Cleric vs. Wizards
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RedSpeller - Sanctuary wrote: »And here come the veno. non wizard stay out of wizard forums, you'r puts don't have any value.
I will say it one more time: since I get my level 59 skill I don't feel squishy no more.
Since I started to pvp, I never felt "Oh **** wizard sucks". All my duel don't last more than 15 secondes. Why? because cleric, veno and archer get sealed and sutra blade tempest. because bm/barb get slowed, distance shrink and sutra BID. Since I reached lvl 70 I don't get one shoted by archer or axe bm no more.
And each time I lost was on my fault, when I bad timed my attack. And same reason my enemies lost. Go ask Ayano-chan from Legendary, she's a wizard, not that high and she pwn at pvp. This is a real exemple from sanctuary. Go ask ELFron_M from Nefarious. Ask DirtyWiz from D'Gamers if they "suck".
AsimMehta don't listen to those people, they really don't know what their are talking about. If you want real opinion, ask the wizards I quoted above.
I love how you completely undermined my post without even reading it.
You're still at a level where blade tempest is considered "useful", because no one at your level is going to waste time refining their gears. Its such a low level it can't even be placed into factor.
At this moment, I can't one hit anyone my level with blade tempest, its impossible, unless I spark tempest. Clerics my level have 5k hp, my blade tempest does only about 2.7k - 3k damage to them. How's this going to one hit a cleric? Even mages my level have 3800+ hp. How I can't just seal, sutra, and blade tempest and hope to win in a pk war, its impossible.
And sutra blade tempest DOES require 89+ to pull off, unless you pop a chi pot during a duel (which is pretty darn pointless if you ask me, but suit yourself). I know the drill, sutra, get 50 chi, and blade tempest. But by the time you're 89... read above, no one can get 1hitted by a blade tempest unless you crit. If you're going to crit anyways, even a sandstorm would do, so I wouldn't factor in crit as a possibility.
Slowing a barb is practical, but slowing a bm is hardly.
You're either dueling complete morons as bms, or they're not paying attention. A bm my level has upwards of 6k - 8k hp, even if I sealed them, at most I can do during the 3 seconds I have (cast time involved), is about 2k-3k if i'm lucky. Even if they're slowed, bms can sprint, and believe me, once you're stunned from their arsenal of stuns its very hard to get away.
You could factor in sutra, but if we're both at full chi then its even harder because then they could use a sprint which nullifies slow movement, then what do you do?
This is a discussion my friend. If you're going to get all pissed off and start telling others not to listen to anyone, then you're in the wrong place. Let others decide what is truth and what isn't. I won't go as far as saying I'm all fact either, so don't go around saying anything of that genre.
I enjoy my mage a lot, but I still accept the fact the class is gimped.drag0nball wrote: »Sandstorm is stronger because at lvl 10 sandstrom deals 300% from weapon damage and wield thunder only 200%
and with the sage demon skillthe number is higher toofor sandstorm..
And BTW wizard has Glacial Snare skill too and that is even stringer than sandstorm at lvl 10...
Maybe thats why wizards hit a bit harder...
And I cant say wizards is a PVE class...the undine strike wich reduces 60% of magic resistence its not that usefullfor mobs...nonetheless 600 mana waste I think...nand the sleep skill too is useless in PVE...Ultimate skills are a waste also in PVE...
And I dont know how solo can be a wizard...I neevr could solo a single boss...but veno can venin TT too...
Glacial Snare might be slightly stronger, but a 15 seconds cooldown is very impractical. Sandstorm is stronger than wield thunder, that is true.
But I can't say that the difference is enormous either.
100% weapon damage doesn't make a huge difference until we start getting better weapons we can obtain.
I still stand by my point, no one in this server is anywhere NEAR rank 8.
Wizards don't revolve around Undine Strike.
That skill is beautiful, and I use it even during PVE (because of magic resistant mobs =P), but I still can't say wizards are very pvp oriented either.
We lack disables, and we lack opponent control. Compared to archers, our pvping ability is fairly limited.
By solo though I meant that comparing the party versus solo effectiveness of a wizard, wizards can solo grind a little better than their worth in a party. (Exception of a zhen party).0 -
Chocooo, what level are you working at? At 8x I'm getting 1hko if I can manage to get a BT off. Though, mostly pure cleric instead of massive hybrid.0
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My wizards currently level 87... just 2 level short of going sage =(
Another reason though, is that people on Lost City tend to refine their gear a lot more after 8x... which in turn gives them a lot more hp than BT can handle alone.
Edit: 2 more levels though and I might change my mind.
After all, many mages do mention that after getting to 89/90, mages turn for the better.0 -
Don't worry I know blade tempest will only work from 59 to 80, that why mine wont pass lvl 6. I was talking about my own experience since Mikel was telling I gave extreme exemples.
89+ bring you montain seize maxed or almost, 6sec stun is very good. At 79+ you get Undine and Soporiphic, some more usefull skills to replace the sutra BT.
The lvl 101 guide resume pretty well all the arsenal wizard have to kill people and the video show those combo are possible.
Stunlock answer is Soulcleanse Orb to remove the debuff and shrink away, it work pretty well ^^.
The golden jade was a exemple Kristophe, it was just a way to show that is actually possible to win a cleric quick enough to not be slept.
Well if I appeared agressive it wasn't my goal, It' just the expression of my lassitude from those people coming in wizard forums saying "We own you and you suck".
Every one tell this in every "Which class to take" or "Which class own" and everyone answer "the class don't matter its the player behind"[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Guys are you discussing anything here or is it some competition in hand waving? Have some respect for your readers.
Mysticlifex - Heavens Tear wrote: »RedSpeller, you really don't know anything, even at level 100 a cleric will crush a wizard.
This looks bad, but it's just a little revenge on RedSpeller who dismissed Chocoo's post based solely on her avatar. I think she deserved it but let's leave it. There is no need to comment on this. (and there is no need to post this in the first place)
Mysticlifex - Heavens Tear wrote: »Every single wizard v cleric thread the wizards can't seem to take into fact that a cleric buff = for cleric they do not have to buff the wizard.
So just accept the damn fact that cleric have higher magic atk and defence, with physical not far behind.
Clerics do not have to buff the wizard. That's a fact. If we want to have a discussion here we have to answer the following questions (and maybe some more). Does it matter or not? If not, why? Buffed fulll mag cleric with equivalent equipment has more M attack than unbuffed full mag wizard and vice versa. Does it matter or not? Why? What do You do when someone wants to duel You and You are not buffed yet? Do You always get buffs before leaving safe zone on PvP serwer? Where do You find the sucker to buff you every time? And what are the numbers? Higher, lower, not far behind doesn't mean much. What are the numbers?
Mysticlifex - Heavens Tear wrote: »When you look at people go on about 'level 100 then wizards will beat clerics' you can only laugh and say.. how pathetic.
This is to be ignored. Ignore it.
Mysticlifex - Heavens Tear wrote: »You will not out damage a clerics IronHeart.
Now tha's some statement. Is it right? is it wrong? Prove Mysticlifex wrong by giving the numbers. Mysticlifex prove you are right by giving the numbers
Mysticlifex - Heavens Tear wrote: »Sutra will be Negated with Guardian Light,
Can You argue with that? Argue. Not? Say "that's right"
Mysticlifex - Heavens Tear wrote: »33.1 second sleep is going to own you.
Describe that owning in detail. The number is big. Are you going to be satisfied, if readers fall just for that. Or do You care about those who can think?
Mysticlifex - Heavens Tear wrote: »Deal with it,
grrrr...
Realising to be wrong is no shame. I didn't know some pills work in duels. Ok I stand corrected. Do wizards have to take drugs to own or to be even a match? What drugs can clerics take as a countermeasure? What is wizard worth without drugs and full chi bar? Doest he still own?0 -
I originally rolled a veno because I wanted a tail and the stats were fairly even for my playing style (distance preference). When I was examining the classes, Wizard scared me stat wise. But then I did more research and watched the forums for a couple weeks.
I started a Wizard because my husband's BM had a quest that required one to tag with him. I figured I'd ditch the wiz after that quest. But I started to like it. But, after more reading, I wondered if it wouldn't be better to make a Cleric for my secondary character instead. So I started one of those.
Two weeks later I had Wizard and Cleric both to 20 along with my original Venomancer. I discovered that while all three work well as distance PvE (particularly Venomancer), I found Wizard and Cleric to be more engaging with the skillsets I had available to use. I loved Flight with the Cleric, and the limited buffs I already had access to were nice as well. But while progressing along the healer path and getting Res skils and such to benefit my guild and squadmates was tempting, I went Wizard.
Why did I go Wizard for my main? I love it. She was the second I leveled to 20, and while I was catching up with my Cleric, I found that I wasn't having as much fun. Oh, flying is delightful (and switching back to not having it sucks), but having only one element to cast? That disagrees with me. I'm used to tailoring my tactics to take advantage of an opponent's weakness. And while I am on a PvP server, PvE is still a big part of leveling up and strengthening your character. The wizard's range of elements gives me the variety I need and suits my tactical style. I can stay back, tailor my spellcasting to the mob's weakness, and have a blast. Literally, I'm already seeing some nice numbers flash up.
And I can do this without being followed around by every random person going BUFF PLZ. I'm a helpful sort - I'll do it, but I don't want that to be all I am. As a Cleric, the role expected of me would be healer. I don't see myself spamming heal for the next 80 levels. I see myself attacking things - and for me, FAC just wasn't an appealing route. So I went Wizard.
As for us being unwanted... I disagree. There are very, very few wizards on Harshlands. But that just makes us more valuable. Sure, everyone's hollering on WC "Need Cleric for ___", but I belong to a guild that has plenty of those. And the Ranks know the value of a Mage - our strengths in tanking certain bosses, and our value in TW. It just takes an adjustment of mindset instead of automatically going BARBTOTANK.
And you know what, I'm having fun. I don't care who pwns who, I just know that I've settled into a class that, while hard to play, is also more rewarding to me personally because I know that when I'm doing well, I had to actually work with some Skill to do well. I'm a tactics and technique person. Very vital thing to a SquishyMage.
I chose this class for endgame. I don't care if the Wiz Pwns Endgame turns out to be true or not, I'm just enjoying the trip to get there
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Harshlands || Lareish (Wz), Enraged Executor || AKA Howl Leader Garmr
~~ ~~~ The semi-sane, optimistic cynic with a light heart. ~~~ ~~0 -
Lareish - Harshlands wrote: »I originally rolled a veno because I wanted a tail and the stats were fairly even for my playing style (distance preference). When I was examining the classes, Wizard scared me stat wise. But then I did more research and watched the forums for a couple weeks.
I started a Wizard because my husband's BM had a quest that required one to tag with him. I figured I'd ditch the wiz after that quest. But I started to like it. But, after more reading, I wondered if it wouldn't be better to make a Cleric for my secondary character instead. So I started one of those.
Two weeks later I had Wizard and Cleric both to 20 along with my original Venomancer. I discovered that while all three work well as distance PvE (particularly Venomancer), I found Wizard and Cleric to be more engaging with the skillsets I had available to use. I loved Flight with the Cleric, and the limited buffs I already had access to were nice as well. But while progressing along the healer path and getting Res skils and such to benefit my guild and squadmates was tempting, I went Wizard.
Why did I go Wizard for my main? I love it. She was the second I leveled to 20, and while I was catching up with my Cleric, I found that I wasn't having as much fun. Oh, flying is delightful (and switching back to not having it sucks), but having only one element to cast? That disagrees with me. I'm used to tailoring my tactics to take advantage of an opponent's weakness. And while I am on a PvP server, PvE is still a big part of leveling up and strengthening your character. The wizard's range of elements gives me the variety I need and suits my tactical style. I can stay back, tailor my spellcasting to the mob's weakness, and have a blast. Literally, I'm already seeing some nice numbers flash up.
And I can do this without being followed around by every random person going BUFF PLZ. I'm a helpful sort - I'll do it, but I don't want that to be all I am. As a Cleric, the role expected of me would be healer. I don't see myself spamming heal for the next 80 levels. I see myself attacking things - and for me, FAC just wasn't an appealing route. So I went Wizard.
As for us being unwanted... I disagree. There are very, very few wizards on Harshlands. But that just makes us more valuable. Sure, everyone's hollering on WC "Need Cleric for ___", but I belong to a guild that has plenty of those. And the Ranks know the value of a Mage - our strengths in tanking certain bosses, and our value in TW. It just takes an adjustment of mindset instead of automatically going BARBTOTANK.
And you know what, I'm having fun. I don't care who pwns who, I just know that I've settled into a class that, while hard to play, is also more rewarding to me personally because I know that when I'm doing well, I had to actually work with some Skill to do well. I'm a tactics and technique person. Very vital thing to a SquishyMage.
I chose this class for endgame. I don't care if the Wiz Pwns Endgame turns out to be true or not, I'm just enjoying the trip to get there
I totally agree. The wizard play is the hardest in that game, but at the end is satisfaction of yourself much more than other classes. I'm 34 years old and I'm level 56 wizard. Lot of children(same main) don't like play wizards, because is too hard and need lot of patiente. I see it on myself. :-) This is another reason why is wizards so low in that game. Nobody wants to build their character so hard as a wizard. But at the end is price of building much more worth than another class. And also wizard became one of most powerfull class in game for sure. (It depends on strategy and equipment what you have). I like to play wiz. because is it veeery hard and that is what is count.
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Sorry for my english.0 -
Rule - Heavens Tear wrote: »Chocooo, what level are you working at? At 8x I'm getting 1hko if I can manage to get a BT off. Though, mostly pure cleric instead of massive hybrid.
Lost city builds are a lot more geared towards pvp. You'd be hard pressed to find a pure cleric that's 8x unless they're just that for grinding and restatting at 90."Amour is better suited to rainbow text, because he is a classy lady." - Nakhimov
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Wait a minute, clerics have a 30 sec. sleep? So they can put a player to sleep for 30 seconds, and do with it what they want? If you (any class except clerics) attack a cleric 1v1, and he notice you are there, he just like put you to sleep for 30 seconds and then take ALLL the time to kill you, as you arent able to to anything for 30 seconds?
I think I don't get that spell very much cause this seems like a very overpowerd skill. Doing with a target everything you want for 30 seconds while he isnt able to do anything.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
CeliaZ - Sanctuary wrote: »I think I don't get that spell very much cause this seems like a very overpowerd skill. Doing with a target everything you want for 30 seconds while he isnt able to do anything.
I think sleep can be rather powerful, but people wake up when they get hit.
They even wake up when I did not notice they were asleep and I attacked them uselessly. b:cry0 -
Pirodar - Sanctuary wrote: »Guys are you discussing anything here or is it some competition in hand waving? Have some respect for your readers.
Having read the title did you expect something more than handwaving? Its inflamatory.Pirodar - Sanctuary wrote: »
Clerics do not have to buff the wizard. That's a fact. If we want to have a discussion here we have to answer the following questions (and maybe some more). Does it matter or not? If not, why? Buffed fulll mag cleric with equivalent equipment has more M attack than unbuffed full mag wizard and vice versa. Does it matter or not? Why? What do You do when someone wants to duel You and You are not buffed yet? Do You always get buffs before leaving safe zone on PvP serwer? Where do You find the sucker to buff you every time? And what are the numbers? Higher, lower, not far behind doesn't mean much. What are the numbers?
Situational. Wiz's can get the buffs as well as BM+veno+barb. To make an argument you'd have to have each one of the situations mapped to have a well rounded look at what is really going on. Saying a wiz can't get buffs to be in a duel is pretty silly, personally, I'm buffed 80% of the time so chances are I'd be far more likely to be in a duel buffed than not. 2nd Duels are not a comparison between the classes. When clerics start self healing prior to the duel itself its clearly not an even footing. Pk will show a different story in most situations, he who hits first wins.
Mysticlifex can do his own numbers. How many heals do you get to stack prior to getting ganked? How many heals have been stacked prior to a duel when no one else can do anything? Are apothacary items being used? Which level are which players using what skills at which levels with which equipment...does it hold true at all levels.
Using Event food, mantou, apoth items, an outside heal or 3, bramble, pots, etc...All modify the situation. How fast is my connection, how fast is thier connection, is the server lagging, is my comp better than thiers? Is there a cat in the room?
Its an impossible excercise. The only method that can work here is to wait until lev 100 vs 100 from many different people and look for the trend.0 -
When you compare two Classes - it's all about classes here - that automatically means each class with it's own personal advantages without the interuption of potions or godly equipment equal to 2000 USD, with it's own arcane of spells - last time I checked, Clerics have more, sure Wizards will always have highter dmg than a Cleric but the Cleric will always be close behind either you like it or not and with the buffs it will have highter survivality than the wizard.
At least that's the way i see it, you're welcome to agrue on that or flame or whatever, just keep it under a proper language so people can actually respect your opinion.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Mikel_oru - Sanctuary wrote: »When you compare two Classes - it's all about classes here - that automatically means each class with it's own personal advantages without the interuption of potions or godly equipment equal to 2000 USD, with it's own arcane of spells - last time I checked, Clerics have more, sure Wizards will always have highter dmg than a Cleric but the Cleric will always be close behind either you like it or not and with the buffs it will have highter survivality than the wizard.
At least that's the way i see it, you're welcome to agrue on that or flame or whatever, just keep it under a proper language so people can actually respect your opinion.
No. If your arguing a class agrument then you'd best do it in every circumstance.
Else your sitting naked with no wep or equip or skills except your 1 skill you learned starting the game.
At that you'd best be on the same network with the same pc's with identical twins who both had the same amount of sleep and the same food and are in identical health.......zzzzzz
If you section off one tiny thing and argue it a clear case can be made that X is better than X. Turns out thats a biased view. Compare it across the board and a different view might appear.0 -
Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »I think sleep can be rather powerful, but people wake up when they get hit.
They even wake up when I did not notice they were asleep and I attacked them uselessly. b:cry
AAHhhhh they wake up when they get hit. I get it now, thank you![SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
thats why you use BIDS or BT (something to 1 hit them) b:chuckleSins are Scissors. Psychics are Rocks.
Archers, Venos, Barbs, Wizards, BMs, Mystics, Seekers are Paper.
...and Clerics are Mushrooms.
Paper beats Rock. Scissors beats Paper. Scissors also happens to beat Rock...until Rock gets 50k+ soulforce at which point Rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine that beats Paper... and would beat Scissors but it can't find Scissors, because Scissors are invisible.
So Scissors beat Paper and avoids Rock, and that is called BALANCE. -cheze0 -
Mikel_Oru give it up, these wizards will bring -
-Apothecary
-Another classes buffs
and of course their own over powered heals.
Into every Cleric versus Wizard discussion, there is no point.We're MysticAve my name is not Dave
(Poem in the making - Shall be epic)0 -
Mystic You Are Baaaaaaaaaaaaack!!!!!!!
I Missed You So Much
*kisses And Hugs*Sins are Scissors. Psychics are Rocks.
Archers, Venos, Barbs, Wizards, BMs, Mystics, Seekers are Paper.
...and Clerics are Mushrooms.
Paper beats Rock. Scissors beats Paper. Scissors also happens to beat Rock...until Rock gets 50k+ soulforce at which point Rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine that beats Paper... and would beat Scissors but it can't find Scissors, because Scissors are invisible.
So Scissors beat Paper and avoids Rock, and that is called BALANCE. -cheze0 -
Are all wizards like Mizuoni, I believe so.
Clerics and Wizards are the best combined, forget about those useless archers pff lol0 -
sage0nemage wrote: »Clerics and Wizards are the best combined
Yeah that's good for wizards. But is it for clerics? Why would they even want to team up with a wizard? What do they get they don't have already?0 -
they get me! b:chuckleSins are Scissors. Psychics are Rocks.
Archers, Venos, Barbs, Wizards, BMs, Mystics, Seekers are Paper.
...and Clerics are Mushrooms.
Paper beats Rock. Scissors beats Paper. Scissors also happens to beat Rock...until Rock gets 50k+ soulforce at which point Rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine that beats Paper... and would beat Scissors but it can't find Scissors, because Scissors are invisible.
So Scissors beat Paper and avoids Rock, and that is called BALANCE. -cheze0 -
sage0nemage wrote: »Are all wizards like Mizuoni, I believe so.
Clerics and Wizards are the best combined, forget about those useless archers pff lol
Dunno about you but I prefer BMs.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
mikel you said i was the only oneb:crySins are Scissors. Psychics are Rocks.
Archers, Venos, Barbs, Wizards, BMs, Mystics, Seekers are Paper.
...and Clerics are Mushrooms.
Paper beats Rock. Scissors beats Paper. Scissors also happens to beat Rock...until Rock gets 50k+ soulforce at which point Rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine that beats Paper... and would beat Scissors but it can't find Scissors, because Scissors are invisible.
So Scissors beat Paper and avoids Rock, and that is called BALANCE. -cheze0 -
Depends what you prefer doing, spamming heal or killing. If you want to kill, and have a killing partner? Wizards are probably the best choice. If you want to fly around being someone's healing b*tch? Party up with a BM.Mikel_oru - Sanctuary wrote: »Dunno about you but I prefer BMs.Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.0 -
Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »Depends what you prefer doing, spamming heal or killing. If you want to kill, and have a killing partner? Wizards are probably the best choice. If you want to fly around being someone's healing b*tch? Party up with a BM.
Healing b*tch? Are you joking? All I do is put a couple of heals and I get tones of exp from the BM's aoes, is that "healing b*tch" for you?
You could see it the other way around, I have an idiot doing all the work for me (since you like this childish view) b:victory[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
I typically partner with BM, but that happens to be my husband's class so it's the logical choice since we're usually on at the same time
Gotta say though, I once paired with another wizard and that particular quest went super quick XD
I've also paired with Barb before, with a Cleric out of squad to heal without taking exp. That worked rather nicely - it was before I got my Morning Dew so having the occassional mob nick healed was nice.
I've paired with Cleric before on my own Cleric, and it worked well. Not as well as Wiz Wiz though. There was more pain involved. But then when you're your own HP pot I suppose that isn't much of a problem. Until the MP pots run out >.>[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Harshlands || Lareish (Wz), Enraged Executor || AKA Howl Leader Garmr
~~ ~~~ The semi-sane, optimistic cynic with a light heart. ~~~ ~~0 -
2 clerics, enough said.We're MysticAve my name is not Dave
(Poem in the making - Shall be epic)0 -
Yeah. those wizard parties are formed no without a reason. Those are companions in misery, useless for anybody else, so they stick together. Thank God it at least works.0
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For quests a Cleric/Cleric, Cleric/Wizard or Wizard/Wizard is nice but when you are after exp, nothing beats Cleric/BM.
And well the first set of parties is pointless, after 60 you rarely find people that wanna party even if we do same quests, everyone is after drops and they don't care about speed/fun/effectiveness, gets boring when players start beeing like MMO robots just looking for money.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Mikel_oru - Sanctuary wrote: »they don't care about speed/fun/effectiveness
Oh I do. Just tell me what I do, to help with that.0 -
Pirodar - Sanctuary wrote: »Oh I do. Just tell me what I do, to help with that.
As I said most don't care, not all of course.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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