Take a Step Back

Silverhawk - Dreamweaver · November 2009

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

Now, we all know that while this IS a free to play game, it is supported by those of us who are willing to pay.. correct? yes.. Good, now that we have that base put in place let us consider another corner of our construct here.

I buy Zhen. Others buy Zhen. We pay to keep this game running. Yes, and because we pay we honestly 'should' have some slight advantage. So let us all agree that Cash Shoppers DO deserve to have some advantage for the money they put in the game. Good.. that is the second corner of our construct...

~Saitada

Enjoy your Advantage while half of the Game Community has already Quit and the other half are soon to Quit with the coming Expansion that's gonna drive up Gold Prices to god knows how much, 1m+ perhaps ? Glad I can play perfect world for free, just not Perfect World International.

b:victory

Aoe - Heavens Tear · November 2009

I think it's very extreme for people to say remove the option to buy gold in ah and make all cash shop items nontradable. For one it won't stop the constant qqing. People will still complain about things being unbalanced in game. This idea could end up damaging pwi in the long run. F2P MMORPG need both type of players to keep it running. Making it so that cash shop things are unavailable creates a greater rift between players than before. It also makes the game unappealing. You find many mmo's that do this for a f2p don't last very long. Because one the free players feel like they will never accomplish something and two the paying players can never exchange items for in game coins.

So people want to solve a problem not create more. I do think players need to understand FULLY that this game is not a pay2play game. There is no monthly subscription fee. So this game will not operate like a pay2play, and there will be unbalance in the game. There will be inflation in the game, especially with more coin being introduced. To create a coin sink it needs to be a permanent item that is needed and is sold at an npc. Lots of games have these kind of coins sinks weather it's food for pets, chips to fight mobs, etc. This might help a little with the inflation.

Also people need to fully understand development, customer service, and marketing. Marketers of the game's items is what decides what stays in cash shop and what does not. In other words money makes this game world go round. Regardless of complaints by what 6% of the population maybe 50% or higher is feeding money into the game for an item. Sorry free players no offense to you but this is all in truth. Marketing isn't going to look at words but at numbers. Numbers say right now anny packs increased their profit and they will keep it going another two months or longer as long as they see high profit.

If something is causing them to lose profit or have lesser cash shoppers you can guarantee there will be a change. It's called business. Now will this hurt the game in the long run maybe, but as long as profit margins show going up anyone in disagreement with cash shop items will not be heard until profits drop. What i can't stand is people come to this game and dream of a fantasy and forget all about reality. Please face the truths the game is not free. You have the option to play it without paying. However if all of us did that than the game would close down.

What people need to remember is just because someone can buy things in a cash shop doesn't mean you still can't play and enjoy your game. You can still get TT items, you can still work hard towards end game gear, you can still earn money for in game mounts, and you still can obtain rewards from dq. Lol stop looking over you neighbors fence eyeing his brand new pool, when you should be cleaning up the mess in your own yard.

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary · November 2009

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You have my vote for this.

Lolz. How long do you think the game would last, seriously? You have my vote too, just so I can come back and laugh at you all when they're forced to close the servers. -.-

Azelya - Dreamweaver · November 2009

I REALLY like putting CERTAIN words in CAPS to TRY and prove a POINT i'm making. I THINK it really GETS my point ACCROSS.

qaaazy · November 2009

Such a big bark-

Yet, no bite.

The topic is agreeable- However;
Prices will go down, as soon as the peoples pockets you have filled deplete. Other then that, I cannot see gold prices dropping for a long time to come.
It takes all of the idiots to cooperate and start buying/selling lower to actually lower any price, and seeing as how none of the idiots can get along- That will simply not happen.

Also, if I may.... Who will you sell gold to when us "idiots" decide we cannot compete with the zen chargers any longer, and we decide to leave. I mean- Surely you cannot sell Zen to one another, and eventually all of the idiots who CAN afford what you have to offer will lose interest. Then what happens to PWI?
The game revolves around two sets of people here. And the Non-zen charging players play an equally vital role as the zen-charging players do, because without us- you would only ever charge zen for yourselves, and selling zen would turn out to be a pointless thing because no one will be left to buy it.

You see?
So you also play a role in the prices being so insane- You cannot simply blame this who situation on one set group of people.
It takes two to tango-

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear · November 2009

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Lolz. How long do you think the game would last, seriously? You have my vote too, just so I can come back and laugh at you all when they're forced to close the servers. -.-

Not sure, however we do have some chests that provide coins in exchange for gold...

Most games make it illegal to resell gold, and they are very successful. (that new game.... that other old very popular game, even that one space mmo).
Most F2P do not allow for ALL items to be resold either, there is usualy some items that can be traded in-game, but the best ones, like the gold memberships, are non-transferrable.

I am sure it would just swich the complaining from gold prices to the fact that some people were able to get XYZ item.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · November 2009

Aoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I think it's very extreme for people to say remove the option to buy gold in ah and make all cash shop items nontradable. For one it won't stop the constant qqing.

it was just sarcasm :P

Nelanther - Lost City · November 2009

Cash shop items should be limited to things that give zero strategic advantages ideally. Only small children wouldnt see the problem with introducing shortcuts that are not available to everyone.

Imagine how interesting football would be if a team was allowed to start on the 50 yard line for a small fee. Or start the game with 7 points for a slightly larger fee. It ruins the game for everyone involved.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · November 2009

Nelanther - Lost City wrote: »

Cash shop items should be limited to things that give zero strategic advantages ideally. Only small children wouldnt see the problem with introducing shortcuts that are not available to everyone.

They just buy cause they can. You know, like how adults buy and go to fancy restaurants and expensive homes n cars, technically they dont NEED it :P everything is based on WANT. EVERYONE has luxuried themselves on occasion whether it be in games or a cup of starbucks with whip cream on top. And when we do, and pple whine "WHY do YOU get that!", we scrunch our brows and tell them 'cause we PAYED for it?'

Imagine how interesting football would be if a team was allowed to start on the 50 yard line for a small fee. Or start the game with 7 points for a slightly larger fee. It ruins the game for everyone involved.

That would probably be the case if the owning companies or sports companies had to nothing to fund them :P

Nelanther - Lost City · November 2009

You miss the point. In a game there has to be a consistant and fair set of rules. This isnt real life. This is a game.

If one footbal team drives fancy cars and the other team doesnt that does not affect the game being played on the field.

A self respecting person would not want an unfair advantage because they understand the importance of integrity.

Homaru - Harshlands · November 2009

Nelanther - Lost City wrote: »

You miss the point. In a game there has to be a consistant and fair set of rules. This isnt real life. This is a game.

If one footbal team drives fancy cars and the other team doesnt that does not affect the game being played on the field.

A self respecting person would not want an unfair advantage because they understand the importance of integrity.

QFT.

Except you forget the power of greed.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · November 2009

Nelanther - Lost City wrote: »

You miss the point. In a game there has to be a consistant and fair set of rules. This isnt real life. This is a game.

Again this is a WANT, not a need, due to PWI not being a game that is being forced on us.

If one footbal team drives fancy cars and the other team doesnt that does not affect the game being played on the field.

A self respecting person would not want an unfair advantage because they understand the importance of integrity.

A self respecting person i think would know when to uninstall than to make the mods life harder and drag on a QQ thread about how unequal their pixel life is.

Conclusion: Deal with it. The door is wide open.

hemoglobin · November 2009

well said, i agree

Quilue - Sanctuary · November 2009

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

They should like take out the gold AH and make boutique items non tradable and watch. Some pple dont realize how much they lost till they dont have it no more.

AAAH~ nooo they shouldn't! quit being a meanie and take me on your next bh run b:chuckle

rhapsodus · November 2009

PWI is a game. and therefore is there for the enjoyment of its players. and it fails to be enjoyable when one class of players is elevated above the rest, to such a height where we commoners have no say in what happens, and we commoners are driven to a corner with no other way out.

and when we are driven to such a corner, we fight back. and we try to regain what we believe is equality. a compromised equality. i don't mean cash shoppers should be on an equal level with us free players. but your advantage should be a relative advantage, not an absolute advantage.

just because we play a game for our leisure doesn't mean the authorities can **** with us however they want. just because we dont NEED PWI to survive, doesn't mean that it shouldnt be run and managed the best it possibly can. and just because half of us dont pay to play this game doesnt mean we can just be disregarded as a non-factor in this equation because we are every bit as important as you cash shoppers are. without us, this game is dead.

telling everyone "suck it up or gtfo" is signing your death warrant. but hey, if that's what PWI wants, then we'll all leave sooner or later, the way things are going.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear · November 2009

rhapsodus wrote: »

PWI is a game. and therefore is there for the enjoyment of its players. and it fails to be enjoyable when one class of players is elevated above the rest, to such a height where we commoners have no say in what happens, and we commoners are driven to a corner with no other way out.

and when we are driven to such a corner, we fight back. and we try to regain what we believe is equality. a compromised equality. i don't mean cash shoppers should be on an equal level with us free players. but your advantage should be a relative advantage, not an absolute advantage.

What gives the cash shoppers an advantage over non-cash shoppers players? Since all the items in teh cash shop are tradable and you can even buy gold with in-game coin, doesn't that make it so non-cash paying players also have access to the same items?

rhapsodus · November 2009

there's a difference between accessibility and obtainability.

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary · November 2009

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Not applicable. Just because people are willing to pay high prices does not mean the gold sellers HAVE to price it high. It's still gold seller greed.

If they priced it lower, it would just be a gift to people like me, since bulk Gold buyers can scoop up such offers very quickly, while the average player usually can only afford a few Gold at a time.

I figure I'm already making a huge profit buying at 500k, so why be greedy and expect to be able to buy at 400k? Why not share the wealth with those who are willing to put real money into the game?

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · November 2009

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

AAAH~ nooo they shouldn't! quit being a meanie and take me on your next bh run b:chuckle

barrage lv10 pl0x b:cry

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear · November 2009

rhapsodus wrote: »

there's a difference between accessibility and obtainability.

Yes, and currently both are still possible.

Having the ability to obtain cash shop items with in-game coins just means you have to grind for it. At this point, it is still possible to do that, even if things cost a little more. However, the increase in prices are not due the people that use money to buy gold, it is due to people that buy gold with coins, since they choose how much to buy gold for....

Obviously those packs did not help with the 10mill coins for 2 best luck tokens, but both cash paying and non-cash paying players had the same chances. In fact, quite a few of cash paying gold seller, did just that, they sold the gold instead of buying the packs themselves.

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary · November 2009

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

You need to be able to calculate where the profit line is going to be or you really cost yourself more than you make. To buy and resell you basically have to buy low and then resell at 20,000 coins higher than you purchased to break even at current prices. More to make any reasonable amount of profit.

What you're saying is true, but there are a lot of players who won't use the AH to get Gold. They either don't want to learn how the AH works or else they don't want to go through the bidding and waiting process.

The net result is that you can put in low buy orders, then sell cash shop items at or even slightly above the current sell orders. You avoid the 2 silver selling fee, and make money off of other people's impatience. Usually this results in about 10% profit, but it can swing wildly from as low as 5% to as high as about 30%.

truekossy · November 2009

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What gives the cash shoppers an advantage over non-cash shoppers players? Since all the items in teh cash shop are tradable and you can even buy gold with in-game coin, doesn't that make it so non-cash paying players also have access to the same items?

Cash shoppers control the source and supply. What do you think would happen if, hypothetically speaking, every cash shopper decided to stop selling gold via the AH and would, instead, only sell the items you could buy from the boutique and only at prices they saw fit (which would never be below 200k/gold thanks to chest of coins)? And this is assuming they kept the packs in the boutique.

A: The free players would get fed up with it and quit, making the only ones who played here those who charged zen.
B: The free players would wind up having to pick at scraps and hand-me-downs to even attempt to get a toe in on those who charged zen.
C: It would be universally known that it wasn't worth playing with those who didn't charge zen and that they'd be easy targets in PvP servers due to lack of gear for high-end instances/bosses and/or transportation for avoiding PK.

Now normally here, this is balanced in the fact that while cash shoppers do have an advantage, those who don't charge zen are able to work hard in-game to get to a level that can let them compare to those who charge zen, as well as there being certain things that can only be gained from within the game (See: DQ mounts before they were added to boutique as an example) which gives those who can't/don't charge zen a bit of leverage to work with.

Right now, though, let's compare what two people brand new to the game can do. One who charges their debt card, and the other who tries the good ol' work hard for your stuff routine.

Levels:
First 10 levels are even enough. They both start their quests and are doing decently. Then at level 10, the guy with the card realizes he can buy scarlet fruits for instant levels. He then skyrockets to 30 and from there on, he can use oracles to get wherever he wants. Guy who doesn't charge? Still working his butt off on those low level quests.

Coin:
The guy charging zen goes to AH, sells 1 gold for 500k, is now set for quite some time (or buys some chest of coins and uses hammers to open them). The guy who doesn't? Still attempting to establish a decent enough amount of coin to try and attempt to afford his own character's basic costs before he can even try and get in on the marketing scene and attempt to make a profit.

Gear:
End-game gear for 1 gold vs for spending a few days in front of the computer for hours on end after finding and making connections to people who can assist you and getting a good enough reputation to have people help you out often. No contest there.

So yes, even if you can get the same thing as those who charge zen, the amount of effort required changes it from a game for fun to a chore you may as well not bother with. Especially when things like chest of coins means that those charging zen don't actually need the free players around for... anything. Do both players have access to the same stuff? Yep! Is it as obtainable for both players? Nope!

rhapsodus · November 2009

i dont know about most people, but 200k rep is a bit too much for me. whatever the love:up and down is worth is too much for me. refining all my gear up to +8 and higher is too much. and having all of that like more and more people are now is just a faraway dream.

and the worst part is, as things like that become more and more abundant, i find myself becoming more and more obsolete. i can of course grind and dedicate myself to the game, is the time needed to actually obtain that reasonable?

before the packs, at least the playing field was semi-fair. the most you'd have is probably higher refines and a faster mount. what i loved about this game was you couldnt pay your way for gear (in the sense that you can't directly exchange cash for gear). but now that that's changed, i don't see how any sub-hardcore player can keep up.

yes. i agree. gold is high because people are willing to pay that high price.

why are people willing to pay that high price? because the items inside are worth much more than that.

and who put the items inside, knowing their value? PWI.

o_O

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear · November 2009

The trade off has always been you either use real money or you grind. Nothing has changed.

When I started, and I did not know anything about the game, it took me till level 40ish to save enough to buy a mount. That was when gold was at 100k, mind you. The big selling item was the dull claws which sold at a whopping 5k each in cat shops. Mats sold for less than 1k, and high level mats were considered junk and NPCed. Things were worth far less than they are worth now, so we had to grind just about the same ammount.

If you farm mats nowadays, you can make 500k per day just selling the wines for BHs. No RL money needed.

Cash shoppers get to trade their money for the items. Non-cash shoppers trade their time for the items. In the end, everyone has the opportunity of getting the same items.

The amount of time you coin you can make is mostly dictated by how good you are at selling what you get/farm.

I have to admit that for a new player, the bar got a little higher, however, even the mats they can farm went up in value by 500% due to the demand for USubs and BH wines.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · November 2009

truekossy wrote: »

Cash shoppers control the source and supply.

No we dont :P
about 90% of cash shoppers wholey rely on non-shoppers to buy their gold, for them to 'earn' coins. Zhen buyers are customers of PWI. The non-zhen shoppers are OUR customers for gold. Its not just once or twice i had to lower the price of selling my gold because non-shoppers refused to buy my price.

Quilue - Sanctuary · November 2009

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

barrage lv10 pl0x b:cry

why is your love for me based on the level of my barrage b:cry

Foxx - Heavens Tear · November 2009

So if PWI suddenly decided to sell 1 million coin packs for 1 gold each, you would blame the players for the subsequent inflation? Yeah blame those ebil players who "chose" to make money.

Of course the devs aren't to blame. How could they have possibly known the players would "choose" that way.

Saitada - Sanctuary · November 2009

Foxx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So if PWI suddenly decided to sell 1 million coin packs for 1 gold each, you would blame the players for the subsequent inflation? Yeah blame those ebil players who "chose" to make money.

Of course the devs aren't to blame. How could they have possibly known the players would "choose" that way.

Ignorance is bliss for you isn't it?

The players determine the price of gold. Period. Not the devs. If you are willing to pay 500,000 coin for 1 gold to get the chance to get something, then of course, someone will be happy to SELL it to you for that price. The simple fact is.. the players, and only the players determine how high the price of gold is going to be, by their willingness to buy it at that price from the sellers, who of course want to make as much bang, for their buck as they can.

Nobody forced anyone to BUY gold at 500k. Or 400k, Or 300k, or even 200k. You the buyer(s) made the choice to do so, and so the sellers raised their prices because gold was flying off the shelves.

Do the developers have an influence? Yes and No. They make things that people will desire to have yes.. but it is YOU the BUYER(s) that choose to do the buying and the getting.

Your ignorant and stupid if you think it is anything other than that.

Don't choose to buy at the high price, and it will go down. But as long as people are buying at that price, you can bet people will sell it at that price.

So pull your foot out of your mouth, wake up and smell the reality brewing. Your pathetic attempt at sarcasm was just that, Pathetic. Utterly and profoundly pathetic and shows what kind of failure you are at anything resembling logical thinking.

Using your logic, the Developers are completely at fault for you going to the Auction House and buying 1 gold for 500k. They miraculously reached through your computer, grabbed control over your mind and body and made you do this. You have no control over yourself at all. No ability to say No. No ability to refuse to cave into that gamblers desire to 'win it big' just one more time.

Nope, it is all the developers fault that YOU CAN'Y CONTROL YOURSELF.

Yes, I see. If that is the case then I suggest you stop playing the game and seek professional help for your addiction.

~Saitada

Quilue - Sanctuary · November 2009

now i think that bit was uncalled for there. if it costed 1 gold to open a pack of 1 million coins, that's pretty much the game setting gold at 1 million coins. how do you not see that? you can choose to sell gold for less, but why would you do that if you can open packs for 1 million coins yourself?

you'd either sell gold at 1 million coins or open the packs yourself with the gold. with such things as coin boxes, now the sellers provide a lower limit on gold with which they will not go below because then they can open coin boxes for themselves.

Saitada - Sanctuary · November 2009

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

if it costed 1 gold to open a pack of 1 million coins, that's pretty much the game setting gold at 1 million coins. how do you not see that? you can choose to sell gold for less, but why would you do that if you can open packs for 1 million coins with this gold? you'd either sell gold at 1 million or open the packs yourself.

How do you not see that that is not the case? First.. at minimum it costs 5 gold to get an iron hammer to open a coin box that drops 1 million coin (that works out to 200k per gold). Unless I have missed something in the game, I don't see anything in the game that costs 1 gold to open and gets you 1 million coins. I see 1 object that costs 5 gold to open that nets you 1 million coins.. thus by your logic the developers are suggesting a price value of 200k per gold.

Care to try again? Or will you continue to claim current prices for gold of 500k are the developers fault, when it is the players setting the prices by buying and selling? Remember, the developers designed the game to make money for themselves, so they ARE going to make things to put in the game that will encourage addicts with no control over their spending, to spend, that is the nature of Free2Play games, but to say it is the developers fault for the player set price of gold in the auction house, is utterly and fantastically stupid.

If you want to keep arguing that, then to be perfectly honest with you, your an idiot, should not be allowed near a computer, and should go tell your mommy to slap the **** out of you for being stupid.

~Saitada

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