New "physical and magical piercing" stats

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  • tictic99999
    tictic99999 Posts: 204 Arc User
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    the question that remains is whether the new stat is a percentage based thing like attack/def levels or spirit, or if it is just flat penetration.
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  • koudelkamorgan
    koudelkamorgan Posts: 140 Arc User
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    it seems to be a percentage. I think I have 66 magic penetration and on our stat screen at the bottom it says I mitigate .66% defenses.
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  • missinin17
    missinin17 Posts: 38 Arc User
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    Does physical penatration work with venomancer's fox skills? (I'm asking because some ppl say physical penatration won't have effect on casters)
  • astralwalk
    astralwalk Posts: 58 Arc User
    edited August 2015
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    koudelkamorgan wrote: »
    it seems to be a percentage. I think I have 66 magic penetration and on our stat screen at the bottom it says I mitigate .66% defenses.

    ya i noticed the same, so going by this value, you would need 100 penetration to equal 1% acutal penetration. So presumably with 1500 penetration you would have 15% defense/resistince ignored. That means you won't really be seeing the acutal value of penetration until you have quite a bit of it.

    missinin17 wrote: »
    Does physical penatration work with venomancer's fox skills? (I'm asking because some ppl say physical penatration won't have effect on casters)

    Physical penetration would still apply to a caster to who has it, but your physical damage is likely to be **** anyway so you won't notice the difference regardless.

    Yes physical penetration will apply to foxform skills because they are doing physical damage.
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  • demansfairy
    demansfairy Posts: 456 Arc User
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    So I ran a really quick test to try to figure how penetration works (resists urge to write horrible joke). I current have 1.31% mag pen, I took off my wep( so that the damage inflicted would be a constant number) and hit another level 105 player who had 90.93% mag res. The damage increase from equipping my star chart was 3.61%. So I have no idea how this works yet and need to run more tests but at least it seems the damage increase is greater percent wise than the penetration percent you have.
    full +12 SB, currently lv 105 105 105
  • asterelle
    asterelle Posts: 861 Arc User
    edited August 2015
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    I did a pretty good test and can confirm the tooltip is accurate. The measured effective defense of a target when I had 61 penetration was 0.613% lower than their actual defense regardless of their buffs/debuffs. This was within the margin of error for the measurement.

    def.effective = defense.actual * (1 - penetration / 10000)

    So if you get 10000 penetration somehow than you will be able to ignore defense/resistance.    ​​
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  • demansfairy
    demansfairy Posts: 456 Arc User
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    asterelle wrote: »
    I did a pretty good test and can confirm the tooltip is accurate. The measured effective defense of a target when I had 61 penetration was 0.613% lower than their actual defense regardless of their buffs/debuffs. This was within the margin of error for the measurement.

    def.effective = defense.actual * (1 - penetration / 10000)

    So if you get 10000 penetration somehow than you will be able to ignore defense/resistance.    ​​

    is defense actual the percentage of their reduction or the number of their phy/mag def?

    full +12 SB, currently lv 105 105 105
  • mosz
    mosz Posts: 247 Arc User
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    asterelle wrote: »
    I did a pretty good test and can confirm the tooltip is accurate. The measured effective defense of a target when I had 61 penetration was 0.613% lower than their actual defense regardless of their buffs/debuffs. This was within the margin of error for the measurement.

    def.effective = defense.actual * (1 - penetration / 10000)

    So if you get 10000 penetration somehow than you will be able to ignore defense/resistance.    ​​
    So it's a multiplier and not a subtraction? Bummer.
    Was hoping it would subtract from enemies %reduction, would be more beneficial against mega end game players
  • eirghan
    eirghan Posts: 1,912 Arc User
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    so.... For the leypeople since yknow. I suck at math. Does this mean that it "penetrates" through or ignores multipliers like def levels and spirit to take a chunk off your basic ele/phys defenses?

    And if so is this penetration amplified by levels/spirit?

    Sorry for being dense like i said i suck at this math stuff -waves flag-

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  • mosz
    mosz Posts: 247 Arc User
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    eirghan wrote: »
    so.... For the leypeople since yknow. I suck at math. Does this mean that it "penetrates" through or ignores multipliers like def levels and spirit to take a chunk off your basic ele/phys defenses?

    And if so is this penetration amplified by levels/spirit?

    Sorry for being dense like i said i suck at this math stuff -waves flag-

    this was just explained on the last page:
    tictic99999 wrote: »
    You guys have it all wrong. Defense levels and spirit are both modifiers, amplifiers if you would of your current stats. They are both nothing without a large amount of physical and magical resistance. If your resistance is lowered, your total defense is lowered and the lowering is then amplied, the same way if you gain more resistance your damage is reduced. (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻


  • zoner112012
    zoner112012 Posts: 943 Arc User
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    eirghan wrote: »
    so.... For the leypeople since yknow. I suck at math. Does this mean that it "penetrates" through or ignores multipliers like def levels and spirit to take a chunk off your basic ele/phys defenses?

    And if so is this penetration amplified by levels/spirit?

    Sorry for being dense like i said i suck at this math stuff -waves flag-

    It just ignores the percentage of their defense. It doesn't CHANGE any of their stats, just allows you to ignore them with your damage.
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  • eirghan
    eirghan Posts: 1,912 Arc User
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    mosz wrote: »
    eirghan wrote: »
    so.... For the leypeople since yknow. I suck at math. Does this mean that it "penetrates" through or ignores multipliers like def levels and spirit to take a chunk off your basic ele/phys defenses?

    And if so is this penetration amplified by levels/spirit?

    Sorry for being dense like i said i suck at this math stuff -waves flag-

    this was just explained on the last page:
    tictic99999 wrote: »
    You guys have it all wrong. Defense levels and spirit are both modifiers, amplifiers if you would of your current stats. They are both nothing without a large amount of physical and magical resistance. If your resistance is lowered, your total defense is lowered and the lowering is then amplied, the same way if you gain more resistance your damage is reduced. (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻


    Yes, I see that it was mentioned but I don't see any one agreeing or disagreeing or any hardcore proof. Was asking for clarification. Thank you.

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  • demansfairy
    demansfairy Posts: 456 Arc User
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    I'm still a bit confused, let's say my opponent has 90 % m def and I have 1k mag pen. So does that mean their new m def is 81% now and I'm dealing 90% more damage? Or is it 90% of their actual n7mber (which would be around 40k m def) and then it runs that new number (36k) through the def percentage formula agian?
    full +12 SB, currently lv 105 105 105
  • shade13
    shade13 Posts: 633 Arc User
    edited August 2015
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    demansfairy wrote: »
    I'm still a bit confused, let's say my opponent has 90 % m def and I have 1k mag pen. So does that mean their new m def is 81% now and I'm dealing 90% more damage? Or is it 90% of their actual n7mber (which would be around 40k m def) and then it runs that new number (36k) through the def percentage formula agian?
    Take actual numbers. For example, I have 40k mdef (my real approximate mdef), according to Asterelle's formula, it will be

    40 000*(1-1 000/10 000)=36 000

    Like cleric mdef debuff. Not too OP, but adds up a bit. Especially if it stacks with other debuffs (I suppose it does).    ​​
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  • asterelle
    asterelle Posts: 861 Arc User
    edited August 2015
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    Now that it's been out for a while I was able to do a test with bigger numbers and see the formula is a bit different than I thought (not noticeable until you get > 100 penetration).

    penetration % = penetration / (10000 + penetration)

    so

    def.effective = defense.actual * (1 - penetration / (10000 + penetration))

    That means when you get 10k penetration it's as if the enemy has half as much p.def or m.res as they really have. You never can reach 100% penetration.    ​​
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  • jabq
    jabq Posts: 821 Arc User
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    asterelle wrote: »
    You never can reach 100% penetration.

    Ah, how the internet could pervert that statement. Btw @asterelle the link for pwe forum enhancement extensions is not working properly right now.​​
  • limonazza
    limonazza Posts: 332 Arc User
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    did anyone make a damage test on buffed\unbuffed chars to verify how this penetration interacts with them?
    give us some tests and numbers please
  • jamminjimmy
    jamminjimmy Posts: 141 Arc User
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    83 mag peircing = reducing tagret mag def by.82% wierd math not like 100 stat =1% reduction. so stat of 830 would reduce targets mag def by 8.2% same if have pshy peircing stats
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  • thesquee1
    thesquee1 Posts: 44 Arc User
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    @astrelle What about when our defense is capped? Like, if I used buddhas guard and raise my defense over 100k, would physical penetration still amplify damage or would it be cutting through the roughly 40k P.Def I'm not using?
  • limonazza
    limonazza Posts: 332 Arc User
    edited September 2015
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    but the fundamental thing is that it doesnt subtract the damage reduction percentage, but it subtracts a % of the max resistance value like a common debuff,
    is this right?
    one more question, if you stack debuffs, this penetration subtraction will be applied on the max resistance value or on the post-debuff available value?
  • asterelle
    asterelle Posts: 861 Arc User
    edited September 2015
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    @limonazza Common debuffs go off the equipment defense so casting undine on a bm in magic marrow doesn't do much (even less after primal passives). Penetration goes off the total defense though after buffs and debuffs so it will take away more defense from a buffed target.
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  • igoplop
    igoplop Posts: 124 Arc User
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    Can seekers and archers take advantage of the magic penetration with their lightning attacks or would it just count for physical pen?
  • mistressmuerta
    mistressmuerta Posts: 152 Arc User
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    XD my % reduction build may prove to be very effective against the new penetration system.
  • thesquee1
    thesquee1 Posts: 44 Arc User
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    asterelle said:

    @limonazza Common debuffs go off the equipment defense so casting undine on a bm in magic marrow doesn't do much (even less after primal passives). Penetration goes off the total defense though after buffs and debuffs so it will take away more defense from a buffed target.

    I'll ask again since you didn't seem to notice, but if as a BM I use buddhas guard and have about 130k P.Def, since around like, what, 78k defense is cap reduction, would that physical penetration be cutting through the 40-50k P.Def I'm not using or would it be cutting through the actual 95% and ignoring the unused defenses?
  • shade13
    shade13 Posts: 633 Arc User
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    mistressmuerta wrote: »
    XD my % reduction build may prove to be very effective against the new penetration system.
    Do various builds even exists now? Everyone is forced to go one and the same scheme - r9r, cards have no %reduction, chart has no % reduction. Only engraves? I wouldn't call it a "build" xD​​
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  • limonazza
    limonazza Posts: 332 Arc User
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    @thesquee1 at cap it will ignore 25% of 130k = 32,5k = he will hit you like you have 98k resistance​​
  • mistressmuerta
    mistressmuerta Posts: 152 Arc User
    edited September 2015
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    Do various builds even exists now? Everyone is forced to go one and the same scheme - r9r, cards have no %reduction, chart has no % reduction. Only engraves? I wouldn't call it a "build" xD​​

    I started a build on the veno forums playing around with stacking % reduction on the r8r stats...Atm my veno has 40% pdmg reduction and 10% magic...r8rr would have offered more stats but it has an abysmal chance of getting the 40%pdef 40%mdef i was seeking initially and potentially could cost more than maxing out r9rr.

    lol @ me failing the quote by Shade13
  • freygin
    freygin Posts: 737 Arc User
    edited September 2015
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    So does that mean Physical Penetration isn't the same as 'Subtract X Pdef' from the target ? I'm not familiar with the new equation since where I play haven't gotten the update. Is it a NEW modifier put into damage formula ?

    I have a 99.999% accurate damage calculator which is not user friendly, I'd like to test it if anyone can provide the needed variables, preferably a cleric as the attacker and any class for the target.

    Here is how I usually test my character's damage output against others, it's quite accurate.
    [url=http://i520.photobucket.com/albums/w323/smurfin88/Forums/Spiritpvp.jpg~original[/url]


    Oh, and does it have any effect on Monsters too ?
  • mindwarrior
    mindwarrior Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited September 2015
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    asterelle said:

    Now that it's been out for a while I was able to do a test with bigger numbers and see the formula is a bit different than I thought (not noticeable until you get > 100 penetration).



    penetration % = penetration / (10000 + penetration)



    so



    def.effective = defense.actual * (1 - penetration / (10000 + penetration))



    That means when you get 10k penetration it's as if the enemy has half as much p.def or m.res as they really have. You never can reach 100% penetration.    ​​

    I do not understand what people are still so confused about now. The mechanics were explained and Asterelle posted the formula forum complete.

  • shade13
    shade13 Posts: 633 Arc User
    edited September 2015
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    mistressmuerta wrote: »
    I started a build on the veno forums playing around with stacking % reduction on the r8r stats...Atm my veno has 40% pdmg reduction and 10% magic...r8rr would have offered more stats but it has an abysmal chance of getting the 40%pdef 40%mdef i was seeking initially and potentially could cost more than maxing out r9rr.
    Problem of r8r is lack of attack/def lvl. Even with such stats maxed out, r9r won't be a match for it. And since r9 is quite obtainable for most (unlike China version for example), r8r is not competitive. You don't want to spend tones of money, more than r9r would cost, refine it to +12, full josd, get a bit closer to survivability probably, but be hopelessly left behind in terms of damage. That's what I'm talking about.

    Attack is the best defense.    ​​
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