Why are Venos without Hercs considered useless?

TheGoliath - Heavens Tear wrote: »

u also have to understand that the herc is not needed but it became like a fashion or a TT, after 60 (unless u have a mold) if u don't have a TT as weapon u are fail (generally speaking), same goes with herc after a while

and "sometimes" doesn't seem right, remember that without a pet u wouldn't be able to use heavy/light build, so if a pet is required to make u keep ur gear then this last thing will never be > pets

<_<

That made me lol

Think about it more.

If your talking plain ol' heavy then you have a prob. I can sit in the middle of a melee mob and walk away from the computer for 10 mins. Mag mobs are a pain but with my health + health from armor I'm set. I solo things my Kilk would have trouble with. Come on now.

As for the light and the light/heavy, they look pretty good from where I'm standing. If they are in foxform and know what they are doing, they can survive without one.


My pet is my side-kick not my hero

A veno without a herc is not useless and saying otherwise is ignorance.

Yes, a herc makes TTs go faster due to no damage reduction. Cub is the next best thing to herc and can do many of the same things. Again, herc just makes things easier.

AS for a herc "needed" to tank FBs, that's just flat out bull. If you really want to take a time out and look at the grand scheme of things, barb and cleric are more favorable. Herc cannot tank FB69 bosses. A veno cannot tank Ape in Act 2 of TT until much higher level; same for Act 1's Soul Banisher and Drummer.

A veno is for purging, deflect and luring mainly. Blademasters are supposed to be the secondary tank by traditional means. While I, as a cleric, can appreciate not needing to heal a barb and saving my charm, will never claim a hercless veno to be useless.

TheGoliath - Heavens Tear wrote: »

u may be an exception (I dunno ur build) since u claim to use axes... but still u most probably kill everything (alone) slower than most barbs and bms so where's the point b:surrender

Against ? mobs a heavy veno is going to have major problems holding agro against their pet, due to the damage reduction rules (that pets dont suffer)

After reading this complete thread, i noticed that both groups, the pro-hercs and the contra-hercs, talking around a point they seem to not yet have realized by themselfs.

To say it straight: Yes, the Herc IS the best pet for it's purpose, and yes, it sucks (kind of) and should be removed from game!

Why?
The Herc speed things up, dramatically, that's correct. But have you ever thought abought the consequences this means? About the huge impact on gameplay?
I mean, the topic says it: a whole class is reduced to a single "item"...

Yes, a squad can do instances a lot faster, making them able to do it more often. But is that really a good thing?
Yes, Venos are able to solo TT squad mode. But is that a good thing?
Yes, you can kill bosses way faster with less effort.

But there is a reason why the things are supposed to be a hard task:
If you not have figured it out by yourself, this reason is called BALANCE.

Hercs have completely ruined the balance of this game!

Examples:
- TT Gear is one of the best at it's lvl, it's something that should be ACHIEVED, through teamwork, not just bought from farm-Venos.
- Herc Venos are wanted because the squad can't find a REAL tank? Well, maybe that's because the players think playing one is not worth it anymore?

Answers to some statements in this thread:
"Hercless Venos are useless"
From other Venos: You just got used to a major imbalance in the game
From none Venos: You are obviously not much into the mechanics of this class...
"Hercless Venos can not do RB" - that's just not true, end of story
"You can substitute a Herc with other pets" - It hurts to say, but that's just not true either, and from something worth 200 bucks I expect that
Barbs saying "Hercs in squad keep my repair bills low" - aahm, major fail...? What have you expected when rolling a barb? It's your job in squad, if you don't like to be a tank, with ALL consequences, than please just play an other class! Everyone has to deal with it, why do you think you shouldn't?

I am playing for almost a year now, and the time the legendary pets were released and I got infos on them, I saw the situation coming we are in now.

I am 7x on my Veno, I don't have a Herc nor a Nix, but i still have to face a situation i can't handle with my current pets. I have come this far with a bag of 4. I recently got a super cage and now i can even more specifiy the roles of each pet.

Pro-Hercs now will say "Yeah, but a Herc can do all that what you need 3 different pets for". That's right, I don't say anything against that.

But again, what I want to point out is the imbalance it caused.
- No more Barbs wanted for "standard" things? Herc Venos can be found more easy and Barbs obviously don't want to push their repair bills *facepalm*. And to say it the hard way: what else are they good for? DPS? Debuffing? Pulling?
- Hercs reflect does more damage that a real DD. So why call in a BM, get one more Herc! We don't need BMs anymore!
- Need TT gear? Why bring people togehter? Why do complexe "Elite Instances"? Just buy from one of the hundreds of catshops...

So, in conclusion for the pro-Herc faction:
If you are Veno: It is sad to see that so many of us got used to the fat yellow "Easy" button
If you are other class: Thanks for the support of erasing the need (and fun) of diversity in the game

And a special note to PWE: I understand that F2P game have to be financed some way. But sacrificing the balance, the most important aspect of a MMORPG? Something went wrong, epic fail...

I personally boycott Hercs, and i would be glad, if others Venos would realize and understand why and join me.

After reading this complete thread, i noticed that both groups, the pro-hercs and the contra-hercs, talking around a point they seem to not yet have realized by themselfs.

To say it straight: Yes, the Herc IS the best pet for it's purpose, and yes, it sucks (kind of) and should be removed from game!

Why?
The Herc speed things up, dramatically, that's correct. But have you ever thought abought the consequences this means? About the huge impact on gameplay?
I mean, the topic says it: a whole class is reduced to a single "item"...

Yes, a squad can do instances a lot faster, making them able to do it more often. But is that really a good thing?
Yes, Venos are able to solo TT squad mode. But is that a good thing?
Yes, you can kill bosses way faster with less effort.

But there is a reason why the things are supposed to be a hard task:
If you not have figured it out by yourself, this reason is called BALANCE.

Hercs have completely ruined the balance of this game!

Examples:
- TT Gear is one of the best at it's lvl, it's something that should be ACHIEVED, through teamwork, not just bought from farm-Venos.
- Herc Venos are wanted because the squad can't find a REAL tank? Well, maybe that's because the players think playing one is not worth it anymore?

Answers to some statements in this thread:
"Hercless Venos are useless"
From other Venos: You just got used to a major imbalance in the game
From none Venos: You are obviously not much into the mechanics of this class...
"Hercless Venos can not do RB" - that's just not true, end of story.
"You can substitute a Herc with other pets" - It hurts to say, but that's just not true either, and from something worth 200 bucks I expect that.
Barbs saying "Hercs in squad keep my repair bills low" - aahm, major fail...? What have you expected when rolling a barb? It's your job in squad, if you don't like to be a tank, with ALL consequences, than please just play an other class! Everyone has to deal with it, why do you think you shouldn't?
"If there was a 200$ item doubleing a Wizzy's damage, every Wizzy should have it" - Yeah, and if there was a 200$ item doubleing an Archers overall crit-rate, every Archer should have it and so on. But why are we Venos the only ones that need to spend 200$ (F2P, remember?) or lots of playtime in ONE item just to be taken serious and being able to play the game the way it should be (with other players).

I am playing for almost a year now, and the time the legendary pets were released and I got infos on them, I saw the situation coming we are in now.

I am 7x on my Veno, I don't have a Herc nor a Nix, but i still have to face a situation i can't handle with my current pets. I have come this far with a bag of 4. I recently got a super cage and now i can even more specifiy the roles of each pet.

Pro-Hercs now will say "Yeah, but a Herc can do all that what you need 3 different pets for and even more". That's right, I don't say anything against that.

But again, what I want to point out is the imbalance it caused.
- No more Barbs wanted for "standard" things? Herc Venos can be found more easy and Barbs obviously don't want to push their repair bills *facepalm*. And to say it the hard way: what else are they good for? DPS? Debuffing? Pulling? And altough a Herc can not substitute a real and good Barb for the high lvl stuff, it allready does for most of the low and mid lvls. It is less attractive for new players to be a barb if the social aspect is removed because no one needs them anymore, leading to even less good high lvl Barbs
- Hercs reflect does more damage that a real DD. So why call in a BM, get one more Herc! We don't need BMs anymore!
- Need TT gear? Why bring people togehter? Why do complexe "Elite Instances"? Just buy from one of the hundreds of catshops...

So, in conclusion for the pro-Herc faction:
If you are Veno: It is sad to see that so many of us got used to the fat yellow "Easy" button
If you are other class: Thanks for the support of erasing the need (and fun) of diversity in the game

And a special note to PWE: I understand that F2P game have to be financed some way. But sacrificing the balance, the most important aspect of a MMORPG? Something went wrong, epic fail...

Some statements in this post a sarcastic and exaggerated, but if the evolution goes on like this, I fear that in some not to far future the game won't be worth playing it anymore.

I personally boycott Hercs, and I would be glad, if others Venos would realize and understand why and join me.

i know what yall mean! i used to have this thing i called 'da wizzie depression' when i reached rb gamma lvl.... most conversations would go like this 'need 75+ wizzie for rb gamma! squad ready to go!' 'hi im 79 still need a wizzie?' are you LA?' 'no im not but i have high hp' 'even so cant use you' WTF T_T btw STILL arcane and still can complete rb =P some people just play and dont know what their chars are capable of ^^ im still learning even in my 80s.... but the thing is i have heard of a veno that can beat ur **** pet or not on sactuary... nvr wanna run into her T_T oh and yes i admit it... at times i have venos (like ****) envy especially when they talk about how much they earn *sniff* but many of them are my friends and i have a friend now who is getting a herc just because she says she gets no respect from people without one. its sad really....

Why the hell was this posted 3 times?!

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »

tschandra is insane and has no idea what theyre talking about...

Actually, I am a modder myself, have years of online game experience, and therefore i really do know what i am talking about.
If you give me a good discussion why you think i am wrong, i appreciate it. If you just want to flame around like you always do: *Plonk* <

Tschandra - Sanctuary wrote: »

The Herc speed things up, dramatically, that's correct. But have you ever thought abought the consequences this means? About the huge impact on gameplay?
I mean, the topic says it: a whole class is reduced to a single "item"...

Without the veno, how can the Herc survive? Why wouldn't you want a Herc? Isn't this game about killing things as efficiently as you can or do you like to actually struggle to get a kill?

Yes, a squad can do instances a lot faster, making them able to do it more often. But is that really a good thing?

And why isn't that a good thing?

Yes, Venos are able to solo TT squad mode. But is that a good thing?

Venos solo TT squads so everybody else can get the mats for cheap. How's that not a good thing?

Yes, you can kill bosses way faster with less effort.

But there is a reason why the things are supposed to be a hard task:

And we, as players, should find the most effective way to solve this hard task. If getting a Herc makes the task easier, then why the heck not?
If you not have figured it out by yourself, this reason is called BALANCE.

Hercs have completely ruined the balance of this game!

Examples:
- TT Gear is one of the best at it's lvl, it's something that should be ACHIEVED, through teamwork, not just bought from farm-Venos.

You can still do squads TTs with your squad if you wish. You don't have to buy from catshops.
- Herc Venos are wanted because the squad can't find a REAL tank? Well, maybe that's because the players think playing one is not worth it anymore?
There will always be needs for real tanks. A herc can never hold as good of a agro as a barb. The reason why there aren't many barbs around is because it's hard to level a barb so a lot of them quit and roll a class that's easier to level.

Answers to some statements in this thread:
"Hercless Venos are useless"
From other Venos: You just got used to a major imbalance in the game
From none Venos: You are obviously not much into the mechanics of this class...
"Hercless Venos can not do RB" - that's just not true, end of story.
"You can substitute a Herc with other pets" - It hurts to say, but that's just not true either, and from something worth 200 bucks I expect that.
Barbs saying "Hercs in squad keep my repair bills low" - aahm, major fail...? What have you expected when rolling a barb? It's your job in squad, if you don't like to be a tank, with ALL consequences, than please just play an other class! Everyone has to deal with it, why do you think you shouldn't?

If a Herc tanking can save myself the repair bill, then why not? Coins are hard to come by for a Barb already so why not let the Herc tank and we be the extra DD?
"If there was a 200$ item doubleing a Wizzy's damage, every Wizzy should have it" - Yeah, and if there was a 200$ item doubleing an Archers overall crit-rate, every Archer should have it and so on. But why are we Venos the only ones that need to spend 200$ (F2P, remember?) or lots of playtime in ONE item just to be taken serious and being able to play the game the way it should be (with other players).
Even without legendary pets, a veno can still solo a lot of this game. They are, after all, the solo class of the game.
I am playing for almost a year now, and the time the legendary pets were released and I got infos on them, I saw the situation coming we are in now.

I am 7x on my Veno, I don't have a Herc nor a Nix, but i still have to face a situation i can't handle with my current pets. I have come this far with a bag of 4. I recently got a super cage and now i can even more specifiy the roles of each pet.

Pro-Hercs now will say "Yeah, but a Herc can do all that what you need 3 different pets for and even more". That's right, I don't say anything against that.

But again, what I want to point out is the imbalance it caused.
- No more Barbs wanted for "standard" things? Herc Venos can be found more easy and Barbs obviously don't want to push their repair bills *facepalm*. And to say it the hard way: what else are they good for? DPS? Debuffing? Pulling?
Don't forget the buffs barbs provide in addition to DPS and Debuffing.
And altough a Herc can not substitute a real and good Barb for the high lvl stuff, it allready does for most of the low and mid lvls. It is less attractive for new players to be a barb if the social aspect is removed because no one needs them anymore, leading to even less good high lvl Barbs
There's more to tanking for a barb. I roll a barb for it's high survivability and his end-game PK capabilities.
- Hercs reflect does more damage that a real DD. So why call in a BM, get one more Herc! We don't need BMs anymore!
Why wouldn't you call a BM? More DD is always good isn't it?
- Need TT gear? Why bring people togehter? Why do complexe "Elite Instances"? Just buy from one of the hundreds of catshops...
So you can do TT instances with a squad AND have the option to buy from catshops? Where's the con?
So, in conclusion for the pro-Herc faction:
If you are Veno: It is sad to see that so many of us got used to the fat yellow "Easy" button
If only if the game were really that easy after I got my herc..
If you are other class: Thanks for the support of erasing the need (and fun) of diversity in the game

And a special note to PWE: I understand that F2P game have to be financed some way. But sacrificing the balance, the most important aspect of a MMORPG? Something went wrong, epic fail...

Some statements in this post a sarcastic and exaggerated, but if the evolution goes on like this, I fear that in some not to far future the game won't be worth playing it anymore.

I personally boycott Hercs, and I would be glad, if others Venos would realize and understand why and join me.

whatcha talkin' bout Willis?

Ok, who was the cleric who revived this thread?

hurrry we must kill it before it starts rolling... *gets pitch fork and stats stabbing it*

(filked from the old "LambChop PlayAlong" show)

"This is the Thread that Never Ends
It just goes on and on, my friends.
Some people started it, not knowing what it was,
And continue posting in it just because its
The Thread That Never Ends,
It just goes on and on, my friends,
Some people started posting, not knowing what it was
and they continue posting just because its the....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNTxr2NJHa0

b:chuckleb:laughb:cute

Damewort - Sanctuary wrote: »

Herc-less venos' aren't useless... they are more like replacable and unneeded.

-Well said. An element we're missing here is that Veno's are also heavily despised and hated. If you don't stand out as being exceptionally useful, they'll probably pick someone else. I've resolved to do mostly solo work. I'm personally disgusted with all the people that want to put my gaming time on hold so they can go AFK randomly for undisclosed periods of time. Same amount of time in TT (because of their dilly dallying), and I walk out with 6x as much soloing. One person goes AFK just before a boss in an FB, and the whole squad loses XP, time, coin, etc while they wait for this one person that could have gone a bit further and just stood there. It's no wonder we're despised. We don't have to put up with their ****. Well they also hate how we can mine while attacking.

Exactly! I am seriously considering getting herc at last and just because I could do more things in my own way and pace. Lately I am kinda feeling forced to get herc, just to get a "job". Otherwise I sometimes feel "jobless" in dungeon runs, where my only task is to DD and Amp.

Madijon - how about fb69 bosses?

Hmm.. this thread really doesn't end, does it? Still.... I'd like to say that I prefer doing dungeons with clerics, no matter if they have a charm or not. And about the venoes - I think the hercules is ALMOST needed when the veno is the tank, because it has a good physical defense. Like I said: ALMOST needed - venoes can tank with other pets. They just need to heal them more often than a hercules.