Why demon barbs are superior to sage barbs?

WannaBM - Archosaur

slamstone wrote: »

oops, i think that was just a difference of views. but i get what you're saying.

From my point of view, ok you cast the 3 skills and replenish the chi, but there's nothing stopping you from 3-2-1 sparking and thus amping the non chi skills in a 20 sec br. I guess it all depends on the "toughness of mobs".

What i was trying to say is that the 20 secs gives more space to maneuver and the difference between 6 and 8 chi (when multiple targets) is not that big to cover a double duration.(more if the mobs cc from time to time).

Its not double duration. Its 15 vs 20 seconds.

Even sparking fits into that 15 seconds as well as the other skills.

If you do pulls in SOT or second map lunar non-BH, the mobs are tough enough that you are not going to pull dozens, but probably just 1 dozen. More chi = beter. Theres also places where there simply arent any that many mobs available.

elfentle

i would not say Demons are better then Sage flat out right.

Sage barbarians have much better defence and survivability
and too right!!!! they need it

Demon barbs just don't need the same level of defence as everything just dies vs them.

Colum - Raging Tide

I don't feel like needing any more defense for PVE and I'm demon. That point stands even when things are not dying fast. Am I doing something wrong? b:surrender

WannaBM - Archosaur

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

I don't feel like needing any more defense for PVE and I'm demon. That point stands even when things are not dying fast. Am I doing something wrong? b:surrender

You tried pulling TM lunar map 2 & 3 yet ? b:laugh

Beleni - Dreamweaver

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

You tried pulling TM lunar map 2 & 3 yet ? b:laugh

They are pullable, just have to know where to stop and what mobs to avoid and or stun to prevent them from causing excessive damage.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Beleni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

They are pullable, just have to know where to stop and what mobs to avoid and or stun to prevent them from causing excessive damage.

I know, i been practicing the last 2 weeks with my BM buddy and ready to sell TM now

But surely the mobs dying fast is key b:laugh

Beleni - Dreamweaver

i can see how the pulls would work with barb BM duo on TM lunar.

If the BM doesnt stun or waiits to stun, but would that mix really have the dps to kill the last 2 boss' in a reasonable time?

WannaBM - Archosaur

HF-sunder-arma - clean up the extra life/def with aps.

Bosses go perfectly fine with 2 APSers and HF of course.

Atropah - Sanctuary

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I know, i been practicing the last 2 weeks with my BM buddy and ready to sell TM now

I actually have an easier time pulling lunar (trophy and regular) on my bm than barb. Mag marrow and anti-stun make a huge difference.

Have him Mag Marrow, then Cloud Sprint (lasts 15 seconds) then immediately start Blade Tornadoing and pulling. This will make him unstunable for 12 seconds. You can't use skills while BTing so just key smash Will of Bodhisattva so that it goes up right as BT dies. This extends your sprint+antistun for a total of 27 seconds and doesn't use any apoths or genie. A mag marrow in the middle once or twice will return you to 3+ sparks. Near the end of your anti stun Holy Path ahead and you can do the full instance in one pull, but make sure to aim yourself so that a Leap Back will put you in DDing range, as well as group most the mobs. It also helps you avoid damage. I usually Fissure->RotP to allow the squad to catch up,setup, triple spark or cleric bubble or whatever and it heals me fully prior to channeling the stun. It also helps my genie recharge enough from the HP that I can cloud erupt for the GS+HF combo, then GG. Can solo it this way. If you're a bit squishy you can still solo just use a charm or base immunity pot as you leap back.

As for my barb, Sapphire shards made a crazy huge difference when pulling Lunar, and I'd recommend it for PvP also because they reduce more than JoSDs against magic damage.

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide

Atropah - Sanctuary wrote: »

I actually have an easier time pulling lunar (trophy and regular) on my bm than barb. Mag marrow and anti-stun make a huge difference.

Have him Mag Marrow, then Cloud Sprint (lasts 15 seconds) then immediately start Blade Tornadoing and pulling. This will make him unstunable for 12 seconds. You can't use skills while BTing so just key smash Will of Bodhisattva so that it goes up right as BT dies. This extends your sprint+antistun for a total of 27 seconds and doesn't use any apoths or genie. A mag marrow in the middle once or twice will return you to 3+ sparks. Near the end of your anti stun Holy Path ahead and you can do the full instance in one pull, but make sure to aim yourself so that a Leap Back will put you in DDing range, as well as group most the mobs. It also helps you avoid damage. I usually Fissure->RotP to allow the squad to catch up,setup, triple spark or cleric bubble or whatever and it heals me fully prior to channeling the stun. It also helps my genie recharge enough from the HP that I can cloud erupt for the GS+HF combo, then GG. Can solo it this way. If you're a bit squishy you can still solo just use a charm or base immunity pot as you leap back.

As for my barb, Sapphire shards made a crazy huge difference when pulling Lunar, and I'd recommend it for PvP also because they reduce more than JoSDs against magic damage.

What in god's name gear does your BM have that it doesn't get killed in the first barrage of attacks at the end of the pull?

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide wrote: »

What in god's name gear does your BM have that it doesn't get killed in the first barrage of attacks at the end of the pull?

This person, from all of her post i have seen, has some OP geared toons.

Zanryu - Lothranis

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide wrote: »

What in god's name gear does your BM have that it doesn't get killed in the first barrage of attacks at the end of the pull?

What kind of **** BMs have you been running with where you believe dying to the first wave of attacks is the norm?

WannaBM - Archosaur

Yes my BM buddy does the pulling in map 3.

The main reason being that the stunning mobs keep stunning, not just on initial contact and the dont do normal attacks thus not generating me chi. Therefore i need both anti stun and extra chi to do the sunder arma and have almost nothing available for pulling. Invoke is also useless.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

What kind of **** BMs have you been running with where you believe dying to the first wave of attacks is the norm?

Apparently you arent familiar with TM lunar. There are mobs called shoveals that have an aoe pdef reduction similar to that of a demon veno, and there are mobs right next to those that have an aoe physical attack. It can 1 shot some of the tankiest people. I've seen 36k hp barbs go down fast if it's not purified.

Atropah - Sanctuary

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide wrote: »

What in god's name gear does your BM have that it doesn't get killed in the first barrage of attacks at the end of the pull?

For regular (3m entry fee) Lunar I started doing full pulls on my bm with the standard aps set, refined +7-10, with a +10 G15 magic cube neck. I had 6 sapphires and 4 JoSDs in my gear and around 11k base hp. It's pretty much the same gear I use for my barb. Since then my BM has become r9t3, the same G15 mag neck, and primarily vit stone shards around 16k hp and it can be done without ticking a charm. So... tt99/G15 11k hp BMs?

For trophy mode I'll admit I only ever went with my faction and we had some OP players. 25k+ archers, 30k seekers... I did pull but I didn't have to "tank" for long. Since we were after the -67% reduced damage charms for TW that you get from silver trophies we actually had to slow down our runs by about 5 minutes iirc which meant no point in doing huge pulls. We just all kind of grabbed groups and blew things up and met at the end.

My point, and why I added it to a barb thread, was for most lunar sapphire sharding is amazing. Even better than JoSDs for reducing magic damage. More pdef is never a bad thing, and sages might brag about having a bit more, but sharding towards a high mdef build is better. You can make the argument for sages that since they get a few % more hp and pdef that they can dodge vit/josd and go pure sapphire sharding.

WannaBM - Archosaur

You are "a little" off with those shards

Zanryu - Lothranis

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Apparently you arent familiar with TM lunar. There are mobs called shoveals that have an aoe pdef reduction similar to that of a demon veno, and there are mobs right next to those that have an aoe physical attack. It can 1 shot some of the tankiest people. I've seen 36k hp barbs go down fast if it's not purified.

Or am I?

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

somebody noticed the sage imbued tiger/panda form not reduce the dmg ?

Colum - Raging Tide

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

somebody noticed the sage imbued tiger/panda form not reduce the dmg ?

Of course we did. It doesn't make a huge difference nor is the main point why people love demon. At least shouldn't be.

Man - Raging Tide

I disagree Kitty.

The Defense caps were raised from 90% to 95% and that helps sage barbs with their extended pdef masteries.

They received more skills to increase their chi gain (sage true form)

They fixed zerk on sage bestial onslaught

Crit has become much more common, and the more you have of it the returns diminish.

Sage barbs do full damage in true form now

Barbs overall got some new tiger skills, and some very annoying (raging slap)

Last and what i feel is very important, in todays PvP and PvE sage spark dominates Demon. You get so much damage reduction at the cost of something you will be doing anyway.



The one area you could confidently say demon barbs are better at is pk in human form, but when you pk you will be switching forms anyway.

WannaBM - Archosaur

All details.

demon sunder for pve and demon onslaught for pve. Those are not details.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

Man - Raging Tide wrote: »

I disagree Kitty.

The Defense caps were raised from 90% to 95% and that helps sage barbs with their extended pdef masteries.

They received more skills to increase their chi gain (sage true form)

They fixed zerk on sage bestial onslaught

Crit has become much more common, and the more you have of it the returns diminish.

Sage barbs do full damage in true form now

Barbs overall got some new tiger skills, and some very annoying (raging slap)

Last and what i feel is very important, in todays PvP and PvE sage spark dominates Demon. You get so much damage reduction at the cost of something you will be doing anyway.



The one area you could confidently say demon barbs are better at is pk in human form, but when you pk you will be switching forms anyway.

Never forget sage mighty swing reduces CD to 5s. When primal update made said skill pretty much your main skill in PvP, it makes a huge difference imo. It just makes the uptime for CC pretty stupid high.

overcomem

http://i61.tinypic.com/vzd40o.jpg -> 5 benefits in 1

1. more HP

2. more speed

3. more defense passive in tiger form

4. do full damage in tiger form

5. and last thing is really really easy OP chi in battle fight b:victory

http://i58.tinypic.com/wjb95c.jpg -> and this one guarantee 100% crit on stomp and never miss. really useful against dex class b:chuckle

Colum - Raging Tide

I have a sage barb and a demon barb, I'm more satisfied with my demon one, but everyone have their preferences I guess. Sage too boring for me.

WannaBM - Archosaur

overcomem wrote: »

4. do full damage in tiger form

Strange i did indeed recall that once upon a time barbs got less dmg in tiger form. My demon barb doesnt get any reduction in tiger either though. Doesnt matter much though, tiger is for running, fighting i do 95% in human.

opkossy

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Strange i did indeed recall that once upon a time barbs got less dmg in tiger form. My demon barb doesnt get any reduction in tiger either though. Doesnt matter much though, tiger is for running, fighting i do 95% in human.

Sage true form reduces weapon damage by 50% (big deal in the past, doesn't matter now) while demon true form let you deal full damage. But with Panda form sages do full damage too so... yeah... lol

WannaBM - Archosaur

OPKossy wrote: »

Sage true form reduces weapon damage by 50% (big deal in the past, doesn't matter now) while demon true form let you deal full damage. But with Panda form sages do full damage too so... yeah... lol

Oh ye thats what i recall it from, the time back then when i played my boring sage barb. Glad i rectified that error and made myself a demon b:chuckle

overcomem

PWI barb forum it seems to be a demon barb fanclub b:bye

No point to talk if they haven't played sage in a core. They thought sage just tank and meat shield only b:laugh and can't pvp. can't be aps ( try sage 5 aps base ) b:bye

WannaBM - Archosaur

overcomem wrote: »

PWI barb forum it seems to be a demon barb fanclub b:bye

No point to talk if they haven't played sage in a core. They thought sage just tank and meat shield only b:laugh and can't pvp. can't be aps ( try sage 5 aps base ) b:bye

I have played a sage, not pvp no, but i have played it. Have you played a demon strength barb ?

I wont say it cant pvp, in fact i think in pvp my demon preference is much less profound than in pve. Although that may be because of my extensive PvE experience (both demon and sage) and limited PvP experience causing me to better appreciate the PvE aspects than the PvP one. If Joe tells me the PvP advantages for demon are just as big as PvE, i will believe him b:laugh For PvE the difference is just so tremendous. PvE is much about aoeing stuff. Demons sunder arma always crits so they do twice the dmg the sage does. The little extra defensiveness for the sage on the other hand is pretty redundant. As a sage barb you may not even imagine what this means. It means this: You pull metal or fire in warsong and you kill the mobs by yourself in 2 hits. You pull lunar and all you need is a BMs HF to kill the mobs in 2 hits. **** seekers. Demon barbs laugh about seekers and their AOE toys.

For PvP i imagine its more a matter of style. I am an agressive PvPer and to my own detriment not a great team player. I want to rush my enemy and smash his skull asap. Demon onslought (followed by arma, or ancestral rage where possible) is the way to go. Sure sages can kill enemies too, but in generally, their damage potential is much less. I imagine its fun running around trough NW with 60k HP though.

Why sage 5aps base ? that means wearing TT99, G15 and r8r if you can be a demon 5apsing in R9 ? Your sage spark bonus surely wont make up for the difference, not even remotely.

opkossy

overcomem wrote: »

PWI barb forum it seems to be a demon barb fanclub b:bye

No point to talk if they haven't played sage in a core. They thought sage just tank and meat shield only b:laugh and can't pvp. can't be aps ( try sage 5 aps base ) b:bye

Much as I enjoy my sage barb strengths.... 5 APS base for a sage in inferior gear doesn't compare to a demon that can be 4.0 sparked in full R9 third cast or 5.0 if they have the same luck with -int that 5.0 base sages need to pull off a base 5.0.