Why demon barbs are superior to sage barbs?

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  • Joe - Morai
    Joe - Morai Posts: 1,299 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    Barbs these days need to spam aggro-skills in terms of holding aggro? xDDD

    In terms of dealing pure dmg the Demons are superior. Bestial Onslaught gives a nearly constant +40% crit. That one skill alone out-DMGes all sage Barbs by far. Same can be applied in PvP.

    For cata pulling and stuff where HP matters more then dmg then ofc Sage barbs are superior. So you see...everything works by design.
    My Barb:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#146464

    My SB:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#141476
  • DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver
    DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,396 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    Joe - Morai wrote: »
    Barbs these days need to spam aggro-skills in terms of holding aggro? xDDD

    Did you mean: "Barbs these days holding any aggro at all if the squad doesn't care?"
    Soon™
    Well, maybe later, semi-retired.
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands wrote: »
    "wow, demon barbs really have to do a lot of hard work to keep agro from the dd's"

    I wonder how you get that idea when it is clear that sages have to work harder. They do 40% less crit after all (your not saying you try to hold agro with ream are you ? thats something only sage barbs can think of really and is vastly inferior to straight forward demon DD
    The only ones who steal agro from me are the very best of R9+12 casters/DDs. And as i said only the very best, just R9+12 is not enough, they need emperor etc too. (which i dont have)
    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands wrote: »
    I have zero problems keeping agro on my sage barb, and the people that do steal agro either 1) tank the mobs easily with cleric heals or 2) deserve to die because they lack the survivability to do just that... survive! (damage output is irrelavent if you can't stay alive to hit things, sorry).

    You say zero problem and then the people that do steal agro. That does not compute. It means you have problems. But by blaming it on the DDs, you make yourself believe you dont. As a demon barb, i offer my squad the comfort of not needing to hold back.
    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands wrote: »
    There has also been a constant argument about chi gain, which after playing a sage and demon, I feel the sage has an easier time of it. On my sage I can just sit there and spam FR, alacrity and devour while keeping bestial rage in cd and I stay full of chi.
    True, sage devour and ream are easier to keep going. As said, demons laugh about those 2 skills.
    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands wrote: »
    As far as damage out-put, and the crit rates that demon barbs hail as the thing makes sage barbs fail, all I can say is "meh". The crit rate increase from bestial onslaught only lasts for 6 seconds

    Lol 6 seconds on an 8 second cooldown. Meaning you almost permanently have 40% crit bonus. Now that is precisely why demons laugh about ream and devour.
    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands wrote: »
    so unless you're popping a vac or using violent triumph (which will use another 50 chi you may or may not have to spare) before hand any bm or sin can stun lock you for many more than 6 seconds. So after all that work, your crit bonus is gone...all that chi wasted on sunder for nothing...what a shame.

    You sound like a nab truely. I say that even though i am a pvp nab myself. I definately dont have a problem casting onslought and then another skill. Usually i stun my enemies first before i do so. And indeed, fortify, AD, vac, VT, they are all there to be used against classes with good CC. Does it matter that i used my genie or apoth if i then proceeded to 2 shot my opponent ?
    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands wrote: »
    " the same applies to your beloved sunder combo as well.

    Sunder is a PvE skill. It is what allows us to solo pull and kill undefended(double mobs) warsong pavs for example. I dont think i ever cast it in PvP unless i happen to run into a cluster of 10 enemies in bridge battle, then i might just AD-IG and do a sunder combo.
    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands wrote: »
    Also, I find it very important to point out that when you aren't receiving all these "super awesome omg" crit bonuses from your skills, your damage out-put is just well....meh, not any better than mine as a sage. b:pleased

    That is indeed very important. It is the reason why i use them continuously and i receive the bonus continuously. Because i dont want my damage output to be just like yours.
    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands wrote: »
    In the case of pve, with 55k pdef and 17k mdef I'd rather have the decreased m atk from sage roar and take SoV from a psy or bramble from a veno. b:laugh

    Ye i think i too would prefer sage roar over demon simply cuz mellee enemies are no thread. I never get to cast roar anyway though as i prefer to be stunnig my enemy over the defence that tiger gives. Tiger is only to cast ancestral rage, right after onslought for 80% crit. Can you imagine what that does when you have the chi to spark first ? I can tell you: it two shots R9+10 AA/LAs right trough their charm. From range that is.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver
    DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,396 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »
    You are level 5, when you grow up, you will find that nowadays there is a toad boss that needs to be tanked by barbs b:pleased

    >implying i'm not posting from an alt account because i cba to manually enter my password on main
    >implying people don't know who I am by now, and I haven't said it multiple times

    I run/ran/lead FSP daily, I know how every single little part of PvE works in PWI. I know toad is best done with a barb, but you don't need a barb at all for it, anyone can tank it, granted you know how.

    People should know better by now than to judge a player by a forum avatar. Specially when the forums are broken at that part.

    -Edit-

    Where'd your post go qq
    Soon™
    Well, maybe later, semi-retired.
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    I was just kinda making fun with that level 5 thing. And since i wasnt even sure what you were trying to say in the first place, i deleted my post :p

    Surely i know it is technically possible to tank it without barb, it seems very rare. Every day i see people WCing for barbs, sometimes half an hour long :)

    Why not post from your main. Dont expect me to go and remember who the F you are. (broken? i never change my forum avatar as i dont see a reason why. The forum doesnt change it by itself)
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver
    DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,396 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »
    I was just kinda making fun with that level 5 thing. And since i wasnt even sure what you were trying to say in the first place, i deleted my post :p

    Surely i know it is technically possible to tank it without barb, it seems very rare. Every day i see people WCing for barbs, sometimes half an hour long :)

    Why not post from your main. Dont expect me to go and remember who the F you are.

    Because I don't know my main's password from the top of my head, randomly generated passwords ftw.
    Clicking the account name thing also leads to dblazen1, take off the 1 and you have my name.

    I never had that issue with fsp, but that's because I take my alt barb on this account with me to tank it b:pleased
    (which is sage, there, now I contributed on the sage/demon barb thing this thread is about)
    Also because I like sage SoT better than demon.
    Soon™
    Well, maybe later, semi-retired.
  • LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands
    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    wannabm - Archosaur wrote: »
    i Wonder How You Get That Idea When It Is Clear That Sages Have To Work Harder. They Do 40% Less Crit After All (your Not Saying You Try To Hold Agro With Ream Are You ? Thats Something Only Sage Barbs Can Think Of Really And Is Vastly Inferior To Straight Forward Demon Dd
    The Only Ones Who Steal Agro From Me Are The Very Best Of R9+12 Casters/dds. And As I Said Only The Very Best, Just R9+12 Is Not Enough, They Need Emperor Etc Too. (which I Dont Have)

    This is all a matter of perspective I guess. You say you're better because you have these skill bonuses. I say you're not because you depend on them. I'm not the best geared barb out there, but I'm definitely not the worst either, and I do just fine holding agro on bosses with 3 simple skills. The object of this is the get the maximum effect with minimal effort.
    wannabm - Archosaur wrote: »
    you Say Zero Problem And Then The People That Do Steal Agro. That Does Not Compute. It Means You Have Problems. But By Blaming It On The Dds, You Make Yourself Believe You Dont. As A Demon Barb, I Offer My Squad The Comfort Of Not Needing To Hold Back.

    Nice twist, try reading (and understanding even) the whole phrase, not just the part you want and get back to me. I bet you lose agro a lot more than you think you do.
    wannabm - Archosaur wrote: »
    true, Sage Devour And Ream Are Easier To Keep Going. As Said, Demons Laugh About Those 2 Skills.

    Refer to my first comment.
    wannabm - Archosaur wrote: »
    lol 6 Seconds On An 8 Second Cooldown. Meaning You Almost Permanently Have 40% Crit Bonus. Now That Is Precisely Why Demons Laugh About Ream And Devour.

    Again, see above. Also, I don't see whats funny about devour when the 50% decrease in pdef helps things die faster? b:surrender

    wannabm - Archosaur wrote: »
    you Sound Like A Nab Truely. I Say That Even Though I Am A Pvp Nab Myself. I Definately Dont Have A Problem Casting Onslought And Then Another Skill. Usually I Stun My Enemies First Before I Do So. And Indeed, Fortify, Ad, Vac, Vt, They Are All There To Be Used Against Classes With Good Cc. Does It Matter That I Used My Genie Or Apoth If I Then Proceeded To 2 Shot My Opponent ?

    I use and abuse my genie and pots just as much as anybody else does. You sound like you were having a hard time making a valid point as to why what I said is even relevant, and all you did was say that you do exactly what I suggested. In the words of the Virgin Mary.... "Come again?"
    wannabm - Archosaur wrote: »
    sunder Is A Pve Skill. It Is What Allows Us To solo Pull And Kill Undefended(double Mobs) Warsong Pavs For Example. I Dont Think I Ever Cast It In Pvp Unless I Happen To Run Into A Cluster Of 10 Enemies In Bridge Battle, Then I Might Just Ad-ig And Do A Sunder Combo.

    I disagree, if it deals damage or debuffs whatever it is that you're hitting then you should use it. You get the same amount of healing from sunder whether you hit one person or 10. I'm more likely to run in and ToP and arma a group of 10 than I am sunder them. Take firestorm for example, have you ever watched a bm drop from firestorm while they were in phys marrow?
    wannabm - Archosaur wrote: »
    that Is Indeed Very Important. It Is The Reason Why I Use Them Continuously And I Receive The Bonus Continuously. Because I Dont Want My Damage Output To Be Just Like Yours.

    Anybody else notice this guy capitalizes the first letter of ever word, and not just important ones? And again, please see above.
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    Well nothing to reply to really. You say pretty much nothing in your post. (except that you manage to change my text to all caps and then act like its me doing it lol....)

    You should squad with a good demon barb sometime and see it in practice i guess.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands
    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    I said nothing? Lmao. Just like you said so much nothing about demon barbs laughing about barbs that use FR, alacrity and devour? And by the way, changing all those words to caps would take more time than I'm willing to put into replying to you, and simply not worth the effort.

    Again, matter of perspective here...maybe you should squad with a good sage barb and see it in practice.
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    Look at my post. Do you see those caps ? ok....

    So you said you did say something lets have a look.
    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands wrote: »
    This is all a matter of perspective I guess. You say you're better because you have these skill bonuses. I say you're not because you depend on them. I'm not the best geared barb out there, but I'm definitely not the worst either, and I do just fine holding agro on bosses with 3 simple skills. The object of this is the get the maximum effect with minimal effort.

    You say i depend on them. Everyone depends on their skills, without your skills you cant do anything. So you depend on ream, i depend on onslaught. Thats what i mean with saying nothig.

    You want to know minimal effort ? I use a macro (onlsought - stomp - slam - mighty sw- stomp - Swell. All i need to do is spark and macro. I used to say macros is for nabs, but it simply is not really possible to do better, unlike as i will explain next is the case with tiger tanking.

    When you ream on the other hand, you have to work very hard trying to balance 2 evils: You dont want to use normal attacks in between your reams (against aps resist bosses) but your other skills dont all have the perfect duration to fill the cooldown time. So you need to either delay reams a little bit now and then or accept normal attackes in between. I tried reaming on a macro too, but that doesnt work nearly as well.
    If you consider yourself skilled you should have realised these nuances of tiger tanking and you cant really talk about minimum effort.
    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands wrote: »
    Nice twist, try reading (and understanding even) the whole phrase, not just the part you want and get back to me. I bet you lose agro a lot more than you think you do.

    Thats what i mean with saying nothing

    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands wrote: »
    Refer to my first comment.

    Thats what i mean with saying nothing
    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands wrote: »
    Again, see above. Also, I don't see whats funny about devour when the 50% decrease in pdef helps things die faster? b:surrender

    Ok here you said something !. Yes devour has a nice debuf. Fortunately, other classes have a similar one and they overwrite eachother. Clerics like to debuf as well and since my DD keeps me easilly alive with BP, they dont need to heal me and have all the time they wish to debuff and DD. I used to have PA in my macro, but i think it was Joe who pointed out this fact, causing me to remove it from my macro.
    If you want to know how things die faster: Its by having a demon barb tank trough DD. This way all the other end game DDs can DD to the best of their ability as well and toad dies in 1 spark.
    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands wrote: »
    I use and abuse my genie and pots just as much as anybody else does. You sound like you were having a hard time making a valid point as to why what I said is even relevant, and all you did was say that you do exactly what I suggested. In the words of the Virgin Mary.... "Come again?"

    What are you saying here ? Looks like a lot, but its nothing really.
    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands wrote: »
    I disagree, if it deals damage or debuffs whatever it is that you're hitting then you should use it. You get the same amount of healing from sunder whether you hit one person or 10. I'm more likely to run in and ToP and arma a group of 10 than I am sunder them. Take firestorm for example, have you ever watched a bm drop from firestorm while they were in phys marrow?

    Ok, here a little something again. No, its not as simple as anything that does something should be used. It costs 2 sparks that i can use much, much more effectively when onslought does pretty much the same thing for free. I couldnt care less about those few HPs it heals really. Using arma instead of sunder is both a gear and a demon/sage thing. Arma used to be really impressive before i got my R9 axe refined. Now its more of a gimmick compared to the damage of my other skills. And with demon sunders crit, it about the same or more dmg than arma. With me just explaining that onslought does the same as sunder but for free, you can see where that puts arma. And for chaining after the crit skill bonus, the real barb killer skill is ancestral rage, not arma. For a demon str barb ofc. A sage vit barb would probably like arma more. Lets not start a debate on that arma vs a demon str barbs ancestral rage because a str barb and a vit barb are a totally different thing.
    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands wrote: »
    Anybody else notice this guy capitalizes the first letter of ever word, and not just important ones? And again, please see above.

    We had that one covered already lol.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Joe - Morai
    Joe - Morai Posts: 1,299 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    On the dmg test NPC...well I can deal even more dmg with a triple sparked, max stacked bloodrush (58-81k FTW! with only 830 STR that is)) Ancestral Rage combined with enrage (frenzy) and EP compared to an Arma + ToP & EP (46,5k HP in Tiger with a 105 STR genie). OFC I dont bother if I zerk/Crit on dmg tests...really...it's hard to multiply by 2 or 4 or to devide by 2 or 4 xDDDDDD
    My Barb:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#146464

    My SB:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#141476
  • slamstone
    slamstone Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »
    You should squad with a good demon barb sometime and see it in practice i guess.

    same can be applied to you also b:chuckle ijs, although because demon barb fanclub has so many followers, the chances to find an actual good sage barb and see it's potential are very slim.

    @LucKaS_SiX: you do realize you're arguing with a demon fanclub right?



    When the winds of change blow, some people build walls and others build windmills.
  • overcomem
    overcomem Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    Haroin - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Kitty made some research and Invoke, Solid Shield and sage spark all stack together. BUT, BB overwrites sage spark's damage reduction.

    Kitty's yet to test how the damage reduction stacking ish calculated, but as a hypothesis Kitty assumes they multiply each other as 0,5*0,75*0,1(SS+Sage Spark+Invoke) resulting in 3,75% of incoming damage taken. If demon barb stacked Solid Shield and Invoke in a similar way, it would result in 5% of incoming damage taken if Kitty's hypothesis ish correct.

    The reason why Kitty thinks the damage reduction ish calculated exponentially ish that if Solid Shield and Invoke was calculated cumulatively, it would result in -40% incoming damage taken(in other words, incoming damage would heal).

    When speaking of this low damage taken 25% difference in such a low damage shouldn't really matter anymore o,o


    You said like you know everything but it's just all your theory. One day if you have sage and go solo PV100+ you will see a different, sage spark + solid shield I always use it in PV100+ even in NW I always do when my invoke cooldown.

    But you will never know cause your all theory and not sage.b:bye

    And hey for you sage guys you didn't know this forum most of them are Demon Fanclubs?? I have no wonder why barb forum is really boring b:shocked

    I suggest stop making a thread to compare to sage. Yea I know sage sucks just leave them sucks and leave Long Live Demon Barbs to forumb:thanks
  • Joe - Morai
    Joe - Morai Posts: 1,299 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    overcomem wrote: »
    You said like you know everything but it's just all your theory. One day if you have sage and go solo PV100+ you will see a different, sage spark + solid shield I always use it in PV100+ even in NW I always do when my invoke cooldown.

    But you will never know cause your all theory and not sage.b:bye

    And hey for you sage guys you didn't know this forum most of them are Demon Fanclubs?? I have no wonder why barb forum is really boring b:shocked

    I suggest stop making a thread to compare to sage. Yea I know sage sucks just leave them sucks and leave Long Live Demon Barbs to forumb:thanks

    Because it seems to me that most Demon Barbs are end-game while the majority of sage ones are just roaming around with full g16 at max.

    All the precious defensive upsides of a sage BM vanish @end-game. I for one nearly 1-shot the mobs in PV with a random AOE. They deal nearly 0 dmg on me. Who the hell needs even Solid Shield, or Invoke if they die one-shot anyways? I've yet to see a compareably Sage Barb holding the Aggro in FSP even against FULL deity sins. I can and I'm not even full STR (APS/DEX BUILT). Note: That only applies if there are all debuffs on the boss and not, let's say only soulshatter to boost the dmg of a specific class only cuz then I will lose aggro...anyone would.

    Bestial Onslaught is a killer. No. The Killer argument for Demons. There is nothing to add and nothing to talk about other then that.

    WannaBM said that all the tiger skills are kinda useless because you won't hold aggro with them in end-game squads. You need to stand their and spam the hell outta your skills. Then and only then (granted you got the right gear to do so) you can hold the aggro against anyone.
    My Barb:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#146464

    My SB:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#141476
  • slamstone
    slamstone Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    Joe - Morai wrote: »
    Bestial Onslaught is a killer. No. The Killer argument for Demons. There is nothing to add and nothing to talk about other then that.
    you clearly overestimate your bo as a general point in your arguments demon vs sage, might wanna revise your strategy for the almighty demon lore. this has changed alot since NH.
  • Joe - Morai
    Joe - Morai Posts: 1,299 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    slamstone wrote: »
    you clearly overestimate your bo as a general point in your arguments demon vs sage, might wanna revise your strategy for the almighty demon lore. this has changed alot since NH.

    Nope it got even worse since NH. I have a constant 80% crit while being in Human form with BO on. That means I pretty much crit anytime. I can bash out ~6-7 skills (including BO) during those 6 seconds. If they all crit compared to just your sages Stomp and maybe half the other skills thats roughly 30% more dmg. Constantly. That even gets worse for sages as the crit rate goes down due to lack of gears (or DEX). The lower your basic crit the more beneficial will the Demon BO be compared to the Sage one.

    I wouldn't have rolled Demon if I wouldn't have been sure 100%. I agree that the gap got a little closer since NH (Sage BO getting its channel time reduced was kinda as unfair as the missing weap Attack reduction of sage tiger form but meh but then again xD thx for the 3 sec CD on stomp =P). That's all.
    My Barb:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#146464

    My SB:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#141476
  • slamstone
    slamstone Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    Joe - Morai wrote: »
    That means I pretty much crit anytime. I can bash out ~6-7 skills (including BO) during those 6 seconds.
    Pls share those 6-7 skills u hit in those 6 seconds (try to include cast time+channeling time into the equation, also try to consider delay in lag and fps as that has a role too). ty
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    http://www.pwdatabase.com/items/11299 b:chuckle

    For real, ye i think Joe exaggerates a little. Our fastst skill takes a little less than a second to cast, but you cant cast only that one. In reality 4-5 sounds more reasonable :)
    Im not sure if the 5th skill on my macro is within the crit, i think it is. Next time im fighting something ill record it and check in in slowmotion. Who knows maybe it will show me to change the order of my skills :p

    Just looking at the cast/channel times, in theory, the whole chain of 6 should fit in the crit duration. (the dmg is calculated at the end of channel/begin of cast point)

    But in that same theory, the whole chain would be too short to cycle with the 8s cooldown while in reality it works just perfect. Indeed some delay trough lag or whatever.

    (onlsought - stomp - slam - mighty sw- stomp - Swell)
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Joe - Morai
    Joe - Morai Posts: 1,299 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    xD nah. I useally do (no macro as it is way slower, really, test it. it is.) BO, stomp, penetrate Armor, garotte, mighty swing, slam, stomp and sometimes another Penetrate Armor.

    Both stomp and PA have only a 3 sec cd and are very fast which is why I use them the most. I don't even care about the chi cost of PA, it's still a fast and strong skill.

    I see absolutely no prob in that xD

    As a note: My ping usually doesn't exceed 80. FPS are always above 60 in instances at least.

    Edit: Sometimes I add clean Sweep in exchange for slam. That way all 8 skills will hit 100% during the crit duration (including BO, ofc)

    EDIT+: I love PA btw, using that skill all the time guarantees that the aggro will be on me. Chi waste? I don't think so. But dang...just another skill like Stomp and PA would be needed to push a barb to perma 1,3 aps per sec with skills xDDD Da hell that would be amazing.
    My Barb:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#146464

    My SB:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#141476
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    Joe - Morai wrote: »
    (no macro as it is way slower, really, test it. it is.)

    O.o Ill try that as well and record it for slow motion. Time to do a TT run on with axe instead of fists me thinks.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Joe - Morai
    Joe - Morai Posts: 1,299 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »
    O.o Ill try that as well and record it for slow motion. Time to do a TT run on with axe instead of fists me thinks.

    I've actually done that lots of times for fun...when you use Chi Syphon/Cloud Eruption and or regular white teas...well it's not really slower compared to fists only. maybe even a bit faster =P
    My Barb:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#146464

    My SB:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#141476
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    Joe - Morai wrote: »
    I've actually done that lots of times for fun...when you use Chi Syphon/Cloud Eruption and or regular white teas...well it's not really slower compared to fists only. maybe even a bit faster =P

    Ill make a decent comparison on that too. I tried it once just to see how it roughly goes and it seemed to me that fists are about 2-3 faster even when keeping the skill spam sparked (which with my marcro i can do for 4-5 sparks or so, but not as you say with PA in it)
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Joe - Morai
    Joe - Morai Posts: 1,299 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »
    Ill make a decent comparison on that too. I tried it once just to see how it roughly goes and it seemed to me that fists are about 2-3 faster even when keeping the skill spam sparked (which with my marcro i can do for 4-5 sparks or so, but not as you say with PA in it)

    OFC PA would only be in terms of max aggro holding and max dmg in the shortest possible amount of time. Usually when I'm alone anyways I don't use it that often xDD just once for a spark for debuffing matters.
    My Barb:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#146464

    My SB:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#141476
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    Ok test results:

    First boss on macro:

    4 cycles take 42 seconds. Lag is round 500ms, this clearly players a role since i designed the macro to fit exactly within the 8second cooldown, but it is a bit slower.

    Trying it manual selecting the skills with my mouse was a disaster, i even did some normal attacks in between. You need to select the next skill during the channeling of the last to cast them at optimal speed. Lag was too much of a problem, also im quite a slow poke with my mouse. (that was proven already when i played starcraft and topped at 140 APS wheres the korean pros would manage 300+) Putting the skills under my keys helped a bunch. Now i managed to get exactly the same result as the macro, but not any faster. I started spamming the next skill button each time as soon as the last one began channeling, i tried to compensate a tiny bit for the lag by starting to spam the button a little faster (start pressing button 3 when you see that skill 1 is finished casting) Didnt help.

    So at least for me, doing it manual surely doesnt help. Maybe with unhuman reflexes and 80 ping its possible ? I dont know. Unfortunately i cant test that because i have neither unhuman reflexes nor ever ping like that (300ms makes me very happy, 500 is more standard) It doesnt sound logical to me though since i assume all the macro does is send a chain of skill casts just like you do manually. If you can make them faster manually, could you make a vid and upload it ? If you convince me, maybe i have a goal to practice and work on again :D

    As for the damage output of axes vs fists i have tested in 3 ways, everything without any buffs or debuffs:
    I killed the boss with the big balloon on his back with my axes. I did it in 3 sparks and a few hits to finish it off. Almost exactly 500k dmg per spark.
    The next boss i killed with my fists. Here i did 950k dmg per spark

    I then killed a twilight wraight fighter with fists in exactly 10 seconds
    I prodeeded to kill another one with axes in exactly 20 seconds. I did not spark again because it was faster to do the last 2 hits unsparked. Technically if the spark had lasted it would have been 18-19 seconds.

    Finally when i was killing armageddon i did a few sparks with axe as well.
    This guy actually seemed a bit weaker. Now i did 550k per spark with axes and 1m with fists.

    So ye, +10 fists kill about twice as fast as +12 axes and manual skill casting doesnt help for me :)

    PS: I got the 5th skill within crit bonus, but not the 6th. I checked this during my illusion lord kill when the lag was better and the chain fitted exactly in the cooldown like it is supposed to.

    PPS: This means i have crit bonus on 83% of the skills i cast. These skills get an 80% crit chance instead of a 40% one. So the damage output benefit from the crit bonus can be casted as follows:
    no crit bonus: 6 x 1.4 = 8.4 * base
    + crit bonus: 5x 1.8 + 1.4 = 10.4 * base
    10.4/8.4 = 1.24. So demon onslaught increases the total damage output by 24%. A fraction more actually, because for this very reason i put swell last. It is only the weakest attack that lacks the crit bonus.

    PPPS:
    As for the comparison of reaming vs DDing: During the 15s of a spark, you can ream 5 times (not considering the problem i posted about earlier) Ream adds about 20k agro, so it would add 100k during that time. With the addition of a stomp of the king (100k added agro every 30s) and some devours, that could well amount to about 200k agro in 15 seconds.

    In tiger you arent perma sparked and dont benefit from the crit bonus. The damage output should be about 40% of the standing DD (if you can manage to not have any standard attacks between reams and still cast ream perfectly after its cooldown every time) So with equal gear, this would cause about 200k damage + 200k agro for a total of 400k vs the 500k standing.

    That doesnt sound too bad and ream in addition sets your agro equal to the squad member with the highest count if that is not you (meaning you already lost agro, which is not a good thing but not a disaster if its only half a second or less) This effect would make tiger tanking about just as viable. With other DDs also doing near 500k per 15 seconds, you would lose agro only for a fraction of the time (20%) before ream takes it back. Most likely, this is not enough for the boss to really turn around and kill your squad (although you could be unlucky in the timing)

    However in squads, there usually are enough debuffs to multiply your damage by 4. It however does not multiply the agro added from agro skills. So now the picture totally changes and while the axes now do 2m damage in 15s, the tiger barb still is stuck with a sad 200k added agro on top of what is now 800k real dmg. for 1m total. So now you have 1m vs 2m from DD and you will lose agro half the time. (in the middle of ream cooldown.) This will surely allow toad to turn and kill your squad every single time unless you ask them not to spark/HF.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands
    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Options
    Ok, it's become painfully obvious to me that you probably didn't do very well in reading comprehension when you were in school, so I'm going to ask you a very simple question that only requires a yes or no answer. I'll even use small words for you...

    Can you tank without having to rely on the extra crit you get from bestial onslaught and sunder?

    Save me all of the other bull**** you have said over and over already, there are 12 pages of other barbs saying the same exact thing. Personally, I don't think you can.
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    Its becoming painfully obvious to me youre a r3tard, and you ask a r3tard question.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands
    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Options
    I'll take that as a no, thanks.
  • Joe - Morai
    Joe - Morai Posts: 1,299 Arc User
    edited August 2014
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    LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands wrote: »
    I'll take that as a no, thanks.

    Even without the crit bonus I could tank anything. Is it because I use devour, alacrity or Flesh Ream? No! It's because I have a friggin 40% crit basic and an attack stat of 42k at max combined with 142 Attack Level.

    The extra crit from BO leads to faster dying bosses. I can hold the aggro against anyone. GL in doing so with those pathetic aggro skills (if you can still call them as such). I'd really wish we had great aggro skills that would allow any barb to hold the aggro against anything. But sadly that's not the case.

    Today you only hold aggro via dmg. Nothing more, nothing less. Cept you want your squad to wait for you to generate aggro. No brag...but after all I guess FSP's Frog would be dead from my dmg alone even before you actually pulled off enough aggro for you to actually keep it til the end of the fight and no. That's not an overestimation of myself. I need 3 Triple Sparks then the boss is dead. With debuffs ofc...but oh well (no HF tho).

    It doesn't matter sht if you are sage or demon in terms of holding aggro. Does demons deal lots of more DMG compared to sages? Yes, ofc they do. So what's the big problem here?

    I guess it's still the blurred picture of some ppl how barbs should be. If you are always looking from the PoV of a full vit barb with redicolous low Attack then ofc the crit bonus doesn't matter that much because the dmg in general will suck. FULL STR or ~200 Dex/max STR is the way to go these days. Don't even think about holding the aggro as a vit barb. Vit barbs are only good as meat shields in NW and TW and that's it. They are pretty much useless anywhere else.

    @WannaBM: I surely can record some...but I dunno when I got the time...alrdy been a stressful week ._. but xD after all those server problems on Morai yday I guess I kinda overestimated my possible crit-time skills by 1...it's nearly impossible even for me to put them ALL up...Morai is lagging these days xDDD

    PS: Again. This is not a brag. A brag about gears anyone can have would be stupid anyways. It's to show you guys that those hardened images of a "Barb" became inaccurate over the past years. For PvE, DMG is all that counts these days. Same goes for PvE. I hardly die to anyone in 1on1s and have a hard time to die even against 10 other r9 ppl...even with my pathetic 46,5k in Tiger. But it's sufficient for PvP as well. Days are long gone when you needed 60k+ HP to be a good TW/NW Barb. Trust me...if you can kill oyur enemies before they can hurt you...well you get no dmg at all then =P

    That feeling when you get ganked 20 vs 1 on the flag spot in NW and burst out that one Berserker's Wrath and everyone cept 2 lucky ppl is dead from the enemy nation...(no doubt that only was possible cuz the majority of them enemies have been G16 and below characters xDDD with 20 r9s...well I would be dead in seconds...or how long does invoke last again? xDDD)

    Barbs changed for good. Accept the change already ppl. It doesn't matter what class you play and what kind of setup you are rolling for that specific class. As long as you know what you can and what you can't do, it's perfectly fine. Just know that the old aggro skills are something that is more or less just a relic of former glorious times of PWI. Let them go. It's not always very pleasing to wait for the tank to built up aggro. That's time consuming and annoying. If there is no other way, fine then it's gotta be like that. But I for one prefer the fast way.
    My Barb:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#146464

    My SB:
    mypers.pw/1.8/#141476
  • bannokmak
    bannokmak Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Options
    Demon thought they are superior because of Crit issue. About aps it's diminishing all along since game changed but it's still useful for faming TT and no life.(which is useless compare to auto bot x10).

    For that Crit it doesn't mean sage can't have but just less crit. Sage can rise their crit by gears (NW ornament/R9rrweap/Tome) but still inferior than Demon because of their BO 35-40% crit boost. Yes demon can boost crit easy way but sage hard way which depends on their gears. But Sage still have crit 35-40% base with low 60Dex which include endgame gears and passive primal crit.

    But Demon will never have spike damage like sage have. and survival ability with 10%HP which is a big deal at end game +12 and passive defense and Chi Transform which demon will never stand out how it's useful now a day. Demon BKI useful for party but inferior compare to sage chi transform when alone. But who care about Demon BKI for chi? sicne NH come out many class can make chi really easy if you ask wizzard/cleric. Only demon guy can talk --> Crit/Aps ....

    My personal about demon and sage with end game gear today. ----> sage.
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Options
    bannokmak wrote: »
    Demon thought they are superior because of Crit issue. About aps it's diminishing all along since game changed but it's still useful for faming TT and no life.(which is useless compare to auto bot x10).

    For that Crit it doesn't mean sage can't have but just less crit. Sage can rise their crit by gears (NW ornament/R9rrweap/Tome) but still inferior than Demon because of their BO 35-40% crit boost. Yes demon can boost crit easy way but sage hard way which depends on their gears. But Sage still have crit 35-40% base with low 60Dex which include endgame gears and passive primal crit.

    But Demon will never have spike damage like sage have. and survival ability with 10%HP which is a big deal at end game +12 and passive defense and Chi Transform which demon will never stand out how it's useful now a day. Demon BKI useful for party but inferior compare to sage chi transform when alone. But who care about Demon BKI for chi? sicne NH come out many class can make chi really easy if you ask wizzard/cleric. Only demon guy can talk --> Crit/Aps ....

    My personal about demon and sage with end game gear today. ----> sage.

    Surely you have a lot of end game barbs right ? b:chuckle

    10% HP = 6% HP because it is the difference between 170% base and 180% base. And it doesnt matter if your +12 or +2, 6% is 6%. 6% is nice but not that awesome. What you are trying to say is that 24%+ damage output for demons is insignificant, but 6% health is everything. Oh common.....

    BTW, what spike dmg do we really lack ? Are you talking about a vit sage barb that lucks on a zerk crit arma ? Very situational, not all that practical, and more about vit vs str than demon vs sage.

    Botting x10 is illegal btw. And no end game farming is not inferior to botting x10. I dont bot because it is not even worth the time clearing my inventory and sending my toon to a location. Farming for up to 20m per hour (double when its x2 and nope, not talking TT) or selling TM lunar is more convenient. (neither is APS barb exclusive, just saying no to those who think illegal botting is the best way to become rich)
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.

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