Why demon barbs are superior to sage barbs?

Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721

At times threads claiming "sage barbs are better than demon barbs 'cause *inferior argument*" pop up and irritated by this Kitty thinks she better post a proper post with logical arguments as a sad attempt to end the dispute. Copy-pasted from a thread where Kitty originally posted most of this(and added something here to complete).


Warning: Following wall of text contains some math to prove demon barb superiority. If you hate math, don't believe in logic or just want to keep your illusion of sage barb superiority, highlight the following text please.

Yush, sage barbs gain 10% more from Strenght of the Titans(countered by demon Poison Fang which digs through p. def.), gain chi from swapping forms(barb with chi issues either needs barb lessons or ish something called a "bad joke") and have slightly more HP and p. def IN Tiggy/Panda form(3% more HP than demon and 8% less p. damage received at fully buffed end-game, won't save from certain death). And sage barbs have more p. attack from A/H-mastery, but ish sadly greatly diminished in effect due to already high gain from weapon attack multipliers. Whereas demons get more crit rate which ish directly increasing the damage multiplier without being diminished by anything else.

3% more DPS from p. attack(Sage) versus 4% more DPS from crit rate(Demon), not even including crit rate boosts demon gets from many skills. Anyone can do the math on these alone.

Demon barb, on the other hand, has crit%-boosts in many skills, most notable example being Sunder which ish usually followed by 100% critting Arma and demon Bestial Onslaught being a massive damage booster by increasing demon barb's crit rate to around 45-55%(and it ish spammable and thus usable in tanking chain).
Demon Bestial Rage recovers more chi per hit(though lasting shorter time) thus allowing strongest skills being used within a spark/invoke without wasting secs for waiting chi to recover.
Demon Titans improves squad's DPS with that 5%-crit boost(which ish useful for casters too, unlike sage Titans which does minimal difference even for melees. 0.1 more to 6.5 isn't much, right?).
Demon BKI gives chi to ALL squadmates in range and thus allowing quick chi regeneration for squad between fights which ish far more useful trait(only exception being using barb as a buff hoe for solo stuff) than sage's long duration. Think about that poor wizzie who ish spamming lvl 10 Frostblade or cleric complaining about "not enough chi".

Demon FR can be used bit more frequently which helps with aggro keeping. To those who don't know how it works: Every Flesh Ream adds 15k damage worth aggro+the damage done with it. For ex. if FR hits 8k, it adds a total of 23k damage worth of aggro.

Demon Roar adds 5k damage worth aggro+damage reflected by 100% Bramble it grants. Bramble ish what makes it keep aggro superiorly compared to sage version which decreases opponents m. attack(which can be countered by refining elem. ornies enough high).
Alacrity of the Beast isn't supposed to be used for damage but for Interrupting. Thus decreased cooldown beats the sad damage boost sages get. And though demon Blood Bath eats more HP for increased accuracy, 1,8% less HP for 23% more accuracy isn't bad trade, right?

And the last major advantage of being a demon barb ish Demon Devour. It lasts longer which gives a chance to spam more other skills between devouring and also far less chi usage by having to use Devour 50% less frequently. Not to mention 15 attack levels-debuff which lasts the whole duration, helping any squishy APSing sin tank far better in case they do massive damage compared to ****-refined armors they tend to use. With sage Devour same things might not be possible.
And if someone else can tank the bosses, that gives barb more time for DDing which usually helps anything go down faster(demon barbs spark a lot and do hellish damage, just like a proper demon).

Any more claims about sage barb being even equal to demon barb will hereby be either claimed by incompetent barbs unless accompanied by correct calculations.

Fissile - Archosaur

That's why all cata barbs are demon right? b:chuckle

Zanryu - Lothranis

ITT: We discuss irrelevant PvE choices.

Demon is the best class choice because it can maintain 5APS easier than Sage.

/thread

Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721

True, these choices are rather irrelevant in PK(excluding demon Bestial Onslaught and Sunder being OP in PK-use too and crit% from mastery+SI making demon even better choice as barbs might need zerk/crit for kill) as majority of PK-oriented skills are Celestial/Morai-100 skills and thus independent of cultivation. Demon ish better for PK too as 'cause aforementioned exceptions and better stun procs

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear

Oh noes, it is 2014, not this thread again b:surrender

People from the dinosaur era has already established that demon has higher damage potential; while sage has higher survival index.

And it is 2014, even the forum looks has changed. Your font colour is still the same

whyarcher88

Lol i thought kittysama uninstalled pwi and quit gameb:chuckle

Zoldi - Morai

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

People from the dinosaur era has already established that demon has higher damage potential; while sage has higher survival index.

^This

The title of the topic means nothing if you don't detail the role that the barb wants to play.

Zanryu - Lothranis

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

^This

The title of the topic means nothing if you don't detail the role that the barb wants to play.

It wants to shoot fireballs.

Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721

whyarcher88 wrote: »

Lol i thought kittysama uninstalled pwi and quit gameb:chuckle

Kitty did delete all her chars and uninstalled the game, but Kitty's still stalking forums at times when she's bored. Just to notice things going worse and worse...

WannaBM - Archosaur

its simple imo:

Catabarb: Sage Vit

PvE barb: Demon APS

PvP barb: Demon strength

I do feel however that the advantages of demon are so humongous (sunder, onslaught, demon spark) that you should really only go sage if you want to be totally dedicated optimized cata barb. If you want to be any bit allround, go demon. These 3 skills are the key and totally shifting the balance. all the other demon sage differences are petty details that pale in comparison. So while i agree with your assesment of demon barbs being in a clear advantage over sage ones, your arguments make me think you never played a barb and only theoryzing on the text.

Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

So while i agree with your assesment of demon barbs being in a clear advantage over sage ones, your arguments make me think you never played a barb and only theoryzing on the text.

Actually Kitty used to have reincarnated 100 pure vit. demon barb(vit. built for maximal Arma-damage on test dummy XD) and being full T3+5 with T2+10 zerk axes Kitty for example outaggro'd every R9rr+10 barb she squaded with and outDPS'd majority of similar-geared ppl(excluding those annoying T3+10 5APS sins, BMs and Colum who ish hax >.<') despite being pure vit. Kitty also did bigger pulls than most R9rr+10 barbs on RT.

Kitty never really PVP'd on it though due to heavy charm costs.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Kittysama - Raging Tide wrote: »

Actually Kitty used to have reincarnated 100 pure vit. demon barb(vit. built for maximal Arma-damage on test dummy XD) and being full T3+5 with T2+10 zerk axes Kitty for example outaggro'd every R9rr+10 barb she squaded with and outDPS'd majority of similar-geared ppl(excluding those annoying T3+10 5APS sins, BMs and Colum who ish hax >.<') despite being pure vit. Kitty also did bigger pulls than most R9rr+10 barbs on RT.

Kitty never really PVP'd on it though due to heavy charm costs.

If you think your vit barb with T2 or T3 axes outdded "EVERY" R9+10 barb, you are delusional or lying. Surely G16 barbs can very well outDD R9 ones if the G16 ones are demon/str and the R9s are vit, but what you say is just... well like saying youre outspeeding every ferrari on your moped. Its impossible

Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

If you think your vit barb with T2 or T3 axes outdded "EVERY" R9+10 barb, you are delusional or lying.

Not saying every single R9rr+10 barb existing, but all those who Kitty squaded with on her barb, in situations where both barbs were doing their best to keep aggro. And Kitty's barb had it about 80% of time, only losing it if other barb managed to get some FRs timed right after Kitty's.

And out-DDing R9rr+10 barbs on RT ish quite easy on RT though as most of them are sages. Poor pandas. The few demons aren't enough skilled to use proper combos(demon Bestial Onslaught ish seriously underrated on RT), usually just auto-attacking and throwing FR every 10 secs if tanking. Most RT-barbs don't devour, simple as that.

slamstone

I really really hoped this forum has lost the red fuzzy 3d person spam....well i guess not all wishes cam come true.

Compared to some other classes (see archer, psy, seeker), here both demon/sage are viable options.

All that "irritating" wall of text is just focused on only 1 thing and that's random nonsense.

Both demon/sage are highly dependent on what build/stat placement go with.

So depending on which path u take one may be better than the other and viceversa.

It's been already discused alot and the conclusion was simple: demon for dmg, sage for survival. I don't get it why u have to dig in it anymore.

Oh well let's see:

"Yush, sage barbs gain 10% more from Strenght of the Titans(countered by demon Poison Fang which digs through p. def.), gain chi from swapping forms(barb with chi issues either needs barb lessons or ish something called a "bad joke") and have slightly more HP and p. def IN Tiggy/Panda form"

Are u talking about squad benefits or solo benefits? u kinda keep mixing them.

If you're talking about teamwork, demon SoT is good for the beginning spark for the added crit, WHEN played with low crit rate squad. that means what? with a squad of mages+sage barbs.

With a squad of high crit chars (sin/bms/archers) sage SoT ads better stats.

Poison fang ad is just for solo, but why are u mixing this into equation? if you're dismantling skills piece by piece stick with the sage/demon benefits not sot+poison fang vs sot. I can go with ah+sot vs your sot+poison fang and u'll come with sot+poison fang+demon crits bonuses, and so on....this won't end up in nothing but a custom situation when this+this+this+this might be better than this+this+this+this in solo and the other in teamplay.

That slightly better pdef... you really don't know what "that end game" barb sage shapeshift ads in terms of pdef right? Sage can easy reach the 90% mark, hell even get very close to that 95% mark.

And sage barbs have more p. attack from A/H-mastery, but ish sadly greatly diminished in effect due to already high gain from weapon attack multipliers. Whereas demons get more crit rate which ish directly increasing the damage multiplier without being diminished by anything else.

Are you talking about dps barbs? dph barbs? str barbs? vit barbs?

Yes, demon barbs get more frequent crit damage, while on the other hand the best spike dmg comes from sage ones even though not frequent as demons have the crit dmg.

So, from my point of view is something like this: demon hits more constant crits and thus more dmg but with less survival (need a bigger time in human form to perform that), while sage can survive more and just wait for that "where did that come from" hit.

Demon barb, on the other hand, has crit%-boosts in many skills, most notable example being Sunder which ish usually followed by 100% critting Arma and demon Bestial Onslaught being a massive damage booster by increasing demon barb's crit rate to around 45-55%(and it ish spammable and thus usable in tanking chain).

Demon Sunder+Arma is situational also. U must be hit by something while having bestial rage on, to work. Any other scenario requires a genie use which easy kills the benefits of ToP+Tangling Arma. Nonetheless sunder+arma+tangling+top kinda makes demons special in instances like LG, WS, GV, Trials, when it comes to brute 1 shot aoe dmg (though this will require a vit build for max efficiency, which not many demons go for).

That bestial onslaught+something has been equalized to a certain degree by the primal skills. For reference see sage bo+stomp of the beast king. Maybe demon bo+top-tang-arma still works good.

For the pvp aspect sunder+arma and bo+arma can be easy interrupted so it actually doesn't work there if the opponent has the slightest clue about whats coming.

Demon Bestial Rage recovers more chi per hit(though lasting shorter time) thus allowing strongest skills being used within a spark/invoke without wasting secs for waiting chi to recover.

Demon is better than sage when used vs bosses while sage is better when more targets hit you. i wont even go further than this.

Demon BKI gives chi to ALL squadmates in range and thus allowing quick chi regeneration for squad between fights which ish far more useful trait(only exception being using barb as a buff hoe for solo stuff) than sage's long duration. Think about that poor wizzie who ish spamming lvl 10 Frostblade or cleric complaining about "not enough chi".

Yes and the squad in any pve/pvp content will say: lets wait here till we get that chi! no rush we need that chi!

Wizzies and chi: you really don't know what wizzies can do with the primal shields no?
For solo: sage [true form-human form] is a constructive way to get chi + Li Technique

Demon FR can be used bit more frequently which helps with aggro keeping. To those who don't know how it works: Every Flesh Ream adds 15k damage worth aggro+the damage done with it. For ex. if FR hits 8k, it adds a total of 23k damage worth of aggro.

I would go here with "FR has a chance to stun" which is way better than a chance to freeze, but each with their own argument.

Although there is a counter argument here, demon FR has a 20% chance for stun, while sage has a 33% chance to freeze (i still prefer stun over freeze QQ).

Demon Roar adds 5k damage worth aggro+damage reflected by 100% Bramble it grants. Bramble ish what makes it keep aggro superiorly compared to sage version which decreases opponents m. attack(which can be countered by refining elem. ornies enough high).

Demon Roar does some good tricks in pve but much more fun in pvp. Again: demon is for protection against phisical mobs and sage against magic one.

Note: Again u mix situational elements here just to emphasize your argument. Your counter: sage has no problem with with physical dmg, and your bramble just creates agro differences in mixed groups of mobs (magic+psy), while sage creates some protection for whole squad against magic dmg.

Alacrity of the Beast isn't supposed to be used for damage but for Interrupting. Thus decreased cooldown beats the sad damage boost sages get

So here you didn't find anything to add for your dmg statement and just preferred to say: sage alacrity sucks right? And you rapidly switched to another skill:

And though demon Blood Bath eats more HP for increased accuracy, 1,8% less HP for 23% more accuracy isn't bad trade, right?

Again with the bias point of view... it's simple as that: sage better for survival, demon for more accuracy.

And the last major advantage of being a demon barb ish Demon Devour. It lasts longer which gives a chance to spam more other skills between devouring and also far less chi usage by having to use Devour 50% less frequently. Not to mention 15 attack levels-debuff which lasts the whole duration, helping any squishy APSing sin tank far better in case they do massive damage compared to ****-refined armors they tend to use. With sage Devour same things might not be possible.
And if someone else can tank the bosses, that gives barb more time for DDing which usually helps anything go down faster(demon barbs spark a lot and do hellish damage, just like a proper demon).

U really don't know how sage devour works? well let me put it blunt:

Sage can SPAM devour without the worry of chi.
That's one of the best advantage sages have over demons since forever.
I'm kinda surprised u used this as a closing line.

Any more claims about sage barb being even equal to demon barb will hereby be either claimed by incompetent barbs unless accompanied by correct calculations.

Kitty must retire from forum specific threads as her comprehension of barbs and how to emphasize class benefits lacks some important aspects. Moreover since your knowledge isn't up to date anymore, your arguments are slightly misleading at some points.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Demon sunder arma isnt that situational in PvE. Almost every mob i kill is killed by sunder arma. I do it all the time. My genie can cast of course both CE and mire from its full energy. Usually combined with HF from my BM buddy who made a habbit of casting HF whenever he sees my sunder.

Other than that ye, lots of red fuzzy **** you countered there

slamstone

i said situational because u need to have bestial rage on and the target to hit u so u can get that extra chi required for sunder+arma. but thats kinda not a problem i guess .

P.S. add to that mystic buff+subsea strike+glacial spike (dg+cloud erruption or sage bm) to say "Oh mama!"

ToyMaker_NOT - Raging Tide

Kittysama - Raging Tide wrote: »

Kitty did delete all her chars and uninstalled the game, but Kitty's still stalking forums at times when she's bored. Just to notice things going worse and worse...

Thinks kitty should admit kitty is a PWI junkie like the rest of us, re-install, and come back. The dark-side is calling. b:thanks

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide

I would've argued against kitty but frankly I don't give enough sh*ts to listen to bias. Maybe if she is reading this I should mention, kitty I trolled you in the other thread in General because your post was obviously baiting and OT.

I think kitty got really bloated and full of herself just because she has this alt army... Oh my, you play all the classes and it automatically makes you an expert.

Oh and ty, slamestone

Tonofpananda - Heavens Tear

slamstone, I wanna have your babies! Almost spot-on my line of thinking, and eloquently and masterfully composed.b:dirty

Colum - Raging Tide

Oh there's life on the barb forums! b:pleased

I'm another fellow demon barbarian here but I also do play a sage barb alt - I'm in the progress of leveling him right now.

I mainly see difference between demon/sage barb as a difference between your playstyle. I went demon simply because my playstyle is very offensive and sunder+arma combo plus sexy demon spark attract me way too much. However, it's sometimes cool to go max defense and take them hits like a boss.

What comes to the quotes below, I wanted to contribute some of my own thoughts.

slamstone wrote: »

Compared to some other classes (see archer, psy, seeker), here both demon/sage are viable options.

I agree with both being viable.

Are u talking about squad benefits or solo benefits? u kinda keep mixing them.

If you're talking about teamwork, demon SoT is good for the beginning spark for the added crit, WHEN played with low crit rate squad. that means what? with a squad of mages+sage barbs.

With a squad of high crit chars (sin/bms/archers) sage SoT ads better stats.

This is also my personal preference especially because with lot of BMs, archers and sins my demon SoT would overwrite their own critrate adds. I do spam demon SoT all the time in Delta and other AoE situations though. Sage SoT is pretty cool especially when I'm DDing and I can abuse my demon BO as much as I want.

That slightly better pdef... you really don't know what "that end game" barb sage shapeshift ads in terms of pdef right? Sage can easy reach the 90% mark, hell even get very close to that 95% mark.

Sorry I think I ruined your color b:shocked I fail at quoting

Anyways, p.def cap is pretty easy to reach anyways with the gear that is available nowadays so I don't really care that much about p.def demon vs sage

I would go here with "FR has a chance to stun" which is way better than a chance to freeze, but each with their own argument.

Although there is a counter argument here, demon FR has a 20% chance for stun, while sage has a 33% chance to freeze (i still prefer stun over freeze QQ).

I think maybe it should be seen as a whole picture.. for example demon Frighten + Surf Impact bring some nice CC possibilities tohugh they cannot be relied on it's still nice to see them pop up every so often while using these skills for other purposes. As a whole I always like the demon skills better but there'd be some single sage things I'd also like to have b:surrender anyway we go for what we have and rock with it yah? b:victory

Demon Roar does some good tricks in pve but much more fun in pvp. Again: demon is for protection against phisical mobs and sage against magic one.

Note: Again u mix situational elements here just to emphasize your argument. Your counter: sage has no problem with with physical dmg, and your bramble just creates agro differences in mixed groups of mobs (magic+psy), while sage creates some protection for whole squad against magic dmg.

Dayum, demon roar kills melee classes for me so I can focus fire on them casters.

U really don't know how sage devour works? well let me put it blunt:

Sage can SPAM devour without the worry of chi.
That's one of the best advantage sages have over demons since forever.
I'm kinda surprised u used this as a closing line.

IIt took me a while to figure out a perfect combo to keep demon devour constantly up and demon FR as much as possible without suffering massive chi drain (also keep in mind I mainly play without CE on genie). I did work my way around it, but my combo must not break at any single point and I need to keep bestial rage on cooldown all the time or I'm gonna run out of chi. Luckily there isn't big need to tank everything anymore since the gearlevel has changed so much and sometimes I can just play the DD/support role.

WannaBM - Archosaur

they did increase the phys resist cap though. So that aspect became more usefull for the sage again. Still, for PvE no question all that defence is very redundant and youre better of with some better offensive abilities.

Demon is better than sage when used vs bosses while sage is better when more targets hit you. i wont even go further than this.

I have a slight preference for demon bestial against multiple targets. (against bosses i couldnt care less) The total chi they generate is pretty similar. I prefer to get the chi faster, the duration of bestial is long enough that i can cast all the chi costing skills that i want (invoke-sunder-armageddon-wrath) There is very little use for any chi you get after that anyway so sage bestial just increases the chance that you have to wait for the chi before you can cast your skills or it provides chi that you cant use before another minute (twice the bestial cooldown)

I too have a sage barb but i retired it. The main thing that i did prefer on the sage barb was the lower chi consumption of ream and devour. But now i just use CE to keep up and it works fine.

Colum - Raging Tide

Well so far I haven't noticed any gamebreaking difference between sage and demon shapeshift in actual use but that's just me. b:surrender

//edit and yes the things I'd like the most on sage path is less chi consumed... then again on a demon barb it's just so easy to sunder+arma everyhting to death and watch how BP (or just ToP if u lack BP) heals u back to full and your chi is also filled when you're done just to repeat this combo again. I'm addicted to it. b:dirty

lythraos

Kittysama - Raging Tide wrote: »

Why demon barbs are superior to sage barbs?
[...]
[TL; DR]

Cuz they are. Period.

slamstone

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

they did increase the phys resist cap though. So that aspect became more usefull for the sage again. Still, for PvE no question all that defence is very redundant and youre better of with some better offensive abilities.

True, in pve there not much need in defenses, therefore making it insignificant, but in pvp "too much def" doesn't exist, especially when more and more we're talking about unbuffed value (bm, archers, sins, barb all can purge).

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I have a slight preference for demon bestial against multiple targets. (against bosses i couldnt care less) The total chi they generate is pretty similar. I prefer to get the chi faster, the duration of bestial is long enough that i can cast all the chi costing skills that i want (invoke-sunder-armageddon-wrath) There is very little use for any chi you get after that anyway so sage bestial just increases the chance that you have to wait for the chi before you can cast your skills or it provides chi that you cant use before another minute (twice the bestial cooldown)

Why i preffer sage:

Sage bestial rage generates 6 chi/hit, but it lasts for 20 seconds, with a 30 seconds cooldown (cd same as demon).

That being said the actual waiting time is of only 10 seconds between br. Therefore when multiple mobs atack you, be it 6chi or 8chi(demon) the amount of chi gained is huge allowing to cast any chi consuming skill.

The difference is that sages (again considering multiple hits) can continue to spam chi skills (sunder firestorm whatever) 10 seconds more, and still have full chi at the end, thats what makes the sage shine.

See for example FSP mobs, that if not accompanied by dg or zhening can take up or more than 20 seconds to kill.

On bosses on the other hand, when the number of hits are limited, i preffer 8chi/hit for 10 seconds, instead of 6chi/20 as bosses come down easy anyway and there is no need for much time to build chi.

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I too have a sage barb but i retired it. The main thing that i did prefer on the sage barb was the lower chi consumption of ream and devour. But now i just use CE to keep up and it works fine.

Sage devour is my favorite and i'll explain why. It has 25% to generate 35 Chi. That means 1 in 4 hits it generates 35 chi without costing chi, putting to 70 chi the cost of 4 devour.

That 1/4 chance doesn't seem big, but it can generate a quite good amount of chi, especially when lets say u don't use it for more than 2-3 squad sparks, or in long fights it basically reduces the cost of chi by half.

I went demon simply because my playstyle is very offensive and sunder+arma combo plus sexy demon spark attract me way too much. However, it's sometimes cool to go max defense and take them hits like a boss.

The advantage of demon spark is that it allows the aps build. That is surely a benefit.

The problem is that:
- the antiaps buff appears more and more often in the common instances
- the bosses HP is getting lower and the defenses higher
- some bosses actually help you with chi by directly giving it to you
- some bosses spawn mobs that if not killed it helps with bestial rage chi build up
- the gear evolves faster than pve content, so the overall squad damage output has increased compared to the content of the instances

In this context, the need to permaspark is somehow lower, therefore the attack rate buff of demon spark is diminished while the sage spark brings new benefits.

This especially when skills got overhauled and the passives bring extra skill damage, that along with the buffing/debuffing from earthguard, balancing the amount of brute dmg spark+normal hits bring to the table versus demon/sage spark+skills.

You can argue that it lets you build chi faster, that is true, but lets face it, we are barbs, there are mobs all around, you can't really complain of chi between fights, both demon and sage have their own ways of generating enough chi till the next boss (mobs, master li technique, human-true form dance, demon BKI, CE, 8-6chi/hit).

Again im talking about the latest updates, im not arguing the advantages of aps in TT or some of the older instances.

WannaBM - Archosaur

You didnt understand me i guess

"The difference is that sages (again considering multiple hits) can continue to spam chi skills (sunder firestorm whatever) 10 seconds more, and still have full chi at the end, thats what makes the sage shine."

The whole point i tried to make was that you only have 3 skills to cast after invoke. You cast them all within demon bestials duration easilly and then you need to wait 1 minute for cooldown. Enough time to cast bestial twice more !

And anything that takes more than 20s to kill often takes more than a minute to kill too as the first 2 hits do 300-400k together (demonsunder-arma without HF) And after that you are just trying to keep attacking to keep yourself healthy by the paint heals and waiting for the good stuff to come off cooldown. All that 20 or 30seconds or whatever dont count, its the first 5 seconds everything is about. But then again, that is of course only the case if you have demon sunder.

The advantage of demon spark is that it allows the aps build. That is surely a benefit.

The problem is that:
<insert everything PWI did to reduce APS influence

Yep. That is been the reason for me to stop investing in my fists, not to +12 them. Also if i were to start from scratch now, knowing that it would take me a year to get it to end game at least and anticipating a continuation in the anti APS trent. I would possibly not choose to make and APS barb anymore since it is very little good for any of the new content that comes out.
I find this very unfortunate and i think they grossly overdo it. APS is fun. I hope they come back from this a little and balance it out instead of overkill it. If that anti APS buff had half the effect, ranged DDs wouls still have their chances to out DD the APSers. The barbs would have a valid choise of APSing or skilling and the BMs would not be wasting half their time apsing without dealing dmg just because they want to provide us with HFs every 30s.

Colum - Raging Tide

I also want to point out that vs anti aps bosses it's really cool to have things like demon slam while DDing - that chi gain yo! b:victory

That isnt ofc a reason to go demon, just something I like xD

dogm

Demon chi generation lasts for 15 seconds, not 10. I tested this on my barb. The below 50% hp mdef shield did last 10 seconds.

I don't have a sage barb, but looking at the skill description in encyclopedia it seems sage also has a 15 second chi generation. And the 20 seconds applies to the mdef shield. But not sure on this.

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide

dogm wrote: »

Demon chi generation lasts for 15 seconds, not 10. I tested this on my barb. The below 50% hp mdef shield did last 10 seconds.

I don't have a sage barb, but looking at the skill description in encyclopedia it seems sage also has a 15 second chi generation. And the 20 seconds applies to the mdef shield. But not sure on this.

Sage Bestial Rage works as it says. 20 seconds of chi gain, 30 second cooldown, and I think it's a 2,000 point absorbtion of magic damage should the person fall under 50% HP

slamstone

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

You didnt understand me i guess

oops, i think that was just a difference of views. but i get what you're saying.

From my point of view, ok you cast the 3 skills and replenish the chi, but there's nothing stopping you from 3-2-1 sparking and thus amping the non chi skills in a 20 sec br. I guess it all depends on the "toughness of mobs".

What i was trying to say is that the 20 secs gives more space to maneuver and the difference between 6 and 8 chi (when multiple targets) is not that big to cover a double duration.(more if the mobs cc from time to time).

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

When they are close to you, a demon barb is a lot more deadly, no question about that. Way more crit, usually more damage (though sage still has the highest spike, they reach the spike way less often).

However, there is an interesting difference in how sage and demon barbs gain chi.

A demon barb spams beast kings inspiration. They get 30 chi each time, and the cooldown of beast king's inspiration is 3 seconds, so this works out to 10 chi per second.

A sage barb switches from human form to tiger form. The cooldown of the switch is 2 seconds, and they get 20 chi each time, therefore they get 10 chi per second as well.

The big difference, however, is mobility. When a demon barb wants to get their chi back with beast kings, they have to stay planted in one spot, in human form, and they have to furthermore channel and cast a skill. This makes them highly vulnerable to attack!

However, a sage barbarian who wants to gain chi can easily outpace most classes while still getting that chi back. For example, if a sage barb is in a vulnerable state where they've run out of chi and their genie is gone, they don't have to stand in human form, they can run about 40 meters away from the enemy and keep switching forms, gaining the same amount of chi as the demon but without the same vulnerability.

Because of the vulnerability to standing and spamming beast king's inspiration, demon barbs I think don't usually have as much chi to operate with as a sage barb. Sage skills in general use less chi, and sages in general gain chi more often (think of all the times that barbs naturally switch forms, to say, devour > switch > stun, where a sage is getting chi each time but a demon isn't).

Because a sage barb has more chi, they can spend it a little more freely too. More triple sparks, more armas, more invokes.

Arma. Yes, demon arma hits a bit harder than sage, we've already established that. But sage arma is way safer. If a demon does arma while an opponent is attacking, they are guaranteed a charm tick where the sage may be able to avoid a charm tick. If the barb's charm had ticked just before arma, demon arma makes barb quite a bit closer to death than the sage.

And finally: the slightly better hp and defenses for sage barb means they can use their genie slightly more offensively than a demon barb. Whereas a demon barb may be forced to use their genie defensively bit more often, sage barb may be able to throw out occult ice or mire a bit more readily.

Just some thoughts as to why sage barb isn't really that much worse than demon for pvp.

Atropah - Sanctuary

slamstone wrote: »

I really really hoped this forum has lost the red fuzzy 3d person spam....well i guess not all wishes cam come true.

Agreed, and there is much in your post I agree on but a few points I'll debate or expand on. Notice no one is quoting our OP because no one likes to read half developed concepts in 3rd person, but yours have been well thought out.

slamstone wrote: »

Both demon/sage are highly dependent on what build/stat placement go with.

Totally agree. As people point out, they are also situational. Even in TW I'd chose sage as a catabarb and demon as a support/attack. In PvE I still see aps barbs as the best option, so demon. Even if the barb never goes human or puts on claws I'd know he probably has higher str and accuracy and can regulate his chi. But if we're talking axe swingers, then the difference in pve content are almost too minor. I expect a demon to keep slightly better aggro (more spammable chi skill cooldowns) and do better dd when zhening, but I expect a sage to do larger pulls and have a smoother time tanking most bosses. Each of those only slightly better so it's kind of a wash. Hard to say one is better across all fields, across all situations, across all stat builds.

slamstone wrote: »

Poison fang ad is just for solo, but why are u mixing this into equation? if you're dismantling skills piece by piece stick with the sage/demon benefits not sot+poison fang vs sot. I can go with ah+sot vs your sot+poison fang and u'll come with sot+poison fang+demon crits bonuses, and so on....this won't end up in nothing but a custom situation when this+this+this+this might be better than this+this+this+this in solo and the other in teamplay.

This debate has somewhat evolved with the recent expansion. Use of SoT before starting a boss or big pull was great for dropping mobs/boss quickly and 40% weapon damage +5% crit was better than 50%. It probably still is, but with Primal passive crit increase and the increase in stats all around it makes less of a difference. People get about 2.5% more dps either way. 5% more crit when you have 40-65% base isn't as huge as it used to be when people had 15-35%, but neither is 50% more weapon dd when you have 600 strength, or 800 magic.

However, I'd argue that demon Poison Fang becomes more valuable as a self buff if you're trying to keep aggro.

slamstone wrote: »

Demon Sunder+Arma is situational also. U must be hit by something while having bestial rage on, to work.

Well you wouldnt be armaing if you don't have anything attacking you so... it's pretty much always functional, lol. I think what you're getting at is if bestial rage is not active then sunder+arma combo doesn't work. Part of being a smart player is planning both your chi use and your skill cds. With a short cd like 30 seconds bestial rage is pretty easy to always have available.

slamstone wrote: »

Demon is better than sage when used vs bosses while sage is better when more targets hit you. i wont even go further than this.

Hmm, that seems off. I'd favor sage for bosses because it lasts longer. You're more likely to catch high chi points like double boss attacks (when they use a phys attack and their special attack) or things like spawns. "When more targets hit you" probably also favors sage because your chi bar fills up slower, so you need more mobs attacking to get full chi.

I'd favor demon, though, because my typical zhen pull is bestial rage->invoke (3 sec) -> sunder (3.1 sec)-> arma (2.2 sec) and every mob, or almost every mob, should be dead. That's 8.3 seconds. Actually even less considering I have -channeling on a ring and my tome. Anyways, 8 seconds to use 6 sparks and try to end with a full chi bar. That means I'm wasting 7 seconds of even a demon bestial rage and would be wasting 12 seconds of a sage.

If I'm doing something like a Delta or Aba where I have a squad I expect the mobs to die even faster and possibly for aggro to get pulled off of me by ambitious DDs. This makes it even more important to have the buff that gives chi quicker (8 chi/hit) instead of the one that lasts longer but gives less (5 chi/hit) because the mobs wont be on you for more than a few seconds.

Lastly, I know we have many anti-melee bosses and because of this axe swingers have become popular again with bad chi gain. And I saw the other anti-aps points you make about bosses that spawn mobs or feed you chi. That's true and that is something to consider but almost all farming instances are still not anti-melee as well as most of our BH100s and every BH under that. People are making a big deal because 15 or so bosses now have anti-melee buffs but don't comment that there are like 120 bosses in this game (including the TTs). It's important to know how to tank both ways, and also important to know when to go "this boss hits me for like 300 damage, I'm gonna devour spam and let the sin tank." You know how many barbs still do the 'I R Tank!' thing against my sin for the Wraithslayer Missive boss, lol? He hits like 100 damage. Tangent there, but my point is many bosses are still apsable and we can conserve chi and try to build as much as we can in the 10 seconds they're alive so for 90% of the bosses demon bestial is a great thing.



I also know Aeliyah points out demon's building chi with BKI later, but that is a squad chi buff. Most demon barbs will use cloud eruption for themselves and pick times to treat the squad to more chi. His points still valid, but barbs are prepared to CE/Syphon while demons can also offer something to their squad. I'm still jealous sages get so much from shapeshifting.