Preferences when building a squad or joining one

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is why I said "maybe the choice of gear pieces and instances that PW has updated/introduced are not very smart".

My post was also not directed at you unless you associated the part where I was talking about "proving" with what you wrote earlier but that's not what I had in mind.

I was full G16 Nirvana not too long ago and I still found a lot of things challenging, including the BHs unless I happened to be in a squad filled with R999 people so I don't see how it would be a cakewalk unless we're specifically talking about lower BHs. Either way, that's really personal views and whatnot that I won't go into.

I suppose if all that someone cares about doing is BH and doesn't want to participate in new activities that may or may not require better gear, they don't need to improve but alas we recently had SoT/Abaddon revamped.

I'm not looking to turn things into cakewalk and I'm not a R999+12 JOSD person either I have R999 +7 and still find plenty of things challenging to me or perhaps I just try out new things and find new ways of doing things and new challenges, I don't know. Never have I felt like I'm causing an overkill unless I was running in some low level instance. Again, unless i'm in a squad with lots of R999 but that's not always the case.

Dragging me down? When you have that healer not being able to heal inadequately and the tank has to spam pots/genie at a boss that isn't -that- hard to do or that DD keeps dying and slows down the squad then yes that is dragging down. Mind you, I know there is a difference between skill and gear but skill can only really get you so far and trust me I've been in this game long enough, I had average gear once and my skills could only help me survive so much.

Let's just agree to disagree I guess.

I've found very few situations in which I couldn't survive with my original gear on my archer. My barb hit endgame at around 14k and had a few difficulties, but once I acheived his original goal of 16k (before restatting to pure vit) he could tank most of them just fine. My archer at the time had about 5k HP unbuffed (with 50 base vit). It was on these two characters that I learned the endgame BHs; and without wishing to sound egotistical, I believe that this perspective, which some would consider "gear-challenged," actually gave me a more realistic view of the challenge level the endgame BHs are supposed to present.

I'm honestly, sincerely glad you can find a challenge in BH at r9s3+7. However, I don't believe I could find the same level of challenge on my characters with that same gear.

Of course we can agree to disagree on our personal tastes. The problem is when people claim that others are unfit to be in BH squads due to their gear; essentially, enforcing their tastes on others by dressing them up as facts. Sorry to say, but if you're r9s3 and you won't let a tt99 into your squad because of gear, the problem isn't their inability to survive or contribute to the run; the problem is that you're enforcing unnecessary gear standards.

Would I run as the fabled 2.9k cleric? No, but that's mostly because I wouldn't be caught dead with a pure-magic character. :P If a person is completely unable to function in BH, then you advise them as best you can and, assuming they're willing to learn, point them to a few cheap gears which will do the job. But once they can do the job, it's not your business where their stats are placed or what gears/refines they may or may not have. Our only responsibility as experienced BH runners is to advise newbies of their options (assuming we want to advise them, rather than just kick them), ensure they can function, and leave the rest up to their personal tastes. Anything beyond that is just gear elitism.

EDIT: I should clarify that I'm using a generalized "you" in this post rather than you specifically, as I obviously don't know you in-game or how you personally handle your squads. :P

Joshcja - Sanctuary

MY new autokick:

OMG where I BB?

GUYZ get back in BB

Ima BB here

Y U out of BB

Need chi 4 BB

I hate you so much

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

MY new autokick:

OMG where I BB?

GUYZ get back in BB

Ima BB here

Y U out of BB

Need chi 4 BB

I hate you so much

So...... you'll kick them for not knowing where to BB... and you'll kick them for choosing their own spot to BB? o.o

When I run on barb, I always tell the cleric they can set up BB a little ways back from the barb. It's safer that way, I can make sure I'm ready to grab the boss without worrying about it walking into BB range. It's as if people are horribly afraid of the barb soaking one hit for running in and getting off Ream once. XD

Desdi - Sanctuary

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Of course we can agree to disagree on our personal tastes. The problem is when people claim that others are unfit to be in BH squads due to their gear; essentially, enforcing their tastes on others by dressing them up as facts. Sorry to say, but if you're r9s3 and you won't let a tt99 into your squad because of gear, the problem isn't their inability to survive or contribute to the run; the problem is that you're enforcing unnecessary gear standards.

EDIT: I should clarify that I'm using a generalized "you" in this post rather than you specifically, as I obviously don't know you in-game or how you personally handle your squads. :P

Yeah, I do understand that.
Though I personally don't necessarily reject people because of their gear (I mean, I used to have that gear once, being R999 now doesn't change who I am) unless they really really suck for whatever reason that can include both lack of gear and/or skill and my tolerance level is pretty high too so the only time I'd actually kick someone is if they really drive me nuts, for whatever reason.

I simply don't like the mentality of "good enough, no need to improve" which might have made my post seem aggressive though I honestly have no issues with someone in TT99 gear who can play well and utilize their skills etc. a lot of my friends used to be TT99 only once and never refused them.

Jadsia - Lost City

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Two problems with that:
1. Being a newbie is rite of passage, while being an idiot is a choice. If I see a Lv100 cleric with g12 morai, I'm not going to assume they're being willfully ignorant of the limits of their weapon. I'm going to assume that no one bothered to tell them the issue with that weapon, and I'm going to point them in the right direction in a patient manner. I will assume a newbie is an idiot only after they conclusively prove themselves worthy of the title. :P

2. Avoid using the word "proper" in this context, as it's extremely loaded. Different people have different definitions of the word, and I know a number of people who'd have your virtual head (myself included) for suggesting that a vit or vit-hybrid build doesn't fall under the umbrella of what's "proper."

Regarding stats and gears, if one is a "newbie" at level 100 then I rest my case here. That is the problem right there. By level 100 they ought to know by then what their goals for gear and how to stat their chars by then. After all they had 100 levels to practice, right? Uhhhh... whoops. I guess being frost babies really do mean they earn the negative stereotypes that are associated with it.

If being a 'newbie' is a right of passage then so is being a fail. One cannot attain passage by failing unless they are social moochers. That's why so many of us have problems with them. They need to level up, gear up, skill up or gtfo because we do not need them being a persistent burden in our instance runs. Being undergeared and underlevel in a culti is one thing but for BH runs, weekly SoT and Aba runs, Warsong and Lunar runs, etc. they are no use for us.

By the way, if one's definition of 'proper' means that they create a fail toon that can't run instances then they need to re-evaluate their definition of the word.

Eoria - Harshlands

Jadsia wrote:

Regarding stats and gears, if one is a "newbie" at level 100 then I rest my case here. That is the problem right there. By level 100 they ought to know by then what their goals for gear and how to stat their chars by then. After all they had 100 levels to practice, right? Uhhhh... whoops. I guess being frost babies really do mean they earn the negative stereotypes that are associated with it.

If being a 'newbie' is a right of passage then so is being a fail. One cannot attain passage by failing unless they are social moochers. That's why so many of us have problems with them. They need to level up, gear up, skill up or gtfo because we do not need them being a persistent burden in our instance runs. Being undergeared and underlevel in a culti is one thing but for BH runs, weekly SoT and Aba runs, Warsong and Lunar runs, etc. they are no use for us.

By the way, if one's definition of 'proper' means that they create a fail toon that can't run instances then they need to re-evaluate their definition of the word.

lmao, what sort of elitist bull**** is this? You're acting like someone isn't allowed to be unsure of where to go gear-wise at 100. Newsflash, not everyone is a ******n forum savant and sometimes you do need to guide people. I can understand how people can get confused about what to do gear-wise. ****, I still get confused as to what I should do next gear-wise sometimes and I'm full r9rr +10.

Now, once they get their g16 Nirv or whatever and have been told the correct sharding for their class and how to cheaply refine to +5 or so, then yeah, I don't think there's much excuse for them beyond being out of event gold or waiting to get some more money (for the mirages/cheapo shards like flawless or even exclusives). Then after that, they can decide what they want to do from there and get further help if they need.

tweakz

Nenor - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Pure mag verses mag/vit cleric brings back a discussion I had with someone on my server a couple yrs ago. I was pretty gung-ho that a cleric should be magic build.. then they said one thing that made me stop, pause and rethink.

A dead cleric can't heal anyone.

Granted, you maybe don't want a cleric with 250 magic and the rest vit at 100 +.. but a small bit of those magic points stated over into vit isn't going to make a difference except in that clerics own personal survival.

You could make this type of statement for any class to justify using cheap equips and statting vit. Often the reality is that they are simply using the build to get out of having to invest in that particular toon.

What I'm seeing is not that they can't afford it: it's that they refuse to until they have to. The vit clerics / wiz's / BMs / etc w/ tt90 weapons, G12 unrefined/sharded equips etc are the same ones months later and haven't changed a thing despite all the BH100 rewards and daily freebies.

If I have to pot tank for HP anyway: I'd rather have another dd.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

MY new autokick:

OMG where I BB?

GUYZ get back in BB

Ima BB here

Y U out of BB

Need chi 4 BB

I hate you so much

I feel you on that one. My barb had to show the cleric that they weren't needed on Leaf Rain Dryad before they moved.

However:

The conventional way isn't always best. Some bosses like the puppet boss should be pulled (I was actually asked why and to where and left the squad for such a stupid question from it's leader after 2 fails because of no pull). That pull however shouldn't be some idiot barb that runs up and reams it for the simple reason that a puppet is out by the time it comes back with the boss or it's buffed when it gets there.

The ideal pulls are done with a range attack. There is NO time wasted on a ranged pull! It's faster than rushing up to boss all at once and erupting. Why? - Because no one has to move. All erupt at same time (while boss is moving to us). All are finishing eruption as boss is in place. BH metal shouldn't be pulled. Clerics should be able to tank a few hits, and a sage veno can tank as well when applying sage soul degeneration.

It irritates me when I do a ranged pull for a barb and they have to stop the boss away from the squad.

Ranged pulls work great for BH SoT, and Aba because as a mage tank; I erupt to purify the bleed anyway. They also prevent that **** archer or mage from pulling the boss away from everyone else because it puts the boss on them.

Another convention already started is passing lead to an assassin after puppet boss. Someone said today that "normally the sin goes in stealth". -We've had this as BH maybe 4-5 time and have a normal already? I'm not going to handover lead to a stranger. On BM and Barb I can just run through the mobs to the NPC. Their hits are a joke anyway. Otherwise I can follow a tank to the NPC. It's not like the first few times when you had to tell the leader of the squad 10x to just talk to the npc (before, and during) and ignore the blooming mobs. On BM and Barb; I've had the squad clown tell me to pass lead to an Assassin after I told them 3 times to sit tight after boss and I'd take care of it. I've even had the squad follow me. =s

No wonder I get so cranky. lol

Neferhotep - Lost City

I usually dont take people ...
- who are pming me like "If you dont take me you wont find another one" or "Im betta cuz im 5 aps". If i have already a sage sin with r8 gear in squad and get pmd by a 5 aps sin while we actually need a healer or AoE dd, then that 5 aps sin can make his own squad. I wont kick someone who stayed in a squad for 20 mins for someone that has better gear, as long as the first person can do their job as well.

-who are standing around tellling everyone how they know the game, especially if they keep writing that annoying smiley "^^" ....... Seriously, i HATE that. Theres nothing ingame that makes me more aggresive than THAT smiley.
"No Sage is better than demon for a cleric ^^"
"Venomancer build is 3 mag and 2 Str^^"
"Sins can tank the boss better than a barb, i know it i have a sin as well ^^"
Usually they keep answering newbie questions with one-sided answers and if you try to tell them that its also a question of playstyles and personal preferences, they just say
"No its not^^"

-who pming or keep chatting in any language i dont understand. Of course i dont need perfect english as im not good at speaking it either, but theres NO reason in pming me with french or spanish words when i already told them that nobody understands it. There are moments when i suspect some french people on Morai that they dont know the servers merged.

- who are Mystics. Dont get me wrong, i LOVE Mystics. But its a class thats only great if you know how to play it, and most mystics i met were fails and refused to take any advice. I might be overreacting as my main was a mystic as well and i learned many things from the best mystic of our server the hard way xD

I think the only mystics i met who could play their class were actually playing cleric before. But there are so many Ex-Venos thinking Mystic is just an easier kind of veno and let their devil attacking every enemy while their just healing it.

Nenor - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

You could make this type of statement for any class to justify using cheap equips and statting vit. Often the reality is that they are simply using the build to get out of having to invest in that particular toon.

What I'm seeing is not that they can't afford it: it's that they refuse to until they have to. The vit clerics / wiz's / BMs / etc w/ tt90 weapons, G12 unrefined/sharded equips etc are the same ones months later and haven't changed a thing despite all the BH100 rewards and daily freebies.

If I have to pot tank for HP anyway: I'd rather have another dd.

I didn't say anything about weapons, i was talking about being a 1 shot, and statting enough vit so they wouldnt be. And i think there are people that dont understand that the morai weapon is bad for heals. Thats the ones you should whisper and tell why, ofc if you see the same person 3 months later with the same weapon, well, then thats a different story.
And id much rather have a cleric than can survive, say captivations aoes, than one who drops dead every aoe and has to run back while everyone runs out of aoe range leaving the barb to charm tank. Yea i've seen that happen ALOT of times, and its always the pure magic cleric that seems to happen to. If i notice a cleric dropping from captis aoes and has enough hp to survive, i will check the gear, most times they have elemental ornas on, in which case i whisper them and tell them to always wear phy resist ornas if they are healing for bh sot. No use to call them out in squad chat over it, and im sure they appreciate that fact and the advice on how not to die from the aoes.

I feel you on that one. My barb had to show the cleric that they weren't needed on Leaf Rain Dryad before they moved.

Why pull leaf or capti boss? Barb should be first in, for the initial damage, quick ream and cleric/rest of party should be right on his tail. Theres no reason to pull either of those bosses. When im tanking, if the cleric doesnt follow me in, they can stay way back there out of range if they want, but im not pulling it.

However:

The conventional way isn't always best. Some bosses like the puppet boss should be pulled (I was actually asked why and to where and left the squad for such a stupid question from it's leader after 2 fails because of no pull). That pull however shouldn't be some idiot barb that runs up and reams it for the simple reason that a puppet is out by the time it comes back with the boss or it's buffed when it gets there.

The ideal pulls are done with a range attack. There is NO time wasted on a ranged pull! It's faster than rushing up to boss all at once and erupting. Why? - Because no one has to move. All erupt at same time (while boss is moving to us). All are finishing eruption as boss is in place. BH metal shouldn't be pulled. Clerics should be able to tank a few hits, and a sage veno can tank as well when applying sage soul degeneration.

I have no idea why people pull bh snake boss, but i find it annoying. Same as above let the barb run in and ream it, cleric follow and set BB on about the 2nd step. Once bh snake is dead and you spawn the vile version, unless there is someone ranged and pulls it down the steps, viles stuns miss the cleric there. So far by doing that method, my cleric has been stunned once, and that was because we had a wiz in the group that moved him from his spawn point down to the steps where he was right on top my cleric.

It irritates me when I do a ranged pull for a barb and they have to stop the boss away from the squad.

Ranged pulls work great for BH SoT, and Aba because as a mage tank; I erupt to purify the bleed anyway. They also prevent that **** archer or mage from pulling the boss away from everyone else because it puts the boss on them.

Guessing your barb is demon for this one, as the bleed is hardly noticeable on my barb. (sage so no use to worry about bleed)

Another convention already started is passing lead to an assassin after puppet boss. Someone said today that "normally the sin goes in stealth". -We've had this as BH maybe 4-5 time and have a normal already? I'm not going to handover lead to a stranger. On BM and Barb I can just run through the mobs to the NPC. Their hits are a joke anyway. Otherwise I can follow a tank to the NPC. It's not like the first few times when you had to tell the leader of the squad 10x to just talk to the npc (before, and during) and ignore the blooming mobs. On BM and Barb; I've had the squad clown tell me to pass lead to an Assassin after I told them 3 times to sit tight after boss and I'd take care of it. I've even had the squad follow me. =s

This doesnt matter to me, if they want a sin to stealth, a barb to run through, or the squad to kill everything, all in all, its like 2 minutes difference time wise. So whatever they are up for doing is ok with me.

No wonder I get so cranky. lol
Yea, we all get days like that.

why are the forums being wonky for me today?b:sad

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So...... you'll kick them for not knowing where to BB... and you'll kick them for choosing their own spot to BB? o.o

When I run on barb, I always tell the cleric they can set up BB a little ways back from the barb. It's safer that way, I can make sure I'm ready to grab the boss without worrying about it walking into BB range. It's as if people are horribly afraid of the barb soaking one hit for running in and getting off Ream once. XD

What does IH do?

I cant IH boss aoe

Phys aoe I die

Need BB

Need BB

Guyz Y u on next mobs no BB

A tank holding aggro under BB gets **** for heals even at high refine's its useful for split aggro, damage reduction, or panic button. It is not the classes only heal or even their main heal/self damage reduction. Many if not all clerics these days just know how to BB and they're not even half competent at that. They even refuse to leave BB in a situation where NOT moving will cause squad wipe. Oh and they cant debuff/purify in BB either.

Yes I will get irate at somone for barely knowing how to use 1 button at level 100.

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

Then you have sins with high refined weapons and low refines on everything else, insisting on BB on non-AOE bosses because they'll die without it if they get aggro, and insisting on tanking.

ResiaTri - Heavens Tear

I personally have no preferences in terms of what classes I have in a squad with me. As the classes are only as good as the player playing them.

But if I had to choose, my ideal squad is this.

Barb as a tank
Cleric as the healer
Psy/Wiz/Sin as DD
Backup healer---Mystic or Cleric
Sin/BM/Seeker/Barb/Veno as a backup tank.

As that is what I'm mostly used to...however, I'm usually lucky enough, back when the game was still really actively played, to find great squads.

I can literally make ANYTHING work, as long as I have good people by my side.

Essentially, people who know what they're doing.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Then you have sins with high refined weapons and low refines on everything else, insisting on BB on non-AOE bosses because they'll die without it if they get aggro, and insisting on tanking.

BB reduces boss spike so no 1 shot and healing is unneeded here due to BP.

Low HP sin tank is the poster child scenario where BB is actually the best option on a boss.

Cant say skill isnt useful in a lot of corner cases and it makes a nice panic button.

Its just not the damn classes only skill.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Jadsia - Lost City wrote:

Regarding stats and gears, if one is a "newbie" at level 100 then I rest my case here. That is the problem right there. By level 100 they ought to know by then what their goals for gear and how to stat their chars by then. After all they had 100 levels to practice, right? Uhhhh... whoops. I guess being frost babies really do mean they earn the negative stereotypes that are associated with it.

If being a 'newbie' is a right of passage then so is being a fail. One cannot attain passage by failing unless they are social moochers. That's why so many of us have problems with them. They need to level up, gear up, skill up or gtfo because we do not need them being a persistent burden in our instance runs. Being undergeared and underlevel in a culti is one thing but for BH runs, weekly SoT and Aba runs, Warsong and Lunar runs, etc. they are no use for us.

Full WS is a fairly serious instance so not arguing with you there, but the others can be done by damn near any gear set as long as you know what you're doing.

But y'know, I'm not gonna draw this one out into a wall-o-text. I'll put the ball in your court instead. Tell me exactly how, in your words, a tt99 player is a "moocher" in any given BH squad... wait for it... without using any variation on the word "efficiency." :P

Go on, give me a reason that doesn't amount to "I want a 2min BH QQQQQQ." Make me believe it. :P

Jadsia - Lost City wrote:

By the way, if one's definition of 'proper' means that they create a fail toon that can't run instances then they need to re-evaluate their definition of the word.

That's some pro strawmanning right there. Seriously, grats. 10/10.

Now tell me where I ever said that proper = fail.

tweakz wrote: »

You could make this type of statement for any class to justify using cheap equips and statting vit. Often the reality is that they are simply using the build to get out of having to invest in that particular toon.

What I'm seeing is not that they can't afford it: it's that they refuse to until they have to. The vit clerics / wiz's / BMs / etc w/ tt90 weapons, G12 unrefined/sharded equips etc are the same ones months later and haven't changed a thing despite all the BH100 rewards and daily freebies.

If I have to pot tank for HP anyway: I'd rather have another dd.



I feel you on that one. My barb had to show the cleric that they weren't needed on Leaf Rain Dryad before they moved.

However:

The conventional way isn't always best. Some bosses like the puppet boss should be pulled (I was actually asked why and to where and left the squad for such a stupid question from it's leader after 2 fails because of no pull). That pull however shouldn't be some idiot barb that runs up and reams it for the simple reason that a puppet is out by the time it comes back with the boss or it's buffed when it gets there.

The ideal pulls are done with a range attack. There is NO time wasted on a ranged pull! It's faster than rushing up to boss all at once and erupting. Why? - Because no one has to move. All erupt at same time (while boss is moving to us). All are finishing eruption as boss is in place. BH metal shouldn't be pulled. Clerics should be able to tank a few hits, and a sage veno can tank as well when applying sage soul degeneration.

It irritates me when I do a ranged pull for a barb and they have to stop the boss away from the squad.

Ranged pulls work great for BH SoT, and Aba because as a mage tank; I erupt to purify the bleed anyway. They also prevent that **** archer or mage from pulling the boss away from everyone else because it puts the boss on them.

Another convention already started is passing lead to an assassin after puppet boss. Someone said today that "normally the sin goes in stealth". -We've had this as BH maybe 4-5 time and have a normal already? I'm not going to handover lead to a stranger. On BM and Barb I can just run through the mobs to the NPC. Their hits are a joke anyway. Otherwise I can follow a tank to the NPC. It's not like the first few times when you had to tell the leader of the squad 10x to just talk to the npc (before, and during) and ignore the blooming mobs. On BM and Barb; I've had the squad clown tell me to pass lead to an Assassin after I told them 3 times to sit tight after boss and I'd take care of it. I've even had the squad follow me. =s

No wonder I get so cranky. lol

No, I think the reason you get cranky is just that you're a shameless perfectionist. :P Seriously, do you even read your own posts? The barb can't ream-pull because of, what, a 10 second delay tops... archer/wiz can't steal even temporarily... all the DDs spark as the boss approaches... and then there's you, "mage tanking" and sparking off the bleed. Really?? Is this a game or a military operation?

You do realize that when you have any randoms in the squad, they aren't gonna want to conform to your personal vision of how the run should be conducted, right? I'm not saying there aren't conventions to follow, but the minute anyone breaks from them is not time to sound the alarm bells. I'd give you the benefit of the doubt here but, having run with you myself and seeing firsthand your tendency to ragequit at the slightest provocation, I can totally believe you'd want to run a squad like that.

Then there's the issue of passing lead to a sin to stealth-warp which basically boils down to "QQ I don't trust anyone." What are they going to do, kick everyone and leave themselves in the instance to solo Leaf Rain? Assuming they even could, worst case scenario is you're out 5min of your life to put the squad back together without him and do Puppeteer again, and you have a new name for your BH blacklist.

Better yet, how about shutting off PWI and firing up a different game entirely. Knowing you...... maybe an RTS. Y'know, super-strategic gameplay with little to no room for error, plus you get to micromanage everyone. You'll love it.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote:

What does IH do?

I cant IH boss aoe

Phys aoe I die

Need BB

Need BB

Guyz Y u on next mobs no BB

A tank holding aggro under BB gets **** for heals even at high refine's its useful for split aggro, damage reduction, or panic button. It is not the classes only heal or even their main heal/self damage reduction. Many if not all clerics these days just know how to BB and they're not even half competent at that. They even refuse to leave BB in a situation where NOT moving will cause squad wipe. Oh and they cant debuff/purify in BB either.

Yes I will get irate at somone for barely knowing how to use 1 button at level 100.

I'll agree with you that BB is given too much screen time in endgame instances, but what the hell, it works. You can't assume the worst from an endgame cleric just because their job is easy. I'd never diss the classic IH-tank and DD damage moderation scenario, but why insist on that when BB works just as well?

I've seen BMs and Seekers tank BHs under BB, and of course I have no trouble with it on my barb. What makes you so different?

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'll agree with you that BB is given too much screen time in endgame instances, but what the hell, it works. You can't assume the worst from an endgame cleric just because their job is easy. I'd never diss the classic IH-tank and DD damage moderation scenario, but why insist on that when BB works just as well?

I've seen BMs and Seekers tank BHs under BB, and of course I have no trouble with it on my barb. What makes you so different?

Wow you are rather dull.

My issue is when clerics ONLY BB and are litteraly incapable of adapting when anything changes. Because I didnt make that obvious enough somehow.

I can draw you a diagram in crayon if you like.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Wow you are rather dull.

My issue is when clerics ONLY BB and are litteraly incapable of adapting when anything changes. Because I didnt make that obvious enough somehow.

I can draw you a diagram in crayon if you like.

I know what you meant, but then why the whining about how terrible BB heals are?

And for that matter, MSpaint or gtfo.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I know what you meant, but then why the whining about how terrible BB heals are?

And for that matter, MSpaint or gtfo.

Because it is terrible in a lot of situations, duh?

I dont force my desire to optimize runs on others, but the 3460275023th time one see's a wipe cause OMG BB so pro I r gud @ game no tell hao 2 ply.

I just start kicking the idiots.

Nenor - Dreamweaver

I BB at leaf on my cleric. Even after all this time, i manage to get in squads where people herp derp the boss when it has self buffs causing it to get the increased attacks. Seriously, hasn't this boss been in game long enough for people that are 102+ to know NOT to do that?

I BB on capti boss simply for the aoes. It reduces the damage, making it easier for the squishys in the squad to survive. Some day i hope all AA classes learn that his aoe is physical and start wearing the appropriate ornaments.

Jadsia - Lost City

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Full WS is a fairly serious instance so not arguing with you there, but the others can be done by damn near any gear set as long as you know what you're doing.

A full warsong can be done successfully with gear as low as g13. I've seen it. Knowing what to do is important in any instance.

But y'know, I'm not gonna draw this one out into a wall-o-text. I'll put the ball in your court instead. Tell me exactly how, in your words, a tt99 player is a "moocher" in any given BH squad... wait for it... without using any variation on the word "efficiency." :P

Go on, give me a reason that doesn't amount to "I want a 2min BH QQQQQQ." Make me believe it. :P

You failed to mention that in your previous post you challenged me to run the new SoT and/or Aba instance wearing TT 90 to TT99 gears with +2 refines. I said that I do not have to because I worked hard to get all my skills and make gear sufficient enough to complete the instance. Anyone who cannot carry their own weight in supporting a squad in any instance because of their lack of skills and decent gear is a moocher. If someone wearing TT99 gear in the new SoT and Aba instance cannot carry their own weight in supporting the squad that person is a moocher. In their mind if we tolerate have to constantly working harder to progress through the instance and dealing with lost time because of the constant rezzing and rebuffing why should they have to work hard to get better skills and gear? In my squads if someone keeps dying at bosses due to sub par gear or lack of skills I refuse to allow the tank to keep tanking the boss while everyone stands around waiting for an EP to rez or for them to run back to our point int he instance. I tell the squad to leave them dead and rez after the boss or whatever is dead. Let them QQ about not getting credit for the kill. They didn't earn it. They are a burden to the party for the party is working harder because one is underperforming. Why is that such a difficult concept to comprehend? And it's not just sub par gear at issue, it's the lack of attained and leveled skills too. Would you want a level 100 barb that has half of their skills learned and of those some of them not even leveled past what can be got at 8x?.




That's some pro strawmanning right there. Seriously, grats. 10/10.

Now tell me where I ever said that proper = fail.

It's a matter of perception, isn't it? Like a lot of things in the game. What really matters whether one's perception of stats and gear being 'proper' allows them to succeed or fail. Lets just say that level 100+ EPs with barely 7.2K HP fully buffed think they are properly statted yet QQ because they get one shot while in BB in the new SoT and Aba. Gee. I wonder why they die like that.

Is it not logical to think that those who fail in the new SoT and Aba are not properly geared or statted to survive the instance. I mean, a lot of us do succeed in there. We're nothing special. We just make proper choices regarding how we equip and stat our chars.

Besides, it's stupid easy to level from 99 to 100 and with NW or the hundreds of people peddling raps and cannies after NW it's ridiculously easy to upgrade TT99 to a g14 and g15 NV gear so there's very little excuse to be running SoT or Aba in TT99 gear anyway.

This is not rocket science. It's common sense.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

idk Migure; maybe the rest of us just have loads of fun trying to figure out better ways to do things and then spreading that knowledge around.

Colum - Raging Tide

Felt like bringing up my opinion into two things

Nenor - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Pure mag verses mag/vit cleric brings back a discussion I had with someone on my server a couple yrs ago. I was pretty gung-ho that a cleric should be magic build.. then they said one thing that made me stop, pause and rethink.

A dead cleric can't heal anyone.

Granted, you maybe don't want a cleric with 250 magic and the rest vit at 100 +.. but a small bit of those magic points stated over into vit isn't going to make a difference except in that clerics own personal survival.

My cleric is pure magic demon and I hardly ever find him dead. What is this? Oh, right, my cleric uses PHYSICAL ornaments when needed and has higher HP than most clerics, vit or not, at his level. Also timing plume shell is useful.

Besides I'm tired of using pots in Warsong just because vit cleric's BB doesn't heal enough. b:bye

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

lmao, what sort of elitist bull**** is this? You're acting like someone isn't allowed to be unsure of where to go gear-wise at 100. Newsflash, not everyone is a ******n forum savant and sometimes you do need to guide people. I can understand how people can get confused about what to do gear-wise. ****, I still get confused as to what I should do next gear-wise sometimes and I'm full r9rr +10.

Now, once they get their g16 Nirv or whatever and have been told the correct sharding for their class and how to cheaply refine to +5 or so, then yeah, I don't think there's much excuse for them beyond being out of event gold or waiting to get some more money (for the mirages/cheapo shards like flawless or even exclusives). Then after that, they can decide what they want to do from there and get further help if they need.

To be honest I agree with her point, though she could have said it differently. It is NOT our responibility to go and gear the hypernoobs. All of my lvl 100 friends whom I leveled with knew what they want. They knew the gear, their cultivation, the plan to obtain it. If you don't take time for that, you shoulnd't except any symphaty from others.

ovenusarmanio

You don't shoot out of the womb with full knowledge of how MMOs work, and what gear goes best with what. Or know to check forums to find that information out. I certainly didn't when I made my first toon, as this was my first MMO. I think stereotyping people because you see them in TT99 gear is rather silly. You have no way of knowing whether they are new 100/returning player intending to improve their gear with one of the best coin makers in their gear range, which is BH100. Or if they are someone who has had the same gear for years and years. Or if they have coin and are just researching what gear is best for them before making purchasing decisions until you've run with them more than once. BH should be a unifying daily event that lets players of all types interact with each other and run instances. It's what BH100 was designed to be at first, I think. Considering it sends you to instances that used to be completed with things like 80 gold...and when TT was revamped they also removed the BH. For farming instances like full warsong it's different. But most people do gear up before doing warsong by doing BH. At least from what I've seen.Most do make small improvements with their gear little by little. Some people only really have time for BH, and can't merchant, meaning they are going to gear up a lot slower than someone who has time to farm. It doesn't make them bad people or mooches. Just more casual. BH is a daily event so OFC it's going to attract more people than farming instances. That's a good thing. It gets people interacting, helps them find better factions that will help them gear up as opposed to most of the lowbie factions that are not able to do so. And those kinds of things. Its good to have an event that requires cooperation from a broad spectrum of players.

And yeah there are some people who have been here 3+ gear still wearing junk gear like tt90 +2 at level 100 but that's surely the minority. :P

And why shouldn't newbies FC at this point? The older playerbase as a whole refuses to play with them with toons of their level, and the only way they can actually play an MMO with other people is to hyper. A situation older players created by refusing to level up alts the old way, and refusing to use at level alts to help people if they have them preferring to breeze through the stuff they need with a level 100+ toon and then dumping them back on the map starved of any other interaction with other players. Who would want to deal with that for months on end? Unless you take some kind of pride in having done all the quests, you won't want that. The playerbase as a whole has made it so that new players feel pressured to power level, and then condemn them for doing it because they don't know what to do at level 100. When they never had any other interaction with people to learn. And a lot of us didn't learn by reading the forums, but by interacting with others. But they think lowbies should learn by themselves, a standard many of them didn't ever achieve as they learned from other more experienced players. Things they learned from someone else who they met while doing at level things. Not some 100+ that breezed through the instance in 5 minutes with saying a word to them. Why impose a standard on others, you yourself never had to deal with? IDK, it just really annoys me how new player unfriendly both the community and developers have become.

tweakz

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Then you have sins with high refined weapons and low refines on everything else, insisting on BB on non-AOE bosses because they'll die without it if they get aggro, and insisting on tanking.

Those sins might dd better with a bow (BH SoT for example).

oVenusArmanio wrote:

And yeah there are some people who have been here 3+ gear still wearing junk gear like tt90 +2 at level 100 but that's surely the minority. :P

Not on HT.

The older playerbase as a whole refuses to play with them with toons of their level, and the only way they can actually play an MMO with other people is to hyper.

Blame the game; not the players. We used to have more incentive. Now it's easier to buy rank; before people got it by helping on Call to Duties, or BH 59.

I often make Full Eden, and Brimstone runs for Divine Quest and for those; level isn't a factor since a single 100+ dd can take out the mobs and bosses in little time. Those of us leveling alts are still around to help others on the hard culti bosses.

There's many ways they could improve the incentive in this game.

Some of these people are con artists too. They put out a world chat like "LF HELP MY FB59", but we get to the boss and find they have no Call to Duty so it costs us a tele to get there, and the time we could have made 100k exp/drops.

As far as learning the game: I believe it's their responsibility to look things up. I might point one in the direction of the database or ecatomb, but I'm not going to waste my time on them if they don't act responsible and take the time.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

A full warsong can be done successfully with gear as low as g13. I've seen it. Knowing what to do is important in any instance.

Kinda proves my point more than yours then, doesn't it? I've done a few full WS runs and am comfortable doing it on either of my mains, but I wouldn't say I have a complete grasp on the gear level necessary. I was erring on the conservative side of what can be done, there. Then again, if I can tank it on my TT99 barb then that's about as much proof as I need.

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

You failed to mention that in your previous post you challenged me to run the new SoT and/or Aba instance wearing TT 90 to TT99 gears with +2 refines.

Not sure who mentioned +2 refines, but it wasn't me. May want to make sure you're replying to the right person here.

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

I said that I do not have to because I worked hard to get all my skills and make gear sufficient enough to complete the instance. Anyone who cannot carry their own weight in supporting a squad in any instance because of their lack of skills and decent gear is a moocher. If someone wearing TT99 gear in the new SoT and Aba instance cannot carry their own weight in supporting the squad that person is a moocher.

So in this part you've equated "moocher" with one who fails to "carry their weight," which is an equally loaded term. Moving on...

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

In their mind if we tolerate have to constantly working harder to progress through the instance and dealing with lost time because of the constant rezzing and rebuffing why should they have to work hard to get better skills and gear? In my squads if someone keeps dying at bosses due to sub par gear or lack of skills I refuse to allow the tank to keep tanking the boss while everyone stands around waiting for an EP to rez or for them to run back to our point int he instance. I tell the squad to leave them dead and rez after the boss or whatever is dead. Let them QQ about not getting credit for the kill. They didn't earn it. They are a burden to the party for the party is working harder because one is underperforming. Why is that such a difficult concept to comprehend? And it's not just sub par gear at issue, it's the lack of attained and leveled skills too. Would you want a level 100 barb that has half of their skills learned and of those some of them not even leveled past what can be got at 8x?.

So here we are, then. The real reason comes out. Seems to me like you wouldn't mind a TT99 character, if they know how to play their class and use their skills correctly. Which is great, and all... that's kinda where we need to be... but it's not where you were three pages ago:

It's the player's own obligation to make sure their toon is leveled, geared, and statted properly

Level, gear, and stats. That's what I'm taking issue with you criticizing. I didn't say jack about skills. Those can be reviewed on an individual basis, and that'd be a completely different discussion anyway. What I asked was for you to tell me how using TT99 gear makes someone a moocher, and all I'm hearing is issues with the player's level of skill. Care to try again?

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

Besides, it's stupid easy to level from 99 to 100 and with NW or the hundreds of people peddling raps and cannies after NW it's ridiculously easy to upgrade TT99 to a g14 and g15 NV gear so there's very little excuse to be running SoT or Aba in TT99 gear anyway.

This is not rocket science. It's common sense.

Ahh, "common sense," my favorite term. The one everyone and their grandmother seems to love to take license with until "common" is equivalent to "my." :P

Point is, as you've failed to disprove so far... you don't need an "excuse" to run in TT99 gear to begin with. What business is it of yours when, if, or why I choose to upgrade my barb's gear? I am considering an upgrade plan for him, not that it's any business of yours, but I'm focusing on other characters first. In the meantime, I tank my BHs competently and I know how to play my class. If you were to demand anything more of me, you'd be making friends with my kick button.

Walpurga wrote:

idk Migure; maybe the rest of us just have loads of fun trying to figure out better ways to do things and then spreading that knowledge around.

But that's the beauty of it. There's never one definition of "better." You can pick your poison from any number of methods.

There's the speed-running method where you try for the best completion time possible; that seems to be the method of most. There's the military-precision method where you invent the closest-possible-to-flawless method of doing the run (which seems to be tweakz's method). My method? I guess you could call it the "less-is-more" method. I have the most fun in BH where the squad is average-to-lesser-geared, and therefore the squad's gear won't be a workable substitute for skill.

But the caveat to these, and any methods, is that when you run with randoms, you can't expect them to fall in line. I do very few BHs where I have my ideal squad, although I have my methods of increasing the odds of such. But if you're going to add randoms (or worse, join a squad as a random) you have to accept that the squad's going to be a mixed bag of gear, skill, and yes, even intelligence levels... and trying to make them all line up and play the way you want is just elitism, plain and simple.

For me, BH is about the occasional run that I manage to do the way I like, and the rest is just finding the hilarious absurdity in it. Last night I joined an Aba run on my archer. They'd already almost reached Puppeteer by the time I joined, so I had to join in mid-fight and didn't have much time to analyze the squad I'd joined. There were three archers (counting me), two BMs, and a few various others. Once we got to Leaf Rain, we quickly noticed that it kept regaining all it's HP and we couldn't kill it. The BM leader was pissed off and kept demanding to know who was apsing (even though she was apsing a bit herself). At one point she even kicked the other BM who had been using axes for 90% of the fight because she blamed him. Eventually I adjusted my camera to find out that one of the archers was using Deicides on the boss, not listening to squad chat at all. So of course once this is found out, half the squad keeps begging the leader to kick this guy. She remains adamant that it's not him, because, and I quote, "he's not sparking." I hate aps with a passion and even I know that archers can pull it off without sparking due to the rank top. So I try to explain that to her, but suddenly the clawcher switches to his bow and just stands there, two inches from the boss, doing nothing. The rest of the squad seizes on this opportunity to take the boss down before he decides to resume his idiocy.

This whole process took about 4-5 minutes, during which Leaf fully healed itself probably fifteen or twenty times. But y'know, I couldn't stop laughing. It was hilarious. I'd never seen Leaf last that long before, much less against a squad of ten people. Now I bet a few of us in this thread (certainly tweakz) would have ragequit without a second thought on seeing this. But I didn't care. It made the run interesting, in its own demented way. What did I care if I didn't turn in my BH for another few minutes? In all honesty, it's this insistence on hurried runs that eludes my understanding the most.

Functionally of course, the fault in that run lay in two places: the BM leader for lacking some knowledge on how archers can acheive 5aps without spark, and of course the clawcher himself. But here's the key - the problem wasn't so much that he was apsing, but he wouldn't listen to or communicate with anyone in the squad. To me, that's a bigger crime than any lack of gear or even skill. If you're willing to communicate with your squad, you can mitigate just about any other issue that comes up. If you aren't, then that implies a lack of intelligence far beyond anything that your gear would communicate.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote:

Because it is terrible in a lot of situations, duh?

Well I dunno man, I think I'm gonna need you to draw up that chart of all the situations in which BB is unworkable in BH100. Because there are clearly so many, and all.

Kidding aside... a cleric who can't adapt is one thing, but don't whine about how BB itself sucks unless you're ready to back that up. After tanking hundreds of BH100s under nothing but BB (from all kinds of clerics, competent and incompetent, high and low-geared) with my oh-so-heretical TT99 gear, I'd say the burden of proof is on you, buddy. :P

And be sure to do it in MSpaint.

MetzliDemon - Harshlands

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

And yeah there are some people who have been here 3+ gear still wearing junk gear like tt90 +2 at level 100 but that's surely the minority. :P

For some time I had my tt80 dagger while I was lvl 100 and was a little bit difficult to me to be accepted in BH squads (specially when they asked to link weapon, I knew I had no opportunity when they saw my weapon...), but that of having tt80 daggers at lvl 100 is because I didn't have the money to get r8 or nirvana at that moment... I was trying my best to buy reputation and farming to get money but for me good gears don't appear suddenly on my hand for one second to another. Things take their time for me... And I'm very glad in Harshlands some people invited my for BH's, saw my weapon inside cave and didn't thought I was lower than the others just because of my weapon f:cute

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well I dunno man, I think I'm gonna need you to draw up that chart of all the situations in which BB is unworkable in BH100. Because there are clearly so many, and all.

Kidding aside... a cleric who can't adapt is one thing, but don't whine about how BB itself sucks unless you're ready to back that up. After tanking hundreds of BH100s under nothing but BB (from all kinds of clerics, competent and incompetent, high and low-geared) with my oh-so-heretical TT99 gear, I'd say the burden of proof is on you, buddy. :P

And be sure to do it in MSpaint.

Nah, your mabey work a crayon drawing but not MS paint. Pretty sure that even the magic of crayola cant cure your case of "the stupid" so debating if its worth it.

tweakz

Background: I play 8 Lvl 101+ toons a day primarily doing BH100s, before that I had been doing Caster runs as well.

-That puts me in a position to notice the lack of progress in equips of some players, where the casual player would not notice.

I don't think that we're all in disagreement about how people should equip responsibly: I think our perceptions of those people are where we disagree. Some perceive them as new, where others like Jadsia and I perceive most of them as moochers. I don't think we're above helping lesser geared players: we're above helping bare minimalists. -That carries on into skills as well (equips are just more obvious).

I suggested a long time ago that a veno could get into a Nirvana squad by saying they have sage amp when they only had lvl 10. -There's no way to tell if they do or not. b:chuckle Equips are often a good give away. Some people will have 3 gear slots empty because they're too lazy to stash or trade equips over.

Some of us see it, some of us always think the best of others.

I wonder, is there any way to show the stats of actual new players to each server? It would help if they had unique static IPs to show newness as well. I think people would be surprised to see how few actual new comers there are.

I'd never seen Leaf last that long before, much less against a squad of ten people. Now I bet a few of us in this thread (certainly tweakz) would have ragequit without a second thought on seeing this. But I didn't care.

-Imagine enduring that 8x a day, or losing a possible excitement card because you couldn't squeeze in your last BH of the day. Also; what if you have limited time?

Likewise I blame the same 2 characters (most), and don't feel bad about leaving such a situation. The whole squad should have let the archer get aggro and die or solo, then left him there dead or soloing. I've let derpa sins steal aggro as barb. I'd even make it obvious by moving away from the boss and doing nothing. I've also come out of Regeneration Aura as a cleric to kill the boss rather than res the dead sin that apsed.

Harsh? -Maybe but no one else is teaching them, and they aren't learning. I stopped even trying to tell them because all they do is argue and insult.

Eoria - Harshlands

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

You don't shoot out of the womb with full knowledge of how MMOs work, and what gear goes best with what. Or know to check forums to find that information out. I certainly didn't when I made my first toon, as this was my first MMO. I think stereotyping people because you see them in TT99 gear is rather silly. You have no way of knowing whether they are new 100/returning player intending to improve their gear with one of the best coin makers in their gear range, which is BH100. Or if they are someone who has had the same gear for years and years. Or if they have coin and are just researching what gear is best for them before making purchasing decisions until you've run with them more than once. BH should be a unifying daily event that lets players of all types interact with each other and run instances. It's what BH100 was designed to be at first, I think. Considering it sends you to instances that used to be completed with things like 80 gold...and when TT was revamped they also removed the BH. For farming instances like full warsong it's different. But most people do gear up before doing warsong by doing BH. At least from what I've seen.Most do make small improvements with their gear little by little. Some people only really have time for BH, and can't merchant, meaning they are going to gear up a lot slower than someone who has time to farm. It doesn't make them bad people or mooches. Just more casual. BH is a daily event so OFC it's going to attract more people than farming instances. That's a good thing. It gets people interacting, helps them find better factions that will help them gear up as opposed to most of the lowbie factions that are not able to do so. And those kinds of things. Its good to have an event that requires cooperation from a broad spectrum of players.

And yeah there are some people who have been here 3+ gear still wearing junk gear like tt90 +2 at level 100 but that's surely the minority. :P

And why shouldn't newbies FC at this point? The older playerbase as a whole refuses to play with them with toons of their level, and the only way they can actually play an MMO with other people is to hyper. A situation older players created by refusing to level up alts the old way, and refusing to use at level alts to help people if they have them preferring to breeze through the stuff they need with a level 100+ toon and then dumping them back on the map starved of any other interaction with other players. Who would want to deal with that for months on end? Unless you take some kind of pride in having done all the quests, you won't want that. The playerbase as a whole has made it so that new players feel pressured to power level, and then condemn them for doing it because they don't know what to do at level 100. When they never had any other interaction with people to learn. And a lot of us didn't learn by reading the forums, but by interacting with others. But they think lowbies should learn by themselves, a standard many of them didn't ever achieve as they learned from other more experienced players. Things they learned from someone else who they met while doing at level things. Not some 100+ that breezed through the instance in 5 minutes with saying a word to them. Why impose a standard on others, you yourself never had to deal with? IDK, it just really annoys me how new player unfriendly both the community and developers have become.

I pretty much generally agree with this. wtf is up with some of you people. I mean, I'll admit that I am that person that just FCs their alts up to 100 for the most part because lazy, but damn. If someone comes to me asking for advice or asks on WC for advice, I'll answer them and talk with them and point them in the direction of where they should be going/what they should be looking up. Legit, it's not hard. idk why some of you feel the need to belittle and berate them. Most of these people haven't been sitting in tt99+3 for three years like Miugre. They just need some direction.

idk. Some of these posts I could just replace "hyper babies" with "poor people" and switch a couple more words around and...actually, no. I'm pretty sure that line of conversation isn't allowed on the forums.

Also, Venus, this is something I've been wondering for awhile, but do you think it'd be worthwhile to make an updated beginner's guide? Something detailing leveling info up to 100 while taking into account the new dailies like Season quest and Jolly Jones orders + detailing general gear progression + having useful links like to stuff like where to get Dreamchaser packs and pwdatabase/pwcalc. I think I'd be willing to undertake it.

Jadsia - Lost City

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

lmao, what sort of elitist bull**** is this? You're acting like someone isn't allowed to be unsure of where to go gear-wise at 100. Newsflash, not everyone is a ******n forum savant and sometimes you do need to guide people. I can understand how people can get confused about what to do gear-wise. ****, I still get confused as to what I should do next gear-wise sometimes and I'm full r9rr +10.

Now, once they get their g16 Nirv or whatever and have been told the correct sharding for their class and how to cheaply refine to +5 or so, then yeah, I don't think there's much excuse for them beyond being out of event gold or waiting to get some more money (for the mirages/cheapo shards like flawless or even exclusives). Then after that, they can decide what they want to do from there and get further help if they need.

3 times I quit the game for more than 8 months and every time I came back things were drastically different. This last time I came back was in March of this year and I was horribly undergeared and had no idea what NW was etc. It was my responsibility to relearn my char, figure out what gears I needed how to level up and get my missing Morai skills. Not only that I needed to learn how to make a lot of coin at the same time.

I would be the very person I'm complaining about had I not gone into overdrive to figure all that out and update my char. I know what I'm talking about here because I've dealt with it. Sure it's hard to sift through all the confusion and figure this **** out but that's why we find nice people in-game to help us understand what to do.

It's our responsibility to figure it all out to keep up with the mainstream so we can function in mainstream events - dailies, weeklies, etc. otherwise we get left behind in the dust. I've done this in the past 4 months. There's no excuse not to do it if you expect to be included in mainstream events.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Kinda proves my point more than yours then, doesn't it? I've done a few full WS runs and am comfortable doing it on either of my mains, but I wouldn't say I have a complete grasp on the gear level necessary. I was erring on the conservative side of what can be done, there. Then again, if I can tank it on my TT99 barb then that's about as much proof as I need.

LOL! No it doesn't. The QQ is not about being able to complete WS with g12 to g13 gears. The QQ is that people are getting slaughtered in the new SoT and Aba wearing crappy g12 and g13 gears. It's so easy to make g15 and g16 gears from g12 and g13 gears it's stupid not to. That's one reason to insta-kick anyone in a SoT and Aba run using g12 and g13 gears. If they don't care enough to invest in upgrading their gears they most likely neglected skills too.
Not sure who mentioned +2 refines, but it wasn't me. May want to make sure you're replying to the right person here.


So in this part you've equated "moocher" with one who fails to "carry their weight," which is an equally loaded term. Moving on...

LOL! Did I hit a nerve? Yeah, people who don't contribute to the party are moochers...yes. What's so loaded about that?

So here we are, then. The real reason comes out. Seems to me like you wouldn't mind a TT99 character, if they know how to play their class and use their skills correctly. Which is great, and all... that's kinda where we need to be... but it's not where you were three pages ago:

As I said several times already, it's stupid easy to level from 99 to 100 and even easier to upgrade TT99 gears to NV gears. There's no excuse to not do this. Duh.

Level, gear, and stats. That's what I'm taking issue with you criticizing. I didn't say jack about skills. Those can be reviewed on an individual basis, and that'd be a completely different discussion anyway. What I asked was for you to tell me how using TT99 gear makes someone a moocher, and all I'm hearing is issues with the player's level of skill. Care to try again?

Leveled skills are just as important as updated gears. If you and people like you cannot comprehend that concept then it's no wonder the likes of you fail miserably in the new SoT and Aba or complain about getting 1 shot all the time in NW. I mean, skills are a fundamental requirement to function, are they not? Why the hell would you or anyone think that level 7 or level 8 skills are adequate for level 99+ gameplay?

Ahh, "common sense," my favorite term. The one everyone and their grandmother seems to love to take license with until "common" is equivalent to "my." :P

Common sense is derived from what the vast majority knows and does. And on my server the vast majority 99+ have updated gears and skills or are working on them instead of QQing or making excuses for not doing so.

Point is, as you've failed to disprove so far... you don't need an "excuse" to run in TT99 gear to begin with. What business is it of yours when, if, or why I choose to upgrade my barb's gear? I am considering an upgrade plan for him, not that it's any business of yours, but I'm focusing on other characters first. In the meantime, I tank my BHs competently and I know how to play my class. If you were to demand anything more of me, you'd be making friends with my kick button.

It becomes my business when someone with the likes of you and your attitude joins my squad. That's when.

But that's the beauty of it. There's never one definition of "better." You can pick your poison from any number of methods.

It depends on one's style of gameplay. Some PvE only. Some PvP only. Others both. But if one desires to run with mainstream in instances where teamwork is required to succeed your definition of 'better' must be aligned with everyone else there. If not it won't take long for them to figure it out and replace you.

There's the speed-running method where you try for the best completion time possible; that seems to be the method of most. There's the military-precision method where you invent the closest-possible-to-flawless method of doing the run (which seems to be tweakz's method). My method? I guess you could call it the "less-is-more" method. I have the most fun in BH where the squad is average-to-lesser-geared, and therefore the squad's gear won't be a workable substitute for skill.

But the caveat to these, and any methods, is that when you run with randoms, you can't expect them to fall in line. I do very few BHs where I have my ideal squad, although I have my methods of increasing the odds of such. But if you're going to add randoms (or worse, join a squad as a random) you have to accept that the squad's going to be a mixed bag of gear, skill, and yes, even intelligence levels... and trying to make them all line up and play the way you want is just elitism, plain and simple.

Guess what? Every squad I join or make include randoms and we do just fine most of the time. Why? Because we adhere to that old 'common knowledge' **** previously mentioned. The number one cause of problems in my random squads is miscommunication.

You're making my points clearer with every post.

ovenusarmanio

tweakz wrote: »

Blame the game; not the players. We used to have more incentive. Now it's easier to buy rank; before people got it by helping on Call to Duties, or BH 59.

I often make Full Eden, and Brimstone runs for Divine Quest and for those; level isn't a factor since a single 100+ dd can take out the mobs and bosses in little time. Those of us leveling alts are still around to help others on the hard culti bosses.

There's many ways they could improve the incentive in this game.

Some of these people are con artists too. They put out a world chat like "LF HELP MY FB59", but we get to the boss and find they have no Call to Duty so it costs us a tele to get there, and the time we could have made 100k exp/drops.

As far as learning the game: I believe it's their responsibility to look things up. I might point one in the direction of the database or ecatomb, but I'm not going to waste my time on them if they don't act responsible and take the time.

It is their responsibility to look things up. Some people look things up and learn things by asking other people. And learning from others. But you can't do that if you don't have anyone to talk to. Because pretty much nobody plays the lowbie content, they learn from others at 100. After they hypered, many as they were told to do. The game has made it so people have little incentive or reason to do those low levels. So new players either have to be alone and bored for months on end, and then hyper. The older players contribute to this by selling FC, and pressuring people to FC. Both by not playing them with (so they do it to conform and join peer groups) or actually telling them to FC. They then get angry, annoyed, condescending to the people who did hyper for bending to the social pressure they have created.

And yes, it's not your fault that there is little reason to be low level. But The same is true for new players. Its unreasonable to hostile to them for doing what all the game development pressure and social pressure in-game tells them to do. They are doing what everything is tell them to do, and then getting told off for doing it. Because back when you first started, the same situation wasn't true. And you leveled up a different way and knew what you were doing by 100. That's nice for you. But you didn't have to do it all alone. So why should they?

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

I pretty much generally agree with this. wtf is up with some of you people. I mean, I'll admit that I am that person that just FCs their alts up to 100 for the most part because lazy, but damn. If someone comes to me asking for advice or asks on WC for advice, I'll answer them and talk with them and point them in the direction of where they should be going/what they should be looking up. Legit, it's not hard. idk why some of you feel the need to belittle and berate them. Most of these people haven't been sitting in tt99+3 for three years like Miugre. They just need some direction.

idk. Some of these posts I could just replace "hyper babies" with "poor people" and switch a couple more words around and...actually, no. I'm pretty sure that line of conversation isn't allowed on the forums.

Also, Venus, this is something I've been wondering for awhile, but do you think it'd be worthwhile to make an updated beginner's guide? Something detailing leveling info up to 100 while taking into account the new dailies like Season quest and Jolly Jones orders + detailing general gear progression + having useful links like to stuff like where to get Dreamchaser packs and pwdatabase/pwcalc. I think I'd be willing to undertake it.

Not only do I think it's a good idea, I think it's long overdue.

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

I've done this in the past 4 months. There's no excuse not to do it if you expect to be included in mainstream events.

I hope in that 4 month period you did not join a BH squad. Otherwise you're being completely unreasonable to expect everyone else to be at the same point as you are. There is always going to be someone new to the class or new to the game that just got to 100 and haven't had a chance yet to upgrade their gear. You cannot tell their intentions or how much progress they've made just by glancing at their gear. This game has placed an enormous amount of social and game design pressure to hurry up to level 100, and then when people do hurry up to (and thus are unlikely to be able to afford g15 gear right away) they are ridiculed, belittled, and automatically kicked from squad. And most of the time it isn't causing wipe after wipe after wipe. When I was doing BH100, I almost exclusively ran it with randoms. And the people who actually slowed squads down to a crawl or a halt were rare. Most people might have died like once, maybe twice. But it wasn't often that anyone died at all. Most of the time, their "sin" was adding a couple more minutes to the run. That's about it. Having rerolled servers, and getting a taste of the newbie medicine (although I'm significantly better off because I know what i'm doing) I can see why it happens now. And I'm a bit more forgiving of hyper nubs than I was in the past. As long as they are willing to listen, and don't cause wipes, I'm more resolved to be more patient with them than I have in the past.