Why Should Veno's Have a Ranged Pet?

Does cactopod type pet and the marksman type have the exact same range?

NecroKitty - Harshlands wrote: »

Does cactopod type pet and the marksman type have the exact same range?

Not sure, probably going by when I've seen someone using one.

tweakz wrote: »

I haven't tested on other cactopods. I'm absolutely sure that the 89+ cactopods from Eden have significantly greater range than the current Eldergoths though.

That's great to hear. I haven't been leveling my marksman because I use it so infrequently, and have been looking for a high level replacement.

Solandri will probably update us on the new figures on which would lure faster under different conditions.. Kowlin or these Longer Ranged Pets. b:laugh (Ty ahead of time -lol). My guess is their range is about 15m.

Edit: LOL, Brael you posted those distance figures the same time I posted the above. Here it is again using your figures and the correct speed for Celestial Sting:

Kowlin - assume 2.5 m attack range, 10.4 m/s @ 90
Celestial Sting - 14.2 m attack range, 8.8 m/s @ 90

The two have equal lure times at distance x

(x-14.2)/8.8 = (x-2.5)/10.4
10.4x - 14.2*10.4 = 8.8x - 2.5*8.8
x(10.4 - 8.8) = 14.2*10.4 - 2.5*8.8
x = (14.2*10.4 - 2.5*8.8) / (10.4 - 8.8)
x = 78.6 meters

Kowlin is faster at greater distances. Sting is faster at shorter distances. Since it seems the max range to order your pet to attack is around 40m-50m, time-wise the Celestial Sting is significantly faster. If the cactus firing animation is pretty clear, then I'd say Sting is the winner. Best of both worlds - range and time.

Additional comparisons:
Marksman - 11.8 m attack range, 7.8 m/s @ 90

Kowlin-Sting equivalency is at 78.6 m. Kowlin is faster further, Cactus is faster closer.
Kowlin-Marksman equivalency is at 39.7 m. Kowlin is faster further, Marksman is faster closer.
Marksman-Sting equivalency - there is none. Cactus is always faster.

When we assumed the Marksman's ranged attack was 10m, the equivalency distance was 32.5m, which pretty clearly favored the Kowlin. The bump up to 11.8m pretty much makes it a dead heat. So given that and the Sting's clear advantage, except for moving mobs or hidden mobs (where you need the skill indicator to tell you when to unsummon), I'm changing my recommendation on puller to a Marksman or Sting.

For non-dangerous pulls, a zeal genie is still a lot faster though.

interesting thread. there's a lot of information, so i would like to see some conclusive oneliners. i think that would help out people to decide whether or not to get or try out a ranged pet. if i understood ya'll correctly, here's some examples of what i have in mind:

1) A ranged pet (marksman, sharpshooter, inamorato, celestial) is theoretically a better puller than a fast running melee pet like kowlin.
2) In certain situations (like the bosses provided in OP), a ranged pet is an effective and efficient tanker compaired to hercules.
3) In situations with mobs/bosses with AOE or bramble skill, a ranged pet is an effective and efficient DD alternative to melee pets.

does that sound about right?

also what i would like to know:
* are pierce & howl melee range skills? if they're ranged, i can imagine having a ranged pet as both DD and debuffer pet, which would be a nice replacement for my kowlin.
* how do you guys feel about marksman/sharpshooter/inamorato/celestial as DD pets? i'm looking for a ranged pet for conclusion 3) - a pet that does significant damage but doesn't get hit by bosses with small AOE.

i'll name you a situation where it's not just about unsummoning pet in time (skil activation bar thing that you just named). brigand & linus in FB79 - 50% of the time pet gets hit - and that's not because i don't pull pet out in time. my kowlin (87) barely survives that situation. also pulling out coredash boss from his room in TT3-1 is 50/50 on his first action. sometimes coredash starts hitting on kowlin before kowlin even gets in range. sometimes it starts hitting on kowlin after he's fired off flesh ream / bash.

but like said in OP, this thread is not only about having an alternative for pulling. and no, it's not only about "how to do it right".

verse wrote: »

1) A ranged pet (marksman, sharpshooter, inamorato, celestial) is theoretically a better puller than a fast running melee pet like kowlin.

Time-wise, the kowlin has a slight advantage over the marksman if you start at 40-45 meters (max range where your pet will attack). However, with the new data Brael provided on attack range, this works out to less than half a second, which IMHO is not significant enough to make a difference.

Mobs seem less likely to aggro onto your pet if you send it in with its attack skills off. I haven't collected numbers on this yet, but that's been my general observation so far since playing with this idea. To make a ranged pet attack at range, you have to turn its skills off anyway. Turning the kowlin's skills off removes its primary advantage over the ranged pets (the bright red attack animation which tells you when to unsummon).

2) In certain situations (like the bosses provided in OP), a ranged pet is an effective and efficient tanker compaired to hercules.

Yes. Those bosses tend to use weaker attacks when ranged compared to melee. So even though a ranged pet like a Marksman has weaker defense than a herc, the weaker attacks actually make it easier to spamheal.

The drawback is that a ranged pet without skills does low damage. So fights will take longer, and if you're grouped it will be that much easier to steal aggro from the pet. Like Brael, I don't have the time or patience to sit at a world boss for 2-4 hours soloing it. But if that sort of thing floats your boat, why not.

3) In situations with mobs/bosses with AOE or bramble skill, a ranged pet is an effective and efficient DD alternative to melee pets.

I haven't run into much which uses bramble, and I'm usually in fox form so can just purge it. AOE is a tricky matter - tweakz's Marksman has strong and protect (the two herc defensive buffs). Unless you also have those scrolls, I'd say just use a herc against AOE mobs.

The point was more mobs (bosses really) which use AOEs which can hit you if you have to heal a pet which is in melee range. Because a ranged pet attacks from about 10m further away than a melee pet, you can stand 10m further away from the boss and still heal your pet. In many cases this puts you outside the boss' AOE range, whereas you'd be in the AOE if healing a melee pet.

* how do you guys feel about marksman/sharpshooter/inamorato/celestial as DD pets? i'm looking for a ranged pet for conclusion 3) - a pet that does significant damage but doesn't get hit by bosses with small AOE.

I ran the numbers some time ago. With one attack skill like Bash, the kowlin does more damage than marksman. With two they're about equal. With three, the eldergoth is better.

Between the marksman and sting (L89 cactus):
attack - marksman is slightly higher
hp - marksman is significantly higher
def - cactus is moderately higher
speed - cactus is significantly faster
range - cactus attacks from significantly further

Pick your poison.

Yurikko - Lost City wrote: »

I use a Shadou cub for my luring half the time, it's higher def and hp allow me to run in hit the mob I need and get out, most of the time I do this without it even taking any damage what so ever. If your pet is dying in the process of luring, you really need to get some more practise in. The key is to watch the pet's attack skill (e.g. Bash) and as soon as you see it activate on the pet bar, stow the pet, don't worry if the pet's animation hasn't kicked in,

The skill activates on the pet bar at the end of the attack animation. So if you use that as a guide, you're leaving your pet out longer than it needs to be. That's what's so nice about the kowlin - its attack animation is a bright red whirlwind which you'd have to be blind to miss. You can unsummon it right at the beginning of the animation (before the Bash or Flesh Ream skill is greyed out on the pet bar), and it practically never gets hit.

However, as I mentioned above, pets seem to draw less aggro if you send them in with attack skills off, which eliminates this as an advantage of the kowlin. Couple this with the new speed calcs and the fact that I've switched to a zeal genie for the easy pulls, and I can no longer recommend the kowlin.

verse wrote: »

as for the use of a debuff pet, i still think it's valid also at high levels, but heavily dependent of situation. usually at World Bosses everybody is just spamming the boss... only if ampiflied would be spammed so often b:chuckle but in that situation, having debuffs most of the time is most important, so yeah if i can get a full cycle weaken with ironwood and pierce then it's all fine.

The usefullness of a debuff pet is more a matter of your party's composition than its level. If you're frequently in a full squad with cleric and barb, then yeah a debuff pet is kinda useless. Or if you're in a tough fight where the cleric has to spamheal the barb, then a debuff pet may be the only source of debuffs available. (The game seems to have a sync problem when switching targets, so a cleric having to switch quickly and frequently between the mob and the barb is just asking for trouble.)

Barbs tell me that if they're tanking, they prefer to use their chi for aggro rather than debuffing the mob's pdef. So if the barb is tanking, you will still want to apply Ironwood or Pierce. Given how much chi Ironwood sucks, I'm beginning to suspect you get max damage trading off between the pet's Pierce and your Ironwood, and using the chi you save for a spark eruption.

Threaten still has a role to play if you're in a group without a barb. Since the skill lasts 15 sec with 30 sec cooldown, ideally you want two pets with it as their active skill. Just have the second pet fire it right when the first pet's Threaten runs out, then leave the skill on auto.

And AFAIK, if you don't have a cleric in the group, Howl is the only source of mdef debuff.

verse wrote: »

i'll name you a situation where it's not just about unsummoning pet in time (skil activation bar thing that you just named). brigand & linus in FB79 - 50% of the time pet gets hit - and that's not because i don't pull pet out in time. my kowlin (87) barely survives that situation. also pulling out coredash boss from his room in TT3-1 is 50/50 on his first action. sometimes coredash starts hitting on kowlin before kowlin even gets in range. sometimes it starts hitting on kowlin after he's fired off flesh ream / bash.

but like said in OP, this thread is not only about having an alternative for pulling. and no, it's not only about "how to do it right".

Eh, for Linus/Brigand, I tend to use my Armoured bear, activate the tough skill and send it in, it may get hit once or twice but the damage is minimal, because that's generally only the additional mobs that have hit not the bosses. As much as I can see a use for a ranged pet, I do rather the other pets, just a personal choice. In the end, all that matters if the boss is running at the tank without additional mobs.

But also, the reason the Kowlin dies so fast, is because it has barely any defence, it's graph clearly stats it's a fast moving high attack power pet, which is actually more suited to land pvp, really, in my opinion. You need to use a pet that has the ability to take a few hits so it can land a blow. That way when the boss does start to hit before your pet is there, it won't get one shotted and can survive long enough to do it's job.

verse wrote: »

i'll name you a situation where it's not just about unsummoning pet in time (skil activation bar thing that you just named). brigand & linus in FB79 - 50% of the time pet gets hit - and that's not because i don't pull pet out in time. my kowlin (87) barely survives that situation. also pulling out coredash boss from his room in TT3-1 is 50/50 on his first action. sometimes coredash starts hitting on kowlin before kowlin even gets in range. sometimes it starts hitting on kowlin after he's fired off flesh ream / bash.

but like said in OP, this thread is not only about having an alternative for pulling. and no, it's not only about "how to do it right".

I never had a kowlin, I use guardian wolf since 4x and left it at lvl 77 (lazy to lvl so many pets). So far didnt fail to lure... of course it has less speed than kowlin but more defence and I could lure brigand & linus just fine just wait a bit till linus is going away from brigand or the other way around.
(The only way to get a kowlin is to tame it myself, i'm not paying anything, so probably still no kowlin in the near future)

I found the pod to be a pain to level on OMA mobs BUT is a 2 shot deal on Array Guards in OHT w/o pet skills! No

What does OMA and OHT stand for?

OHT = Old Heavens Tear (map that's accessable after you've finished the Chrono Wheel quest at or above level 70.)

Has anyone tried the Abominations of the Plain (apes east of Burning Heart/southeast of Thousand Streams Southern Outskirts)? Are they ranged or melee?

Dont know about you guys, but I "used" tame pet to lure brigand/linus in the past. Dont know if that changed along with luring with genie skills.