Heaven (Sage) vs Hell (Demon)

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  • Annor - Heavens Tear
    Annor - Heavens Tear Posts: 330 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Perhaps I didnt express it as clearly as I should, I am aware of what you are talking about.

    We can see the process as going:
    Equipment Damage -> "Per shot" Damage -> Cumulative (or average) "over time" damage

    +damage% and skills modify Equipment damage for higher 'per shot' damage
    Critical modifies 'per shot' damage for higher cumulative 'over time' or average damage.

    So yes, when I was talking about total damage, to be more accurate it uses your total physical attack (on a single shot basis) as a multiplier, rather than your weapon damage. Your cumulative/average damage is increased as a result, but not directly multiplied.
    Meek with words, abrupt with arrows.
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    This is getting too mathy b:cute

    what are your guys thoughts with genies and heaven/hell, especially relentless courage?
  • Bows_Spirit - Lost City
    Bows_Spirit - Lost City Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    your alright... you pked my crit necklace but your alright... 2 thumbs up for the nice guide b:victoryb:victory
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Mosz - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    good math flueri
    now let me add, roughly 50% more crit in demon version=well a crapload more wins in pvp, crits take away a lot from the benefit of hp charms

    Yes, unless your targets have too much maximum health, critical hits on charm users act like like something between 3x and 4x damage, instead of just being 2x damage.

    But "too much maximum health" will be different for demon archers than for sage archers.
  • Mosz - Heavens Tear
    Mosz - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,181 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Yes, unless your targets have too much maximum health, critical hits on charm users act like like something between 3x and 4x damage, instead of just being 2x damage.

    But "too much maximum health" will be different for demon archers than for sage archers.

    yah and everyone thats anyone past 80/90 has a lot of health and strong pots
  • XLight_LoveX - Heavens Tear
    XLight_LoveX - Heavens Tear Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    b:pleased i'll go demon for sureb:pleased
  • takeshi
    takeshi Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    I can argue everything about sage / demon it's all preferences b:angry
  • Susaku - Heavens Tear
    Susaku - Heavens Tear Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    ]I can argue everything about sage / demon it's all preferences b:angry
  • Allnighte - Lost City
    Allnighte - Lost City Posts: 143 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »
    This is getting too mathy b:cute

    what are your guys thoughts with genies and heaven/hell, especially relentless courage?

    145 energy at lvl 10? ewwwwww
  • Schism - Harshlands
    Schism - Harshlands Posts: 91 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    Fail archer number one on HL = DeaTHDealeR, how many more will follow b:bye
  • Arwena - Harshlands
    Arwena - Harshlands Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    thx good i read the text with lvl 55 :)
    as far as i could see from other Threads i found out that in pk hell is much better then heaven... i'll choose hell but 1st i have to reach the lvl which is needed to choose :)
  • Waterboy - Lost City
    Waterboy - Lost City Posts: 405 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    Schism - Harshlands wrote: »
    Fail archer number one on HL = DeaTHDealeR, how many more will follow b:bye

    Heaven archer ftw okay? b:shutup
  • tezuka
    tezuka Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    Sage Archer > Demon Archer
  • Randoms - Dreamweaver
    Randoms - Dreamweaver Posts: 305 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    tezuka wrote: »
    Sage Archer > Demon Archer

    I am awed!b:surrender
    I kill things b:victory
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    tezuka wrote: »
    Sage Archer > Demon Archer

    flawless argument. i tip my hat.
  • Cinema - Heavens Tear
    Cinema - Heavens Tear Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    i thought it was obvious that hell > heaven in almost every single way for an archer.

    what does heaven get? a weak blessing and take aim(though i like hell more)? sounds about right.

    there's a lot of fail archers in heaven's tear. luckily for them they have a pretty blue name to hide behind.
  • flashblind
    flashblind Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    Ok, don't go thinking I know what I'm talking about or anything, but I'd like some clarification on a few things. Actually their more like minor quips about your arguments.
    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

    - Frost arrow is teh **** against heavies.

    If you wanna throw 25 chi worth of minimal water damage at the opponent that's your prerogative. Seriously, you really wanna waste a quarter of a fury on a little amount of damage? You need the chi for much more useful things that will actually provide damage.
    Unless maybe they're using the arrow to slow the target rather than to deal heavy damage and it being elemental rather than physical is an added benefit. Remember it does slow, so if you're going to use it it might as well do special damage.
    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

    - Free 50 chi every minute

    Yeah that ****s useful, to an extent. In my opinion archers aren't as vigor based as almost every other class. You can easily overcome this little advantage with fury pots. Pvp wise the only real vigor skills you would use are: triple spark, aim low, wings of grace. Notice how there isn't a huge vigor requirement to pvp as an archer. You can pvp extremely effectively without having to kite for 3 minutes building it.
    weren't you just going on about how frost arrow is a waste of valuable chi, and now you are saying chi isn't actually needed that much. make up your mind.

    the chi used for the frost arrow would be regained in this way or in the extra attacks it would allow, or by another added heaven effect from another technique, and you wouldn't have to waste a pot on it, therefore allowing you to use another more useful pot (whatever for the situation)

    Oh and don't get me wrong, it's clear to even me that hell is better. b:surrender
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    what i meant was archer's don't need a lot of chi to pvp because they don't need to waste it on useless skills. we can pvp much better than a lot of classes without chi. i worded this a lot better somewhere in this thread but i cba to find it. anyways im out, gl heaven archers b:cute
  • fearsnipe
    fearsnipe Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    i just got done readin ur guide & im only a lvl 21 archer so i was wonder if u could mayb briefly list the useful skills ill need...ty any1 who can b:victory
  • Mosz - Heavens Tear
    Mosz - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,181 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    fearsnipe wrote: »
    i just got done readin ur guide & im only a lvl 21 archer so i was wonder if u could mayb briefly list the useful skills ill need...ty any1 who can b:victory

    *points to sticky at top of archer subforum*
  • Voxstellarum - Heavens Tear
    Voxstellarum - Heavens Tear Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited July 2009
    to orig. poster,
    my archer kills 3 mobs in a single spark and uses a tt80 sword when they get too close. your whole guide reeked of rage and crybabieness, i was built to destroy 5 other classes. all you can do is hope no one attacks you. haha just kill urself u lost city goober. you wanna have fun you learn how to think outside this conformist reject's box.
  • Waterboy - Lost City
    Waterboy - Lost City Posts: 405 Arc User
    edited July 2009
    Voxstellarum - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    to orig. poster,
    my archer kills 3 mobs in a single spark and uses a tt80 sword when they get too close. your whole guide reeked of rage and crybabieness, i was built to destroy 5 other classes. all you can do is hope no one attacks you. haha just kill urself u lost city goober. you wanna have fun you learn how to think outside this conformist reject's box.

    what does killin 3 mobs with a spark prove?
    y do u have a tt80 sword seriously...?
    o u were built to destroy these 5 class(y not 6 classes lol?) eh? i luv to c how u take down a wb at 9x 1vs1 or a la veno nix 1vs1b:chuckle
    PVE SERVER PPL FTW
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited July 2009
    Voxstellarum - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    to orig. poster,
    my archer kills 3 mobs in a single spark and uses a tt80 sword when they get too close. your whole guide reeked of rage and crybabieness, i was built to destroy 5 other classes. all you can do is hope no one attacks you. haha just kill urself u lost city goober. you wanna have fun you learn how to think outside this conformist reject's box.

    hh80 sword is 163 str. please go back to killing mobs on ht and stop trolling b:bye
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited July 2009
    Voxstellarum - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    to orig. poster,
    my archer kills 3 mobs in a single spark and uses a tt80 sword when they get too close. your whole guide reeked of rage and crybabieness, i was built to destroy 5 other classes. all you can do is hope no one attacks you. haha just kill urself u lost city goober. you wanna have fun you learn how to think outside this conformist reject's box.
    lol why on earth did you **** up your build just to wear a TT80 sword?
    3 mobs? wow my 90+ archer friends can do 7-8, lol, hell i can do 5-6.
    is crybabieness even a word...?
    theres 6 classes, what do you do about other archers, stupid?
    go back to HT, and be fail like zoe.
  • Mosz - Heavens Tear
    Mosz - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,181 Arc User
    edited July 2009
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    lol why on earth did you **** up your build just to wear a TT80 sword?
    3 mobs? wow my 90+ archer friends can do 7-8, lol, hell i can do 5-6.
    is crybabieness even a word...?
    theres 6 classes, what do you do about other archers, stupid?
    go back to HT, and be fail like zoe.

    vox was quite a foe in old days pure metal stat armors with high pdef and would switch to the sword becuase he hid in his elysium fowl staying stationary in an entire TW
  • stormhammy
    stormhammy Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited July 2009
    zmog thanks for this guide me am sure to go to hell now (^.^). me just started playing and decided to make an archer for no reason. O.o' typically i go priest/cleric/warlock/mage etc etc but for some reason decided to make an archer in PWI. now onwards to learn how the heck im going to build an archer!
    darthpanda16: Firefox crashed on me.
    Hawk:Do this. closing thread
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    Kantorek: Yeah.. you should try it. It's awesome.
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  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited July 2009
    yes, go archers!
  • dekciw
    dekciw Posts: 954 Arc User
    edited July 2009
    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

    - 90% damage mastery

    With hh90:
    Level 10 mastery: 5437-9094
    Sage mastery: 5834-9759
    Demon mastery: 5636-9427

    That's a bit flawed right there, of course the difference is minimal if you take two +0 weapon, but try comparing two +12 CV bows, the difference is much bigger. Go get hit by Yoshiki vs a hit from xnoodles(+11), 1 hits much harder than the other and it's not a 500 dmg difference.
    ZzXVdr5.png
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    dekciw wrote: »
    That's a bit flawed right there, of course the difference is minimal if you take two +0 weapon, but try comparing two +12 CV bows, the difference is much bigger. Go get hit by Yoshiki vs a hit from xnoodles(+11), 1 hits much harder than the other and it's not a 500 dmg difference.

    you can't compare damage from 2 different people. they won't have the same dex and maybe different grade of arrows. don't forget the range of damage the weapon has. low end damage on crossbows and bows are terrible compared to high end.

    +12 cv bow with 460 dex is only a 400~500 damage difference between hell and heaven bow mastery. I myself would be much more scared of crit's on top of high damage. :3
  • StormHydra - Sanctuary
    StormHydra - Sanctuary Posts: 2,221 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Lmfao bacon axes.
    Im gonna get them
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