Is this considered a scam?

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Comments

  • krisnda
    krisnda Forum cat Posts: 4,655 Community Moderator
    edited October 2012
    So if I decide to buy tokens at a low price of 1k coins, but they selling for 10k, im wrong? If I put in my title buying 1k and in my shop buying at 1k, im wrong?

    No your not wrong.
  • VenusArmani - Dreamweaver
    VenusArmani - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,009 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    ....

    If you put the title as 1k, it's a'okay. Because you're telling people you are buying it for 1k.


    THIS ISN'T ABOUT THE PRICING.

    Esto no es una cuestion de precios.

    これは, 価格の問題ではありません.

    Esta nao e uma questao de preco.

    Detta ar inte en prisfraga.


    >> C'mon people do I need to spell this out in smoke signs. Do you need a different language from google translate not listed here? This isn't a pricing issue. The shop title makes it a scam not the price.
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  • Mr_Swiss - Heavens Tear
    Mr_Swiss - Heavens Tear Posts: 879 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Krisnda wrote: »
    No your not wrong.

    Thats the same thing they doing. Buying cannies for a low price, and also stating that they buying for that low price. The title is not false, neither is inside the shop. So it's clearly not a scam and doesn't need to be reported.
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  • augustfinknottle
    augustfinknottle Posts: 276 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Just because they state the 'correct price' doesn't make it any less of a scam. They are using the environment of peoples expectations to trick people into losing cash if they're not careful. That bs should be banned.

    So, if the catshop was, say, in 4th map of chrono world, or in a remote spot of Avalanche Canyon it wouldn't be a scam? Yeah, that's a great point. Except that the one place one goes to when they want to buy raps/cannies is where people with raps/cannies are.

    Using people's expectations if they're not careful might not be the most honest-to-god way, but that's not something you can prove. You simply can't prove intentions, so you must keep the rules down to earth and around objective stuff, or else there would be bias when applying those rules. Someone would have to draw an artificial line to determine what's fair and what's not fair, and we all know (or should know) what effect that kind of measure has on an economy. Freezing prices = terrible idea.

    There would always be a line to be drawn somewhere, so I'd be able to buyl raptures for 1,280,000, but not 1,279,999. Would that be fair? If his price was 1 would he be scamming? Then why paying more is? You see? The whole point is the line you must draw when you're trying to say what was someone's intention. Why would you think someone buying for 1coin is more honest than someone buying for 238coins? Because you are ASSUMING he is, simple as that.

    Rules should not be based on assumptions. That's the most dangerous thing in laws/rules. We already have too much of that **** going on in our countries, God Forbid that kind of **** taking over PWI as well.
  • krisnda
    krisnda Forum cat Posts: 4,655 Community Moderator
    edited October 2012
    Thats the same thing they doing. Buying cannies for a low price, and also stating that they buying for that low price. The title is not false, neither is inside the shop. So it's clearly not a scam and doesn't need to be reported.

    No, and like Venus said, this isn't a pricing issue (well, it sort of is) it's a issue of naming the shop one thing, and selling/buying something different/different price, etc.
  • VenusArmani - Dreamweaver
    VenusArmani - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,009 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    So, if the catshop was, say, in 4th map of chrono world, or in a remote spot of Avalanche Canyon it wouldn't be a scam? Yeah, that's a great point. Except that the one place one goes to when they want to buy raps/cannies is where people with raps/cannies are.

    Using people's expectations if they're not careful might not be the most honest-to-god way, but that's not something you can prove. You simply can't prove intentions, so you must keep the rules down to earth and around objective stuff, or else there would be bias when applying those rules. Someone would have to draw an artificial line to determine what's fair and what's not fair, and we all know (or should know) what effect that kind of measure has on an economy. Freezing prices = terrible idea.

    There would always be a line to be drawn somewhere, so I'd be able to buyl raptures for 1,280,000, but not 1,279,999. Would that be fair? If his price was 1 would he be scamming? Then why paying more is? You see? The whole point is the line you must draw when you're trying to say what was someone's intention. Why would you think someone buying for 1coin is more honest than someone buying for 238coins? Because you are ASSUMING he is, simple as that.

    Rules should not be based on assumptions. That's the most dangerous thing in laws/rules. We already have too much of that **** going on in our countries, God Forbid that kind of **** taking over PWI as well.


    Except you can tell his intentions based off the preponderance of the evidence. Nobody is arguing for a fixed price. They are saying you can't copy everyone's shop title for the purposes of tricking people into thinking that you are something you aren't.


    You can name your shop LMAO and buy scroll of tomes for 1 coin for all I care. Just don't try to deceive people into thinking that they are getting one thing when they are getting another. It could not be more simple.
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  • krisnda
    krisnda Forum cat Posts: 4,655 Community Moderator
    edited October 2012
    Freezing prices = terrible idea.

    There would always be a line to be drawn somewhere, so I'd be able to buyl raptures for 1,280,000, but not 1,279,999. Would that be fair? If his price was 1 would he be scamming? Then why paying more is? .

    If your buying/selling something, it doesn't matter what price you put on the item, make it one billion for all I care, but on that shop it better say that your selling/buying the thing for one billion, and in the shop the price should match up.


    Simply, why not just be legit and put actual prices on the ****, instead of playing mind games with people?
  • SashaGray - Heavens Tear
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,765 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Most people who defend this sort of action say it is allowed since he's technically not lying. It is a ridiculous position since you don't have to be lying to be deceptive.
    EBay has similar issues with sellers such as peopel trying to sell empty XBox 360 boxes for hundreds of dollars. Those scam sellers get banned though.


    Are you being deceptive? if so, you are scamming.
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  • augustfinknottle
    augustfinknottle Posts: 276 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    C'mon people do I need to spell this out in smoke signs. Do you need a different language from google translate not listed here? This isn't a pricing issue. The shop title makes it a scam not the price.

    THE SHOPPING TITLE SAYS BUYING RAPS 1.280. THE EXACT AMOUNT OF COINS HE IS PAYING FOR. THE VERY SAME NUMBER. 1.258 is 1.2K (in MANY, MANY COUNTRIES THE ENGLISH NUMBER 1,280 is written 1.280. I can think of, say almost all the countries in western world).

    So, he didn't EVEN forget the k symbol. What I think of when I see 1.280 is one thousand two-hundred eighty, never one million two hundred eighty thousand. So, yeah.
  • krisnda
    krisnda Forum cat Posts: 4,655 Community Moderator
    edited October 2012
    THE SHOPPING TITLE SAYS BUYING RAPS 1.280. THE EXACT AMOUNT OF COINS HE IS PAYING FOR. THE VERY SAME NUMBER. 1.258 is 1.2K (in MANY, MANY COUNTRIES THE ENGLISH NUMBER 1,280 is written 1.280. I can think of, say almost all the countries in western world).

    So, he didn't EVEN forget the k symbol. What I think of when I see 1.280 is one thousand two-hundred eighty, never one million two hundred eighty thousand. So, yeah.

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  • Decus - Dreamweaver
    Decus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Esto no es una cuestion de precios.


    >> C'mon people do I need to spell this out in smoke signs. Do you need a different language from google translate not listed here? This isn't a pricing issue. The shop title makes it a scam not the price.

    I know this is off-topic, but Google Translate gave you that? >.>
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  • Xainou - Sanctuary
    Xainou - Sanctuary Posts: 5,369 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    i swear some people are just defending their own scam shops...
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  • krisnda
    krisnda Forum cat Posts: 4,655 Community Moderator
    edited October 2012
    i swear some people are just defending their own scam shops...

    b:victory
  • augustfinknottle
    augustfinknottle Posts: 276 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    i swear some people are just defending their own scam shops...

    Maybe. Some of us just think that too much interference on a market can cause the economy to colapse. Others just think that banning people for stuff that's passive to different interpretations is dangerous.

    But by all means, feel free to assume stuff about people. :)
  • Sagek - Sanctuary
    Sagek - Sanctuary Posts: 1,156 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Maybe. Some of us just think that too much interference on a market can cause the economy to colapse. Others just think that banning people for stuff that's passive to different interpretations is dangerous.

    But by all means, feel free to assume stuff about people. :)

    Some people also feel the only way to fix the economy is by removing the people causing the problems, or in the very least limit their ability to manipulate the market.
  • Valirah - Sanctuary
    Valirah - Sanctuary Posts: 522 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    THE SHOPPING TITLE SAYS BUYING RAPS 1.280. THE EXACT AMOUNT OF COINS HE IS PAYING FOR. THE VERY SAME NUMBER. 1.258 is 1.2K (in MANY, MANY COUNTRIES THE ENGLISH NUMBER 1,280 is written 1.280. I can think of, say almost all the countries in western world).

    So, he didn't EVEN forget the k symbol. What I think of when I see 1.280 is one thousand two-hundred eighty, never one million two hundred eighty thousand. So, yeah.


    If what you think when you see 1.280 listed as a price for buying rapture crystals the you are an imbecile.



    No reasonable person would assume that 1.280 in the context of buying rapture crystals in RT would refer to 1280 coins since there is overwhelming convention for that the price to be in Millions.

    No reasonable person would assume that the shop owner was intending to accurately label his shop as buying at 1280 coins, if he was he could have saved a character and omitted the "."

    Since it can reasonably be assumed that the shop owner was not trying to accurately depict his buying price and chose a title that would deliberately mimic that of a common and drastically different pricing convention, he intended to deceive his customers. That is a scam.
  • augustfinknottle
    augustfinknottle Posts: 276 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    If what you think when you see 1.280 listed as a price for buying rapture crystals the you are an imbecile.

    No reasonable person would assume that 1.280 in the context of buying rapture crystals in RT would refer to 1280 coins since there is overwhelming convention for that the price to be in Millions.

    I don't assume anything. I click and check the price. What's imbecile, on the other hand, is to assume too much and sell stuff for 1/1000 their price. Stop assuming. My point was not about people assuming it's wrong, it was about the number being correctly shown by the seller, no tricks at all, perfectly shown algarisms with the "." in the place of the "," as used in most countries of the western world - Germany, Portugal, Spain, France, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Mexico and so on.

    No reasonable person has this need to assume something about everything. Reasonable people double check prices instead.

    Also, please stop trying to use reason if you're not good at it. Stop assuming things if assumption can fail so terribly that you end with a huge loss instead of a gain. The fault is not on the seller, it's on the buyer who assumes too much. There's no "million" there. Why do those "reasonable" people assume there's an occult "million" or a x1000 multiplier there? The standard/average is not always true, reasonable people know that. Jesus, those reasonable people you talk about are not reasonable at all.

    Anyway, reasonable people don't just look at names on catshops, they look at prices too. So we are not talking about reasonable people here, I guess. So you're also wrong when you assume reasonable people would fall for that "scam".

    Ofc I don't deny at all the possibility that that shop might be trying to "scam", but I assure you that if this kind of attitude would be punished, there would be a gray line somewhere where people would start assuming some honest people are trying to scam because of typos, some honest people trying to scam because they were too tired/dumb to double check their prices in catshop, some honest people trying to scam simply because they don't actually know the right price for an item and sets it too low when buying. So much to protect your "reasonable" people who use no reason at all.

    So if I set a shop buying tokens for 10 coins and say "Buy tokens>10" you simply ASSUME I meant 10k? Why wouldn't I say 10k, then? And would I be scamming people too? After all, I'm buying tokens where other people are buying them, and I'm using a price that's much lower than theirs, and I said "10" when others are buying for "10k", so people could ASSUME I meant 10k? Give me a break, please.

    It's not a scam if the buyer needs to assume so much.
  • Valirah - Sanctuary
    Valirah - Sanctuary Posts: 522 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    No reasonable person has this need to assume something about everything. Reasonable people double check prices instead.

    Most people aren't trying to cheat you. Most people title their shops to accurately describe what they are buying/selling. It's not much of an assumption to get what you are expecting when you deal with a catshop, unless of course you happen upon a scamshop.


    Also, please stop trying to use reason if you're not good at it. Stop assuming things if assumption can fail so terribly that you end with a huge loss instead of a gain. The fault is not on the seller, it's on the buyer who assumes too much. There's no "million" there. Why do those "reasonable" people assume there's an occult "million" or a x1000 multiplier there? The standard/average is not always true, reasonable people know that. Jesus, those reasonable people you talk about are not reasonable at all.

    I'm assuming you're an imbecile. Not much of an assumption if you somehow find it unreasonable to assume an "M" in a shop title of "1.2" when dealing with shops buying items worth 1.2 million.
  • augustfinknottle
    augustfinknottle Posts: 276 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I'm assuming you're an imbecile. Not much of an assumption if you somehow find it unreasonable to assume an "M" in a shop title of "1.2" when dealing with shops buying items worth 1.2 million.

    FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME, the shop didn't say 1.2. IT SAID 1.280. A PERFECTLY COMPLETE NUMBER THAT DOES NOT REQUIRE A COMPLEMENT, unlike 1.2, which demands a k or an m to make sense in coins, since you can't have fractions of coins in game. Jesus. It's not that hard. Learn to read before you try thinking and assuming stuff. Gosh.
  • krisnda
    krisnda Forum cat Posts: 4,655 Community Moderator
    edited October 2012
    FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME, the shop didn't say 1.2. IT SAID 1.280. A PERFECTLY COMPLETE NUMBER THAT DOES NOT REQUIRE A COMPLEMENT, unlike 1.2, which demands a k or an m to make sense in coins, since you can't have fractions of coins in game. Jesus. It's not that hard. Learn to read before you try thinking and assuming stuff. Gosh.

    You are one of the people who really doesn't know anything about this game.
  • _Skai_ - Raging Tide
    _Skai_ - Raging Tide Posts: 3,407 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME, the shop didn't say 1.2. IT SAID 1.280. A PERFECTLY COMPLETE NUMBER THAT DOES NOT REQUIRE A COMPLEMENT, unlike 1.2, which demands a k or an m to make sense in coins, since you can't have fractions of coins in game. Jesus. It's not that hard. Learn to read before you try thinking and assuming stuff. Gosh.

    Maybe you should know that a majority of players are in the US, where 1.280 is as much as a decimal value as 1.2.
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  • augustfinknottle
    augustfinknottle Posts: 276 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Krisnda wrote: »
    You are one of the people who really doesn't know anything about this game.

    Sure, whatever you say. That's a completely valid point, btw. And I think you mean that coins can be fractioned in game, then? would you mind teaching me how, please?

    What I really don't get is the whole amount of things that someone need to be doing to be considered a scammer:

    1) He must be selling his stuff where other people are. same catshop 500m away? Not a scam anymore. One thing wrong about this: how far does it have to be to stop being a scam and become just someone buying cheap raptures?

    2) He must also "mimic" other people's price. How close does it have to be to be mimicing? God knows. If regular price is 1.2mil and shop says "Buy raps 1.800", is that mimicing? How many digits does he have to have in common with other catshops? That's the second thing wrong here.

    3) He might say he's buying for 1k, but not for 1.000, because 1.000 implies 1mil necessarily. That obviously means that most catshops in dreamweaver are scamming when they say they're buying tokens for 10.500 when they mean 10.5k, not 10.5 million, how dare they?

    Oh, no, because that's the ASSUMED price of something. Because, ofc, assumption is like a big part of making a deal. I was all about assuming things about my PC when I bought it. Ofc I didn't check anywhere else and I didn't look for any extra fees that might be hidden, because I just assumed this PC was the best.

    4) The person must be acting with the will of being a terrible person and a mean scammer. Mistakes are not scams, by all means. Who decides whether someone's made a mistake or is scamming? VenusArmani, Valirah and you, apparently. It'll be a tough job to check out all the catshops in all servers, you should start ASAP.

    5) When he wants to sell something for 1k, he can write "1000", but not "1.000". That's totally misleading, huge difference, and that person is definitely full of ill intentions and should be perma-banned.

    Yeah, I get it. None of those criteria is passive of any bias, all extremely objective and foolproof. Ready to be applied without a risk of a mistake. someone go get the ban hammer, it's hammertime.
  • augustfinknottle
    augustfinknottle Posts: 276 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Maybe you should know that a majority of players are in the US, where 1.280 is as much as a decimal value as 1.2.

    A majority does not mean all. English is not the only language spoken, and there's no reason to believe all catshops are using the dot to separate decimals. right now I'm looking at a catshop saying "B TOKS 10.500". Scammer?

    That's why I say people should assume less and just check. How hard is it to hover your mouse over an item to check it's price? You'll need to move it there anyway if you wanna sell it.

    And then, after you drag your items there and set the amount, there's the total in the bottom of the shop's screen.

    The main reason I don't think those kinds of people should be punished is there are more ways to protect oneself from being scammed from that catshop than there are of avoiding being banned if you make a mistake once or twice.

    So, that catshop might be a scammer? Yes. Is he probably a scammer? Yes. Can I ever be 100% sure? No. Is there any way to guarantee that, by banning him - which I'm say 90% sure is a scammer -, the rules won't be stretched enough to ban innocent people? No. There's absolutely no way to guarantee that. Because whoever uses those criteria will need a fixed distance to say he's close to others. He'll need a "degree of mimicness" to go with that, and, if someone innocent falls into those to criteria, then yeah, he'll get banned.

    But there's one way to guarantee that you're not fooled into selling stuff for 1/1000 of their price. That is not even a hard way. Just hover your mouse over the item or check the total after selecting the amount you want to sell.

    The game even asks you if you're sure you want to sell it, so you have a THIRD time to think before getting scammed. If someone sells raptures for 1280 coins, he had 3 chances to see what he was doing. so I'm pretty sure he actually wanted to do that or doesn't really care about the price he's selling for.
  • VenusArmani - Dreamweaver
    VenusArmani - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,009 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    A majority does not mean all. English is not the only language spoken, and there's no reason to believe all catshops are using the dot to separate decimals. right now I'm looking at a catshop saying "B TOKS 10.500". Scammer?

    No, because all the catshops around him are using the same advertisements. And yes, that does make a difference. That person is not doing what the XBOX box guys were doing, what the people selling knockoff handbags outside the designer stores were doing, etc. And that is copying someone else's advertisement to make it look like you are getting one thing, when you are really getting another. There is no intent to deceive there. I feel like a broken record at this point. DECEPTION DECEPTION DECEPTION. That's the magic word.

    You go to a Louis Vuitton store, you have a reasonable expectation that all the bags are louis vuitton, including the ones on the sidewalk. You go to ebay and click the XBOX section, you have a reasonable expectation that the sellers are selling XBOXes and XBOX accessories, not just the boxes. You go to raging tides and see 50 catshops with the title 1.280 and it means 1, 280,000 and it has meant that for the past three years, you have a reasonable expectation that is what it means. Nobody should have to assume that everyone is out to get them.
    That's why I say people should assume less and just check. How hard is it to hover your mouse over an item to check it's price? You'll need to move it there anyway if you wanna sell it.

    And then, after you drag your items there and set the amount, there's the total in the bottom of the shop's screen.

    Customers have a reasonable expectation that PWI will punish scammers because it's against the ToS.

    The main reason I don't think those kinds of people should be punished is there are more ways to protect oneself from being scammed from that catshop than there are of avoiding being banned if you make a mistake once or twice.

    This isn't a mistake once or twice. This isn't accidental. That we can say for 100% certainty. Not only has been going on for a month, but that has person has changed their shop title everytime the shop next to them did. It is no mistake.

    So, that catshop might be a scammer? Yes. Is he probably a scammer? Yes.

    And that's really all the GMs should need to know to take action. It's not like anyone ask that they be permanently banned, but that person should be reprimanded and forced to stop trying to rip people off.

    Can I ever be 100% sure? No.

    So what? 100% certainty isn't the standard for something major like murder. Why on Earth should that be the standard for civil things? Minor things like video game rules and whether or not someone should be forced to take a three day vacation or something? Based on the evidence (which btw if he was taken to court, that would be standard. Preponderance of the evidence) it is obvious to any reasonable person (and saying it has to be 100% certain is being unreasonable by legal standards, BTW) that this person is scamming. You even admit that the person is probably scamming. You don't even want to let him escape punishment because of his own actions but because of theoretical mistakes that some random innocent person MIGHT make in the future. So you're happy to let him continue to take money from the vision impaired, the tired, and the hurried. All of whom are more likely to be his victims than others. The vision impaired getting scammed so often in fact was the primary reason they put in the color coding. It helps but if you're half blind and in a hurry it's still very easy for you to make that mistake.

    Is there any way to guarantee that, by banning him - which I'm say 90% sure is a scammer -, the rules won't be stretched enough to ban innocent people? No. There's absolutely no way to guarantee that. Because whoever uses those criteria will need a fixed distance to say he's close to others. He'll need a "degree of mimicness" to go with that, and, if someone innocent falls into those to criteria, then yeah, he'll get banned.

    Yeah, there is a way to guarantee that. For one thing, don't punish people for one night or two nights of bad pricing. Because that could be an honest mistake. You know what can't possibly be a mistake? Doing it for 30 days straight and continuously updating your shop title to make sure it always looks like the other catshops and never strays. No one is saying that someone can't accidentally make an innocent mistake, but this is obviously malicious and deliberate. And it has been going on for a long time. The easy way to do it is to treat scams as scams and evaluate each player on an individual basis. Which btw, is already PWI's policy. They review each and every report of scamming and tend to err on the side of the scammer. Look at the way they handled the goon glitch. Look at the way they handle cat shop scammers in general. Many of them stay up for weeks. Why? Because they don't want to punish people who made an innocent mistake. They've made it overwhelmingly clear they would let people who made hundreds of millions of coins and hundreds of millions of experience points by exploiting glitches go rather than punish one innocent person.


    Given that the evaluate everything on an individual and case by case basis, there is no need to let innocent people get scammed out of their coins. There is no reason to punish innocent players. The ones that are getting scammed are being victimized right now. Worry about the actual ones too, not just some theoretical person.

    But there's one way to guarantee that you're not fooled into selling stuff for 1/1000 of their price. That is not even a hard way. Just hover your mouse over the item or check the total after selecting the amount you want to sell.

    The game even asks you if you're sure you want to sell it, so you have a THIRD time to think before getting scammed. If someone sells raptures for 1280 coins, he had 3 chances to see what he was doing. so I'm pretty sure he actually wanted to do that or doesn't really care about the price he's selling for.


    That's easy to say for you but we all make mistakes. And btw there have been several times where I clicked something, had a bit of lag, and my screen was rushed through a ton of confirmations without me doing anything or seeing anything. I haven't been scammed because i don't even start the dialog option for catshops but those popups are no excuse to blame victims for being scammed. And to let obvious scammers go.
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  • krisnda
    krisnda Forum cat Posts: 4,655 Community Moderator
    edited October 2012
    With those points, I'm ending this thread.
This discussion has been closed.