Mage unfair treatment

Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »

I think smart tab holders should be wanting wizards in their FB parties. And, not just in something like FB59.

You see, your chances of getting drops from an FB boss depends on the level of whoever kills him. So if you want good drop chances you want someone with an appropriate level and some serious damage potential.

Wizards are not completely unique, here, but we are not worthless, either.

(Also, our water damage buff -- if leveled -- helps archers deal damage. But you probably did not become a wizard so you could buff people?)

Umm, once again Wizards are secondary damage dealers to archers, proven fact. And the water buff gives a insignificant damage boost.

Jertor - Sanctuary wrote: »

well then go make another char and stop crying about it

How about you get off my ****ing balls. Just because I rant about how the game hates wizards (proven fact) doesn't mean I'm going to quit playing after 8 months. GTFO

Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »

So, like, when I am squadded with a level 60 archer, and everything he kills just drops coins and when I kill stuff I get *ahem* amazing stuff like bolts and mystical meat and so on, my average squad level gave me my droprate?

(I do not know what test you did, but maybe you should try again?)



b:cry

Hey maybe just maybe you don't understand that it has NOTHING to do with who kills it. Hate plays a PART in it, but not even close to all of it. Also since ur squading with a level 60 archer have fun leveling later on. b:bye n00b

well, this class is gimped first because of ppl just dismissing wizz for squads based on rummors. Then second, yeah, we have a few setbacks but also a lot of qualities, especially after lvl 80.

1. Hit points suck,, We can take only a few hits an make it out alive..

That's because one of things you need to learn about being a wizard is to try to avoid getting hit at all.

2. Range of are spells suck( We have to be close to the monster to even hit it. Which puts us in the monster range.)

That's not true. Wizard range is good, but not as great as an Archer's.

3. Then when you are fighting a monster it always happens to me that one or two just appears behind me and starts attacking.. Your died like always..

The thing about playing a Wiz is that you need to know how to deal with stuff like this, among other things. Know that when you reach LvL 30 you'll need to be watching out for both hostile mobs and players. TBH, PvE-wise all you really need to do is familiarize yourself with mob spawn points and whether some mobs are aggressive (attacks nearby players without provocation) or social (attacks players that attack its allies). Watching out for pkers is more tricky, I suggest you start familiarizing yourself with the "T" command while your level is lower.

4. You don't get your push back spell until lvl 39 so your screwed on that at the lower lvls when you really need it.

Not true. You can kite things, unless you completely ignored your damage-over-time spells. In that case you just made things much harder for yourself early-level wise. Many dispute the usefulness of damage-over-time spells PvP wise, but the fact is that you'll be using higher level spells for PvP anyway. PvE wise, damage-over-time spells are cast faster, have lower chanting time, have instant "hitting" animations and will remain useful to you until the time comes when you must replace them with better spells.

5. Our spells take to long to fire off so we have to use are best spells at the begin of the battle only then use your gush and fire spell from that point on.

That's the whole point of why Wizards have spells like Crown of Flame and Pitfall. Use Spark Eruption to make that first spell count, and get to higher levels ASAP so you can replace Crown of Flame and Pitfall with direct damage spells that you can use in PvP.

Tips
-If you develop your apothecary skills your Wizard will have a much, much easier time getting through low-mid levels. For just 15 nectars and 10 golden herbs for example you can craft low level "pills" that allow you to regenerate 50 HP per second when not in combat for 10 minutes. You can also teach your genie certain skills that will help improve your survivability.
Wizards today can focus more on offense with the right setup, you just have to be more aware of your other options in-game. No wizard who invested time in apothecary crafting will ever have a hellish time in low-level grinding... from mobs anyway.
Perhaps the same can be said about genies with Tree of Protection, but I've not yet personally tested out the skill. And as for people saying crafting is a waste of time, ignore them. Besides its amazing usefulness, around 15-20% of the time there will be a herb or some other crafting material near where you'll be meditating.
-Focus on Glacial Embrace if you intend to hold off PvP until higher levels. Since you'll be meditating a lot Glacial Embrace helps lower those meditation times. Note that +mana regeneration effects like the one from Glacial Embrace are greatly amplified when you're meditating.
Pyroshell/Stone Barrier are great for PvP, but not so much in PvE when not getting hit in the first place is what counts.
-If you have a laggy connection you might just want to reroll a new character altogether. Every second counts when you're fighting as a Wizard.

Witchburner - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sounds like Leo hasn't learnt to use FoW against all those magic mobs that pop up around that level.

well, yes i must admit that i'm a noob cause this is my second MMORPG
my first is Fiesta and my char was a mage there.
btw, can u teach me how to use phoenix? b:thanks

Jrudora - Lost City wrote: »

That's mainly why we aren't wanted for squads.
You've covered it pretty much.
Aside from damage dealing, we can only do a half assed job at the others.
For pulling, we'd get ourselves killed without decent gear, and when mobs run wild, we could accidentally cause a party wipe.

for this sole reason people invite venos to FB. their pets pull anything easily. to my own experience barbs, blademasters and archers cause more squad wipes than wizards.

Jrudora - Lost City wrote: »

Our damage is very high (second to archers), and given our squishyness, can cause some unwanted things to happen if we take aggro, which we easily do.

We can tank mantavip, and some bosses in fb59.
There are also some bosses I can tank in fb79, and 89.
But my gear is above average, and if i get interrupted during my attempt to tank a boss, my dps drops rapidly. What happens then is another dd, who surely can't tank the boss will take aggro, and if he dies, will take time to revive, and if things aren't done properly, will cause yet another party wipe.
Wizards can't keep aggro as well as bms/barbs. We're just not meant to tank.

only barbs and pets have decent aggro skills. blademasters have 1 aggro skill but it's very, very poor. i'd say it's useless.

robe wizards can tank any magic boss. yes, archer may take aggro but then... dead archer. it won't be your fault if it happens... on the other hand having an archer as tank on high magic boss means the archer will need 1 cleric with regeneration aura and another to ironheart(=2 players dealing 0 damage) while the wizard would need only 1 cleric to be kept alive.

Jrudora - Lost City wrote: »

We can be healers with morning dew, but we're only extremely effective during sutra. Otherwise, its a 4.5 second delay in between heals, which is usually too slow. I won't deny the fact that we as an emergency healer is incredible, but another cleric with maxed blessing of the purehearted can be an even better emergency healer than we can.

We do have "some" utility, but we're easily outclassed by others.
Introducing a mage into a party has a ratio of more risk than usefulness.

now you contradict yourself. we can save even barbs through sutra+morning dew. only clerics and wizards can heal others...

now tell me: how often to you squad barbs when grinding? never I guess. because they have low damage.

how often do you invite blademasters to FB/TT/FF? never I guess. because they aren't reliable tanks and their damage is not enough to take a slot as DD.

have you ever asked an archer to tank some high boss for you?

do you ever invite to FB/TT/FF more than 1 veno when 1 single veno is enough to tank bosses?

Jrudora - Lost City wrote: »

That, imo is why Mages are treated unfairly by PW developers.
We really should be given more squad based buffs that we can bring into the party.

I mean, let's sum it up:
Barbarians - Tank (obvious), Hp buff (Very useful), Physical buff (Debatable)
Clerics - Healers (obvious), Buffs (obvious), Resurrection (Obvious), can even dd on mobs when another cleric is in party. Serves as backup healers.
Blademasters - Stuns (to keep mobs from attacking as often, very useful), can serve as a backup tank, Aura (more defence, quite useful)
Venomancers - Single mob pulls, very important in HH. Hercules, to tank some magic based bosses which can damage a barb a lot. Can amplify damage for everyone else (although now we all got extreme poison), and can debuff as well for bosses that can buff themselves.
Archers - Sharpening Tooth Arrow, period. 16% of a boss' hp cut instantly is no laughing matter.

Mages: Half assed heal that takes 4.5 seconds to channel+cast, and... damage? Nothing else?

I call unfair T_T

1. we're the 2nd best DD class.
2. we're the 2nd best support class.
3. we're the best water/earth/fire tanks (HA wiz as sole exception).
4. we have the best AOE attacks of PW.
5. we have the best phys def boost of PW.
6. we have the 2nd best attack range of PW.
7. we have a number of different builds (pure, magic-vit, LA, HA)

I DO argue frostblade should be much better and elemental shell/soporific sleep should last longer but I do not support QQ.

I can't even tell if you're with me or against me, King_Solomon.
Anyhow, yes we can save a barb with sutra+heal, but blessing of the purehearted as a secondary heal is so much more effective. For one, it doesn't require the caster to have 2 sparks ready at all times, and second, it heals as effectively, if not even better than a mage's morning dew.

Not to mention, cleric's spells do deal a lot of damage.
PW's mobs have lower defence than magic defence by nature, which allows plume shot to deal more damage than cyclone.
We really can't dismiss the fact that a cleric's spell damage with cyclone/plumeshot is equivalent to our pyrogram/gush.

Given the choice, I'd rather have two clerics in my party than a cleric and a mage.
I would never switch out an archer for a mage, because sharpening tooth shortens the run by a LOT. I might switch out the blademaster, but blademaster's roar keeps the party alive a lot more than a mage can.

Yes we are the 2nd best DD class, that I won't deny.
But lets put it this way, the number of archers (Best DD) outnumbers us by a lot.
In a party situation, people prefer archers more than us, thus our slots taken.
We're the 2nd best support class, but sadly, that's all. We can easily be replaced by a 2nd cleric, which is also much more popular as a class than a mage is.
We are the best water/earth/fire tanks, but at the same time we can't hold aggro as easily when we're tanking (due to boss' quick attack speed and interruption rate)
We have the best AOE attacks of PW, but best AOE attacks != best party mate. The fact we do so much damage with our AOE attacks = we take aggro from mobs we should be avoiding = possible party wipe.
We have the 2nd best attack range, but archers are still ahead.
We have a number of different builds, but people might not even invite you if you're LA because now your damage is MUCH lower than an archer.
If you're a vitality build, same as above.
If you want parties with people who don't know you, then you're probably going to go pure for them to make the most of you.

The problem is we're only 2nd rated to just about every class out there.
Unless there really is absolutely NO OTHER PLAYERS AVAILABLE, we're rarely an option.

That should reinforce my points above.
What I'm hoping for is mages to have a party advantage that only mages can provide.
That, would really make this class more wanted.

EDIT: Now, facts aside though, personal feelings in, I kind of like the fact that we're a rare class, that people do not enjoy playing. Because now we can feel unique, and proud of ourselves for going through with a minor class and actually making it to the top Give yourselves a good pat on the back.

-Wizard damage > Archer damage. The archer has the potential for higher 1 vs 1 damage though, ie bosses, duels, pk but...
-Wizard are DD's and attackers by nature. Note how some of the "specialities" of other classes appear automatically ingrained as a debuff in some offensive wizard spells ie you're not supposed to stop attacking.
-Wizards outdamage clerics by a longshot. Then again, clerics don't need any more damage and can kill many things (including any unsuspecting Wizard) easily anyway. So be nice... Still, in the Wizard's defense if the cleric actually decides to use her spark for Spark Eruption like a Wizard...
-Spark Eruption is still one most important wizards skills. Sutra? VS bosses? What are you thinking?! You're not nuking a BM in hopes of killing him before he flays you alive, but fighting a very powerful monster with tons of HP. Spark Eruption grants less damage but using one spark at a time increases the number of attacks you can use it on. Pray for a crit. Or don't. Depending on where you want that aggro.
-Morning Dew is a situational heal. I really don't think it's even practical at all as a secondary heal. The venomancer's MP<->HP, that's a secondary heal.
-The wizard's main use is DD. Sadly that DD is not absolutely necessary and survival still > DD.

Jrudora - Lost City wrote: »

Anyhow, yes we can save a barb with sutra+heal, but blessing of the purehearted as a secondary heal is so much more effective. For one, it doesn't require the caster to have 2 sparks ready at all times, and second, it heals as effectively, if not even better than a mage's morning dew.

i can't deny clerics do it better than we do. the first time my guild kill 1-2 high drummer we had 2 clerics to keep squad alive while i kept barb up. we were all much lower than now but we succeeded. later on, we killed wurlord and finished fb70 with the same strategy. the point is: getting 2 clerics is not always easy. getting 3 is even worse... then why not to get a wizard to do it when there's not other choice?

nowadays i usually do fb59 with a lower barb and we don't need cleric to do it with wine. his charm never ticks. this week a friend (lower level wiz) told me he had soloed fb59 with HP charm. i've got to check it on my own because i think the wood boss still hits me a bit high. then i wonder... would an archer survive the other 4 magic bosses?

Jrudora - Lost City wrote: »

Not to mention, cleric's spells do deal a lot of damage.
PW's mobs have lower defence than magic defence by nature, which allows plume shot to deal more damage than cyclone.
We really can't dismiss the fact that a cleric's spell damage with cyclone/plumeshot is equivalent to our pyrogram/gush.

i've got to agree plume shot is great and that makes clerics kill inc mag res mobs without a sweat but we have 3 elemental weakness to hit. also we've got will of phoenix to push back mobs while the only thing a cleric can do is to seal the mob. also we have great slowing spells (which allows us to kite easily since very low levels), we have sutra, we gain more damage with spark eruptions due to higher % gains on skills and our ultimates are far superior than tempest.

Jrudora - Lost City wrote: »

I would never switch out an archer for a mage, because sharpening tooth shortens the run by a LOT. I might switch out the blademaster, but blademaster's roar keeps the party alive a lot more than a mage can.

well... i guess your FoW lvl is good. how many times have you saved archers?
see? we can do something they cannot... also your frostblade works flawlessly with archers. roar is better than FoW but in practise our range is far more useful to save squad mates. I don't mean replacing an archer or a cleric to get a wiz in. I mean they all can be in the same squad.

Jrudora - Lost City wrote: »

Yes we are the 2nd best DD class, that I won't deny.
But lets put it this way, the number of archers (Best DD) outnumbers us by a lot.
In a party situation, people prefer archers more than us, thus our slots taken.
We're the 2nd best support class, but sadly, that's all. We can easily be replaced by a 2nd cleric, which is also much more popular as a class than a mage is.

in PvP servers there are just too many archers because it's a known fact they have the highest dmg. even here in HT archers are more popular than wizards but getting into random squads is not hard, at least to me. not sure about LC but here some archers (even high levels from major guilds) make a lot of mess with TT squads.

Jrudora - Lost City wrote: »

We are the best water/earth/fire tanks, but at the same time we can't hold aggro as easily when we're tanking (due to boss' quick attack speed and interruption rate)

same happens to clerics and archers... probably you have already seen clerics soloing mantavip. even with their short channel ironheart/purify their HP bars show it interrupts a lot.

Jrudora - Lost City wrote: »

We have the best AOE attacks of PW, but best AOE attacks != best party mate. The fact we do so much damage with our AOE attacks = we take aggro from mobs we should be avoiding = possible party wipe.
We have the 2nd best attack range, but archers are still ahead.
We have a number of different builds, but people might not even invite you if you're LA because now your damage is MUCH lower than an archer.
If you're a vitality build, same as above.
If you want parties with people who don't know you, then you're probably going to go pure for them to make the most of you.

these alternative builds are supposed to be endgame choices as we have reset notes. but people don't care about it and make these builds since low level. as you say dmg is much worse than pure.
the last time i used aoe in a dungeon was at 20 20 20 on wraithgate. that was because the barb had died and half a dozen mobs would kill the cleric and then bye bye squad. i aoe them all and got killed but saved them. minutes later we had no barb and i had to tank it all. i tell this not to show up but to make you realise noob wizards may lead to squad wipes but experienced ones do just the very opposite.

All I can say is wait for the candies and watch the discussions change really quick

Cheaper - Harshlands wrote: »

Reszonate, I take it your new to this game? arcane cleric > wizard.
remember they have a physical attack which will 1 shot u mostly at lower levels if ur robe.

Just so you know BT can also 1shot clerics

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

We gain more damage with spark eruptions due to higher % gains on skills

Are You sure? I have to test it but I wouldn't expect the % gains on skills to matter at all. After You use a spark some value (for example 400% of equipment m attack value + level in case of advanced eruption) is added to your base M attack and I'm pretty sure that's it.

About being secondary DD. I'm not so sure too. Well I'm sure we are not primary and I'm ready to assume we are above clerics in case of party battles against bosses, where everybody is buffed, but Venos with their pets are not to be neglected especially in TT. Venos alone might do less damage than wizards and pets alone too, but combined? And the advantage is that the damage is split so pulling aggro is very unlikely.

I have a Veno at lvl 48 now so it's very low and everything can change yet, but so far there is no comparison between her and this wizard in terms of DPS. With her scorpion the veno outdamages the wizard from it's late 40's by a wide margin.

when a pet tanks a boss the veno is forced to heal it non-stop. but once the pet is not the tank there's a lot to explore... werefox skill befudding mist lowers target's accuracy by 70%. amplify damage makes the target take +20% damage for 2 minutes. there's a pet skill (forgot the name) which inetrrupts channel. now i ask: is it overkill to have 2 venos in a TT squad? I see most people preaching archers are better without knowing other classes enough. or maybe because archers are simple and straightforward while most classes have distinct skills paths and builds to follow?



If veno doesn't tank, they are the handsdown best DD in TT. It's not even comparable. Get Barb, Cleric, Archer, 2 Veno, ANY CLASS. Watch stuff die extra fast. Veno pet bugs ftw.

the accuracy debuff, no matter how good it is, doesn't affect a boss. u can't see a bosses accuracy. for all u know, you're trying to reduce 100k accuracy.

their accuracy is a huge number. reducing it wont change the effect of how often it may or may not hit. they have 100, 200, maybe even 1000x as much accuracy as a normal player.

if you've ever been a physical tank, and waiting for a mage to use sandstorm, you'll notice that there is no difference in how often it hits.