keeping the mats to use.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · February 2010

You obviously havent done the higher TTs. In 3-1, all the mats are 10k-150k, & then there's Giant Beast Armor worth over 1 mil.

I don't know how things are on Heaven's Tear, but when I played on my archer I wasn't even able to get 800k ea for my GBAs. And the other mats only worth 10k-150k? I've been able to sell ribbons and the other mats for 1-3 from anywhere to 200-400k each. Now yes, GBA is worth a lot more, and on average I do get I'd say 2 per run. But a DD should never say that it's impossible to get the mats he needs. Yes a DD is going to have to do more runs than a tank or cleric to get them all, but it's really not that difficult.

And I don't get why everyone assumes you need 6 people for every single HH. HH 3-1 is really easy IMO, why not just do it with Barb, cleric, and 2 DDs? 4 people = less people to split mat drops between.

Again, as someone whose done HH as both a DD and a tank, I can say that the drop order is fine as it is.

Conavar - Heavens Tear · February 2010

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Problem is, to find some1 for TT when I'm subber and banker. Because tank, and cleric know that they are just 2th and 3th. And then they don't want to go.

Yeah thats were the greed before need kicks in.

Despite the debate about pick order if you are after a particular mat its always best to run with Faction or friends.

I never run random squads if Im after mats. I only ever do them to help or if Im bored, that way Im not bothered about the pick order

Now yes, GBA is worth a lot more, and on average I do get I'd say 2 per run. But a DD should never say that it's impossible to get the mats he needs. Yes a DD is going to have to do more runs than a tank or cleric to get them all, but it's really not that difficult.

And I don't get why everyone assumes you need 6 people for every single HH. HH 3-1 is really easy IMO, why not just do it with Barb, cleric, and 2 DDs? 4 people = less people to split mat drops between.

Average of Two per run is high but lets go with that.

2 GBA's drop: They will always be taken by the Tank, Cleric .(Thats in a 4 person squad)
So the DD can run a 100 3-1's and still not get a GBA. He/She if left having to buy them.

So yes pretty unfair to remove the subber from 1st pick IMO

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · February 2010

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

I don't know how things are on Heaven's Tear, but when I played on my archer I wasn't even able to get 800k ea for my GBAs. And the other mats only worth 10k-150k? I've been able to sell ribbons and the other mats for 1-3 from anywhere to 200-400k each. Now yes, GBA is worth a lot more, and on average I do get I'd say 2 per run. But a DD should never say that it's impossible to get the mats he needs. Yes a DD is going to have to do more runs than a tank or cleric to get them all, but it's really not that difficult.

And I don't get why everyone assumes you need 6 people for every single HH. HH 3-1 is really easy IMO, why not just do it with Barb, cleric, and 2 DDs? 4 people = less people to split mat drops between.

Again, as someone whose done HH as both a DD and a tank, I can say that the drop order is fine as it is.

Ok let me tell this. From lv.95 you can get event helm and boots all have repair cost 1. Also if you have any rank equipment it's also repair cost 1. And my mana spend is much more than cost 1.
I don't know about robes maybe they are also repair cost just 1. But helm and boots lower repair cost significantly. And on weapon I have repair cost also and not low. It's around 75k when it drop to 10/135. Of course it doesn't happens in one TT run but same is with your weapon.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · February 2010

Conavar - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yeah thats were the greed before need kicks in.

Despite the debate about pick order if you are after a particular mat its always best to run with Faction or friends.

I never run random squads if Im after mats. I only ever do them to help or if Im bored, that way Im not bothered about the pick order

You right. If I do TT run is just for my faction and all mats going to faction bank. Then when I need some mats I pay just 1-2 substance and I'll get it.

Celestyna - Heavens Tear · February 2010

I often leave tt with a few mirages or nothing at all for my time cause I just went to help not to profit. so please dont lump all barb/cleric's into the same "always picks the most expensive mat" catagory, sure some do but not all

To the one who said mages have higher mp cost that might be true but you can probably get away with having no charm, you dont need res scrolls and you wont loose xp when you die.

For need runs - call it before you start. i.e Joe needs X mat and Sue needs Y mat, if joe and sue both also need Z mat then whoever is closer to having thiers completed OR closer to needing the item(level wise) gets it. people who need no mats get mirages or just know that your gonna come along and help them later.

for money runs - I have done money runs just me and my bf (who is a veno), we calculate the costs of subs, charm use and food for his herc then split the money from the drops accordingly. sometimes we bring a friend along we calculate her costs in as well before selling all and spliting, it just works best that way. the key is you have to trust your squad members, trust they are telling you thier real costs and trust that the one selling will split it evenly and give you your share.

Kama - Dreamweaver · February 2010

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

These runs are strictly money value based runs. While granted if someone needs a particular mat, the mats tend to go on that person end split, its still done by value. Dividing by 2 is easy. I tend to bank, i add up the approximate value of all mats based on last sales (which are relatively accurate from selling all the time), and divide them into piles of equal value (ussually 2 piles as a duo).

A voice of reason b:victory

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · February 2010

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ok let me tell this. From lv.95 you can get event helm and boots all have repair cost 1. Also if you have any rank equipment it's also repair cost 1. And my mana spend is much more than cost 1.
I don't know about robes maybe they are also repair cost just 1. But helm and boots lower repair cost significantly. And on weapon I have repair cost also and not low. It's around 75k when it drop to 10/135. Of course it doesn't happens in one TT run but same is with your weapon.

Cause we all have event gear right?

Call me crazy but if someone can afford to get full event gear then I doubt they need to do HH for a profit.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · February 2010

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Cause we all have event gear right?

Call me crazy but if someone can afford to get full event gear then I doubt they need to do HH for a profit.

If you buy this boots and helm it save you lot of money. Also it will make TT runs much more profitable for you. And after the time TT runs can get you back the cost what you paid for gear this 1 repair cost gear.

TT distrubtuion round robin really fair?

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