Preferences when building a squad or joining one

Eoria - Harshlands

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Not only do I think it's a good idea, I think it's long overdue.

This is what I was feeling as well.

Perhaps a setup like this would work?:

-Intro
-Basics
-Classes
-Leveling Progression
-Gear Progression
-Instances (ones that aren't covered in the leveling part)
-Glossary
-Useful Links

idk. I'll start typing **** up after TW and see where I end up.

ovenusarmanio

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

This is what I was feeling as well.

Perhaps a setup like this would work?:

-Intro
-Basics
-Classes
-Leveling Progression
-Gear Progression
-Glossary
-Useful Links

idk. I'll start typing **** up after TW and see where I end up.

I look forward to it.

Eden - Raging Tide

is this forum op personal blog to post non insightful platitudes?

or a soap box for feeling superior to others?

cant tell which one maybe op can clear this up

sad there have been constructive posts in topic made just for basis of feeling superior to others by nitpick and make big deal out of minor pet peeves

Miugre - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote:

I don't think that we're all in disagreement about how people should equip responsibly: I think our perceptions of those people are where we disagree. Some perceive them as new, where others like Jadsia and I perceive most of them as moochers. I don't think we're above helping lesser geared players: we're above helping bare minimalists. -That carries on into skills as well (equips are just more obvious).

I suggested a long time ago that a veno could get into a Nirvana squad by saying they have sage amp when they only had lvl 10. -There's no way to tell if they do or not. Equips are often a good give away. Some people will have 3 gear slots empty because they're too lazy to stash or trade equips over.

Some of us see it, some of us always think the best of others.

Look, I think there are certain tropes that we can all agree just come down to laziness. I've had people in my runs with half their gears missing before, and y'know what I've told them to do? Go buy some NPC gears. Then they'll at least be able to function.

I don't advocate for clerics to leave IH at Lv1. I don't advocate for BMs to not bother learning their axe skills. I don't advocate for a barb tanking in human form when he clealy can't surive or hold aggro while doing so. There are simple questions of what will complete the run and what won't.

But at the same time... I won't go off on a barb who hasn't learned Stomp of the King or Cornered Beast, both of which I have and rely on heavily in my BH runs. That's extracirricular. It's something to shoot for, if you think they'll help you (and objectively speaking, they usually do). But I got by just fine before I had them, just like I got by in my archer's 90 gold armor before I got him g15. What you call "bare minimalism" in this context could mean any number of different playstyles, which is why judging someone by their gear is really a ****-poor criteria in almost any case unless they're committing very severe and obvious errors (e.g. TT70 armors at 10x).

tweakz wrote:

-Imagine enduring that 8x a day, or losing a possible excitement card because you couldn't squeeze in your last BH of the day. Also; what if you have limited time?

I have four BH100-capable characters and I usually only bother to do my two mains. I couldn't imagine doing eight runs per day, I'd be bored out of my mind. The problem here is that you treat BH as a requirement, and your squadmates as impediments to completing that requirement. Hence the perfectionism.

Regarding time... if you don't have time to do BH before some other in-game obligation, then you shouldn't be doing BH. If you don't have time to do BH before an out-of-game obligation, then you shouldn't be gaming, period. What this comes down to is an issue of overinflated priorities.

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

Yeah, people who don't contribute to the party are moochers...yes. What's so loaded about that?

Let's see... how about the definitions of "contribute" and "carry their weight?" :P Really, all you did was respond to my accusation that your term could have multiple meanings by using other words which also have multiple meanings.

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

Common sense is derived from what the vast majority knows and does. And on my server the vast majority 99+ have updated gears and skills or are working on them instead of QQing or making excuses for not doing so.

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

If they don't care enough to invest in upgrading their gears they most likely neglected skills too.

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

it's stupid easy to level from 99 to 100 and even easier to upgrade TT99 gears to NV gears. There's no excuse to not do this.

Problem with what you call common sense is that it all inevitably falls into the same common misconceptions. You see someone dying in g12 and g13 gear? I'll see just as many people survive and contribute in it. And yes, I am talking about Aba/SoT now. Just two weeks with the new instances and people are already adapting to it, gear or no gear. It's not my fault you apparently only run with idiots.

Do you have any idea how ignorant you look when you imply that people with TT99 gears don't know how to level their skills properly? My archer had all his skills maxed (and all but Barrage upgraded to Sage), and all Morai skills learned before he even left his TT90 gold armor. The TT99 barb has all skills maxed, over half of them sage and a good selection of Morai and Chrono skills which I'll use to good effect everywhere from BH to NW.

And speaking of NW, you're certainly right in saying my barb's a oneshot to the right caster. First of all that never bothers me to begin with because HP soaked is credits earned, but more importantly, you don't need supergears to run flags properly, or to dig crystals. I never have any trouble earning a respectable amount of tokens on my barb, and when adjusted against the price of my gear versus those who can oneshot me, I almost certainly take home more of a net profit percentage than most. Oh wait, I guess by your rules that makes me a "moocher." :P

So would you still kick me out of an Aba run? If so, then I'd say your squads aren't worth running in. If you're going to make that kind of snap judgement just by looking at someone's gear, then that's elitism and nothing else.

I mean, it's really entertaining to watch you jump to conclusions about me based on my gear choices. :P But imagine if any of it were true. What am I gonna find out about myself next? Do I shard sapphires into my physical weps? Is my TT99 armor arcane? Do I punch kittens? Oh, the suspense! You gotta love jumping to conclusions. The fun never stops!

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

It becomes my business when someone with the likes of you and your attitude joins my squad. That's when.

Oh, no, attitude? Anything but that! **** skill level and intelligence, the important thing is that no one is allowed to do well in g12 gear and take pride in that. I guess pride and success are reserved for g15 or higher, is that it? What's the matter, having trouble validating yourself on your own gear purchases? >_>

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

Guess what? Every squad I join or make include randoms and we do just fine most of the time. Why? Because we adhere to that old 'common knowledge' **** previously mentioned. The number one cause of problems in my random squads is miscommunication.

Now see, coming from you, this one is way out of left field. You never mentioned communication as a concern before this post. It was just gear, stats, and levels (which you failed to clarify referred to class skill levels until this post)... which are all concrete, numerically-derived values upon which any opinion formed is arbitrary and judgemental by nature.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote:

Nah, your mabey work a crayon drawing but not MS paint. Pretty sure that even the magic of crayola cant cure your case of "the stupid" so debating if its worth it.

Hey, if you want to fail to back up your own points and look like a pushover, that's your prerogative. :P All I'm seeing is a whiny BM complaining about BB for no adequately-explained reason.

Eoria - Harshlands wrote:

Also, Venus, this is something I've been wondering for awhile, but do you think it'd be worthwhile to make an updated beginner's guide? Something detailing leveling info up to 100 while taking into account the new dailies like Season quest and Jolly Jones orders + detailing general gear progression + having useful links like to stuff like where to get Dreamchaser packs and pwdatabase/pwcalc. I think I'd be willing to undertake it.

May I offer any help on this matter? It sounds like a worthy pursuit. Just needs to be done with caution, so as to present a reasonable picture of the game and its community without loading them down with platitudes and expectations (e.g. powerleveling, gear requirements, etc). It's actually an idea I've been toying with myself.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Migure, I'd like to refer you to my catabarb fac mate who was hanging at around 20% HP for almost all the pulls (small pulls) because the cleric was TT99 + 2 weapon. His BB did exactly jack****. And that was with me holding at least half the mobs for him, with Omalley, popping crabs on CD inside BB and spamming AD/Pan gu.

You might like to be the special little snowflake that glorifies being undergeared and underprepared, but I think 2 hours in lunar due to underprepared people sucks and is anything but fun. Neither was a huge repair bill on the barb and huge pot cost. Stop; I don't want to settle for less than perfect. If you want to stick with less than perfect then go hunt deer and live in a cave; it's fine, you don't need to improve yourself to be happy!

As for definition of perfectionism: speed, low cost, high yield--> do runs faster, with lower repairs, meaning killing pulls in one HF and bosses in 1 or 2, successful successive stealth warsongs and 15 minute lunars are a prime example. Back in the day 3 minute Nirvy runs were cool too. If we can lower the time further then we will work towards it. You can sit on your pretty little non-perfectionistic butt and try to be high and mighty for being un-pro, the rest of us will actually improve our lot.

Sukinee - Heavens Tear

I almost always form my own squads, simply because it's just easier to form as opposed to find.

Here's my criteria for players when forming a squad:

Do you have a basic understanding of the English language?: yes? cool
Are you able to follow directions?: yes? cool
Can you tank or solo heal when you swear up and down you can?: yes? cool
Do you afk all the time?: no? cool
Are you an elitist and/or jerk?: yes? ohhhh I'm going to have fun with you

Also my gosh, with all these standards in this thread being more pointed at clerics, it's no wonder clerics are so hard to find.

Eoria - Harshlands

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

May I offer any help on this matter? It sounds like a worthy pursuit. Just needs to be done with caution, so as to present a reasonable picture of the game and its community without loading them down with platitudes and expectations (e.g. powerleveling, gear requirements, etc). It's actually an idea I've been toying with myself.

This is no offense to you, but the majority of people that play this game or will potentially play this game are not and will not be satisfied by just sitting in the bare minimum of gear. Most of the fun of for people is, you know, coming to an instance and having it be a big challenge and surmounting it and then coming back later after you've geared up and rolling through it. You seem to be okay with perpetually staying at that first step, but a lot of people aren't. There's also the fact that if you want to PVP, you probably don't want to be stuck in tt99 and will want to be competitive.

Neferhotep - Lost City

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You might like to be the special little snowflake that glorifies being undergeared and underprepared, but I think 2 hours in lunar due to underprepared people sucks and is anything but fun. Neither was a huge repair bill on the barb and huge pot cost. Stop; I don't want to settle for less than perfect. If you want to stick with less than perfect then go hunt deer and live in a cave; it's fine, you don't need to improve yourself to be happy!

As for definition of perfectionism: speed, low cost, high yield--> do runs faster, with lower repair

How about just having fun with playing the game instead of only having fun with getting coins and molds? You know, the journey is the goal .... Theres no point in rushing to 101 to get best gear possible as soon as you have the lvl for it, when youre not even able to have fun without it. If you already refer to RL, i highly doubt youre a "perfect" person with a "perfect" life.
Because if you are a "perfect" person with your definition of "perfect" you sound like those people willing to sell their own mother to get reputaion and money ....

If you prefer doing only runs with top-geared people and the only thing you enjoy about it is the reward you get,ithen do it. But there are others who wanna try out if they can do it with their current gear, maybe because its a challenge, maybe because they dont have the money to improve their gear yet. Seriously, just say that you only want g15+ in WC shout and everything is fine.

Because if those dungeons would only be for top-geared people im sure PWI would have made it neccesary to be g15 since theyd get even more coins.

Theres nothing wrong if people prefer the old ways where spending a hour in a dungeon was normal then just do it the easiest way to make profit in 10 minutes.

When i was with faction mates in dungeons i didnt know before i sometimes even forbid them to kill certain mobs too fast because i wanted to look at them carefully xD Or try to find all places you could stand on cause of graphical bugs >>

Jacerai - Dreamweaver

Sukinee - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I almost always form my own squads, simply because it's just easier to form as opposed to find.

Here's my criteria for players when forming a squad:

Do you have a basic understanding of the English language?: yes? cool
Are you able to follow directions?: yes? cool
Can you tank or solo heal when you swear up and down you can?: yes? cool
Do you afk all the time?: no? cool
Are you an elitist and/or jerk?: yes? ohhhh I'm going to have fun with you

Also my gosh, with all these standards in this thread being more pointed at clerics, it's no wonder clerics are so hard to find.

I rarely run randoms on my cleric these days because of the mindset of the players. f:sweat

I have a nice faction and run with them and friends. Done.

On my other toons, I go for randoms. Makes for a nice reaction time.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Migure, I'd like to refer you to my catabarb fac mate who was hanging at around 20% HP for almost all the pulls (small pulls) because the cleric was TT99 + 2 weapon. His BB did exactly jack****. And that was with me holding at least half the mobs for him, with Omalley, popping crabs on CD inside BB and spamming AD/Pan gu.

You might like to be the special little snowflake that glorifies being undergeared and underprepared, but I think 2 hours in lunar due to underprepared people sucks and is anything but fun. Neither was a huge repair bill on the barb and huge pot cost. Stop; I don't want to settle for less than perfect. If you want to stick with less than perfect then go hunt deer and live in a cave; it's fine, you don't need to improve yourself to be happy!

As for definition of perfectionism: speed, low cost, high yield--> do runs faster, with lower repairs, meaning killing pulls in one HF and bosses in 1 or 2, successful successive stealth warsongs and 15 minute lunars are a prime example. Back in the day 3 minute Nirvy runs were cool too. If we can lower the time further then we will work towards it. You can sit on your pretty little non-perfectionistic butt and try to be high and mighty for being un-pro, the rest of us will actually improve our lot.

You realize, of course, that my mentioning of my ideal run was in no way an attempt to hijack the thread. >_> I was only pointing out to you that we all have our favorite ways of running BH (which is the point of the thread). Funny how the phrase "high and mighty" comes out towards the only person that isn't favoring gear elitism. -_-

I've tanked BHs in a TT99 BB plenty of times, so I'm going to assume you're referring to Lunar because none of the others would pose a significant challenge to that squad. Honestly, Lunar has some very questionable design choices in it. It's certainly tougher than the other four, leading to the question (in my mind anyway) of what gear it was really designed for... especially seeing as it originally came out before R9 or g16 nirv did.

Full disclosure, I don't do Lunar much. Not because I can't... but because even if the run does only last 15 minutes, there are better uses of my time. I could run Cube in 15 minutes and get a PoF worth 500k, which is about as much as your 25% chance at 2/5mil from BH is worth (and I care almost nothing for the badges). There's several reasons people tend to skip BH on Lunar day (even after the 3mil entry fee became a non-issue due to EoDs).

But frankly, I'm at a loss as to where your scorn is really coming from. I don't fault people for wanting to do runs fast. I run with them all the time. Some of them are my friends. More often they're ranting, whining, complaining about this or that, as if they were entitled to a five minute run solely in the company of people as broken as they are. But you know what? Through all that, I can at least identify with people I don't agree with. Near as I can tell, you're making no such attempt.

Eoria wrote:

This is no offense to you, but the majority of people that play this game or will potentially play this game are not and will not be satisfied by just sitting in the bare minimum of gear. Most of the fun of for people is, you know, coming to an instance and having it be a big challenge and surmounting it and then coming back later after you've geared up and rolling through it. You seem to be okay with perpetually staying at that first step, but a lot of people aren't. There's also the fact that if you want to PVP, you probably don't want to be stuck in tt99 and will want to be competitive.

Which is why I offered to help, not do the whole thing. :P I don't claim that my opinion represents everyone's opinion. If you're going to do a newbie guide, you want to give them a full picture of their options. That means giving them a sense of what's absolutely required and what options they could strive for if they so choose.

But all that is really tangential to this thread, so I sent you a PM on the subject. Interested in hearing your thoughts.

Jadsia - Lost City

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I hope in that 4 month period you did not join a BH squad. Otherwise you're being completely unreasonable to expect everyone else to be at the same point as you are. There is always going to be someone new to the class or new to the game that just got to 100 and haven't had a chance yet to upgrade their gear. You cannot tell their intentions or how much progress they've made just by glancing at their gear. This game has placed an enormous amount of social and game design pressure to hurry up to level 100, and then when people do hurry up to (and thus are unlikely to be able to afford g15 gear right away) they are ridiculed, belittled, and automatically kicked from squad. And most of the time it isn't causing wipe after wipe after wipe. When I was doing BH100, I almost exclusively ran it with randoms. And the people who actually slowed squads down to a crawl or a halt were rare. Most people might have died like once, maybe twice. But it wasn't often that anyone died at all. Most of the time, their "sin" was adding a couple more minutes to the run. That's about it. Having rerolled servers, and getting a taste of the newbie medicine (although I'm significantly better off because I know what i'm doing) I can see why it happens now. And I'm a bit more forgiving of hyper nubs than I was in the past. As long as they are willing to listen, and don't cause wipes, I'm more resolved to be more patient with them than I have in the past.

There's a difference between people actually putting forth great effort into leveling their skills and upgrading their gears and those who do not. My point is that if one is failing SoT and Aba or whatever then they need to re-evaluate the reasons why or if they should even be in the instance in the 1st place. Most of the experienced people know why and reject those they feel most unlikely to complete the instance for whatever reasons. I'm actually very tolerant and lenient to people wanting to join my squads for cultis. We as a team understand and expect those players to underperform due to lower grade gears and inexperience. I've mentioned this in many of my posts. But when it comes to routine daily events like BH every squad member ought to know by then what to expect and what is expected from them. If they cannot put out then they are kicked out.

Who wants an EP in BH SoT or Aba that has 7K HP when fully buffed and gets 1 shot through their own BB because they stat vit and have low grade not very refined gears? Who wants a BM at level 100 in BH delta what doesn't even know what HF (dragon skill) is because he never bothered to learn it? I could go on.

There are pressures to get from 1 to 100 fast. That's the very problem so many of us have with the game in its current state for the very reason that it promotes fast leveling but not fast experience and not fast accumulation of skills. I've played this veno since the game was 2 weeks out of beta and I leveled it slow as I went through every culti and learned every skill. Even if I had a few 8 month breaks and came back to a lot of changes there is no comparison for all my accumulated experience in from those years of game play to those who make a toon and level it to 100 in a month.

A major part of the game is learning how to make in-game coin. They have to figure that out in a big way. Either trade gold for coin to make it in-game. Skills are expensive in both experience and spirit as well as coin. PWE did a great disservice to the new players putting that kind of pressure on people to level. Unless they run marathon sessions of game playing I can't see how they can accumulate the skills and level them with all the cultis at the same pace they level from 1 to 100. If and when it comes to doing mainstream events like daily BHs et al if they aren't up to par they aren't much use for a squad especially in light of the revamped SoT and Aba.

I will berate and belittle those who refuse to comprehend that it's their own choices and styles of gameplay that is causing them the most difficulty. Most often it's just laziness.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Look, I think there are certain tropes that we can all agree just come down to laziness. I've had people in my runs with half their gears missing before, and y'know what I've told them to do? Go buy some NPC gears. Then they'll at least be able to function.

I don't advocate for clerics to leave IH at Lv1. I don't advocate for BMs to not bother learning their axe skills. I don't advocate for a barb tanking in human form when he clealy can't surive or hold aggro while doing so. There are simple questions of what will complete the run and what won't.

But at the same time... I won't go off on a barb who hasn't learned Stomp of the King or Cornered Beast, both of which I have and rely on heavily in my BH runs. That's extracirricular. It's something to shoot for, if you think they'll help you (and objectively speaking, they usually do). But I got by just fine before I had them, just like I got by in my archer's 90 gold armor before I got him g15. What you call "bare minimalism" in this context could mean any number of different playstyles, which is why judging someone by their gear is really a ****-poor criteria in almost any case unless they're committing very severe and obvious errors (e.g. TT70 armors at 10x).


I have four BH100-capable characters and I usually only bother to do my two mains. I couldn't imagine doing eight runs per day, I'd be bored out of my mind. The problem here is that you treat BH as a requirement, and your squadmates as impediments to completing that requirement. Hence the perfectionism.

Regarding time... if you don't have time to do BH before some other in-game obligation, then you shouldn't be doing BH. If you don't have time to do BH before an out-of-game obligation, then you shouldn't be gaming, period. What this comes down to is an issue of overinflated priorities.




Let's see... how about the definitions of "contribute" and "carry their weight?" :P Really, all you did was respond to my accusation that your term could have multiple meanings by using other words which also have multiple meanings.


Seriously? Is it that difficult a concept for you to grasp?

Problem with what you call common sense is that it all inevitably falls into the same common misconceptions. You see someone dying in g12 and g13 gear? I'll see just as many people survive and contribute in it. And yes, I am talking about Aba/SoT now. Just two weeks with the new instances and people are already adapting to it, gear or no gear. It's not my fault you apparently only run with idiots.

I don't run with idiots. The squad creators screen out people who they believe will fail and kick and replace those who fail in these runs. I don't know how many times I say this but gear is not the only factor related to a successful run. It's the char's skills and the player's ability to work as a team too.

Do you have any idea how ignorant you look when you imply that people with TT99 gears don't know how to level their skills properly? My archer had all his skills maxed (and all but Barrage upgraded to Sage), and all Morai skills learned before he even left his TT90 gold armor. The TT99 barb has all skills maxed, over half of them sage and a good selection of Morai and Chrono skills which I'll use to good effect everywhere from BH to NW.

Do you know how ridiculous and ignorant you come across because you have some kind of fetish for not spending 50 supply tokens for 250 cannies to upgrade armors or 250 raps to upgrade a weapon? Why are you so opposed to doing something as simple as 1st and 2nd casting NV gears?

And speaking of NW, you're certainly right in saying my barb's a oneshot to the right caster. First of all that never bothers me to begin with because HP soaked is credits earned, but more importantly, you don't need supergears to run flags properly, or to dig crystals. I never have any trouble earning a respectable amount of tokens on my barb, and when adjusted against the price of my gear versus those who can oneshot me, I almost certainly take home more of a net profit percentage than most. Oh wait, I guess by your rules that makes me a "moocher." :P

A 1 shot barb isn't much good for any squad but hey if that makes you proud then stick with it.

So would you still kick me out of an Aba run? If so, then I'd say your squads aren't worth running in. If you're going to make that kind of snap judgement just by looking at someone's gear, then that's elitism and nothing else.

Yes. If you can't survive and contribute to the squad's progress in any instance You'd be kicked. I highly doubt that my position on this is a unique one.

I mean, it's really entertaining to watch you jump to conclusions about me based on my gear choices. :P But imagine if any of it were true. What am I gonna find out about myself next? Do I shard sapphires into my physical weps? Is my TT99 armor arcane? Do I punch kittens? Oh, the suspense! You gotta love jumping to conclusions. The fun never stops!

The conclusion is your apparent resistance to upgrading your gears when it is so easy to do. If you aren't willing to improve something so easily done then it illustrates a laziness to improve your gameplay as well.

Oh, no, attitude? Anything but that! **** skill level and intelligence, the important thing is that no one is allowed to do well in g12 gear and take pride in that. I guess pride and success are reserved for g15 or higher, is that it? What's the matter, having trouble validating yourself on your own gear purchases? >_>

LOL! As I said, the only difference between g12 and g15 gears is 250 cannies each or 250 raps for a weapon. By the way, I farmed most of my gear and used my NW rewards to upgrade them like everyone else except you.


Now see, coming from you, this one is way out of left field. You never mentioned communication as a concern before this post. It was just gear, stats, and levels (which you failed to clarify referred to class skill levels until this post)... which are all concrete, numerically-derived values upon which any opinion formed is arbitrary and judgemental by nature.

And you'll deny this too?

ROTFL! Kepp proving my point

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Migure, I'd like to refer you to my catabarb fac mate who was hanging at around 20% HP for almost all the pulls (small pulls) because the cleric was TT99 + 2 weapon. His BB did exactly jack****. And that was with me holding at least half the mobs for him, with Omalley, popping crabs on CD inside BB and spamming AD/Pan gu.

You might like to be the special little snowflake that glorifies being undergeared and underprepared, but I think 2 hours in lunar due to underprepared people sucks and is anything but fun. Neither was a huge repair bill on the barb and huge pot cost. Stop; I don't want to settle for less than perfect. If you want to stick with less than perfect then go hunt deer and live in a cave; it's fine, you don't need to improve yourself to be happy!

As for definition of perfectionism: speed, low cost, high yield--> do runs faster, with lower repairs, meaning killing pulls in one HF and bosses in 1 or 2, successful successive stealth warsongs and 15 minute lunars are a prime example. Back in the day 3 minute Nirvy runs were cool too. If we can lower the time further then we will work towards it. You can sit on your pretty little non-perfectionistic butt and try to be high and mighty for being un-pro, the rest of us will actually improve our lot.

b:dirtyb:dirtyb:dirty

*hands sever change scroll*

ovenusarmanio

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

There's a difference between people actually putting forth great effort into leveling their skills and upgrading their gears and those who do not. My point is that if one is failing SoT and Aba or whatever then they need to re-evaluate the reasons why or if they should even be in the instance in the 1st place. Most of the experienced people know why and reject those they feel most unlikely to complete the instance for whatever reasons. I'm actually very tolerant and lenient to people wanting to join my squads for cultis. We as a team understand and expect those players to underperform due to lower grade gears and inexperience. I've mentioned this in many of my posts. But when it comes to routine daily events like BH every squad member ought to know by then what to expect and what is expected from them. If they cannot put out then they are kicked out.

Who wants an EP in BH SoT or Aba that has 7K HP when fully buffed and gets 1 shot through their own BB because they stat vit and have low grade not very refined gears? Who wants a BM at level 100 in BH delta what doesn't even know what HF (dragon skill) is because he never bothered to learn it? I could go on.

There are pressures to get from 1 to 100 fast. That's the very problem so many of us have with the game in its current state for the very reason that it promotes fast leveling but not fast experience and not fast accumulation of skills. I've played this veno since the game was 2 weeks out of beta and I leveled it slow as I went through every culti and learned every skill. Even if I had a few 8 month breaks and came back to a lot of changes there is no comparison for all my accumulated experience in from those years of game play to those who make a toon and level it to 100 in a month.

A major part of the game is learning how to make in-game coin. They have to figure that out in a big way. Either trade gold for coin to make it in-game. Skills are expensive in both experience and spirit as well as coin. PWE did a great disservice to the new players putting that kind of pressure on people to level. Unless they run marathon sessions of game playing I can't see how they can accumulate the skills and level them with all the cultis at the same pace they level from 1 to 100. If and when it comes to doing mainstream events like daily BHs et al if they aren't up to par they aren't much use for a squad especially in light of the revamped SoT and Aba.

I will berate and belittle those who refuse to comprehend that it's their own choices and styles of gameplay that is causing them the most difficulty. Most often it's just laziness.

Individuals do not choose the state of the game. The state of the game is what it is, and people can either adapt to the state of the game or be forever alone. That is their options. I don't care what you did in 2008, because its quite frankly irrelevant to now. The options available to you then, are not available now. Not through actual removal, but by inability to get people together to do it. I know you probably did not do it alone. You ran into other people. When BH came out, you learned how to do instances by doing all the little BHs that progressively teach you about game mechanics. So that you are prepared for high level content. Nothing can replace that experience, and it is experience that is no longer realistically available to everyone. Pretending it is available, and people are not doing it by choice is ridiculous. The game doesn't just encourage power leveling, the completely empty world map almost requires it. Even the questing system has been revamped so that you level faster than you necessarily ought to. Is that also their fault? You can't tell the reason a person is wearing TT99 just by seeing them in TT99. There are a multitude of different reasons. It's not rational to claim otherwise, it's observation bias leading to stereotypes. You remember the really bad players sticking out like sore thumb more, and you're reacting to that. But they stick out so clearly because they are not the norm. Otherwise you wouldn't be expecting such short BHs, they would be the kick butt exceptional experiences. Why should someone in the current situation know everything? There is a clear difference between not touching your character at all until 100. And having played the game though normally, not realizing the shortcomings of doing so. I mean, BMs learn they need HF in FC. Clerics learn they need IH and purify. They might not learn things like not to overuse BB, or what equips to wear, or how to do things like interrupt boss aoes, etc etc. Or what bosses aoes are what damage. But they learn those basics. Even someone who FC'ed that far has no excuse for that. But those types of player are rare, and yeah they deserve to be kicked. Those are the exceptions, not the rule.

But there is a difference between not feeling like helping someone learn, because you want to work with similarly geared people to improve efficiency, achieve perfection, etc. And treating people badly just because they are not at the exact same place you are. A huge one. One is just you being you, and one is attempting to manipulate someone elses behavior. Some of those people fall in-line, and some of those people quit. And when new players quit, we all lose. Game can't survive without them. They can't rely on endgame forever, and doing so is actually such a common cause for death of F2P MMos that it's become a trope. We vets need to stop being so stuck in our ways that we don't see that some of these fail 100s are actually just new. And the game needs to start giving us incentives to interact with these players. When I make squads I take everyone. I don't even check gear until they start sucking, for the most part. When they do suck, it's often because they just don't know what the heck they are doing. If they open to learning, I don't mind. I also hate the don't tell me how to play my class people, in bad gear, or ruin a run. I'm quicker to kick them as well. I just think there is a big difference between willful ignorance and just playing normal and not being as well geared yet. And that you can't tell which the person is until you run a bit with them. IT usually makes itself clear before the boss anyway.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You realize, of course, that my mentioning of my ideal run was in no way an attempt to hijack the thread. >_> I was only pointing out to you that we all have our favorite ways of running BH (which is the point of the thread). Funny how the phrase "high and mighty" comes out towards the only person that isn't favoring gear elitism. -_-

Gear elitism = DERP DERP DERP NEED MOAR R999 TO RUN DIS
Skill Elitism = Dude, play your class right for ****'s sake

I've tanked BHs in a TT99 BB plenty of times, so I'm going to assume you're referring to Lunar because none of the others would pose a significant challenge to that squad. Honestly, Lunar has some very questionable design choices in it. It's certainly tougher than the other four, leading to the question (in my mind anyway) of what gear it was really designed for... especially seeing as it originally came out before R9 or g16 nirv did.

Nerfed Lunar can be farmed in tt90 greens dude.

Full disclosure, I don't do Lunar much. Not because I can't... but because even if the run does only last 15 minutes, there are better uses of my time. I could run Cube in 15 minutes and get a PoF worth 500k, which is about as much as your 25% chance at 2/5mil from BH is worth (and I care almost nothing for the badges). There's several reasons people tend to skip BH on Lunar day (even after the 3mil entry fee became a non-issue due to EoDs).

People skip lunar cause random derps who dont know how to play ruin squads.

But frankly, I'm at a loss as to where your scorn is really coming from. I don't fault people for wanting to do runs fast. I run with them all the time. Some of them are my friends. More often they're ranting, whining, complaining about this or that, as if they were entitled to a five minute run solely in the company of people as broken as they are. But you know what? Through all that, I can at least identify with people I don't agree with. Near as I can tell, you're making no such attempt.

You willingly put yourself between the angry mob of decent players and the autistic shambling swarm of *******, and you expect to not catch a pitchfork or 2 in the chest?

Inb4ignorantarcher

Jadsia - Lost City

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Individuals do not choose the state of the game. The state of the game is what it is, and people can either adapt to the state of the game or be forever alone. That is their options. I don't care what you did in 2008, because its quite frankly irrelevant to now. The options available to you then, are not available now. Not through actual removal, but by inability to get people together to do it. I know you probably did not do it alone. You ran into other people. When BH came out, you learned how to do instances by doing all the little BHs that progressively teach you about game mechanics. So that you are prepared for high level content. Nothing can replace that experience, and it is experience that is no longer realistically available to everyone. Pretending it is available, and people are not doing it by choice is ridiculous. The game doesn't just encourage power leveling, the completely empty world map almost requires it. Even the questing system has been revamped so that you level faster than you necessarily ought to. Is that also their fault? You can't tell the reason a person is wearing TT99 just by seeing them in TT99. There are a multitude of different reasons. It's not rational to claim otherwise, it's observation bias leading to stereotypes. You remember the really bad players sticking out like sore thumb more, and you're reacting to that. But they stick out so clearly because they are not the norm. Otherwise you wouldn't be expecting such short BHs, they would be the kick butt exceptional experiences. Why should someone in the current situation know everything? There is a clear difference between not touching your character at all until 100. And having played the game though normally, not realizing the shortcomings of doing so. I mean, BMs learn they need HF in FC. Clerics learn they need IH and purify. They might not learn things like not to overuse BB, or what equips to wear, or how to do things like interrupt boss aoes, etc etc. Or what bosses aoes are what damage. But they learn those basics. Even someone who FC'ed that far has no excuse for that. But those types of player are rare, and yeah they deserve to be kicked. Those are the exceptions, not the rule.

But there is a difference between not feeling like helping someone learn, because you want to work with similarly geared people to improve efficiency, achieve perfection, etc. And treating people badly just because they are not at the exact same place you are. A huge one. One is just you being you, and one is attempting to manipulate someone elses behavior. Some of those people fall in-line, and some of those people quit. And when new players quit, we all lose. Game can't survive without them. They can't rely on endgame forever, and doing so is actually such a common cause for death of F2P MMos that it's become a trope. We vets need to stop being so stuck in our ways that we don't see that some of these fail 100s are actually just new. And the game needs to start giving us incentives to interact with these players. When I make squads I take everyone. I don't even check gear until they start sucking, for the most part. When they do suck, it's often because they just don't know what the heck they are doing. If they open to learning, I don't mind. I also hate the don't tell me how to play my class people, in bad gear, or ruin a run. I'm quicker to kick them as well. I just think there is a big difference between willful ignorance and just playing normal and not being as well geared yet. And that you can't tell which the person is until you run a bit with them. IT usually makes itself clear before the boss anyway.

SO now we come to a point when the devs make changes to instances like SoT and Aba that make them more challenging and we have a bunch of people come running to the forums QQing demands that they be nerfed back to the way they were. Why? So they don't have an incentive to upgrade their gears and skills? Look at what these people are QQing about in the forums. QQing about how impossible it is to do SoT and Aba now. It's not impossible if they take some initiative to improve their skills and gear like the rest of us did. If some is poorly statted or has sub par gear and skills to a point they claim it's impossible to run the instances then they have no business running the instances until they improve their char's status. It only takes one person to **** an entire squad in SoT and Aba. Maybe an EP that gets 1 shot through their BB or a barb that doesn't have any skills higher than the 79 set. I've been arguing with someone who seems obsessed with TT99 gears when it's much easier to make them into 2nd cast NV than it was to even make the TT99 in the 1st place.

My point is very simple. The new content is designed to encourage people to level up and gear up and improve their skills. That's what I did so I can function in the mainstream element of the game within my char's level and I expect the same of others. I do belittle people who demand to revert the game back to what it was instead of working hard to improve their char's status to a level that will enable them to successfully complete the instance runs. I find the attitude and reasoning behind their arguments appalling and disrespectful to those of us who worked so hard on our char's status to succeed in the new challenges. By design FB99 is an end game instance should be treated as such. Do we want playerbase who are determined to improved the status of their chars so they can make successful instance runs or do we want those who QQ about how impossible these new instances are and make excuses for not having the ambition to improve their char's status and demand that the new instances be nerfed so they won't have any incentive to even do so? I for one do not want the latter dictating the direction of the game.

If someone wanted to level and quest in the open map the old way that is still very much possible. Most of the original content from the game's beginning for those levels is still there. Sure they nerfed coin from DQ but added a Jones daily to make up for it. It only takes a squad of 6 to do BH or cultis up to 90.

But yeah, as it is now the game does encourage power leveling but that comes at a heavy price and a responsibility too. As individuals we may not choose the state of the game but it's up to us to adapt to it and its changes or blow away in the wind.

ovenusarmanio

And catering to only one small group of players that tend to drive away your new customers, is not good game design or business. It's called pandering to the base, and it's a common cause of death of many MMOs. This game has GOT to change it's mentality and stop giving everything over to the endgame players. BH was something that people new and old, meh geared and highly geared could all do quickly and easily for a bit of coin. This gave people with good gear money to get cosmetic stuff and pay for pots and such. And people with meh gear money to save up so they could move to the good gear bracket. And it's only with this patch that this has changed. It's not a positive one, and there is plenty of other things they could have changed to encourage people to have less restrictive squads for the more simpler content. It's not a slap in the face to have content for new players, content for old players, content for PVPers, content for people just now gearing up, and content for people who are established and have their gear. There should be some kind of progression. It shouldn't be fling you into the 100 stuff and then having people scream at you instantaneously for not already being established. It's not good game design, and these restrictive squads may seem like a necessity to you. But realize that's because of bad game design, and not because of anything the players are doing wrong. It's impossible for every single person to be in exact same stage you are unless the game is actually dead an there are no new level 100s.

tweakz

Neferhotep - Lost City wrote: »

How about just having fun with playing the game instead of only having fun with getting coins and molds?

You aren't really playing during the times that you're waiting for that sin who died to return to the boss so you can kill it. You aren't really playing when you have to wait for a cleric to come res a squad wipe (often caused by a poorly geared player that got hit by AoE and a squad that begs for their revival). I'm also not really playing if I'm sitting there in Dragon's Breath on Wiz tanking when others are off derping 1-1. Shorter runs are funner runs.

If you prefer doing only runs with top-geared people and the only thing you enjoy about it is the reward you get,ithen do it.

I don't recall anyone complaining about non top geared people. What we are complaining about includes people who make a run take longer than it would without them.

But there are others who wanna try out if they can do it with their current gear, maybe because its a challenge, maybe because they dont have the money to improve their gear yet. Seriously, just say that you only want g15+ in WC shout and everything is fine.

Then you get the real elitist snobs that won't join because you're being too picky and they could "solo" it so they don't see why you would exclude people. Most of the people doing it in minimalist gears are serial about it. Otherwise it wouldn't be bothering some of us.

G15 isn't a good marker either. My assassins use a G13 dagger, but it's +12 and -.1 int. Someone asked me why I hadn't upgraded my AA G15 shirt on my mages. It's freakin' +10, well sharded, and I'm already able to tank every BH boss with ease! Someone asked why I +10'd a G13 cape (Wings of Cloud Charger) -That's my main cape still and at the time it was one of the best. I see people running around in G16 gears that can't tank ****. My BM and Barb's equips could use the coin more efficiently; so that's where it goes.


********************

Speaking of the qq'ing about the new BH Aba in other posts: 2 of the 8 runs I did last time were done w/o taking a single hit from the falling things, and w/o Holy Path or speed pots. I also saw a 24k+ HP sin go down to under 9k HP -Just saying it's not totally equipment related. -It's lazy related.

The means to make coin is still there. Quests pay more now, oils, herbs, and hay sell for much more now. I'd guess that most of the coin for my veno to get a Herc came from buying and selling Source of Force and Phoenix Feathers! -I don't think that ability has changed.

Nenor - Dreamweaver

I dont think most people are complaining to nerf the new hellfire/SoT boss. I think most people are saying "put the old hellfire back for culti/fb purposes and leave the new hellfire for the Weekly quest."

tweakz

Nenor - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I dont think most people are complaining to nerf the new hellfire/SoT boss. I think most people are saying "put the old hellfire back for culti/fb purposes and leave the new hellfire for the Weekly quest."

I think people are forgetting here that the exp, and rep were no longer incentives to help people with their culti. Now they have the weekly, better book drop rates, and a fresh experience as incentive.

Nenor - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

I think people are forgetting here that the exp, and rep were no longer incentives to help people with their culti. Now they have the weekly, better book drop rates, and a fresh experience as incentive.

eh, idk, i just helped someone today with their fb. makes no difference to me about the instance or bosses. I just do it to help out. it never was alot of rep to begin with. nothing 1 man army couldnt net you in a short time, along with dog tags. the xp never was really a factor either. such a small amount when you need a bill + xp.

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

SO now we come to a point when the devs make changes to instances like SoT and Aba that make them more challenging and we have a bunch of people come running to the forums QQing demands that they be nerfed back to the way they were. Why? So they don't have an incentive to upgrade their gears and skills? Look at what these people are QQing about in the forums. QQing about how impossible it is to do SoT and Aba now. It's not impossible if they take some initiative to improve their skills and gear like the rest of us did. If some is poorly statted or has sub par gear and skills to a point they claim it's impossible to run the instances then they have no business running the instances until they improve their char's status. It only takes one person to **** an entire squad in SoT and Aba. Maybe an EP that gets 1 shot through their BB or a barb that doesn't have any skills higher than the 79 set. I've been arguing with someone who seems obsessed with TT99 gears when it's much easier to make them into 2nd cast NV than it was to even make the TT99 in the 1st place.

i think you fail to realize something bout the changes that were made to aba and Sot and that one of the real reasons why the devs decided to revamp those two instances was not entirely to make it more challenging but to rather keep up with the constant gear changes that could blast through those instances in a matter of minutes and for those that were using Sot and Aba to farm for skill books while the rest of us got nothing except the crumbs off the dinner table. the new Aba/Sot are not impossible to run, but on the contrary they are alot harder to survive on and you say that this is a lesson on players who dont want to gear up and improve their skills? id think again miss "high and mighty" or is that a phrase that ya liked putting back on miugre from earlier. the new fb99 instances were revamped cause of the lack of challenge to overly high geared players while the rest of us who are undergeared get the worst beating out of it. its like the hero of a novel or movie escaping instant death and leaving it without a scratch. so id think twice with your big, bad miss "high and mighty" attitude. Plus it doesnt take 1 person to ruin a squad entirely, if ya got a full squad of 10 for Aba/Sot, than the one who is not "carrying their weight" should either be given the chance to make a change "if they are willing to" or to kick em if they still arent willing to do something accurate. i think ya got too much of the thought of everyone who gets 1 shotted a noob compared to a newb. im sure you find more noobs at bh 100s than you do newbs but not all deserve to be kicked cause they arent up to your expectations. If 1 person can survive the hardest aoe hit (cleric wise ofc) than you should give em credit for making an effort stead of branding everyone who might not survive an aoe hit a noob cause they are unfit for the challenge.

My point is very simple. The new content is designed to encourage people to level up and gear up and improve their skills. That's what I did so I can function in the mainstream element of the game within my char's level and I expect the same of others. I do belittle people who demand to revert the game back to what it was instead of working hard to improve their char's status to a level that will enable them to successfully complete the instance runs. I find the attitude and reasoning behind their arguments appalling and disrespectful to those of us who worked so hard on our char's status to succeed in the new challenges. By design FB99 is an end game instance should be treated as such. Do we want playerbase who are determined to improved the status of their chars so they can make successful instance runs or do we want those who QQ about how impossible these new instances are and make excuses for not having the ambition to improve their char's status and demand that the new instances be nerfed so they won't have any incentive to even do so? I for one do not want the latter dictating the direction of the game.

again from the top, the new content was designed to combat the higher geared players (OP ones). think id rather belittle someone who has possibly a big ego on their shoulders and that it should be cut down to size. let me answer that question for ya, do we want the playerbase to improve their gear to meet certain requirements? obviously yes. Do we want ppl to "QQ" bout how impossible it is with these new instances by saying they are making excuses to not improve their skill and gear so they wont have the "incentive" to upgrade? not all are complaining bout the new instances being impossible to run, but on the latter they are only saying how more difficult it has become since the update. I for one would like to see these two instances returned to normal and not cause im undergeared, but cause alot of the quests that alot of us want to complete are almost if not completely impossible to do. if you want a maze of falling rocks, traps and dangers go play an adventure game instead. pw is not an adventure game its a chinese medieval rpg.

If someone wanted to level and quest in the open map the old way that is still very much possible. Most of the original content from the game's beginning for those levels is still there. Sure they nerfed coin from DQ but added a Jones daily to make up for it. It only takes a squad of 6 to do BH or cultis up to 90.

questing and leveling on the world map the old way has gotten alot easier that a monkey could do it in a few weeks. the original content is still there yes, but they have made it shorter cause alot of the trolls were QQing bout how they dont like having to go kill X # of mobs or kill and collect quests that the devs shortened it. Even though jolly jones was added to compensate for the dq nerf it still hasnt helped the problem. it only has made it worse than it already is.

But yeah, as it is now the game does encourage power leveling but that comes at a heavy price and a responsibility too. As individuals we may not choose the state of the game but it's up to us to adapt to it and its changes or blow away in the wind.

the state of the game is what the players want it to be as much as what the players turn it out to be. the players still make a choice regardless to adapt to it. but the new revamped instances is something that we as a playerbase shouldnt have to adapt to just cause the devs added it as new content. the original Sot and Aba were fine the way it was till it got changed. if the devs wanted to change fb99 then they should of done it a different way stead of revamping it. But we should be given the option to choose which form we want for sot and aba. if they were going to change it at least give an option from an npc outside of those instances to either have it the new way or the old way. I think alot of players could get behind this one.

PS: Ive been into aba least twice now and those who do divine quests for aba and sot cant complete em now that they revamped the instances. ya would need someone with like 40-50k hp and super OP gear just to reach em.

Jadsia - Lost City

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

And catering to only one small group of players that tend to drive away your new customers, is not good game design or business. It's called pandering to the base, and it's a common cause of death of many MMOs. This game has GOT to change it's mentality and stop giving everything over to the endgame players. BH was something that people new and old, meh geared and highly geared could all do quickly and easily for a bit of coin. This gave people with good gear money to get cosmetic stuff and pay for pots and such. And people with meh gear money to save up so they could move to the good gear bracket. And it's only with this patch that this has changed. It's not a positive one, and there is plenty of other things they could have changed to encourage people to have less restrictive squads for the more simpler content. It's not a slap in the face to have content for new players, content for old players, content for PVPers, content for people just now gearing up, and content for people who are established and have their gear. There should be some kind of progression. It shouldn't be fling you into the 100 stuff and then having people scream at you instantaneously for not already being established. It's not good game design, and these restrictive squads may seem like a necessity to you. But realize that's because of bad game design, and not because of anything the players are doing wrong. It's impossible for every single person to be in exact same stage you are unless the game is actually dead an there are no new level 100s.

PWE caters to the cash shoppers. This game began that spiral into the abyss years ago when the company released anniversary packs. Then had to trump that debacle with rank and medals of glory sales. However with that said anyone still has the ability to get decent current high end gear that is more than adequate for the revamped instances from the game's environment. That is with the NW rewards, full HH (TT), lunar, and WS runs. That's where my OP gear came from. When I came back to the game last march I had a mix of g12 and g11 gears and my veno was statted for heavy armor. This obviously was not going to work in the game's current state so I had to make changes. I worked hard to farm HH (TT) to make a full TT99 set and then ran full WS until I got all the molds to make a full 3rd cast set. I did my weekly NW events for the cannies and raps. It took 2 and a half months of effort to get everything up to speed. If I can do this without dumpling my money into the game then anyone can. As I said it's so much easier to make 1st, 2,nd, and 3rd cast NV gears from TT99 gears than it is to make the TT99 sets. There's no excuse to not upgrade when it's so easy and cheap to do.

I don't expect others to be at my exact stage in the game. I expect them to improve their char's status so they can contribute to the squads they join as much as everyone else does. I expect them to challenge themselves to improve their chars status rather than run off to the forums and pile on the QQ about how hard the revamped instances are.

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i think you fail to realize something bout the changes that were made to aba and Sot and that one of the real reasons why the devs decided to revamp those two instances was not entirely to make it more challenging but to rather keep up with the constant gear changes that could blast through those instances in a matter of minutes and for those that were using Sot and Aba to farm for skill books while the rest of us got nothing except the crumbs off the dinner table. the new Aba/Sot are not impossible to run, but on the contrary they are alot harder to survive on and you say that this is a lesson on players who dont want to gear up and improve their skills?

Yes. As I said many times already the devs made it so easy and cheap to get decent high end gear that is more than adequate for these new instances from the game's environment. I farmed my g16 3rd cast NV gears. I'm hardly OP in the grand scheme of things. If anything my gear is average. It doesn't take rocket science or a credit card to get the 275 cannies per armor and 250 raps per weapon to upgrade TT99 to my level and have something decent enough to use in the revamped instances. As far as accepting crumbs, if that is what people are willing to settle for then that's their problem. Nobody is going to let it become everyone else's problem too when it comes to creating squads.

id think again miss "high and mighty" or is that a phrase that ya liked putting back on miugre from earlier. the new fb99 instances were revamped cause of the lack of challenge to overly high geared players while the rest of us who are undergeared get the worst beating out of it. its like the hero of a novel or movie escaping instant death and leaving it without a scratch. so id think twice with your big, bad miss "high and mighty" attitude. Plus it doesnt take 1 person to ruin a squad entirely, if ya got a full squad of 10 for Aba/Sot, than the one who is not "carrying their weight" should either be given the chance to make a change "if they are willing to" or to kick em if they still arent willing to do something accurate. i think ya got too much of the thought of everyone who gets 1 shotted a noob compared to a newb. im sure you find more noobs at bh 100s than you do newbs but not all deserve to be kicked cause they arent up to your expectations. If 1 person can survive the hardest aoe hit (cleric wise ofc) than you should give em credit for making an effort stead of branding everyone who might not survive an aoe hit a noob cause they are unfit for the challenge.


An EP in another thread whose duty is to BB and keep the squad alive was QQing because it gets one shot through the BB. If the party healers dies what do you think happens to everyone else? This EP claimed to have 7K HP fully buffed. One person can take a squad down.

Making effort is meaningless if leads to constant failure. One could make all the effort in the world and accomplish nothing if they are too lazy to improve gear and skills and adapt to the new changes to the game.

ovenusarmanio

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

PWE caters to the cash shoppers. This game began that spiral into the abyss years ago when the company released anniversary packs. Then had to trump that debacle with rank and medals of glory sales. However with that said anyone still has the ability to get decent current high end gear that is more than adequate for the revamped instances from the game's environment. That is with the NW rewards, full HH (TT), lunar, and WS runs. That's where my OP gear came from. When I came back to the game last march I had a mix of g12 and g11 gears and my veno was statted for heavy armor. This obviously was not going to work in the game's current state so I had to make changes. I worked hard to farm HH (TT) to make a full TT99 set and then ran full WS until I got all the molds to make a full 3rd cast set. I did my weekly NW events for the cannies and raps. It took 2 and a half months of effort to get everything up to speed. If I can do this without dumpling my money into the game then anyone can. As I said it's so much easier to make 1st, 2,nd, and 3rd cast NV gears from TT99 gears than it is to make the TT99 sets. There's no excuse to not upgrade when it's so easy and cheap to do.

I don't expect others to be at my exact stage in the game. I expect them to improve their char's status so they can contribute to the squads they join as much as everyone else does. I expect them to challenge themselves to improve their chars status rather than run off to the forums and pile on the QQ about how hard the revamped instances are.

If you look at someone in TT99 and claim anythign about them otehr than they are TT99. Then that's not true. You want them to already be improved, not improving. Big Difference. Otherwise you wouldn't demand their gear already be improved. You'd be fine that some people are in the beginning stage of gear, some are in the middle, and some are endgame. Many people do things like BH for the raps and cannies to improve their gear, because NW isn't in a good timezone for them. And TT and FWS aren't options for them until they gear up a bit.

You want new customers, you do things to invite them in. New customers now are cashshoppers tomorrow. That's the proper way to run a business. This update is bad because it's encouraging this type of mindset for a daily event that was at first one of the best things to get new and old, established and new, endgame and average geared working together. It was only for a few minutes a day, it was just ONE event, but the rewards were sufficient enough that it was highly effective. IT doesn't matter how hard you worked for your gear, it shouldn't entitle to have every single last thing in the game completed by only those who have already done it. If they want to phase out old content, they should have some type of content that allows you to progress appropriately into the new content. They could even make legacy editions of older content for example, that lets you get increased rewards for doing the older content just to get people doing it and doing it at level. This will give those people a real way to get the income and gaming experience necessary where they aren't learning the ropes at level 100 just by playing the game the way people currently play it.

BH was lower tiered content, and now randomly they've inserted content into it that is encouraging people to be rude and condescending to people who aren't already improved. I know so many people that say if it wasn't for factions and friends, they wouldn't be playing anymore. A lot of those people met these friends doing things like BH. But that's how new players and newly level 100 characters find factions and friends that will make this game worth playing. All I'm saying that is while I can understand why you wouldn't them in your squad, I think it's quite another thing to say nobody else should want them either and be condescending toward them or belittle them in threads like these just because other people advocate taking them into their runs. I don't like taking people who are just plain bad and want to stay bad either, but that's not everyone. Many do want to improve, and I think it's worth letting people prove themselves or (prove themselves to be terrible) by taking them along. These people usually make themselves obvious well before any bosses anyway. :P I mean I suppose it wouldn't be a big deal to allow SOT to fall into a deader BH day if not everyone should do it, but I think excluding them entirely and encouraging others to exclude them too just seems like something the playerbase has been doing as whole. For a long time now, and while I always had a problem with it. I think the problem is getting worse as time goes on....and more updates roll out without any recourse for these people getting chased away from game.

An EP in another thread whose duty is to BB and keep the squad alive was QQing because it gets one shot through the BB. If the party healers dies what do you think happens to everyone else? This EP claimed to have 7K HP fully buffed. One person can take a squad down.

Making effort is meaningless if leads to constant failure. One could make all the effort in the world and accomplish nothing if they are too lazy to improve gear and skills and adapt to the new changes to the game.

The cleric in GD was also a returning player that had not played the game in a long time. He didn't have the gear because he hadn't had the time to get it. They just expressed displeasure that they have to gear up to help with something like a 99 culti, it's a valid criticism for the aforementioned reasons. But this thread isn't about just SOT, this about forming squads in general. If you only have a problem with SOT, why not have just said as such. This thread makes it seem like people in TT99 shouldn't be taken into any level 100+ content, despite the fact it's only level below and is required to upgrade into good gear.

Haila - Sanctuary

OP just want ppl like himself who can rush bh's in a few minutes, so he can finish all his alt bh's faster b:laugh

Jadsia - Lost City

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

The cleric in GD was also a returning player that had not played the game in a long time. He didn't have the gear because he hadn't had the time to get it. They just expressed displeasure that they have to gear up to help with something like a 99 culti, it's a valid criticism for the aforementioned reasons. But this thread isn't about just SOT, this about forming squads in general. If you only have a problem with SOT, why not have just said as such. This thread makes it seem like people in TT99 shouldn't be taken into any level 100+ content, despite the fact it's only level below and is required to upgrade into good gear.

This is about making squads. It's about squad survivability. The level 99 instance means that level 99 toons and gears are entry level for them. Considering how easy it is to level to 100 and get level 15 gears and refines these days I would be highly disappointed if the game's design made it so that players with entry level toons and gears can herp derp those 2 instances especially since they are end game.

SoT and Aba both are now relevant because PWE changed the game by moving the goal posts so to speak. But they also gave us more then enough ways in-game to get gear that is adequate enough to survive the revamped instances. As you mentioned earlier what we could do in the past is now irrelevant.

PWE is moving the goal posts. If people want to participate then they just have to adapt and go with the flow of things. I don't want a stagnant game.

When I returned to the game after a long break and noticed how far behind I was I didn't complain in the forums about how weak and broke I was. I got in there and worked hard to catch up. I expect others to be able to do the same. It was difficult and time consuming but the effort was necessary if I wanted to get back into the main stream of things.

tweakz

8 runs on metal today, and only one person I found poorly equipped for the job: The person making the squad was farming Basic Badges as cleric. Their cleric had 7.7k MP, and a +2 G12 PvE weapon and other G12 PvE gears. If farming Basic Badges like that wasn't clue enough: this cleric had the same weapon within the first 30 days that Morai came out (quite some time). I was on a toon that was relatively unaffected, and they never asked for mirages so I stayed.

Do the people calling others elitists think that the above real and common example is a-ok? -Is it ok to be so poorly equipped for an instance that if everyone else was so poorly equipped: you wouldn't possibly be able to get it done barring the use of expensive pots or an incredible amount of time?

When I returned to the game after a long break and noticed how far behind I was I didn't complain in the forums about how weak and broke I was. I got in there and worked hard to catch up. I expect others to be able to do the same.

-This: most of the people playing are responsible like this. What's wrong with expecting it of everyone?

Desdi - Sanctuary

Meh, I only don't like squading with people or alts of people who have never improved their gear even though they had plenty of opportunities to do so, and if I catch them having some luxurious mount or latest pack fashion then I know where the money went to. As a player that has been around for a very long time I can easily spot some of these people.

You can say that I can just avoid them but I'm not always the one making the squad; sometimes it's a friend putting it together and sometimes I just happen to join a random squad, which I try to do on a regular basis because running only with people you know is not always good. You get too used to the teamwork/playstyle and don't gain new experience.

You can say that people can play the game in whatever way they want and if buying fashion is what they like then go ahead but then you have undergeared people that are underperforming and you end up having to burn your charm or other resources..then it does frustrate you to know that you only helped those people so they can get the latest flyer, not improve their own gear.

What someone would consider a player undergeared and underperforming is up to debate and differs from player to player so I'll leave it at that.

I do agree with Venus however, when it comes to judging a person you haven't seen before just by their gear then it is a little unfair. That person might have just hit 100 or maybe they just returned after a break that may or may not have been their choice (real life matters). I do see Jadsia's point too though; some people just come on here (or just ingame) and complain instead of try to work on catching up (no, I'm not pointing to anyone in particular).

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

holy wall of texts....