TT distrubtuion round robin really fair?
Comments
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Yea but, in order to get the event gear, I need money, money comes from HH.
Now if I did have this gear then obviously I would take into consideration the reduced repair cost from the gear, but getting it is pretty expensive.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"My understanding of women only goes as far as the pleasure. When it comes to the pain, I'm like any other bloke - I don't want to know."0 -
Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »Yea but, in order to get the event gear, I need money, money comes from HH.
Now if I did have this gear then obviously I would take into consideration the reduced repair cost from the gear, but getting it is pretty expensive.
Not so expensive 60m for both. If we consider how much money they safe you, is especially for melee classes perfect investment. And don't forget these are end-game gears so you will not change then anymore.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Here's my two cents
- Barbs do have high costs. They do need to pay attention. They cannot AFK during a fight in TT.
This doesn't make you worth 2 million coins. Yes, you do a lot of work, yes you need to keep an eye out and be alert, yes you need to be aware of certain things, but this does not make you worth a mat easily worth, ten, twenty times your repair bill.
I do not deny that you work hard, but I will gladly protest how you think you are worth so much more than a DD because of this. If you truly wanted fairness in a squad, you would accept a mid-mat worth 300k-500k because that more than makes up for your repairs. If you have 500k repairs in a TT you are doing something wrong. - Clerics, the same applies to you. You have to work hard in a squad, be aware of who needs healing. You burn craptons of mana.
You aren't worth two million coins either. I'm not saying you have an easy job but IH spam, the odd purify and an AoE heal are not necessarily difficult to cast. And for those of you who cry that you go through MP charms like a ***** - go buy event food. It won't necessarily save your charm but if you stop being lazy and use MP food and time it properly you will find your charms last a lot longer.
Just like barbs, you should be given a mid mat worth 300k-500k for your "additional work" shall we say. I will admit that you're possibly a more costly class than the barbs are but in no way shape or form do you deserve some 2 million coin mat because you did a little bit of extra work and a few more button presses than anybody else. - Everybody needs to remember that archers AFK auto-attack because this is how we deal most of our damage. We do not do it to be lazy, we do not do it to spite the rest of you who cannot auto-attack and we do not do it so that we can always go AFK.
Read again. We auto-attack because this is how we do as much damage as we potentially can. Yes, it isn't necessarily difficult, and it isn't costly, but also keep in mind arrows are not free unless you farm the **** out of some instance that is liable to drop assloads of arrows.
If you barbs and clerics get first pick/awesome mats because of your repairs and charm/pot costs, how about we archers get a free low mat or a few mirages to make up for our own costs, hmm? Of course not. You will rebuke my idea of paying an archer, or a wizard, or any mere DD for their own costs, while you clerics and barbs prance around demanding you get something to make up for your costs and a few extra button presses. - Since when did subbers get first pick? For as long as I've ever done TT, subbers are given mirages that would equal the amount the subs were worth.
The bottom line of this is: people are greedy. Barbs and clerics will demand that they get extra respect and earlier picks and better mats because they press a few more buttons and because they have high costs, but would happily refuse a wizard first pick when he points out how much mana he might happen to use.
There are some people out there who will, if you ask them nicely, pick for you. Some barbs and clerics also give their pick to somebody else out of kindness. Morals are not dead. Kindness isn't totally gone. However, greed plays a huge part in servers these days, and thus most of the time, a DD will get put down because they seem to do "less" and have a lesser cost.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 - Barbs do have high costs. They do need to pay attention. They cannot AFK during a fight in TT.
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Sounds reasonable to me, I would do that.If you barbs and clerics get first pick/awesome mats because of your repairs and charm/pot costs, how about we archers get a free low mat or a few mirages to make up for our own costs, hmm?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"My understanding of women only goes as far as the pleasure. When it comes to the pain, I'm like any other bloke - I don't want to know."0 -
Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »
[*] Since when did subbers get first pick? For as long as I've ever done TT, subbers are given mirages that would equal the amount the subs were worth.
[/LIST]
Havent a Clue but on HT thats how is has always been since before I ran my very first TT back in the day *Pulls out walking stick*.
Granted some squads might run differant setup, but all randoms squads Ive helped with have been " Subber picks first ".
Cant see a problem with it TBH, Gives the DD's chance to get the mats they want/need from the TT not AH[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
imo if your guild is not behind you helping you/organizing the runs....
lets put it this way. random runs that are not for group profit....are hard to come by and generally leave nobody with a nice taste in their mouth.The Swarm is imminent...0 -
In regards to archer arrows (too lazy to quote sorry).. please take the time to compare damage done by lvl 1 arrows (the 2 coins each, kind) and the higher lvled ones on TT bosses (24 coins +). My guild's archers have done the test and they now only bring the lowest lvled arrows possible as to cut down on cost doing runs. Yes it does DD a little bit less, but lower costs = more profits! One of those archers, using lvl 1 arrows, still manages to TAKE aggro off the herc on some bosses (if he demon sparks too early b:laugh)
About this whole thread... WOW... I've done my share of random squad TT runs (Sanctuary server).. and splitting was never an issue. We ALWAYS seperated by need and cost of mats.. meaning everyone : DD, clerics, tanks.. always end up with more or less an equal value of mats.
Being a cleric myself I do agree we have high mana cost and we have to keep a constant eye on everyones health.. but I would NEVER accept getting a 1m mat if everyone else only gets a few hundred Ks worth... I CHOSE to be a cleric knowing full well what costs it entails. I do not expect a special treatment..0 -
That's why this fixed pick order system is stupid and broken no matter what you do to try to fix it.Conavar - Heavens Tear wrote: »Only problem with that system in random squads is " How do the DD's ever get the mats they need ? "
Barb expenses for a TT run: 50k. If you're in a bad group, 100k. If you're in a really bad group, maybe 150-200k.
Cleric expenses for a TT run: Should be no higher than anyone else's. You do not NEED a charm. Charms are a horrendously overpriced means of mana regen. It's like talking your boss into to subsidizing your car purchase since you have to use your car for work, then going out and buying a Porsche. Buy some luck tokens and make herb yuanxiao. It replenishes mana for about 1/7th the cost of a charm, and unless your group screws up and you have to use Plume Shell, it'll do everything a charm can do. There is no other way to burn through 5k mana in the 15 sec cooldown of yuanxiao.*
The only cleric expense I think is worth noting is that if the group wipes, they have to burn a GA/eat exp loss to respawn in town, then run back to res everyone. Be generous and figure an average one wipe per TT run, and give them 120k for the GA.
Subber's expenses for a TT run: ~70k, 140k, or 210k.
So at maximum the expenses for these groups are about 200k more than everyone else. This can be offset by 200k worth of the least desired mats. Do some sort of random lotto to determine picking order. I suggest one person putting X piles of arrows on the ground, where X is the number of people in the group. Each pile has a different number of arrows. Once all the piles are down, each squad member picks up one pile. Whoever gets the most arrows gets first picks of mats. Second most gets next pick. etc. Person who put the arrows down picks last.
When the value of the mats which haven't been picked yet equals the costs to the tank/subber/cleric (e.g. 100k for barb + 140k for subber + 120k for cleric), those extra mats should be given to those three people to compensate them for their additional expenses. Those people can sell those extra mats to recoup their extra costs for the TT. Perfectly fair.
The true reason clerics and barbs get first pick is that they're widely considered to be required to do TT, and thus in high demand. So the first pick is effectively a bribe to get them to join your group. All this talk about repair and charm costs is just self-rationalization people make up to try to get themselves to believe they aren't taking a bribe.
*And for the inevitable "But I'm not high enough level to use herb yuanxiao" whine: Buy some sesame yuanxiao. Yes it's getting increasingly harder to find, but even at the prices I see it, it's still 1/3rd the cost of a charm per mp replenished.0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
The true reason clerics and barbs get first pick is that they're widely considered to be required to do TT, and thus in high demand. So the first pick is effectively a bribe to get them to join your group. All this talk about repair and charm costs is just self-rationalization people make up to try to get themselves to believe they aren't taking a bribe.
Love it! b:thanks
and in addition, these "need before greed" types are no different than the con artists working the streets for charity in RL. "will work for food" -yeah right. Those guys tag team suckers too.Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.0 -
lolol every class has costs. everybody burns hp charm in tt, unless they're not wearing one. clerics usually focus only on the barb, healing him even when somebody else has the aggro. it's also very rare that the cleric ever manages to throw me a heal before my charm ticks. anybody wearing an mp charm can expect it to tick, repeatedly. thats just the way they are. if they ticked at 50%, that'd be a diff story. and everybody gets an armor/wep repair bill. on 3-2 and 3-3 runs, my weapon sometimes breaks and i have to leave to repair and come back. everybody uses pots too.
now class specific costs.. venos have pet food costs (usually meats for herc, which arent as expensive anymore.. but i remember when venison used to cost 100k each, nobody factored that into the equation back in the day). then archers have arrows. clerics should have a res scroll on them (but most dont), and an angel, tho honestly most people i know carry angels regardless of what class they are. not all clerics have sage/demon res. and then theres genie skills which cost chi. as a veno i use about 200k off of my genie per run using EP. and everybody spams holy path.
with that said, i lol'd a little that nobody from sanct has posted here. i guess we just do it differently. while every squad does have slight alterations to the rules, its usually.. subber calls a mat and can expect at least one of those if it drops. everything else is just divided up equally. mirages are random, oht mats are random, crusade orders are random. banker goes around in a circle dropping 1 of everything to everybody, if there arent 6 to go around, then whoever didnt get one of the high-cost mats gets enough of the low cost ones to match the price.0 -
ElderSig - Dreamweaver wrote: »Honestly i think the cleric should pick before the barb....b:surrender
That.... or the squad just spam TT/HH all day until everyone gets what they needed, even tho its going to take a long time to do that.
Also another way to solve that problem is to just do it with your guild. It worked for me when I needed to get TT mats for my TT 70 weapon.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
✰The Nostradamus of PWI ✰
★ A not so Retired Veteran of PWI ★
✰ ~SilverCleric~ ✰0 -
Vinat - Sanctuary wrote: »
with that said, i lol'd a little that nobody from sanct has posted here. i guess we just do it differently. while every squad does have slight alterations to the rules, its usually.. subber calls a mat and can expect at least one of those if it drops. everything else is just divided up equally. mirages are random, oht mats are random, crusade orders are random. banker goes around in a circle dropping 1 of everything to everybody, if there arent 6 to go around, then whoever didnt get one of the high-cost mats gets enough of the low cost ones to match the price.
I did !! read post #38 b:victory0 -
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If you're going to do something like this, do it by points. Barb gets 120 points, cleric gets 110 points, subber gets 105-120 points, everyone else gets 100 points.Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »First Round:
1st pick 86 Barbarin
2nd 91 Cleric
3rd 93 DD
4th 88 DD
5th 85 DD
6th 84 DD
Second round: (if any)
1st pick 84 DD
2nd 85 DD
3rd 86 Barbarin
4th 88 DD
5th 91 Cleric
6th 93 DD
Third Round: (if any)
1st pick 93 DD
2nd 91 Cleric
3rd 88 DD
4th 86 Barbian
5th 85 DD
6th 84 DD
So yes the lowest level in the squad would get 2 back to back picks, but I really think this idea is a LOT better then barb and the cleric always getting first pick each time the splits come around.
When you're splitting mats, everyone can bid how many points they wish to spend on the mat. So if only a few really good mats drop, everyone will bid a large chunk of their points on those. BUT, the people who win those mats will have much fewer points to bid on the remaining mats.
So if the barb gets that 6 mil gold mat by using all his points, that's it, he gets nothing else from the TT run. Likewise, the people who missed out on the few (or one) expensive mats will still have all their points, and will thus get more of the lower value mats to compensate.
Honestly though, the best system is just to have one trusted banker sell everything, and split and mail out the money.0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Honestly though, the best system is just to have one trusted banker sell everything, and split and mail out the money.
This I agree with 100%0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Honestly though, the best system is just to have one trusted banker sell everything, and split and mail out the money.Dinath - Sanctuary wrote: »This I agree with 100%
Agree totally - honestly it's the only way I will agree to go into TT anymore. Subber gets a hair more to cover costs and the rest is evenly split.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thanks for the sig Ophida
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the best way is to only go with 2 people and not deal with anyone else. i go 2 venos, archer, cleric but its only 2 people. if we need a barb we dump one of the venos and use our barb. 2 clerics same thing. we just use whatever chars we need and can log in on 4 computers. soon to be 5.
@OP if you go on the run knowing how it would work you already agreed to the distribution. if you dont like how it is say so before you start and come to an agreement on how things will work. if you dont do this then quit whining.0 -
I don't even know why cleric & barb pick first is considered "need before greed". "Need before greed" means if the wizard is the only one who needs 5 of a certain mat for his TT90 gear, and 5 of them drop, he gets them all. Doesn't matter what other people's costs are, whether that distribution is "fair", or even if the final distribution ends up with the wiz getting everything except the mirages. "Need before greed" makes no pretense of fairness, basing priority entirely on need - if you will use it (not sell it), you get it. This **** cleric & barb pick first system is the epitome of a greed system.and in addition, these "need before greed" types are no different than the con artists working the streets for charity in RL. "will work for food" -yeah right. Those guys tag team suckers too.
About half the TT runs I do for my guild are need before greed. We announce beforehand that this particular run is specifically to get certain persons certain mats. That way there's no question about who will get what mats. Any unneeded mats are sold and the proceeds split. I've found it works better if you alternate these with a general money-making run, so people don't end up doing TT all day with nothing to show for it.0 -
I use 200k in MP food per TT run and my repair bill after a TT run is around 50k.
compensation plox
if you want the run to go faster thats an extra 100k in MP food for spamming undine strike every 12 seconds.Sins are Scissors. Psychics are Rocks.
Archers, Venos, Barbs, Wizards, BMs, Mystics, Seekers are Paper.
...and Clerics are Mushrooms.
Paper beats Rock. Scissors beats Paper. Scissors also happens to beat Rock...until Rock gets 50k+ soulforce at which point Rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine that beats Paper... and would beat Scissors but it can't find Scissors, because Scissors are invisible.
So Scissors beat Paper and avoids Rock, and that is called BALANCE. -cheze0 -
just gana comment on everyone failing here, not just the dude who made the post
ok 1stly sub and stop complaining >.> it don't cost that much and if ur worried about that farm.
get friends to help...not that hard...there's always someone willing to farm stuff for ya if they get something out of it
also....STUPID PEOPLE STOP BEING GREEDY...let people get what they what first(people who only do the dam TT runs for money and yes i am one of those people to
even though i do let people get what they need)
u don't really NEED charms(hp charm what clerics r for and mp charm u got seasemy, no idea how to spell that) so that shouldn't be counted into the dam order...
lastly the order don't really depend on $, it's more of a fact that u can't survive without a tank...they can't survive without a cleric...and dd's can b anyone(clerics or someone who can also tank) so they arn't as important....subber goes first b/c ...well...y does subber go first?????
that's my rant have fun tearing it apart all u trollers0 -
o jsut gana add 1 thing..the idea of having a banker that sells everything...don't really work since half the TT squads r random, no one really knows everyone in the squad, i wouldn't trust em if i just met em0
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EvylBlood - Heavens Tear wrote: »just gana comment on everyone failing here, not just the dude who made the post
ok 1stly sub and stop complaining >.> it don't cost that much and if ur worried about that farm.
get friends to help...not that hard...there's always someone willing to farm stuff for ya if they get something out of it
also....STUPID PEOPLE STOP BEING GREEDY...let people get what they what first(people who only do the dam TT runs for money and yes i am one of those people to even though i do let people get what they need)
u don't really NEED charms(hp charm what clerics r for and mp charm u got seasemy, no idea how to spell that) so that shouldn't be counted into the dam order...
lastly the order don't really depend on $, it's more of a fact that u can't survive without a tank...they can't survive without a cleric...and dd's can b anyone(clerics or someone who can also tank) so they arn't as important....subber goes first b/c ...well...y does subber go first?????
that's my rant have fun tearing it apart all u trollers
I haven't got the time AT THE MOMENT to go back and read the posts.
This is NOT how tt runs are ran on dreamweaver. Mirages go to subber, (and there pick order) and that's it. << Ill read/reply to other posts later.Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick
What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)0 -
Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »I haven't got the time AT THE MOMENT to go back and read the posts.
This is NOT how tt runs are ran on dreamweaver. Mirages go to subber, and that's it. << Ill read/reply to other posts later.
b:victory
dreamweaver rules gooooooooooooooodb:laugh0 -
The player that is most important for the party will always get first pick, the second most important gets the second best stuff, just how it works if you go with randoms. If the tank don't get first pick he can just leave and than you dont have a party anymore since the most crucial/hard to find party member is gone. If some random DD leaves you can just replace.
For 2-3 that would be the barb in most cases
For 3-1 it would be a veno with herc ( barb so useless in 3-1 he wont even get to book mirages lol)
For 3-2 and 3-3 a well geared archer tends to get first/second pick of drops since they tank half the bosses
Its unfair indeed, but supply and demand, really nothing you can do about it. There goes 20 DDs on 1 tank. Sadly in many cases barbs are greedy morons and think they can get away with booking the most costly green + the gold in most instances, which i why i made my own barb so i don't have to deal with them anymore ^.^0 -
every subber in runs I've been part of gets mirages, nothing more. (well, and the usual picks)ExELFine - Heavens Tear wrote: »Exactly my thought. The OP totally forgot the subber. So if anyone wants first choice picks all they need to do is sub the run and everyone is fine.
this is how I'd like to see it go:
Tank
cleric in level range (if non in range, than usual cleric picks)
DDs in level range, by level
others by level
let's say a TT1-1 with the following:
89WB
79C
80BM
60V
56Asn
99Wiz
by normal round robbin it would go:
89 Barb (who in 1-1 shouldn't need jack, I've seen some pass picks because of this)
79 Cleric
99 Wizard (now what could they POSSIBLY need?)
80 BM
60 veno
56 Assassin
by my idea, which is for more reasonable to those that NEED the drops:
89 Barb
79 Cleric
60 veno
56 Assassin
80 BM
99 Wizard
what you guys think?I'm a guy, not a woman, that is all
"When you're on Team Bring it, every morning your feet hit the floor, the good lord says "good morning" and the devil says 'Oh **** they're up' " - Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson
Are you on Team Bring it?0 -
Still not finished by any means, but thank you for stopping by to reply.Kama - Dreamweaver wrote: »The inability for the majority to find a way to split where everyone is happy erodes my faith in people.
Its all in who you play with. There can't really be a set method on a fair way set to split due to the fact that TT squad layout, mat values, items dropped, and resources used all change. This long-standing debate has valid points on all sides of the isle and there is no true resolution.
So where does this leave us now? I'm glad you asked.
Step 1) Accept the fact that life isn't fair and neither are TT splits.
Step 2) Try to run in smaller squads. Less people = larger splits and less people with "needs" to accomidate.
Step 3) Use mat values. People will often take multiple cheaper mats if offered to skip expensive mats.
Step 4) When time allows, do multiple runs.
Step 5) If all else fails you can do like me. Reroll veno, get a herc, tank, bank and decide the splits yourself.
I do agree though, round robin is BS and a double edge sword. Most people just pick the money mats even when their "needed mat" is available if it has a low value. Take 2-3 for example. If you're making TT90 glaive, you need arms and wheels.. who is going to pick those over antenna? Banker should add up the value of the wheels and arms till they're about equal to antenna and have that count same as 1 antenna. With round robin system, you'll end up with arm for first pick, wheel for 2nd pick and totally take shaft on value. Your mere mention of the word "round robin" got me thinking, and set this idea in motion, and while I admit it isn't the best way to fix this dilemma, its better then all the other "fix's."
I can't see how anyone would really like the subber to go and get first pick. Though yes then everyone would have a chance at it, but still, the costs of mirages/ultimate subs is FAR FAR out weighed by the costs of the cleric, barb, and well I guess any class that is pretty much forced to constantly use magic to attack.
Also while I do agree those are all very good way's of fixing this 'round robin' as you put it, I still don't like having to do that, that seems almost as underhanded/greedy as always taking the first pick. So unless something similar to my plan gets implemented or something better, then Ill probably just stick with you, you are by far the fairest splitter I have met on dreamweaver. Though I must admit that was the first ever duo I did, and boy was that a lot less frustrating then 6 people. =x
One more thing (not directed at kama in any way) as someone stated in the later tt runs one mat easily costs WAY WAY more then the other mats, and on this double run as I put it... its pretty unfair for the barb and/or cleric to end up with 2x of the most expensive drops from there to resell, and have trick out gear a lot faster then any dd could ever hope, lest they do some cash shopping.
*Goes back to reading replies*ChaseyLain - Lost City wrote: »the best way is to only go with 2 people and not deal with anyone else. i go 2 venos, archer, cleric but its only 2 people. if we need a barb we dump one of the venos and use our barb. 2 clerics same thing. we just use whatever chars we need and can log in on 4 computers. soon to be 5.
@OP if you go on the run knowing how it would work you already agreed to the distribution. if you dont like how it is say so before you start and come to an agreement on how things will work. if you dont do this then quit whining.
On the contrary Chasey I am not exactly technically whining, I am offering an alternative to fix the problem, a LOT of dd's seem to be having, its annoying having to sell the lesser mats, it IS hard to do so, and we are lucky if we get half of what a barb or cleric would get from the selling of drops.
Also another tidbit of information for you, I haven't really went on tt runs much lately due to this BS round robin ****, I am tired of being stuck with what I can get, while barbs and cleric easily make lots and lots of money from the run, even after the factor in of there costs. This double drop week(s) has made it worth while for me to go on TT.
/End reply towards chasey
@The reply about the point system, (barb 120, Cleric 110, Everyone else 100 in my opinion [I still think mirages more then suffice, and do a nice job at adjusting of the price for substances]) I do like that idea, I really do.
@Everyone else, Please know just because I didn't quote you or reply to you it does NOT mean I didn't read your post, it would simply take too much out of me to reply to every single thing in here, but I DO thank you for your time on reading this topic, and probably for a lot of you... its a "oemgee another one of those, eh? *Click* =x" Kind of thought.Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick
What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)0 -
Don't do random squad TTs.
/end thread.b:dirty0 -
Ninnuam - Sanctuary wrote: »Don't do random squad TTs.
/end thread.
That's what I said just do it with your guild if you have one.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
✰The Nostradamus of PWI ✰
★ A not so Retired Veteran of PWI ★
✰ ~SilverCleric~ ✰0 -
Thats why I go on TTs where I'm the tank, cleric, and DDs so I get first pick, second pick, third pick, fourth pick, fifth pick, and sixth pick. b:pleasedyoutube.com/chezedude0
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I ama edit my main post here pretty soon, found some other things I would like to address in my original post.Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick
What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)0
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