Why demon barbs are superior to sage barbs?

overcomem

nah I don't aps for PVP. DPH only b:chuckle

in PVE aps not reliable much since many boss have anti aps and i'm only need aps for farming TT. (already stop farming TT becasue of Botting b:angry)

Yes with 5aps sage with TT99 but still effective on farming TT even doing less damage without +100 str. 25 defense LV but sage spark reduce damge 25% and can solo boss fine with sage penetrate armor.

and you used to try pure str sage barb? spike damage that makes charme bypass easy. and sorry I'm not end game here I'm just R9rr +10 standard in pwi -snip-

opkossy

I said strengths, as is what they're good at. Not about the build itself. b:chuckle


Have both a sage and demon with about the same gear to muck around on, so yeah. Really can't argue about 5 APS base sage as a point when demon does the whole APS thing much better. You'd have to pick a strength sage barbs have over demons instead.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Ye, i have seen some arguments.

-more speed/HP/Pdef in tiger. The differences are small, but theres 3 of them and that is indeed a sage strength.
-getting chi for changing shape. That is a strength too, espescially because i should change shape way more than i do, it would probably improve me as a player. b:pleased (often have the habbit to just hit holy path while staying in human instead)




APS is a demon strength.
charm bypassing is a demon strength.

opkossy

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

APS is a demon strength.

Funnily enough, this applies to both offense and defense.

Offensively, demon has the better compatibility with skills/gear for APSing.
Defensively.... Demon. Roar. 'Nuff said. b:dirty

Joe - Morai

Well...kinda like someone screamed for me to make a post here (:

Sage Barbs got closer to demon barbs since the NH-Update. I especially find it very unfair that the sage primal Bestial Onslaught now never missed like the old one but got the 0,2 Channel time add as well...but oh well talking about Stomp of the beast kind...well it's kinda the same CD-wise just as a pro for the demons there.

I still say that primal demon Bestial Onslaught and Stomp of the beast king take the cake and are the main reason why DEMON Barbs are superior to sage Barbs. Also in the current meta one shouldn't underestimate poison fang. One hell of a OP skill if you ask me especially the demon version (since more DMG). I would add Sunder for PvE as well especially since the primal version is faster and it is now possible to chain 2 skills after it that will always crit anything. KInda neat if you ask me. Have I mentioned demon blood bath already? Ya I'm a accuracy fanatic. the more the better.

the pros of sage are very overlookable. They kinda only have like passive pros. Not so much on the skill effect side. Sure they got more chi and all but honestly. I cant complain about having any chi issues. Even while fighting I mostly just use BKI when being immobilized and all.

All in all Ijs that demon barbs got a bit more versatility then sage barbs but especially since the NH update it kinda floats into personal preference while being a PvP-player. In PvE and especially PvE-Endgame demon is superior on any terms.

overcomem

if you think that is 10% HP boost in Tiger is small. Yes you will see +12 gears in sage tiger that boost HP very very samll. )

and Primal Passive skill that boost up sage defense very very small (LV10 passive coming soon LOL)

and hey with primal version Sage Bestial Onslaught super fast channel and NEVER MISS --> plus 100%Crit on stomp of beast king. We have no worry about dex class with 900 Dex LOL. for caster--> Mighty Swing + Penetrate + SageBO +Sage stomp ..easy dead.

oh yes about chi transform 20chi/ 2secs oh i forgot about Master Li 50 chi. We would say we can make chi 0 -> Max in 36 seconds and no cost mana like LOL and yo we don't need to stop and "hey you hang on a min let me making chi buff buff .. buff". We just run around and full chi or just go fight for chib:laugh . In NW I always have full spark ready every 40 secs and Love to use it everytime.

and if you think you fight in your human form 95% of the time and said tiger form skill is useless I don't know how to say just b:laugh

oh one thing i forgot about sage spark... 25% reduce damage taken + solid sheild (str genie) LoL that reduce damage up to 75% that is a great defense. we can tank people easy when invoke just cooldown. oh hey sage spark not just for defense but boost up damage in the same time and we have full spark any time any day any place and any situation )

Everything I said above that prove Demon superior than Sage barb b:thanks

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

overcomem wrote: »

if you think that is 10% HP boost in Tiger is small. Yes you will see +12 gears in sage tiger that boost HP very very samll. )

and Primal Passive skill that boost up sage defense very very small (LV10 passive coming soon LOL) Both sage and demon can acquire defense passives, and those passive have demenishing returns as you level them. They actually benefit demon more than sage because of that.

and hey with primal version Sage Bestial Onslaught super fast channel and NEVER MISS --> plus 100%Crit on stomp of beast king. We have no worry about dex class with 900 Dex LOL. for caster--> Mighty Swing + Penetrate + SageBO +Sage stomp ..easy dead.Easier combo. Devour>mire>Demon Bestial>Ancestral rage.

oh yes about chi transform 20chi/ 2secs oh i forgot about Master Li 50 chi. We would say we can make chi 0 -> Max in 36 seconds and no cost mana like LOL and yo we don't need to stop and "hey you hang on a min let me making chi buff buff .. buff". We just run around and full chi or just go fight for chib:laugh . In NW I always have full spark ready every 40 secs and Love to use it everytime.Even with Master Li's technique, Demons fill up on chi about the same time as you do, only thing is they are less vulnerable in human than sage barbs imo.

and if you think you fight in your human form 95% of the time and said tiger form skill is useless I don't know how to say just b:laughThis is a lie. No one said this.

oh one thing i forgot about sage spark... 25% reduce damage taken + solid sheild (str genie) LoL that reduce damage up to 75% that is a great defense. we can tank people easy when invoke just cooldown. oh hey sage spark not just for defense but boost up damage in the same time and we have full spark any time any day any place and any situation )You do realize that you gimp your solid sheild by over lapping it with sage spark right? Do you even know how damage calculation works? Sage spark reduces the damage, then that damage is reduced by solid sheild. It's not a flat 75% when you stack them.

Everything I said above that prove Demon superior than Sage barb b:thanks

Was this post sarcasm or troll. I honestly can't tell.

Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Was this post sarcasm or troll. I honestly can't tell.

It started as sarcasm, but soon became sage worshipping(which itself ish trolling). Fail troll ish fail, or just religiously sage o,o

Colum - Raging Tide

Easier combo. Devour>mire>Demon Bestial>Ancestral rage.

Marry me. b:dirty

overcomem

Sorry I don't believe you about sage spark can't stack with solid shield. I play sage and all the time my invoke cooldown I always tank 8-10 guys R9rr caster +10+12 weap with sage spark + solid shield just really easy tank. Just only solid shield you won't servive long enough when got gang with R9rr standard +10-12 but when combine with sage spark it's a different story. If you don't have sage barb hardcore play tank style you will never know how is useful in PVP.

Even in PV100+ I never use invoke at the end of the road I pull at start to the end Spark + Solid sheild and then kill. My HP even not decrease like go to down hill, it's very smooth run without BP tho. I can tell only sage spark just boost up defense but when combine with solid shield I can see it's a different story.

And primal passive no prove to say demon barb get benefit than sage. Even great demon barb from RT has said in this forum already.

and hey I just log in a game on RT I just saw 2 demon barbs R9rr full vit shards +10 switch to sage already sorry I can't tell their name it's pwi rule (but his name is apparently about demon barb LOL) but you will see them in your server Colum. b:chuckle

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

When they are close to you, a demon barb is a lot more deadly, no question about that. Way more crit, usually more damage (though sage still has the highest spike, they reach the spike way less often).

However, there is an interesting difference in how sage and demon barbs gain chi.

A demon barb spams beast kings inspiration. They get 30 chi each time, and the cooldown of beast king's inspiration is 3 seconds, so this works out to 10 chi per second.

A sage barb switches from human form to tiger form. The cooldown of the switch is 2 seconds, and they get 20 chi each time, therefore they get 10 chi per second as well.

This is all good in theory if this were the only possible way to gain chi on a barb under any given circumstance, but isn't entirely accurate.

The big difference, however, is mobility. When a demon barb wants to get their chi back with beast kings, they have to stay planted in one spot, in human form, and they have to furthermore channel and cast a skill. This makes them highly vulnerable to attack!

However, a sage barbarian who wants to gain chi can easily outpace most classes while still getting that chi back. For example, if a sage barb is in a vulnerable state where they've run out of chi and their genie is gone, they don't have to stand in human form, they can run about 40 meters away from the enemy and keep switching forms, gaining the same amount of chi as the demon but without the same vulnerability.

Because of the vulnerability to standing and spamming beast king's inspiration, demon barbs I think don't usually have as much chi to operate with as a sage barb. Sage skills in general use less chi, and sages in general gain chi more often (think of all the times that barbs naturally switch forms, to say, devour > switch > stun, where a sage is getting chi each time but a demon isn't).

Because a sage barb has more chi, they can spend it a little more freely too. More triple sparks, more armas, more invokes.

True, a sage barbarian does move faster than a demon one does and can escape from danger more easily if not already CC'd. But even on a demon barbarian, given the opportunity to escape to safety - a shadowbinder will boost to max speed without risk of being stunned where a demon could spam BKI to gain spark back if needed. However, I myself dont often run into this scenario when faced off with equivalently geared opponents (and even some who out gear me) due to using Bestial Rage during fights and utilizing slam as part of my attacks. Demon slam generates quite a nice bit of chi, as does untamed wrath which is used as part of the bread and butter barb-stun-lock combo. So while a sage might be using auto attacks or skills that gain low amounts of chi in PVP (maybe form-swapping for chi), a demon barbarian is using slam to gain an extra 18 chi (35 chi per slam) every 8 seconds which keeps them quite well filled and actually ready for their invokes, sunders, and armageddons more often while staying toe-to-toe with the opponent.

Arma. Yes, demon arma hits a bit harder than sage, we've already established that. But sage arma is way safer. If a demon does arma while an opponent is attacking, they are guaranteed a charm tick where the sage may be able to avoid a charm tick. If the barb's charm had ticked just before arma, demon arma makes barb quite a bit closer to death than the sage.

using armageddon with cornered beast active is relatively safe IMO. if for some reason you're dead within a couple seconds of using it, not giving you time to invoke if your CB ticked - arma was probably not the wisest choice in the first place, save as a last ditch effort to take out some opponents while being ganked. That said, there are ways to overcome the risk of a 50% hp loss of armageddon in PVP. One way is with pan gu essence. Even with a charm tick, the pan gu buys time for charm cool down. Or use a VT -> ironguard. For best results, a purposeful ToP charged charm tick to max ToP HP is sometimes actually desired. Using the aforementioned strategies, this is a fairly safe maneuver as the APO buys your charm time to cool down.

And finally: the slightly better hp and defenses for sage barb means they can use their genie slightly more offensively than a demon barb. Whereas a demon barb may be forced to use their genie defensively bit more often, sage barb may be able to throw out occult ice or mire a bit more readily.

Just some thoughts as to why sage barb isn't really that much worse than demon for pvp.

as a demon vit barb, i honestly find myself using Occult Ice and Mire quite commonly in PVP. Mire not quite so much so unless I'm ready to land a kill shot, but Ice for sure as on my particular genie build, it has a higher stun rate than demon MS - which already stuns a lot. I honestly feel like given any equally geared opponent - I'll come out on top most if not all of the time.

Even in PV100+ I never use invoke at the end of the road I pull at start to the end Spark + Solid sheild and then kill. My HP even not decrease like go to down hill, it's very smooth run without BP tho. I can tell only sage spark just boost up defense but when combine with solid shield I can see it's a different story.

As demon.. I pull mobs -> devour boss -> bestial rage -> solid shield -> mire -> demon sunder -> demon arma. mobs are all dead and boss is about half dead.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

overcomem wrote: »

Sorry I don't believe you about sage spark can't stack with solid shield.

I have an idea what they meant but it would be fairly dumb idea and as such will assume they meant something else. But different icon so they do stack and I would love to hear the idea behind not stacking comment.

overcomem

One thing that is a different about chi. Sage they don't need to hit an opponent for chi cause of sage chi tranform. It's really OP when sage have full spark ready anytime. more spark, more invoke, more defense, more damage. True story is sage spark is useful than demon now a day in pvp/pve. No aps issue, game has changed just keep that aps for TT.

For demon they need to hit an opponent to get chi like demon slam 35 chi you said but it's melee skill so you need to get close your enemy like range class and your enemy won't let you spam that skill all the time. And damage from slam is less than other upgrade skill from Primal like Stomp of the beast king which more damage plus amp, fast channel and 3 seconds cooldown compare 8 secs slam. Yes in mass PVP like NW with crowded people there I may use my Slam but barely use 1on1 enemy.

BKI during battle but that is just not safe when you spam BKI during a fight your opponent can kill you anytime let's say in mass pvp psy, archer,wizzard, mystic, cleric, even sin can stun lock and seal you to dead during you go to human form for BKI buff. It really not safe just stand all around enemy that hit you. For example in TW as a cata barb, my friend demon barb cata barb that day with me when he used invoke he stand up and try to BKI and he not even can spam BKI cause of stun,seal,sleep. But for me I lost 2 sparks for invoke I just stand up and use master li 50 chi and went to tiger form again I already have 3 spark to use with my solid shield again. Gain chi fast that will save a life.

Baalbak - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As demon.. I pull mobs -> devour boss -> bestial rage -> solid shield -> mire -> demon sunder -> demon arma. mobs are all dead and boss is about half dead.

As sage with R9rr +10 standard gear and weap in PV100+

pull mobs to the end -> spark -> solid shield -> bestial rage -> slam -> armar -> all mobs dead and boss is close to dead even not using mire,TOP or sunder I just 3 spark and kill all in sudden.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

I have an idea what they meant but it would be fairly dumb idea and as such will assume they meant something else. But different icon so they do stack and I would love to hear the idea behind not stacking.

PWI logic must have 2 icons that show for stack? No..

If you never try by yourself you will never know what it is. But I guess you're not hardcore right? If you are then show something else better? Oh I forgot your spark is aps so you will never know.

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

overcomem wrote: »

One thing that is a different about chi. Sage they don't need to hit an opponent for chi cause of sage chi tranform. It's really OP when sage have full spark ready anytime. more spark, more invoke, more defense, more damage. True story is sage spark is useful than demon now a day in pvp/pve. No aps issue, game has changed just keep that aps for TT.

I'm not aps build. I tried it for a while farming TT, but since then I went back to vit. First rebirth I tried out pure str demon build and it was alright, but then for second rebirth I went back to vit yet again.

For demon they need to hit an opponent to get chi like demon slam 35 chi you said but it's melee skill so you need to get close your enemy and your enemy won't let you spam that skill all the time. And damage from slam is less than other upgrade skill from Primal like Stomp of the beast king which more damage plus amp and 3 seconds cooldown compare 8 secs slam. Yes in mass PVP like NW with crowded people there I may use my Slam but barely use 1on1 enemy.

You mention chi gain from transform, but in order to get that chi gain, you have to be actually swapping forms. While swapping forms, you're not actually doing any damage to anything and just taking damage. Now when it comes to lets say fighting an archer for example you may run up in tiger, alacrity (immobilize) devour (debuff) standup (chi gain) mighty swing (stun) onslaught (evasion debuff) stomp, untamed wrath (stun), clean sweep (try for purge), mighty swing (stun) stomp. then the archer begins to move away so you anti stun, go to tiger (chi gain) and repeat the cycle basically. If you're doing anything other than that while fighting someone (ie going tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger to gain chi..) you're not actually hitting them. Demon barb can throw a slam there in place of stomp for example for chi gain, once the opponent is locked down - and with OI to extend a stun lock there is even more opportunity. Case in point, ive fought a seeker before who thought for sure I was using apo against them (I was uncharmed during the fight) because I triple sparked and then almost as soon as that spark was over, I had another spark ready. This was all demon slam and bestial rage chi gain off of his attacks. When my hp was low and he used metal skills.. he did 15 damage on me and cried again that i was using apo, but the damage reduction was all on part of bestial rage.

BKI during battle but that is just not safe when you spam BKI during a fight your opponent can kill you anytime let's say in mass pvp psy, archer,wizzard, mystic, cleric, even sin can stun lock and seal you to dead during you go to human form for BKI buff. It really not safe just stand all around enemy that hit you. For example in TW as a cata barb, my friend demon barb cata barb that day with me when he used invoke he stand up and try to BKI and he not even can spam BKI cause of stun,seal,sleep. But for me I lost 2 sparks for invoke I just stand up and use master li 50 chi and went to tiger form again I already have 3 spark to use with my solid shield again. Gain chi fast that will save a life.

I dont stand up ever when pulling a cata, and honestly if you stood up to use master li.. lol. you can use that skill in tiger form from what i understand. swapping to humanoid to do that was pointless. If i have to invoke, it means im taking damage. If im taking damage, that means that bestial rage will gain me chi - so that is what I use for chi gain under heavy fire. Sins and BMs on me in TW/NW - demon roar knocks most of em out unless they have the reaction time and gear to stop attacking or pan gu/domain against it.

As sage with R9rr +10 standard gear and weap in PV100+

pull mobs to the end -> spark -> bestial rage -> slam -> armar -> all mobs dead and boss is close to dead even not using mire,TOP or sunder I just 3 spark and kill all in sudden.

since when is r9rr +10 standard gear o.0? any rate.. I'm g16 +7 max refine, so I lack the attack levels and GOF you have. But personally I would, if I were you use arma first followed by slam, unless the slam is just to gain heals from BP before you arma..

overcomem

Baalbak - Dreamweaver wrote: »

since when is r9rr +10 standard gear o.0? any rate.. I'm g16 +7 max refine, so I lack the attack levels and GOF you have. But personally I would, if I were you use arma first followed by slam, unless the slam is just to gain heals from BP before you arma..

Nah I mean my standard endgame gear I got atm. I have a reason to use slam first before arma just save my repair cost b:chuckle

Yes with G16 +7 you lack GoF but still have attack LV. Every sage barb can kill mobs all of sudden too but just a different style.

As your post um I don't know what I should go on to discuss ... I don't use switch form for just gain chi only but I use it when I want to use some skill I want in that form and side benefit it gives chi ... and yes I didn't forget about bestial rage for chi. Sorry I think I will stop to go on this forum because we just have a different play style. It just you have your style I have my play style so this discussion will never end so just be happy with a different play style then.

I will leave this barb forum to demon fanclub b:chuckle

Joe - Morai

I am aps built but happen to be @760 STR currently (just a pan gu tho). the last time I rolled PV it was like...well devour on boss -> sunder -> all cept the boss have been dead. If there would be some leftovers then a (still all critting) slam would destroy them.

Demon power ijs.

For PvP ~3 sparks. Roam around in tiger form. If you see a close opponent just Ice it. Then use devour -> sunder -> Ancestral rage and believe me...that combo kills. Even if not you would still have time to switch and Swing your enemy.

Demon Onslaught and Sunder are the killer features of a Demon barb and nothing compares to them. The moment I got my emperor I will be at 80% crit nearly all the time. Thats above Sins and Archers in most cases. While being in Demon Bloodbath I also have ~11k Accu.

PS: I never lost to anyone with just equal or lower gears and I guess I won't ever. But on the other hand...it doesn't matter for me if its sage or demon as long as you got some dex and max possible str =P DMG FTW.

PSS: Sage only got a bit closer to demons because of the NH-Update and the unfair Barb Form fiasco...but oh well. I would have like that 90% speed increase in Demon Tiger form at least. But on the other hand 80% friggin crit. (:

WannaBM - Archosaur

Easier combo. Devour>mire>Demon Bestial>Ancestral rage.

3spark-mire-demon onslought-ancestral rage.

3spark-mire-demon onslought-cloud eruption-berserkers wrath.

Both cases no need to get near the enemy.

Did the last one after finishing my last FW, killed the whole squad with that berserkers rage except one. And they surely werent weaklings

The first one may cost 4 sparks (onslought gives just that bit of chi you are short of 4 sparks with full chi) But notice that ancestral rage does 200% dmg by itself (it is our strongest attack and has a good range too) the dmg will be doubled by spark and it will be doubled by crit. That is one 800% attack. 1600% if it zerks. You need to be truely tough to survive that. (Many people (G16s, weaker R9 casters) are already one-shot by the sparked onslought actually and you never get to cast the ancestral rage)

bannokmak

Why demon barbs always make a thread to compare to sage barbs?

Or you guys demon just jelly on sage barb??

YES demon always better than sage so don't need to make a thread like this. If you think sage barbs suck so just leave them suck. b:chuckle

duckling1977

lmao demon barbs are better i was in west and seen a r9rr+12 demon barb get 1 shot by a psy and them same psy hit a sage barb and ya not a 1 hit so take your demon barb and go pve ijs lmao and to say that hit harder you must be a bigger idot then i thought some skills may but it seem a sage barb always wins on the hit test so idk what about but just my thoughtsb:shutup

WannaBM - Archosaur

duckling1977 wrote: »

lmao demon barbs are better i was in west and seen a r9rr+12 demon barb get 1 shot by a psy and them same psy hit a sage barb and ya not a 1 hit so take your demon barb and go pve ijs lmao and to say that hit harder you must be a bigger idot then i thought some skills may but it seem a sage barb always wins on the hit test so idk what about but just my thoughtsb:shutup

Yay, is that how smart you are ?

overcomem

bannokmak wrote: »

Why demon barbs always make a thread to compare to sage barbs?

Or you guys demon just jelly on sage barb??

YES demon always better than sage so don't need to make a thread like this. If you think sage barbs suck so just leave them suck. b:chuckle

Trolling?? oh hey well.. if you are a sage barb better to leave from this topic because here are demons fanclub b:byeb:chuckle

Colum - Raging Tide

bannokmak wrote: »

Why demon barbs always make a thread to compare to sage barbs?

Or you guys demon just jelly on sage barb??

YES demon always better than sage so don't need to make a thread like this. If you think sage barbs suck so just leave them suck. b:chuckle

Probably because we get told off by ignorant people.

Many people seem to live in the misbelief that sage BKI would give more HP when buffed, for example.

overcomem

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

Probably because we get told off by ignorant people.

Many people seem to live in the misbelief that sage BKI would give more HP when buffed, for example.

This is some point why demon barb going rage b:chuckle

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

Probably because we get told off by ignorant people.

Many people seem to live in the misbelief that sage BKI would give more HP when buffed, for example.

I have never seen anyone make that assumption before in all the time i've played so far.

WannaBM - Archosaur

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I have never seen anyone make that assumption before in all the time i've played so far.

Then you are probably posting from your main and you are indeed level 5 lol. It is similar to sage BP, many people think only demon BP lasts 60 minutes and sage lasts 30. You probably have never seen anyone make that assumption too. Believe me though, it is widespread.

Socqar - Lost City

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Then you are probably posting from your main and you are indeed level 5 lol. It is similar to sage BP, many people think only demon BP lasts 60 minutes and sage lasts 30. You probably have never seen anyone make that assumption too. Believe me though, it is widespread.

I'm r9r +10 atm... and since like 6 months ago I did actually believe this, until I made my barb and rofl about my stupidness just lasts longer, I got it now. Not that standard newbie but hey, I had this misconception

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I have never seen anyone make that assumption before in all the time i've played so far.

Sincerely I yet don't know for sure the real diffrence between sage/demon bp appart from the extra healing on sage. NO clue about real duration or anything (couldn't care less, as I have a demon sin + demon ea, so I either self-buff regularly or I can't get buffed xD)

So yep, people usually ignores this kind of class-specific stuff unless it's pvp-related skills (I can sing to you how long do sin's battle buffs last, but I have absolutely no clue on how long does bp last)

Haroin - Raging Tide

Socqar - Lost City wrote: »

Sincerely I yet don't know for sure the real diffrence between sage/demon bp appart from the extra healing on sage. NO clue about real duration or anything (couldn't care less, as I have a demon sin + demon ea, so I either self-buff regularly or I can't get buffed xD)

Both last as long(1 hour) and the only difference indeed ish that Sage BP gives that nice 3% damage done healed-effect while demon BP gives 50% more evasion for whole 18 secs(sounds OP, rite?) and the normal 2% heals.

So, in practise Sage BP heals 1,5x moar than lvl 10 or demon BP, and demon BP only differs from lvl 10 BP by lasting twice as long.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

I have an idea what they meant but it would be fairly dumb idea and as such will assume they meant something else. But different icon so they do stack and I would love to hear the idea behind not stacking comment.

I should have stated that more as an inquiry rather than a statement. My mistake.

I was saying that I don't think solid sheild stacks with invoke in the way people think it does.

My questions are: Is solid sheild effects applied before or after sage spark? And if neither, is the damage reduction stacked?

It has more to do with filters.

Scenario 1: Damage Incoming>Solid sheild (-50%)>Bless reduction (-25%)>Damage taken.

Scenario 2: Damage Incoming>Bless reduction (-25%)>Solid sheild (-50%)>Damage taken.

Scenario 3: Damage Incoming>Bless reduction+Solid sheild (-75%)>Damage taken.

Scenario 3, is the stacking scenario, the other two would indicate they do not, so I would like to know if one is applied above the other, which would result in deminishing returns when using both.

I hope that explains my statement.

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

Marry me. b:dirty

o.0.

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I have never seen anyone make that assumption before in all the time i've played so far.

In my time on DW while playing my demon barb, it is constantly made. People also don't seem to notice the chi gaining effects.

Haroin - Raging Tide

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I should have stated that more as an inquiry rather than a statement. My mistake.

I was saying that I don't think solid sheild stacks with invoke in the way people think it does.

My questions are: Is solid sheild effects applied before or after sage spark? And if neither, is the damage reduction stacked?

It has more to do with filters.

Scenario 1: Damage Incoming>Solid sheild (-50%)>Bless reduction (-25%)>Damage taken.

Scenario 2: Damage Incoming>Bless reduction (-25%)>Solid sheild (-50%)>Damage taken.

Scenario 3: Damage Incoming>Bless reduction+Solid sheild (-75%)>Damage taken.

Scenario 3, is the stacking scenario, the other two would indicate they do not, so I would like to know if one is applied above the other, which would result in deminishing returns when using both.

I hope that explains my statement.

Kitty made some research and Invoke, Solid Shield and sage spark all stack together. BUT, BB overwrites sage spark's damage reduction.

Kitty's yet to test how the damage reduction stacking ish calculated, but as a hypothesis Kitty assumes they multiply each other as 0,5*0,75*0,1(SS+Sage Spark+Invoke) resulting in 3,75% of incoming damage taken. If demon barb stacked Solid Shield and Invoke in a similar way, it would result in 5% of incoming damage taken if Kitty's hypothesis ish correct.

The reason why Kitty thinks the damage reduction ish calculated exponentially ish that if Solid Shield and Invoke was calculated cumulatively, it would result in -40% incoming damage taken(in other words, incoming damage would heal).

When speaking of this low damage taken 25% difference in such a low damage shouldn't really matter anymore o,o

LucKaS_SiX - Harshlands

So, after forcing myself thru 9 pages of demon barbs stroking their own egos, I have decided that demon still isn't really any better than sage is. Almost every post in this thread promotes the sunder > blah > blah > blah > arma combo as the "end all" "be all" "holy grail" of tanking, and the whole time I'm sitting here thinking "wow, demon barbs really have to do a lot of hard work to keep agro from the dd's" b:chuckle. I have zero problems keeping agro on my sage barb, and the people that do steal agro either 1) tank the mobs easily with cleric heals or 2) deserve to die because they lack the survivability to do just that... survive! (damage output is irrelavent if you can't stay alive to hit things, sorry).

There has also been a constant argument about chi gain, which after playing a sage and demon, I feel the sage has an easier time of it. On my sage I can just sit there and spam FR, alacrity and devour while keeping bestial rage in cd and I stay full of chi. On my demon, even with BR constantly in cd I still find myself scrambling to make sure I have enough chi to tank. "OMG, why do you think that is?" I'll tell you. Sage FR has a reduced chi cost, sage devour has a 25% chance to gain 35 chi, and sage BR lasts longer so there is less time where I'm only gaining chi from auto attack between skills and alacrity.

As far as damage out-put, and the crit rates that demon barbs hail as the thing makes sage barbs fail, all I can say is "meh". The crit rate increase from bestial onslaught only lasts for 6 seconds, so unless you're popping a vac or using violent triumph (which will use another 50 chi you may or may not have to spare) before hand any bm or sin can stun lock you for many more than 6 seconds. Also, before you all say "but sunder makes all hits....." the same applies to your beloved sunder combo as well. So after all that work, your crit bonus is gone...all that chi wasted on sunder for nothing...what a shame. The only viable one of the 2 options above is bestial onslaught since it's not dependent on chi, or even hitting the target for that matter. But again, this is dependent on that you either 1) have your target stunned while you go thru your "super-duper" combo, or 2) you're battling a moron that doesnt doesnt know how to stun. Also, I find it very important to point out that when you aren't receiving all these "super awesome omg" crit bonuses from your skills, your damage out-put is just well....meh, not any better than mine as a sage. b:pleased

And last, but certainly not least amoung the points listed above. I find it infinitely important to point out the fact that raging tide, dreamweaver and archosour (which are the servers where most of you reside) are all PVE servers, not PVP servers so you're"pvp" experience is probably limited to tw and nw and you wouldn't know that the reflect from demon roar doesn't work in world pvp. In the case of pve, with 55k pdef and 17k mdef I'd rather have the decreased m atk from sage roar and take SoV from a psy or bramble from a veno. b:laugh