Gm Make New Plan to Lower Gold Prices please.
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Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »The faction I'm in does TW weekly, however most of us cannot afford charms. I don't use them anyway so it does not effect me in that way but this just puts the gap between paying and non paying players way to huge. That kind of unbalance only hurts the game.
In my experience, when prices get high, players don't start spending real money, they just find other games to play.
I think we can all agree on that
Luckily, it doesn't affect my main (48 cleric) much
Though I'm loathing the time I have to use charms, I burnt through my supply stash spirit charm in half a level (with questing, and on a double xp weekend)[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
9x Demon Cleric0 -
Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »The faction I'm in does TW weekly, however most of us cannot afford charms. I don't use them anyway so it does not effect me in that way but this just puts the gap between paying and non paying players way to huge. That kind of unbalance only hurts the game.
In my experience, when prices get high, players don't start spending real money, they just find other games to play.
Aren't PvE server's TWs like 10 min things? I'm asking for real0 -
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Aren't PvE server's TWs like 10 min things? I'm asking for real
Our factions TWs normally last for an hour. Others last for 2 or 3. I've been in more than one 3 hour long TW.
If you look, my server has the most colorful map of any server. Meaning the brawls last the longest. No single faction owning most of the map and beating everyone in moments.Main characters
Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
Sage Barbarian Malego - 910 -
Cool, thx for the info guys0
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Then, at the opposite end of the spectrum, there's Sanctuary.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
9x Demon Cleric0 -
DeathBanana - Heavens Tear wrote: »Then, at the opposite end of the spectrum, there's Sanctuary.
Makes me glad I play on HT. I think we are a bit off topic here though?
Back to the topic.
High gold prices are bad for the game and bad for PWE.
Player greed makes prices go up, nothing more. Always wanting everything NOW is greed and always trying to get as much as you can for something is greed. Remove the greed, remove the problem.
It's not hard to not be greedy. Don't sell anything for more than you would be willing to pay for it yourself. (resellers clearly can't do that because of their incredible greed)Main characters
Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
Sage Barbarian Malego - 910 -
Woot, argument time
The problem is, the anniversary packs and the ****load of sales warrants the prices that players are putting in the AH. And sadly, it's worth it, and that's essentially why gold's so high. If there's no demand, and the greedy players are selling it for 400k, then no one will buy it; there's going to be un-greedy players with an IQ above 40 selling gold for less, because they know that's the only way it's going to sell.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
9x Demon Cleric0 -
I don't agree with indiscriminately acussing players of "greed" (here we go again...)0
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(here we go again...)
Yeah, no kidding
On the greed topic, there's not really a way to be greedy in the way the gold trade's set up. There's a way to price your gold high and make the most profit, but not specifically greedy (short of monopolizing the entire AH - NOT a good idea.)[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
9x Demon Cleric0 -
I don't agree with indiscriminately acussing players of "greed" (here we go again...)
Yeah, I don't agree with the idea of accusing gold sellers of greed. Although some of them may be greedy, which might interfere with the lowering of gold prices, many of them can't really sell the gold at a lower price at the moment without losing profit.0 -
aryannamage wrote: »The GM's don't make the prices. It is the players themselfs.
Ya wat she said ...so tell those cherry assed gold sells to lower the damn prices.. b:laugh like that will ever **** happen 0.o... so the best thing you can do is ADJUST or **** quit sugar ****.. so CHEERS!! to the "good" ol' days!b:surrender0 -
Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »Actually...no.
Person A has cash shop stuff, never goes without a charm, has highly refined gear.
Person B does not have any cash shop stuff. No refines, no charm.
They both fight the same boss and win. Person A does it easy with his cash shop stuff. Person B, since they do not have cash shop stuff, has to learn how to survive without it using various tricks/skills/items to win.
Who is the better player after this?
And this is the reason I do not care about Cashshoppers being OP. I admit, when the DQ horses came out, I was slightly Peeved, since I was one that got it through DQ orders. But as for the Lunar and Frost Gear, I dont care. In my opinion, it is more challenge Endgame. I find when I go into Dragon Temple, a good deal of the High Level (8X-90) are not nearly as strong as originally I thought. So, I think the Frost/Lunar gear will make them a slightly better challenge. (though would prefer the Defences raise, not Att. Power b:shocked )
And Yes, I do have plenty to buy a Lunar/Frost Weapon, but I prefer not to take the easy route, so I have not gotten Heaven Shatterer OR Broad Land.
So, I propose: STOP complaining and play. This is just a game. Those that spend money on it should be more Powerful than those that don't, for how do you think the gold gets there in the first place. If you want gold to lower, buy some and sell it. You can not get spoonfed everything you want. Yes, I do understand Time and Effort spent, but what about those that can not spend 24 hours a day on the computer? Those that work for a living? At least in this game, unlike some others I have played, the Payer can catch up to the people that are on the game 24-7.
Just my opinion. b:bye[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The Past is but a mere memory. Never Regret, for it can never be changed.0 -
And while i know quoting yourself kinda falls into a weird netiquette limbo, i really don't feel like writing this all over again. I should clarify it's either the devs or corporate, not the GMs, whom i believe responsible. This is on dispelling the notion that players control the economy.BludShot - Lost City wrote: »Ya wat she said ...so tell those cherry assed gold sells to lower the damn prices.. b:laugh like that will ever **** happen 0.o... so the best thing you can do is ADJUST or **** quit sugar ****.. so CHEERS!! to the "good" ol' days!This conception is IMO based on two wrong asumptions. The first one is that the playerbase is capable of concerted action in regards to the economy; Aside from the fact that we don't (to the best of my knowledge) share a hive mind, one should consider that every independent actor will make decisions based on a perception of what their best interest is. Market trends are influenced by factors independent of player's choices however, so even if on agregate it is player's decisions that determine gold prices, said choices are dependent on the regulator's (PW) actions.
The second is that the behaviour of cash flows (as coins in posession of the general public) resembles that of rl economies, it does not. Players esentially produce money through their ingame activities and do not buy it from a central bank, this eventually leads to inflation (aside from the gold system) which is the reason coin "sinks" are a necesity of game economies. Said sinks work ineficiently in PW's model and do not remove a suficient amount of coin from the game, this is a factor beyond player's control. Others that can be mentioned include:
Perfect hammers; as many have pointed out an excess in the supply of gold boxes esentially pegs gold prices to a minimum at around 200k minus AH fees and the average cost of boxes in the open market divided by five.
Sales/events; as demand soars for gold, prices tend to go up. The paradox is that while more players may be buying gold, the increased demand overides any effect increased supply may have on market prices. Some of you refer to this as "greed" and you would be right if sales were limited to only luxury items such as fashion/mounts (usually sales of these only spike prices for a few days) however, items which are either commodities (consumables such as charms, teles, etc.) are seen as exceptional oportunities (anni packs) or become a new tier of stapples (high grade gems) introduce long term distortions, both foreseable and outside player's control.
Speculators; Market dynamics by themselves influence a small number of players to try and benefit from price fluctuations. This in itself introduces a second layer of complexity as variations in the behaviour of these players may wildly affect short term prices. Remember economic bubbles? The regulator can negate most of the negative effects of these by providing certainty and predictability on it's supply side, the playerbase as a whole cannot.
Market confidence; The very real possibility of high end or valuable items obtained ingame being subject to sudden depreciation by itself pushes big spenders towards CS items which are more likely to retain their value. This raises gold prices and encourages hoarding which itself punctuates and amplifies economic stresses, as millions of coins are poured into the market everytime demand for gold rises.
I could go on but this already may be the largest wall of text i've ever produced in a forum.0 -
GMs can control gold prices very well and however they want. Double exp/drop events, limited CS offers drives gold way up, as everyone's seen recently. It's not hard to lower the prices either: GMs can always inject more gold to economy through auction at chosen price (fixing the lack of supply and creating a coin sink since the money will be withdrawn from the economy) or temporarily placing NPC vendor with CS items for coins (which is effectively same).
Cheap gold = ppl that normally charge zen need to spend more to get certain amount of in-game coins => better for PWE.
Expensive gold = for those that never charged zen, doing so becomes an option => better for PWE, ppl that charge zen anyway may now spend less though.
The question is, which of these betters makes sales of zen higher. Since the prices were cheap in past and now we have high prices, I think GMs will have enough data to compare both approaches soon enough and they make decision of what they prefer, cheap of expensive gold.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Cheap gold = ppl that normally charge zen need to spend more to get certain amount of in-game coins => better for PWE.
Flawed reasoning, as you are only looking at the side of resellers. Cheap gold leads to people using coin to buy that gold instead of buying it with zen, which results in losses for PWE. Also, instead of reselling gold at some price, they would just not sell it all and use it for their own purpose. Really, I doubt that majority of the cash shoppers are cash shopping as a means of acquiring in-game coin.If you disregard what I say because of who I am or because of the contents of what I said, you are a fool.
Everyone wants to be different, but when you're different you wish you were normal.0 -
for everyone who thinks that devs can't control gold prices
coin boxes. you have to be stupid not to see that as a blatant attempt to jack it up to 200k minimum. if it needed 1 gold to open, **** we'd be done. coin boxes wouldn't keep the price of gold down, it'd only act as a minimum. let's just make that part clear.Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »coin boxes. you have to be stupid not to see that as a blatant attempt to jack it up to 200k minimum. if it needed 1 gold to open, **** we'd be done. coin boxes wouldn't keep the price of gold down, it'd only act as a minimum. let's just make that part clear.
Not saying either way, but there's another way to look at it.
If you are a gold seller, then of course you'll use the boxes as an excuse to set the 200k as a minimum. However, if you actually wanted the most profit out of the runs that drop the coin boxes, you would want the lowest possible value for coins, because if it goes over the 200k limit, it makes the boxes meaningless.
Of course, since the gold sellers are pretty much in control, the former happens instead of the latter.
Though, more realistically, what might've happened was that those in possession of the gold, instead of selling it for prices below 200k, they used the gold to get the 1,000,000 in the boxes, used that money to buy the gold that was below 200k and repeat until the prices reach the 200k mark.
And in fact, I don't quite see the point behind throwing all that coin at players. It makes very little sense, as anyone would prefer some rep, exp, spirit or some rare drop instead of coins. After all, rep is always useful, as is exp and spirit, whereas the value of coin drops every second.If you disregard what I say because of who I am or because of the contents of what I said, you are a fool.
Everyone wants to be different, but when you're different you wish you were normal.0 -
This is how far i read OPs posting...Everyone wants to Lower Gold...
Gold price should be 1$. And it is (afaik) 1$.
Ingame it should be whatever someone is willing to pay.
I dont wanna pay more than 200k, so i dont pay more than 200k.
seems like i have to play some time without gold.
Greetings
Pana
(btw.... its not the fault of people selling gold for 400K, its the fault of people buying it for that price. If TARGET is paying 1$ per 2lbs of strawberries and WAL-MART is paying 75 Cents - to whom would you sell your Strawberries?)[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
PanaBella - Heavens Tear wrote: »(btw.... its not the fault of people selling gold for 400K, its the fault of people buying it for that price. If TARGET is paying 1$ per 2lbs of strawberries and WAL-MART is paying 75 Cents - to whom would you sell your Strawberries?)
I fail to this the relevance of this example. The fact of the matter is, there is no competition. once the gold is driven up, usually by people who sell a lot of gold, and the previously lower priced gold is bought up by players, BAM...every seller will now consider the new HIGHER selling price the standard and the QQ ensues. Others will lower their selling price to try to sell faster, but it wont be much lower and the buyers will swoop it up immediately. Sure you can call these people greedy and selfish, but hey They pay with real money, you pay with your time. Consideration will never be for you but for the one with the wallet.
The sooner the community of PWI realizes this, the faster the QQs will die down b:byeb:bye you were all swell peoples0 -
PanaBella - Heavens Tear wrote: »(btw.... its not the fault of people selling gold for 400K, its the fault of people buying it for that price. If TARGET is paying 1$ per 2lbs of strawberries and WAL-MART is paying 75 Cents - to whom would you sell your Strawberries?)
Yes, but we kinda have to buy it at that price, so it's not really our fault.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
9x Demon Cleric0 -
The only real way to drive up the price of gold is to buy up all the lower-priced gold. The people interested in selling gold do not have the capacity to do that to any large degree because, go figure, they are primarily interested in selling gold, not buying it. It's the people who are interested in buying gold who are mostly responsible for driving up the price.HolyInferno - Sanctuary wrote: »I fail to this the relevance of this example. The fact of the matter is, there is no competition. once the gold is driven up, usually by people who sell a lot of gold, and the previously lower priced gold is bought up by players,
Coin sellers can do the exact same thing in reverse. They can buy out all the high priced-coin offers to lower the price, and BAM... every seller will now consider the new LOWER selling price of coin to be the standard.BAM...every seller will now consider the new HIGHER selling price the standard and the QQ ensues. Others will lower their selling price to try to sell faster, but it wont be much lower and the buyers will swoop it up immediately.
See, that's the problem with all these conspiracy theories that gold sellers are manipulating the market to increase the price of gold. Coin sellers can manipulate the market in exactly the same way. I occasionally do exactly this to lower the price of gold. If there's a spurious offer to buy a few gold which is significantly higher than other offers, I'll buy it out just to remove it from the list, so that other coin sellers aren't tempted to place an offer for higher.
No you don't have to buy it at that price. The gold buying system for people selling coin is exactly the same as the coin buying system for people interested in selling gold. They're perfectly symmetrical and anything a gold seller can do, a coin seller can do in reverse. Anything a gold buyer does, a coin buyer can do in reverse. If you're limiting yourself to buying gold at the offered prices, then it's your own fault. You can place offers to sell coin, just like the gold seller you bought from placed an offer to buy coin.DeathBanana - Heavens Tear wrote: »Yes, but we kinda have to buy it at that price, so it's not really our fault.0 -
Another persistent myth is that high gold prices benefit CS users, they don't. Only a minority of them will benefit. Say charms are a part of your expenses, maybe you would use one every week. Let's say you would spend $10 a month on these alone, which would be 2 and a half charms, and that you were content to grind the missing 6 gold a month (really, not a lot) now where would you stand with these prices? People who may be happy at seeing millions on their acount may not realize higher gold prices also mean big price hikes on a lot of stuff. And to top it off, most things you can get ingame have gone down in price (shards, TT mats, etc.) which means it will be harder (longer, more boring) to get everything you need. Sure, "apo stuff is better" but unless you're a forum bragger that can get everything they'll need for a week in 20 min, chances are this means you'll be doing a lot of farming. Hey, you don't even need a mount, just make a female toon and hitch a ride whenever you need to go somewhere...
The quality of your gameplay is being affected wether you realize this or not. The only people benefiting from high gold prices are those already ingame millionaires or the ones that don't mind spending hundreds of dollars, many of whom are likely to move on in a few weeks anyway, whenever another MMO catches their fancy. Do you think all of them put together amount to 5% of the player base? Now, if you charge $30 a month (this is twice an average p2p subscription) chances are you can't get the cool mounts and are still strugling to keep up, you definitively aren't better off with the status quo even if 10-15 mil are nice to look at on your safe...
Wake up people, casual players are being driven away from the game and all those lowbies that "don't mind" are likely to leave when they start struggling at 60+ and all for the benefit of who? a few high levels? And please those of you who think players control gold prices go back and read the posts (mine included) on that. Argue your point and don't just parrot what you believe.0 -
Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »Flawed reasoning, as you are only looking at the side of resellers. Cheap gold leads to people using coin to buy that gold instead of buying it with zen, which results in losses for PWE. Also, instead of reselling gold at some price, they would just not sell it all and use it for their own purpose. Really, I doubt that majority of the cash shoppers are cash shopping as a means of acquiring in-game coin.
For ppl that want to use coins to buy the gold someone has to buy it from PWE anyway. The lack of supply will not allow the gold to be too cheap. And resellers don't sell gold just for the fun of it, they buy zen, consume some of it in CS for themselves and sell the rest cause they need the money. Just an example, you don't go farm the money if you suddenly see some good weapon in AH that you really want, there's almost instant way to get the coin you need by charging zen and selling the gold. Some people need more money and some less, those who only use gold for themselves couldn't care less about the exchange rates coins/gold (as long as gold/$ is the same).
I'm also not saying that cheap gold is better than expensive in relation to PWE zen sales, both "models" have its pros and cons, but only PWE can see the real difference, we here can only guess.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
The players DO control the prices. PWE has nothing to do with it. You don't HAVE to buy things during sales. You don't HAVE to sell for higher just because there is more demand.Main characters
Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
Sage Barbarian Malego - 910 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
Coin sellers can do the exact same thing in reverse. They can buy out all the high priced-coin offers to lower the price, and BAM... every seller will now consider the new LOWER selling price of coin to be the standard.
Bull... and what all people trading gold are impaired with ADD? This would only encourage people to list higher prices... And btw, spiking prices doesn't really affect market trends, it just allows a few "smart" players to benefit from fomenting uncertainty and attacking price stability... It's a good thing we don't have a credit system or we'd have people like you selling subprimes...0 -
For ppl that want to use coins to buy the gold someone has to buy it from PWE anyway. The lack of supply will not allow the gold to be too cheap. And resellers don't sell gold just for the fun of it, they buy zen, consume some of it in CS for themselves and sell the rest cause they need the money. Just an example, you don't go farm the money if you suddenly see some good weapon in AH that you really want, there's almost instant way to get the coin you need by charging zen and selling the gold. Some people need more money and some less, those who only use gold for themselves couldn't care less about the exchange rates coins/gold (as long as gold/$ is the same).
I'm also not saying that cheap gold is better than expensive in relation to PWE zen sales, both "models" have its pros and cons, but only PWE can see the real difference, we here can only guess.
Supply of gold it's not proportional to demand, while these two factors may be affected by very much the same events (quite literally) they are not so on the same proportion. Simple supply and demand laws can't work in a straightforward manner on PW, since as ideal as the system may seem, there are too many, sometimes contradicting, factors. Example; a sale encourages both charging zen and demand for gold, however the gold supply may actually diminish as less people are selling gold because they're spending gold directly on the boutique. Sure, past a certain point gold prices will rise enough it will become more atractive to sell it for profit rather than directly benefiting from the sale, but already the market has become affected. Also, people seem to miss the point that the gold system depends on the interaction of an open system (everyone's wallets) and a closed one (ingame economy) ever heard of thermodynamics?
edit; sry for double post0 -
Supply of gold it's not proportional to demand, while these two factors may be affected by very much the same events (quite literally) they are not so on the same proportion...
I never said they were same... but what does it change, straightforward or not, demand/supply laws still work. The situation when supply or demand is plain zero is possible only in theory, assuming everyone use their gold or coins with 100% efficiency (which isn't true in the 1st place).
Speaking of open and close systems, in-game isn't that close, some coins will still leak from it, more or less (god bless Chinese devs for the Crazy Stone as being the most well known way) [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
I never said they were same... but what does it change, straightforward or not, demand/supply laws still work. The situation when supply or demand is plain zero is possible only in theory, assuming everyone use their gold or coins with 100% efficiency (which isn't true in the 1st place).
Speaking of open and close systems, in-game isn't that close, some coins will still leak from it, more or less (god bless Chinese devs for the Crazy Stone as being the most well known way)
The system is closed because those coins are exchanged for someting else ingame (they don't just disapear) so their intrinsic value is preserved. And yes, supply and demand apply but subject to distortions and influences ouside of the player's control, either individually or as a whole. PW has a regulated economy and it's been failures on the regulator's side that have created high gold prices... Take irl economy as an example, Americans were spending at well over their capacity (by acumulating debt) which really is what you need for a healthy economy. Who failed? Overseers of the economic system, speculators, financial institutions... of these factors i've mentioned, the devs are responsible for two in our economy and should have oversight over the third along with GMs. Gold prices aren't just affected by supply/demand (both of which PW influences through sales/events) but by the scarcity of key goods in our economy (which has been tampered with) the cost of labor (crafting/grinding/farming) the availability of coin, etc.
Current conditions stand to benefit only people charging massive amounts of zen (hundreds of dollars) or people with already considerably fortunes (200mil+)... and maybe their friends and a few speculators. The rest of us (that is the remaining 90% of the playerbase, both CS users and free players) have to either grind 2-3 times longer or charge 2-3 times as much to keep up. When some of the people that may be charging $50 a month realize they have to spend more of their time doing dull, boring stuff i think you have a situation where the high gold prices benefit no one, regardless of apparent short term benefits.
We'll only see prices at around 200-300k for a week or two if we are lucky.0 -
Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »The players DO control the prices. PWE has nothing to do with it. You don't HAVE to buy things during sales. You don't HAVE to sell for higher just because there is more demand.
Sales are meant to make certain items available for cheaper. Even if you don't buy the sale items, there will always be people that want to take advantage of the sale and profit from resale of sale items. In this way, there is a greater demand for gold, so gold prices become higher. I'm trying to get at the point that players will naturally buy things during sales. Even if they do control the prices directly in this manner, it's PWE's fault for encouraging this to occur. Let's try to focus on an issue that may be able to be fixed (PWE's encouragement of resale behavior) than an issue that you can't fix (telling other players how to play the game and to make them stop reselling items).
The next point I would like to make is that some items may be necessary during sales no matter how much you try to resist it. Gold charms would be an example of something that may be quite necessary. The presence of sales would greatly impact players who depend on regular boutique items.0
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