Is this considered a scam?

XLawBreakerX - Sanctuary

His intention is to scam people and make profits That is a Fact but There is no 100% sure shot way to prove that if he can argue his case too.

But technically This is not bannable, coz if you hear his side of argument in a court he can say that its a free game and its his wish to buy cannies for 500 or watever price.. There is no RULE which says cannies has to be 300k, there is no rule gold has to be 1.5mill, matchless wings 100mill raps 1.3mill, DOD 30mill etc etc.. Theres NO rule for all of these prices they are created by prices.. So, technically he does not deserve a ban..

Its a game and **** happens we have all made many stupid mistakes selling to that catshop is one of these mistakes, just gotta live with it and move on its just a game meant to be fun whats done is done no point stressing about ****..

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

If you guys want to get technical about banning, the fact that your account exists on PWI makes it bannable.

BerserkBeast - Sanctuary

The fact that after 3 weeks his shop its still there proves either that no one cared sending a ticket or GMs doesn't consider it a scam.

Licancura - Archosaur

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

A scam is when someone uses fraud or deception to gain something. A seller cannot know what everyone is thinking and how they understand the world. Just because someone is under the bizzare impression that they every last donation in the world means they will get something for donating, doesn't mean they were scammed out of their money for selling to a donation shop. Neither are personal donations scams, since the person clearly is telling you that what you are giving them is a donation. A donation is a gift. Gifts are clearly things you give people for free. Anyone expecting all donations to give them something in return, don't have a very good grasp of how donations work. That isn't anyone else's fault but their own.

The key thing about scams and frauds is the use of deception. If there is no attempt to deceive someone in order to get their stuff, there is no scam.

You said it was pretty clear, it may be pretty clear to you but not to all. So, knowing that some people are not going to understand the concept, and you can profit on that, it's not a scam?
Ok, fine.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

Let's get technical, a contract of sale requires consensus ad idem as a necessary element to invoke pacta sum servanda. In plain English, both parties must agree on both the object that is being sold and the payment that is given for it. Good faith is a legal assumption in all contracts. People do go to court everyday over the matter of deception in sales, and to my knowledge all legal jurisdictions in the world consider void and null contracts in which one of the parties took advantage of the other's ignorance or inexperience when it is obvious that good faith is lacking. If one of the parties is misinformed because of a deliberate effort by its counterpart you've got mens rea which means criminal prosecution should follow as this is legally fraud.

Now, you may think that freedom of commerce allows you to set whatever price you want for goods and services but this is not so. It was Adam Smith himself who advocated for government regulation and this is what separates Capitalism from Merchantilism. Unfair competition is punishable by law the world over. Let's get it straight, if you pull a scam like this in the real world you will be liable for damages and subject to prosecution, again, in all countries in the world. Yes, plenty of crooks get away with it because of corruption, but it is what it is. All Western legal systems are descended from Roman law and in turn they influenced all other legal systems in the world because of colonialism, this is the reason, not globalization, that the basic principles of law are the same in all countries.

Can you sue this guy? No, leaving aside the legal issues pertaining the exchange of goods and services in MMOs, and PWI being technically the sole owner of any and all in-game "objects", the seventh ammendment to the United States Constitution does have a minimum twenty dollar clause for right of action. Is this in violation of ToS? No, while technically PWI does hold full freedom to broadly interpret clauses, the catshop has remained within the scope of acceptable (not subject to punishment) behaviour. Is this a scam? Yes, absolutely. From a moral standpoint this guy doesn't have a leg to stand on. His behaviour is, at the very least, unethical, and his actions reprehensible.

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver

scam scam scam

so when i go afk and set up shop selling a pickaxe for 200M its a scam because its ot the price? :O

there is a huge difference between the numbers 250000 and 280 or w/e he buys for. thought 3 0s were not that hard to see

orangeladey

Don't really have a solid opinion on whether its a scam or not. It is ceratinly distateful. Hopefully the time he wastes/spends doing that is not as profitable as if he traded honestly, but that isn't something we have the means to check.


Just wanted to throw out the old phrase: "Let the buyer beware."

And mention how impressed, entertained and pleased to see the reasoned rational arguments in this thread !b:thanks

Baby_pho - Heavens Tear

there are always shops like this which make me distrust players. but dam 286k/1.2m for can/rap that's darn low price. :< such a different for ht.

Morigana - Lothranis

I don't see why this would be a scam just double check before you sell.

I saw on my servers some catshop, saying: "Token of best luck 4.5M" and inside there was a Token of luck...

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Licancura - Archosaur wrote: »

You said it was pretty clear, it may be pretty clear to you but not to all. So, knowing that some people are not going to understand the concept, and you can profit on that, it's not a scam?
Ok, fine.

Under that definition, all attempts to sell merchandise or do anything is a scam. And there would be no such thing as legitimate business. I mean, there is always going to be somebody out there that doesn't understand. There is no such thing as fool proof. So you can only hope that the people who come to your shop are reasonable and literate. I mean donation shops flat out say donation, there isn't much else they can do to make it clear that it's a donation. There is such a thing as personal accountability too.

Again, you has to be an attempt at deception or fraud involved for it to be a scam. Those shops are screaming from the hilltops exactly what they are. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either unreasonable or doesn't understand the concept.

BHS_Kamikaze - Sanctuary

I have checked this catshops bag content with the sin's bag peek skills numerous times, and not once have there been more that 2 canny and raps in the bag. People are obviously wary of this scammer.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Saying a shop is technically not a scammer is silly. Would you eat a hamburger patty you are told is technically made out of meat?

If it were actually true you would never have to qualify it like that. Any attempt to deceive makes it a scam. Carefully choosing a price so it resembles another price is meant to deceive.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

BHS_Kamikaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

I have checked this catshops bag content with the sin's bag peek skills numerous times, and not once have there been more that 2 canny and raps in the bag. People are obviously wary of this scammer.

If that person is as paranoid as i am about things, they would be in the bank b:chuckle.

stinks

Its so totally a Scam, he is being deceptive on purpose! If you can get ban for pulling a boss threw a closed door, you can get ban for being a punk and trying to rip ppl off. If I knew who he was in RL i would beat him every day until he decided life was not worth living. ppl like that need to be removed from the planet in a vile way! b:angry

Valirah - Sanctuary

Morigana - Lothranis wrote: »

I don't see why this would be a scam just double check before you sell.

I saw on my servers some catshop, saying: "Token of best luck 4.5M" and inside there was a Token of luck...

The whole point that you needed to double check the price makes it by definition a scam. The scammer sets it up so that the victim is under the impression that he is about to make a fair deal when in reality he is about to make a terribly costly mistake. If it was a legitimate sale, there would be no need to double check anything. The impressions of what the deal is to be matches exactly what the deal ends up being.

The only people that are selling to that guy are people who "think" they are getting a fair price. Why do they think they are getting a fair price? Because the scammer deliberately made it look like he was offering a fair deal by disguising his shop to blend in with all the legitimate shops. You know what that is? A Scam.

warrioroftherose

i dont see how this would even be thought of as a scam?b:surrender

people are allowed to buy and sell things at what ever price they want.b:victory

i remember when ppl were using a npc wep to switch out durring a trade saying they were deicides. now thats a scam.b:sad

ppl should just take a little more time b4 they catshop. b:bye

Valirah - Sanctuary

warrioroftherose wrote: »

i dont see how this would even be thought of as a scam?b:surrender

people are allowed to buy and sell things at what ever price they want.b:victory

i remember when ppl were using a npc wep to switch out durring a trade saying they were deicides. now thats a scam.b:sad

ppl should just take a little more time b4 they catshop. b:bye

It floors me how people (and I use that term loosely) can actually claim that a scheme that TRICKS people into giving up their hard earned crystals for peanuts is not a scam. Are you so obtuse as to think that anyone is WILLINGLY selling their crystals for a few hundred coins? I am quite certain that no one who actually sold to that shop was expecting to get only a few coins in return.

TRICK + UNWILLING VICTIM = SCAM


People should stop defending the practices of bottom feeding scum.

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver

Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »

It floors me how people (and I use that term loosely) can actually claim that a scheme that TRICKS people into giving up their hard earned crystals for peanuts is not a scam. Are you so obtuse as to think that anyone is WILLINGLY selling their crystals for a few hundred coins? I am quite certain that no one who actually sold to that shop was expecting to get only a few coins in return.

TRICK + UNWILLING VICTIM = SCAM


People should stop defending the practices of bottom feeding scum.

hard earned coins, maybe not hard enough if they cant see the difference between 250 and 250000.

maybe ppl should study more maths or binary code to get used to read numbers *cough cough*

_UMadBro_ - Heavens Tear

Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »

It floors me how people (and I use that term loosely) can actually claim that a scheme that TRICKS people into giving up their hard earned crystals for peanuts is not a scam. Are you so obtuse as to think that anyone is WILLINGLY selling their crystals for a few hundred coins? I am quite certain that no one who actually sold to that shop was expecting to get only a few coins in return.

TRICK + UNWILLING VICTIM = SCAM


People should stop defending the practices of bottom feeding scum.

Hard earned crystals? LOL, takes 5min/run and this is a GAME ur talking about not RL let me remind you that.

truekossy

If someone sets up a shop in west arch saying they're buying tokens for 1 coin is that a scam?

Shayd - Raging Tide

No that's not illegal scam he is just trying to fool people.

FayHumming - Dreamweaver

b:laugh Is your own fault, not to check the price before sell/buy. Totally not a scam.

1.catshop title say sell rap 1.4m ,but in catshop price 140,000. You think this is scam? who fault?

Valirah - Sanctuary

truekossy wrote: »

If someone sets up a shop in west arch saying they're buying tokens for 1 coin is that a scam?

If the shop isn't set up to try to fool people into thinking they are buying at something other than 1 coin, no, it's not a scam. No trick = no scam, what's so hard to understand?

Shayd - Raging Tide wrote: »

No that's not illegal scam he is just trying to fool people.

If he's trying to fool people it's a scam, that is what a scam is. Whether the GMs chose to allow it doesn't make it any less a scam.

FayHumming - Dreamweaver wrote: »

title say sell rap 1.4m ,but in catshop price 140,000. You think this is scam? who fault?

That would clearly be a pricing error, you can't exactly scam yourself.

Phillio - Archosaur

I come across this a lot, people advertising 'best luck' then sell normal tokens for 4.5 mil. It's a scam, but not illegal imho. Just double check everything.

truekossy

Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »

If the shop isn't set up to try to fool people into thinking they are buying at something other than 1 coin, no, it's not a scam. No trick = no scam, what's so hard to understand?

And just what determines that if the price in the catshop's name is accurate (assuming they even shw a price)? Location? There are only so many places you can find the traffic to buy certain items and parking among other shops there simply makes sense. Name? There's a limited amount of ways to say you're buying here... further reinforced by catshop name limits. If you have the price you're buying for in the name, and you don't even NEED to make your price publicto be legit as long as you don't lie about the price you do have or do stacks with vastly different prices.

Phillio - Archosaur wrote: »

I come across this a lot, people advertising 'best luck' then sell normal tokens for 4.5 mil. It's a scam, but not illegal imho. Just double check everything.

Actual scams like this are what people get banned for. If the shop was saying tokens instead of best lucks, it'd simply be an absurd price.

What people in this thread are calling a scam is the same thing as someone sticking a demon pureheart (or a similar common and crappy skill book) in the AH for 200m. Nobody that pays even the slightest attention is gonna touch it... but there's nothing wrong with someone hoping a person is gonna be stupid or distracted enough to buy it anyway. The terms scam and **** are tossed around far too easily here when half the time it's the user's fault almost entirely. If the shop had at least a stack near whatever thousand people expected AND the low price one then sure, attempt to deceive and thus scam.


.. but that's not the case.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

truekossy wrote: »

And just what determines that if the price in the catshop's name is accurate (assuming they even shw a price)? Location? There are only so many places you can find the traffic to buy certain items and parking among other shops there simply makes sense. Name? There's a limited amount of ways to say you're buying here... further reinforced by catshop name limits. If you have the price you're buying for in the name, and you don't even NEED to make your price publicto be legit as long as you don't lie about the price you do have or do stacks with vastly different prices.



Actual scams like this are what people get banned for. If the shop was saying tokens instead of best lucks, it'd simply be an absurd price.

What people in this thread are calling a scam is the same thing as someone sticking a demon pureheart (or a similar common and crappy skill book) in the AH for 200m. Nobody that pays even the slightest attention is gonna touch it... but there's nothing wrong with someone hoping a person is gonna be stupid or distracted enough to buy it anyway. The terms scam and **** are tossed around far too easily here when half the time it's the user's fault almost entirely. If the shop had at least a stack near whatever thousand people expected AND the low price one then sure, attempt to deceive and thus scam.


.. but that's not the case.

Did you even check out the XBOX link that Astrelle posted? Have you ever seen one of those illegal knockoff handbags? Two IRL examples where the person isn't lying about the material fact of the item, but they are still considered scams by the Attorney General? Copying another shops title with the purposes of deceiving someone into thinking you're one thing when you are another is a scam. They are trying to deceive someone. Throwing an item in the AH? There is no attempt to scam there. The prices are obviously what they are and anyone who buys it knows the price and is agreeing to it. Just because the price is absurd doesn't matter. Again, a scam is a scam when there is an attempt to deceive. No deception = No Scam.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Have you ever seen one of those illegal knockoff handbags?

That is one thing that puzzles me about western consumers still. Most of these items are made in pakistan, india, bangladesh, chine, indonesia, malaysia (usually). These are often contracted factories. They may not put the lablel, or the final touches, but they do the heavy lifting. These same factories will sell that item on the local market at a fraction of the price, even supporting the same label, designs and final touches.

So shoes made by nike will be sold for 40~100 dollars in usa, but the same shoes back in those countries will cost 5 cents~1 dollar to acquire. That item will not be a knockoff either, it will be the original in terms of materials and quality.

This presents a very intriguing problem in economics, but i wouldn't call those factory sales to be scam b:chuckle. Just a thought b:pleased.

The xbox people, that just lacks creativity.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

That is one thing that puzzles me about western consumers still. Most of these items are made in pakistan, india, bangladesh, chine, indonesia, malaysia (usually). These are often contracted factories. They may not put the lablel, or the final touches, but they do the heavy lifting. These same factories will sell that item on the local market at a fraction of the price, even supporting the same label, designs and final touches.

So shoes made by nike will be sold for 40~100 dollars in usa, but the same shoes back in those countries will cost 5 cents~1 dollar to acquire. That item will not be a knockoff either, it will be the original in terms of materials and quality.

This presents a very intriguing problem in economics, but i wouldn't call those factory sales to be scam b:chuckle. Just a thought b:pleased.

The xbox people, that just lacks creativity.

The factory sales are not the "scam," it maybe outrageously priced, but there is no attempt to deceive.

Here is what I mean by the knockoff scam bags. http://sfcitizen.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/real-fake1.jpg As you can see it looks very similar on the outside to the real deal, although anyone paying attention and knowing that they wanted could tell the difference. In addition, if you check the name on the inside of the label. They never claim that they are a coach bag. They vendors that sell these bags often never actually lied and claimed that they were coach. There was no lie about the material item. Here's where it became a scam, they would often purposefully misspell it so that looks similar to someone who isn't paying attention. They would use the same advertising conventions and sales tags to make it look more legit. They would steal the naming convention, writing the fake name "caoch" in the same style that "coach" writes their name. For example here's an example of a misspelled bracelet. It's trading on the legitimacy and reputation of Tiffany and Co. but it's not them.


The replica bags became illegal though because of the same reason that shop is a scam. Nobody who bought the bags intended to make that particular transaction. They thought they were getting a good deal on a coach bag, not a lousy deal on a replica. They were using the looks to create deception and convince people to part with their hard earned money. Lookalike bags have now become very regulated in the US and certain replicas have become illegal to sell. (Not that stops anyone from doing so) Exactly because you shouldn't be having to look that closely or double checking a legitimate purchase of an item. This isn't a contract you're entering into where you it's expected of you to read the fine print and that is the norm. It's a commodity you're buying/selling and relying on deception to trick people into the transaction is a scam.

When you do sell a lookalike bag now, you have to make it extremely obvious that it's only a lookalike. Including saying that they are "inspired by" or "lookalike," or "Faux," and any other euphemism for copycat. There a lot of strict rules behind it because it's easy to fall into scam territory. As long as people know what they are getting when they purchase it from you, and you aren't being deceptive, it's not a scam.

This shop is doing essentially the same thing, borrowing the naming convention/style of prices and location to pretend that his shop is legitimate.

truekossy

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Did you even check out the XBOX link that Astrelle posted? Have you ever seen one of those illegal knockoff handbags? Two IRL examples where the person isn't lying about the material fact of the item, but they are still considered scams by the Attorney General? Copying another shops title with the purposes of deceiving someone into thinking you're one thing when you are another is a scam. They are trying to deceive someone. Throwing an item in the AH? There is no attempt to scam there. The prices are obviously what they are and anyone who buys it knows the price and is agreeing to it. Just because the price is absurd doesn't matter. Again, a scam is a scam when there is an attempt to deceive. No deception = No Scam.

Yes but that's a different scenario. They had a minor "not" hidden among completely irrelevant details to what was being sold as well as intentionally misleading adverts. As for stuff like the handbags or "bootlegs" and the like... between copyright laws and the sort, that should be fairly obvious.

The thing (and only reason I don't feel this is a scam) is that you're a lot more limited with what you can do in a catshop here that copying other catshop names is kinda a dubious argument here. Nobody would be complaining if the catshop was selling for 1.5k, buying for 1.2k and used the same name style as someone else. Instead they'd assume the catshop made a mistake and they were getting a great deal on their buy. Same if the shop was buying for a regular price but selling for far cheaper than normal. So why does it suddenly become a scam when it benefits the catshop more than the one dealing with it?

The biggest argument I've seen here falls apart if someone has a shop saying something like, "tokens 12k," and is selling for that price but buying for 20 coin when the shop name they copied is buying for 9999. If copying wasn't the norm and were an exception, if location didn't matter, if we had more freedom with our catshop names, or even if they had a single item in another stack that was the assumed price, I'd agree completely. As is, though, it sounds to me like another of the many catshops that are trying to buy for less than anyone thinking rationally will ever sell for. And while I consider that to be somewhat annoying among other things, I wouldn't consider it a scam until they started trying to hide it.

I'm not endorsing what is being done. I just don't feel it's a scam and that at worst, they should be warned and told to add some "k"s to their shop name or something.


But I also haven't bothered to check this specific shop so for all I know they may be doing some of the very things I mentioned would push it or it may be worse than I'n assuming. In which case, you'd be right about what that shop is doing being a scam and I can't argue otherwise.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

truekossy wrote: »

Yes but that's a different scenario. They had a minor "not" hidden among completely irrelevant details to what was being sold as well as intentionally misleading adverts. As for stuff like the handbags or "bootlegs" and the like... between copyright laws and the sort, that should be fairly obvious.

The thing (and only reason I don't feel this is a scam) is that you're a lot more limited with what you can do in a catshop here that copying other catshop names is kinda a dubious argument here. Nobody would be complaining if the catshop was selling for 1.5k, buying for 1.2k and used the same name style as someone else. Instead they'd assume the catshop made a mistake and they were getting a great deal on their buy. Same if the shop was buying for a regular price but selling for far cheaper than normal. So why does it suddenly become a scam when it benefits the catshop more than the one dealing with it?

The biggest argument I've seen here falls apart if someone has a shop saying something like, "tokens 12k," and is selling for that price but buying for 20 coin when the shop name they copied is buying for 9999. If copying wasn't the norm and were an exception, if location didn't matter, if we had more freedom with our catshop names, or even if they had a single item in another stack that was the assumed price, I'd agree completely. As is, though, it sounds to me like another of the many catshops that are trying to buy for less than anyone thinking rationally will ever sell for. And while I consider that to be somewhat annoying among other things, I wouldn't consider it a scam until they started trying to hide it.

I'm not endorsing what is being done. I just don't feel it's a scam and that at worst, they should be warned and told to add some "k"s to their shop name or something.


But I also haven't bothered to check this specific shop so for all I know they may be doing some of the very things I mentioned would push it or it may be worse than I'n assuming. In which case, you'd be right about what that shop is doing being a scam and I can't argue otherwise.

The reason scams do not work both ways is because you cannot scam yourself. You aren't tricking yourself into thinking you are getting something that you aren't. You know exactly what you are doing, and if you don't, you've made no attempt to know. Nobody has tricked you into thinking anything. Nobdy has deceived you. However, this shop IS trying to deceive. Why add the decimal there? Why not 14k? or 1400? Both could easily fit into the shop title. I'll answer that question. They are stealing the commonly accepted shop title abbreviation and hiding that information amongst the other other shop titles (much the same way the not was hidden by other text too btw) so that people who aren't being extremely careful will think that they getting a price that they are not. There is very much an intent to scam here.

And I can agree that perhaps a warning and perhaps removal of any ill gotten cannies/raps would be an appropriate punishment. Or perhaps a temp ban. I don't think anyone here is calling for him/her to be permanently banned and thrown out the game.

And the reason it falls apart when adding a "K" or being upfront about the price is because it removes the intention to deceive someone. No deception = No scam. This is why you cannot scam yourself. This is why bad pricing is not a scam in and of itself. This why donations are not scams. This is why all the things I listed that people are not happy with are not scams. There is no deception if your title is honest. BTW the tokens 12k thing is also not a scam. They have tokens and they are selling them for 12k. There is no buy price in the title. There aren't tricking you. They have tokens for 12k. As long as they weren't also selling tokens next to the 12k ones for 12 mil, it wouldn't be a scam. There isn't deception there. You assumed the buy price would be a good one since the sell price was fair. That's on you.

I realize it's a fine line. But the key to determining whether or not something is a scam is the intent to deceive. W/O deception, there is no scam.

edit: As for the catshops only having so many characters. It takes more characters to type 1.280 then ti does to type 1280. But the second price wouldn't make people think you were offering them for 1280000.