Gm Make New Plan to Lower Gold Prices please.
Comments
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Disappear - Lost City wrote: »100k imo
I think there should be a cap on how much you can sell gold for.
you can't keep a business running if your consumers are forced into doing something they can't afford.
I also think that they should just freeze gold selling/trading when it goes past 400k
I mean, it does sound stupid, but there will be less complaints, and gold prices won't effect overall gameplay.
When gold prices are high more people buy Zen in order to exchange for a bigger amount of coins. The more Zen people buy the more PWE gain. If PWE makes money with ZEN this game will continue to be free!0 -
don't see why you guys are complaining about 400k, it cost 650k on average in my server. I'd gladly take your prices.
@disappear:
there is a cap of how much you can sell it for. 999,900 coins to be exact. you also cannot sell more than 200,000,000 coins worth at one time.0 -
Those 198 gold aren't converted into coin, so don't cause inflation (don't cause the total amount of in-game coin to increase). As Brael has pointed out, those 198 gold which become luck tokens make a lot of previously-expensive stuff dirt-cheap (e.g. apoc pages, do-all cards, etc). So they're having a deflationary effect (not inflationary) on the prices of those items and related items (e.g. herc/phoenix food).Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »If people are turning those tokens into 10m coins in any quntity - then I'd be more worried about the inflation the OTHER 198 gold that have gone into the system will be causing, than the 2 that managed to make best tokens.
Their effect on prices of cash shop stuff is muted at the moment because their exchange rate for most of those items is pretty ridiculous (the wardrobe stone and cupboard stone are ok, but GAs and training esoterica are the equivalent of like 200k each).
If the price of gold were to double, then we'd end up in another situation like Jolly Jones, where some CS stuff was much cheaper to get through the event than directly via coin. Causing people to stockpile those items via the event instead of buying directly with gold, driving up gold prices further.
The price of gold hinges on the total amount of coin in the game (i.e. the sum of everyone's bank account). You're proposing a mechanism which would alter the rate at which new coin is generated. So it would change the system, but it would take quite some time to have a noticeable impact. (Basically, enough time for the 4x drop rate to accumulate to where it started to significantly alter the amount of coin in-game.) Short-term, people would be mollified because they're seeing an instantaneous increase in their coin income while grinding. But long-term it will just make the total amount of in-game coin increase faster, leading to faster inflation and higher gold prices.Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »If you multiplied all coin drops and DQ values by 4? That'd fix the current system, yes... not for any future states of the gold market though, I'd wager.
OTOH, it would shift the ratio of new coin generation probably back in favor of grinding. i.e. Increasing the drop rate of coin by 4x would be like changing the best luck tokens so they're worth only 1.25 million each (1/4th their current value).
Technically, aside from the inflationary effect of the additional coin added to the system, the average value of things you can buy from the cash shop has not changed. If you buy 10 million worth of goods from the cash shop, you can still sell them for 10 million. Just like back when gold was 100k.All that being said... we're having problems because we have two currencies, not one, and one (arguably the more valuable one) has inflated in the cost of the other. Thus you have headaches like this... where you can't buy things at a non-laughable exchange rate. The rich do get richer, and the poor could stay where they were, except now they get shafted trying to buy just basic CS needs on coin... so in a sense, they get poorer.
What's changed is the relative values of things in the cash shop. The Anniversary packs are hugely popular, so their worth in coin is disproportionately high. That is, their price in gold is low for the value that people see in them. If they had been priced at 2 gold instead of 1 gold, then gold prices (on HT) would have settled at around 200k instead of 400k. Unfortunately, since their price in gold is fixed relative to the other CS items, the underpricing of the packs by half has led to the other CS item prices to effectively double in compensation.
Well, I wouldn't say it was built on a 100k exchange rate. But I do agree the rise in price recently is too quick for the players and economy to absorb easily.The simple fact is that PWE (the higher-ups at PWE, that is... NOT the GMs, they're not to blame) has grossly mishandled this economy. It was built on a system of a 100k exchange rate - you can't quadruple that in the space of two months and expect the economy to magically deal.
Funny. I'm profiting from this by taking advantage of free-market principles to figure out where pricing disparities exist (i.e. certain items are underpriced), and taking advantage of them to buy low and sell high. If my faith in the free market is working, and your faith in whatever else is not, then might I suggest that my belief in the free market is probably more likely to be correct than your belief in whatever else?To be quite frank (rant time here), I'm really tired of the profiteers coming into these discussions and telling us all to wait for the free market fairy to come along and fix all our problems. It's not going to happen. What's hilarious is how some of these people seem to have such faith in the free market that it's almost like Ayn Rand is participating in the discussion.
I will admit this event leaves a bad taste in my mouth. With the Jolly Jones event, I felt justified in marking up items I sold because I was absorbing the risk of getting random items from opening the packs. If someone wanted a beautiful citrine, they could buy it from me at a markup. That markup helped pay for the loss I ate getting molds and other less valuable items from the packs.
But in this event, since nearly everything can be gotten from luck tokens, there is no risk to absorb. So I am not providing any beneficial service as a middleman. Consequently I am selling the luck tokens and their items at a loss (i.e. below my cost), and gambling on the rare prizes from the packs to make this whole endeavor profitable. I am not a gambling man. I didn't make my money by buying lottery tickets or speculating as some people like to think. I made it by clearly identifying items and areas which were underpriced by those selling, offering those people more than they were otherwise receiving, then moving the items to a better location and selling the items for less than the people buying there were previously paying. So the gambling nature of this event and the fact that I'm selling everything at a loss bothers me.
Judging from the price of tokens (about 14k on HT, which corresponds to a 210k price of gold; gold is selling for around 400k), pretty much every "profiteer" as you call them is doing the same thing. They're selling you the tokens at almost half the price it would cost you if you bought from the cash shop yourself. If I were like you and didn't believe in the free market, I suppose I would come to these forums and make a post about "greedy buyers" demanding that I price my tokens at half the price I paid for them.
I wouldn't say the whole free market aspect is a sham. As it relates to the relative price of individual goods (i.e. dull claws vs. beautiful citrines), it works beautifully. But as relates to the price of gold, I agree with you. PWI's management decisions have a huge impact on gold prices.because the whole free market aspect is a sham. Why? Because we have a government (PWE) who has significant, if not near-total, power over every aspect of it. They can change the amount of coin available in the system... and they have. They can pump rare (and even common) items into the economy for players to fight over... and they have. They can blatantly manufacture new commodities which artificially raise the price of gold... and they have (*coughironhammercough*).
Unless it's a necessity of life (food, water, clothing, shelter), any time people are willing to pay a higher price for an item, they're responsible for driving up the price of that item. What the recent events did was add an item which was so grossly under-priced that nearly everyone gave in to the temptation to buy it. That's what PWE is responsible for.Just because the players are willing to pay these higher prices doesn't mean they're responsible. People will continue buying gold no matter what price it is. But PWE has total, if indirect, influence over that price.
(As an example of the opposite effect, the fox mount was #1 on the list of mounts people wanted according to a poll here. But at 50 gold and current gold prices, it is so overpriced that few people are buying it. And consequently it did not drive up the price of gold.)
Agreed.It was by their sales and actions that the price of gold rose. They're the ones who need to take action so it goes down again. That's the bottom line.0 -
ah gold matters uh ? i remember when gold was 115k each around june i think, now its like 380k-400k maybe in 3 months it will be 600-800k.
No game can be perfect for everyone playing it b:chuckle
have a nice day everybody0 -
The system is not closed at all because new coin is constantly created in the game(when you loot, when you sell to NPC and get coin), and coin is constantly destroyed too (when you buy something from NPC, update your skills etc, that coin is gone out of the game circuit).
Failures? What failures? Unlike the players, PWE knows very well what they are doing. They are monitoring everything thats happening in this game micro-economy. They have means to control things and they can use them if needed.
You guys seem to forget one major element: PWE's system is designed so they make money, not so that players can play for free.
Lets leave real economy out of this ok? We dont want to bring real life politics and economic debates in this already over-debated thread.
Thats not true.
Most players are not affected by these prices.
The only players who are affected by these prices are the ones that got used to playing for free, and now they have to grind 3 times as much to do so.
Try to understand, you are NOT playing for free the moment you buy gold, because someone PAID REAL MONEY for that gold.
Also try to understand this game was not designed for the purpose of being free to play, PWE has to make money from it, or it will close.
The fact you were able to play free without a huge effort was nice, but that could not possibly last.
In order for such a situation to last you would need a constant supply of rich new players willing to buy gold and sell it for game coin that an average player can make in an hour or less....sorry but if you thought that was an acceptable situation that could last, its time to grow up.
OK, the systems analogy was based on the simplest model you could picture it as; perfect world (closed) real world (open) players exploit world's resources (we're all speed demons) and can summon resources from an outside source (zen, not gold) simple enough? Yes, it's certainly a flawed model and subject to interpretation but please address the point the model was meant to illustrate instead of simply lashing at it. Closed models do not exist in the real world and are only meant as a theoretical tool.
Sale after sale after sale... and i'm not even getting into rules changes here. This is the failure PWi has made in managing the economy. Free players do bring something to the table in this equation and are not just "freeloaders" so they are a part of PWI's bussiness model. The delicate balance in which the MTR system works depends on cash shoppers not receiving overwhelming advantages, the system has now become so broken even people consistently charging relatively moderate amounts of zen ($30 a month) are feeling the effects of breakdown. This isn't freeplayers vs cash shoppers, it's about the game becoming much more expensive to play. It's either grind more or charge more for most of us dude, it's a price hike.
I do agree on leaving politics out of it. You're right, i shouldn't have brought up irl economy as an example.
I disagree on the game needing a "constant supply of rich new players" since imo that model will lead to this game eventually shutting down. MMOs basic idea is that of a persistent world, regular players are one of the core aspects to it. It is a constant base of repeat customers that allows a steady income, a thing sane corporations value over prioritizing a quarter's earnings. And finally don't make this personal man, it is partly because i've charged zen that i care about ingame rewards losing value.0 -
I think a "i love you guys" is needed right about now.
So......group hug!!?
My name is AdvanceZero and I am addicted to PWI!! b:victoryb:laugh
Anyways..right now its cheaper to buy your boutique items with coin then to buy gold to buy boutique items. I wonder if someone has enough time to gather enough data to see what most boutique items are selling for.
A Coin vs Gold chart would be nice to.Retired
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Yes and no. They do bring something to the table because they buy the gold from the AH, gold that otherwise would not have been bought from the cash shop. But you have to keep in mind that there are major coin makers in this game (large guilds, high level players that spend a lot of time playing, etc), and these players buy a lot more gold than the casual players, so while casual players do bring something to the table, they dont bring much at all unfortunately, so its normal they are not on top of PWE's priorities.Free players do bring something to the table in this equation and are not just "freeloaders" so they are a part of PWI's bussiness model.
I am one of the low zhen spenders ($10-15 a month) and i have not been affected by the price change. Only the casual and semi-casual players that were playing for free selling their game coin for gold are affected. Its unfortunate for them and i understand their frustration, but it couldnt last.The delicate balance in which the MTR system works depends on cash shoppers not receiving overwhelming advantages, the system has now become so broken even people consistently charging relatively moderate amounts of zen ($30 a month) are feeling the effects of breakdown. This isn't freeplayers vs cash shoppers, it's about the game becoming much more expensive to play. It's either grind more or charge more for most of us dude, it's a price hike.
I mean honestly if the gold was selling for 100k, i would be very happy because i wouldnt have to spend a penny on this game, i could get everything for my modest game needs for free...but unfortunately thats not how things work anymore.
What you say here would be perfectly true if this was a pay to play game. For a cash shop game things are a bit different. Cash shop owners care mainly about customers, and customers are the players that spend a lot in the cash shop, and the ones that make a lot of game coin to buy the gold off the AH (which in turn means more profit for the owners).MMOs basic idea is that of a persistent world, regular players are one of the core aspects to it. It is a constant base of repeat customers that allows a steady income, a thing sane corporations value over prioritizing a quarter's earnings. And finally don't make this personal man, it is partly because i've charged zen that i care about ingame rewards losing value.
The casual middle range players are less important from a business point of view and thats the problem with all cash shop games i think.
I didnt take it personal at all, sorry if it seemed otherwise, i actually enjoy the exchange of opinions here because it stays civil, and thats rare on game forums, very good community
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Falls - Sanctuary wrote: »This thread is a problem, because it drowns out any rational complaints about the price of Gold with a bunch of; "GMs please lower the prices Q_Q".
Even if you replace "GMs" with "PWE Developers", they don't control what people will do with their money and time, and they don't set the exact price, but they can and do influence it by controlling the quality/value of the items in the Cash Shop versus that of the items available in the game itself (F2P). The gap in quality grows with every update, which increases the gap in enjoyment for many of us.
I understand it from a business stand point, and see it a lot these days. Entertainment products and other luxuries have become more expensive to enjoy, but I just don't think that in this instance "the price is right", especially when considering the alternatives.
*I voted 100K by the way xD, because when prices were that low was the only time that coin actually served a purpose for the majority of players in game, outside of being the currency that I needed to convert my Gold/Grinding into to use in trades.
To which you respond:[1]And to all the people that want this thread to die, stop BUMPING it. [2]"Rational" to you apparently meaning blind faith in "players set gold prices" yea, i really see your point about your feeling threatened that someone might discuss your dogma. I'm perfectly aware this may have become a nuissance which is the reason i've stayed away from threads like "gold prices (again)" even tho people continue to use their [3]"players set gold prices" discourse in there as a way to shut down anyone with legitimate complaints over the gold price situation. [4]I don't buy it, i've presented rational arguments and aside from smart answers from a few people, [5]i've received mostly trolling and comments from simpletons that can't bother reading a post before responding to it.
[6]If the truth threatens you out of a feeling of "control" or "security" grow up. As deluded as you may be about the situation you know the anwer is not in pleading with or organizing the player base. No, we don't "deserve" this because we've been "greedy" it's not about morality. PWI can turn the economy around, they either don't realize how or don't care to- You, on the other hand, are powerless. Now bury the uncomfortable truth...
1. I don't want it to die, I never said that. I said it was a problem. The problem being it is not intelligent enough IMO.
2. I believe you are making a big [incorrect] assumption as to my position(?). Please point out were I say that because players set the actual prices themselves that PWE has no influence over said prices, or that it makes the price fair. In fact, to quote myself in reference to Dev's control of gold prices: "...they can and do influence it by controlling the quality/value of the items in the Cash Shop versus that of the items available in the game itself..." and also; "I just don't think that in this instance "the price is right", especially when considering the alternatives".
3. To elaborate on my original post, this was exactly the point I was making. This is why I think this thread is a problem. From the very get go we have supporters of the current gold prices (or those who don't care), arguing against Straw Men, and using faulty logic to imply that because players set the prices themselves that somehow absolves the GMs/Devs of all responsibility for them.
4. Maybe you have. But IMO, the thread as a whole has not presented such clear arguments.
5. The ironing is delicious. ~Bart Simpson
6. Just insulting and presupposing, this serves no purpose in a serious discussion.0 -
Jer - Dreamweaver wrote: »When the Peoples Economy gets out of Control, Doesn't the Government fix it? Government(GM as example)
That is way different as we are talking about real lives here and putting ppl out of work.They learned this from the great depression of 30s.Governments only bail those out who are really depends on which industry banks and auto manufactures,Think how many would of been out of work and lost their homes savings if governmant didn't react this.
It is still the consumers that drive the economy though.
It is really up to the players to lower the price of gold or for those to stop buying it for awhile.It will then go down soon enough.Looking for a decent casual understanding Faction.0 -
Falls - Sanctuary wrote: »To which you respond:
1. I don't want it to die, I never said that. I said it was a problem. The problem being it is not intelligent enough IMO.
2. I believe you are making a big [incorrect] assumption as to my position(?). Please point out were I say that because players set the actual prices themselves that PWE has no influence over said prices, or that it makes the price fair. In fact, to quote myself in reference to Dev's control of gold prices: "...they can and do influence it by controlling the quality/value of the items in the Cash Shop versus that of the items available in the game itself..." and also; "I just don't think that in this instance "the price is right", especially when considering the alternatives".
3. To elaborate on my original post, this was exactly the point I was making. This is why I think this thread is a problem. From the very get go we have supporters of the current gold prices (or those who don't care), arguing against Straw Men, and using faulty logic to imply that because players set the prices themselves that somehow absolves the GMs/Devs of all responsibility for them.
4. Maybe you have. But IMO, the thread as a whole has not presented such clear arguments.
5. The ironing is delicious. ~Bart Simpson
6. Just insulting and presupposing, this serves no purpose in a serious discussion.
Yea, well i do apologize, i did target you on a post that was meant as a reply to various posters.
1. I thought acussing the thread of being troublesome was siding with people who were in fact demanding it's being closed, once again, my apologies.
2. Baseless acusation on my part, i thought ,skim reading through it, you had meant so, sorry.
3. I'm no straw man, and i've certainly made serious and thought out points to support my argument. I must also add that said post remains unchallenged. Other than that i agree with you.
4. It's had it's ups and downs, i hardly expect forum discussions to follow the debate model of the Cambridge Union Society.
5. Touche.
6. Once again, not directed at you in particular. I stand by my words in this, no insults or presumptions IMO.0 -
how is this thread still alive? all others like it got locked, regardless of the content...[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Hell hath no fury like Alexeno trying to prove his point" -Mizuoni0 -
the thing about pw's free economy is that the rich people will ultimately rule the economy out of their greed. The malaysia server's gold price is currently 950k with about 100k increase for each of these types of boxes. So if pwi continues with these type of lottery boxes, the gold price will increase nonstop because players' greed will make them put gold prices higher. Unless EVERYONE boycotts (which won't happen) buying gold from auction, gold price will remain high.
At first, the gold prices may drop once the boxes are removed but once a trend occurs where a box is added at a monthly basis, the gold price will just remain high. Players can't afford to buy gold or cash mall items with ingame money, they'll spend more real money to buy zen and that means more profit to the company. In the end, the company benefits which is why they won't put any caps on the gold price or do anything to decrease it. Ultimately, players brought it on themselves :x
i'm speaking on behalf of my experience with the other server which has experienced this about a year ago. 400k per gold back then with the first box, now 950k0 -
Yes and no. They do bring something to the table because they buy the gold from the AH, gold that otherwise would not have been bought from the cash shop. But you have to keep in mind that there are major coin makers in this game (large guilds, high level players that spend a lot of time playing, etc), and these players buy a lot more gold than the casual players, so while casual players do bring something to the table, they dont bring much at all unfortunately, so its normal they are not on top of PWE's priorities.
I am one of the low zhen spenders ($10-15 a month) and i have not been affected by the price change. Only the casual and semi-casual players that were playing for free selling their game coin for gold are affected. Its unfortunate for them and i understand their frustration, but it couldnt last.
I mean honestly if the gold was selling for 100k, i would be very happy because i wouldnt have to spend a penny on this game, i could get everything for my modest game needs for free...but unfortunately thats not how things work anymore.
What you say here would be perfectly true if this was a pay to play game. For a cash shop game things are a bit different. Cash shop owners care mainly about customers, and customers are the players that spend a lot in the cash shop, and the ones that make a lot of game coin to buy the gold off the AH (which in turn means more profit for the owners).
The casual middle range players are less important from a business point of view and thats the problem with all cash shop games i think.
I didnt take it personal at all, sorry if it seemed otherwise, i actually enjoy the exchange of opinions here because it stays civil, and thats rare on game forums, very good community
Free players bring much more to the game than just a demand for AH gold. Aside from the fact that they are the best target audience from which potential boutique sales can be expected, they allow PW to have a larger comunity than it would otherwise have, and provide people paying with a much better experience as they become squad mates, guildies, pvp rivals, even love interests. This may not be your case, but some people do charge a bit of extra zen to reciprocate favors/help/gifts from their non paying friends. Please, stop looking down on what is a valuable and important a part of the comunity.
Seems you're in a bit of a contradiction there. You claim to not have been affected while later admitting you could play for free were gold prices set lower...
We are all customers regarless of any ToS minutiae, i've already expressed my point of view in regards a business model that ignores the larger part of it's consumer base.
As for your last comment, yes there are some good people in this comunity, their numbers continue to shrink tho...0 -
You left out the option its should be worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Or i dont care let market forces work ther magic and quit moaning about it in forums ever day.
Since niether of those option are there i can not vote. I beleive gold shoudnt be worth any particular amount but whatever its being sold for is the correct amount since there peopel paying that price. If they paying that priced then the price is the right price.0 -
NecroKitty - Harshlands wrote: »You left out the option its should be worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Or i don't care let market forces work their magic and quit moaning about it in forums ever day.
Except of course for the fact that the artificial in game economies are affected heavily by people's decisions outside of the game (Devs).NecroKitty - Harshlands wrote: »Since neither of those option are there i can not vote. I believe gold should not be worth any particular amount but whatever its being sold for is the correct amount since there people paying that price. If they paying that priced then the price is the right price.
I see this repeated often in this thread. You are either assigning a personal moral valuation of rightness/correctness (Which not everyone will agree with) to the price of gold, or this is just circular logic (Gold is that price because it is that price). To which I say:
But really, I think your post title says it all; you just want us to shut up xD.0 -
IF the DEvs would think about gold the way that we players do they would ADD a freaking NPC who sells gold for let's say 110k each that will fix all this **** from today and forever, sellers then would be limited to offer gold for no more than that price. But that's never gonna happen cuz it would kill the players greed and no player greed equals no cash for the game makers.0
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/me goes and buys $400.00 worth of zen and begins to slowly jack the gold price up on Sanctuary by small increments while laughing my **** off at all the people buying from me.
And before any of you mental midgets say anything about spending $400.00 on a game, I spend more than that a month just on pay per view movies that I never actually watch just because I 'may' want to watch them.
It's nice living in Hawaii and selling really cheap stuff to really dumb tourists for a really huge markup ($0.10 shell necklace [my cost ea] sells for $10.00 [your cost ea.]).
Have a nice day cupcakes.
~S0 -
Completely off topic: 200th post, get!
EDIT: Missed b:angry[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
9x Demon Cleric0 -
DeathBanana - Heavens Tear wrote: »Completely off topic: 200th post, get!
EDIT: Missed b:angry
At least you started the 21st page? b:surrender>_< I'm a wizard in disguise... you know like the old cartoon... except with less robots and more fire/ice/rocks....0 -
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
9x Demon Cleric0 -
Yes and no. They do bring something to the table because they buy the gold from the AH, gold that otherwise would not have been bought from the cash shop. But you have to keep in mind that there are major coin makers in this game (large guilds, high level players that spend a lot of time playing, etc), and these players buy a lot more gold than the casual players, so while casual players do bring something to the table, they dont bring much at all unfortunately, so its normal they are not on top of PWE's priorities.
it is unfortunate, because every player started out as being a casual player. no one comes into a game advertised as f2p, and just decides to spend hundreds of dollars to feel uber awesome. they decide that they like the game, and the spend something if the game becomes worth playing to them. alienating such players is what drives potential away. the funny thing is that a sizeable number of competitive high level players have left due to the anniv packs - not low to mid level, casual players.Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
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I'm really not aiming at being hostile towards you man, i believe you've been serious in defending your point of view.You misunderstood me completely if you thought i was looking down on free players.
Whats the point of a debate if we dont even read the posts properly b:surrenderYes and no. They do bring something to the table because they buy the gold from the AH, gold that otherwise would not have been bought from the cash shop. But you have to keep in mind that there are major coin makers in this game (large guilds, high level players that spend a lot of time playing, etc), and these players buy a lot more gold than the casual players, so while casual players do bring something to the table, they dont bring much at all unfortunately, so its normal they are not on top of PWE's priorities.
While i understand we are discussing economics, you should grant me this doesn't come off as a fair portrayal of non CS users.0
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