Is this considered a scam?

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide

Scam, not really; devious most definitely. The person will probably grow up to be a politician.

Scams I see mainly tend to be in WC, where someone is selling something, and states C/O (current offer) for x amount of coin, and then states a higher current offer, when in fact no one is offering anything. Or, someone with a multi-client does the above and has an offer from so and so, when in fact that other person is actually their other account, or a friend pushing up the price.

You notice this a lot when you see "any higher? Going once, twice..." then a few hours later hat person is trying to sell of again, or you see a different character selling the exact same item. Personally I won't buy anything from world chat sales.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

If a seller is selling canny for 520 is not a scam? (not directed at OIdpop), but if the buyer buys at 520 it starts turning into a scam?

Often times a seller will have packs, orbs, tt mats other items which are mispriced and are missing 1~2 zero, making something worth 100m, be worth 1m~10m. If someone buys it, everyone things awesome deal, no on stops to say, i just scammed that person. The powers to be forbid that we point a finger at ourselves. I have made 200m so far like that b:victory.

If a seller is buying an item at regular price, but selling that item with 1~3 extra zero, it becomes a scam? (tokens, teles, charms).

My friend and I were walking around arch, she picked up 30 fungus. She saw a shop buying for 3 coins each, she sold it to that shop, did we get scammed, knowing the price was 3 coins?

People setting up shops to buy items, but you can't sell them items, just so they can raise the market price for buying things, is that a scam? That one is b:chuckle, had the shop been able to buy at higher price, awesome, but setting up shop so you can't buy at that high price, that is not cool.

Charm prices going from 3m~8m, is that a scam by charm sellers? MP charms going from 750k to 5m, is that a scam?

Deviating from the normal pricing should not be considered a scam, most people who do vana, know about that seller, i don't even click on that shop anymore. If someone is really tired after a hard few hours of vana. Don't sell the mats, keep the mats and do it when more alert. Best case the banker has 5 raps and 5 canny to sell, often the selling share is smaller.

I wouldn't consider it a scam, but it is distasteful. The faction donation falls under similar rules for me. Sure people can donate, don't pay them 1 coin for it take it for free. If there is going to be payment, make it fair value and don't call it a donation.

No it's not a scam. There is no attempt to deceive someone in order to get their stuff. Your question has been answered already. Just because you don't like the price, it doesn't make it a scam. It's the attempt to deceive that makes it a scam. In this case, someone is creating a deceptive atmosphere by making it seem like their price is one thing, when it's actually another.

Look at the the XBOX boxes that were deemed scams by Ebay and the Justice department. It's the exact same thing. No where did it say people were buying the actual XBOX. But they made their advertisements look the exact same as an XBOX advertisement and used the atmosphere where people could get them on EBAY in order to deceive people into buying boxes.

As for the donations, a catshop is obviously necessary. It's not giving someone payment for the item, it's a donation. You are donating to your faction so the faction can buy things, like upgrades to the faction base. If the faction leader didn't put up a donation thing, then not everyone could donate because a faction leader can't be online 24/7 for days on end and you can only have so many messages in your mailbox. Not to mention it costs people 500 coins per message to send you the item, whereas if you put up a catshop it costs the person nothing to donate. 1 coin is the minimum price you can offer to buy something in a catshop.

Again, there is no attempt at deception. It flat out says donation. Just because someone people are under the bizarre impression that they should be compensated for giving gifts, doesn't mean they are being scammed. That person clearly just has on idea how donations actually works, because usually IRL a donation or gift isn't compensated either. Sometimes they might give you like an address sticker or a hug, but those items clearly do not come anywhere close to the monetary value of the items given. If you were given "real" compensation, you wouldn't be donating anything. You would be trading.

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

In the presented case, the misleading lies on the emplacement and time of the shop, not the items offered, their price or the the title of the shop. If that shop were situated in any other place without 2x, nobody would find it misleading. It would be called a rip-off maybe, which isn't an infraction unless it concerns specific categories.

Go see what her XBOX box example to see what the assistant to the attorney general had to say about using deception to get an item the way that person is doing it. They are doing the MMO version of that. They don't have to be lying about the actual item for it to be a scam. They could be creating a deceptive environment or misrepresenting who THEY are as well. Both of those are also scams.

Valirah - Sanctuary

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

If a seller is selling canny for 520 is not a scam? (not directed at OIdpop), but if the buyer buys at 520 it starts turning into a scam?

Often times a seller will have packs, orbs, tt mats other items which are mispriced and are missing 1~2 zero, making something worth 100m, be worth 1m~10m. If someone buys it, everyone things awesome deal, no on stops to say, i just scammed that person. The powers to be forbid that we point a finger at ourselves. I have made 200m so far like that b:victory.

If a seller is buying an item at regular price, but selling that item with 1~3 extra zero, it becomes a scam? (tokens, teles, charms).

My friend and I were walking around arch, she picked up 30 fungus. She saw a shop buying for 3 coins each, she sold it to that shop, did we get scammed, knowing the price was 3 coins?

Setting prices to buy super cheap or sell super expensive is not a scam. Both parties are aware of and consent to what is being exchanged. It becomes a scam when the transaction is set up in a way that one party misleads the other so that they are not aware of nor consent to the actual transaction and instead are basing their actions off of mislead perceptions.

Setting a shop in the middle of a bunch of others and using the same naming conventions but having drastically different prices is a scam. The swindler is using the surrounding shops to foster the impression that he is also buying/selling at similar prices when he is actually hoping to fleece the unwary.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Then I'll be more specific, here it wouldn't be a scam as a scam in the litteral translation refers to an infraction of lying/misleading on the componants of the transaction, which isn't the case here.

Why are you talking about "literal translation"? Scam is an English word and has an English definition.

scam [skaem] Slang
n.
A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle.
vb scams, scamming, scammed
(tr) to swindle (someone) by means of a trick

If there is any attempt to deceive or mislead someone at all its a scam. There is no requirement for lying.

It's not a hard concept to understand. If you were to put an empty box of cereal in the cereal aisle of the grocery store, and then write in tiny print on the back of the box "this box is empty", that's a scam.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

write in tiny print on the back of the box "this box is empty", that's a scam.

That is what insurance companies do to us b:chuckle. I see your point.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

This is a scam and the catshop's obvious intent is to deceive, let's keep things straight and simple. I'll grant the guy is not "technically" lying, that he's not "technically" in violation of any rule and that he "technically" deserves no punishment. But the problem is "smart" guys like this one do ruin it for the rest of us, why? Because eventully their behavious does lead to imitation by the like minded, and this eventually grows into a problem (which is the reason you now need teams of lawyers to go through what are otherwise pretty standard contracts, and all of us consumers pay for those) so, if this one guy gets some imitators and these guys in turn further scam and **** off the community eventually PWI may change (or reinterpret) ToS to go after them. The problem is the new rules will affect innocent bystanders as well, and people just going about bussiness as usual are going to find new roadblocks on their way. And yes, some "smart" jerk may even find a way to take advantage of all of this and further deceive some more people without "technically" lying.

This is dishonest behaviour and there's no defending it. Yes, the guy should not get banned, but there's no justifying what he's doing.

_Ghoul_ - Lost City

this is a scam.

catshop near with other catshop selling for a certain prices while this catshop put on its titel a price with no k.

if he was say 100 meter away from the main catshops alone this might make ppl aware
but no he is with the main catshops buy and sell nv mats and this is the scam.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is dishonest behaviour and there's no defending it. Yes, the guy should not get banned, but there's no justifying what he's doing.

I agree wholeheartedly with that b:pleased. A good name in the market goes a long way, than these petty scams, once people understand that reputation counts for something, they either sink or reach new heights and stop using petty measures, usually.

In the big leagues, there is no room for petty behaviour. Selling 5k packs, price one for 6m, not much of a profit gain. If selling that many packs, people will get good items, people will tell friends, and friends might buy some to try out luck. If you price them like 6m, most people won't come back to your shop.

scarlettbonita

b:surrender

tweakz

If the banker of your run sells to the shop and doesn't take responsibility; who are you more upset with? For me; it would be the banker.

That's not including the possibility that they're also the same person.

Cathulion - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

If the banker of your run sells to the shop and doesn't take responsibility; who are you more upset with? For me; it would be the banker.

That's not including the possibility that they're also the same person.

The banker would lose coins regardless as it needs to be dropped and split so it's really like they are buying the cannies/raps without telling squad.

Valirah - Sanctuary

tweakz wrote: »

If the banker of your run sells to the shop and doesn't take responsibility; who are you more upset with? For me; it would be the banker.

That's not including the possibility that they're also the same person.

Did the banker **** up big time, yes. Should they have to eat the whole cost of the blunder which was done while doing work on behalf of the entire squad?

Banking is a thankless PITA that most people are too lazy to want to bother with. You have to keep tabs on who gets what, make sure everyone drops what they have, calculate and divide splits and then track down the best prices for any leftovers. It's not like bankers are getting paid to take on this extra labor and responsibility, they are stepping up to do a job that needs doing while 5/6 of the squad twiddles thumbs.

tweakz

Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »

Did the banker **** up big time, yes. Should they have to eat the whole cost of the blunder which was done while doing work on behalf of the entire squad?

Banking is a thankless PITA that most people are too lazy to want to bother with. You have to keep tabs on who gets what, make sure everyone drops what they have, calculate and divide splits and then track down the best prices for any leftovers. It's not like bankers are getting paid to take on this extra labor and responsibility, they are stepping up to do a job that needs doing while 5/6 of the squad twiddles thumbs.

I'm dyslexic. -I eat my mistakes. Stupid is no different; they should eat theirs. There's always the choice to decline on banking.

Banking isn't thankless. Banker gets first dibs on buying the drops. Banker decides when to sell and how much. By banking yourself; you avoid the ones that want to buy at low ball prices.

There's a cleric on HT that seems like they take anyone to Caster that pm's them. On top of this; they take 2x as long as the run to sell / split. That person is thanked by not getting pms from the good players who care about their time.

Finally the whole banking scheme was cleverly concocted by dishonest people (dishonest includes superstitious). It's not a fair system, and certainly not the best. IMO; drops should be random -the way the game intended them. If not; people should bid on all drops before the run and have drops on free.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

This is not about who you get upset with and who you "feel" is more responsable on a hypothetical is off topic... The catshop means to profit using deception, this is a scam, objectively this is fraud. Whether the banking system is fair or not has no bearing on the actual issue, even if you look beyond the assumptions and generalizations in this premise. I know for a fact many players take on banking as a service and at a loss, it does no good service to some of the more involved people in our community to credit unfounded allegations about the so called banking "scheme".

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is not about who you get upset with and who you "feel" is more responsable on a hypothetical is off topic... The catshop means to profit using deception, this is a scam, objectively this is fraud. Whether the banking system is fair or not has no bearing on the actual issue, even if you look beyond the assumptions and generalizations in this premise. I know for a fact many players take on banking as a service and at a loss, it does no good service to some of the more involved people in our community to credit unfounded allegations about the so called banking "scheme".

This. I always split evenly and fairly. There isn't anything to gain from banking besides the peace of mind in knowing you won't be ripped off. And the game gives us two options for squad distribution for a reason, because random drops isn't always the best nor most fair and reasonable option.

Oo_Spud_oO - Sanctuary

Answer to original post, Its a scam, and peeps that do it are plebs b:bye

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Why are you talking about "literal translation"? Scam is an English word and has an English definition.

If there is any attempt to deceive or mislead someone at all its a scam. There is no requirement for lying.

It's not a hard concept to understand. If you were to put an empty box of cereal in the cereal aisle of the grocery store, and then write in tiny print on the back of the box "this box is empty", that's a scam.

First off all, your case with the xbox boxes is different from the OP. It's similar to selling charms for pages. I agree that is a scam.

Scam = misleading/trickery on the substance = 1 of the 3 reasons that can lead to annulation.
Besides that, there are a multitude of "immoral actions" that can lead to cancellation at the best.

Ofc, I don't reason in US or English law and jurispridence. That's why I translate. With globalization basics in law are pretty much the same and thus have litteral translations. The reason I don't consider it a scam, is that the shop in question if found in the cube before 2x would be only getting comments at the low price. Therefore I don't see the emplacement as a caracteristic in the action of selling a canny.

And yeah, I see you refer to a simple dictionairy. Scam is not just an english word. It's also law terminology/definition. That's why I said, if you refer to a dictionaire (i.e. the common use of that word) I agree with whatever you want. Since the topic refering to a ban, I personally think that isn't the appropriate way to look at it though.

Valirah - Sanctuary

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

The reason I don't consider it a scam, is that the shop in question if found in the cube before 2x would be only getting comments at the low price. Therefore I don't see the emplacement as a caracteristic in the action of selling a canny.

It would still be a scam even if placed in cube, it would just be a crappier one. The swindler is mimicking naming conventions used by legitimate shops to make it seem like he's offering a good deal in the hopes that he finds some people with fingers faster than their brains.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

First off all, your case with the xbox boxes is different from the OP. It's similar to selling charms for pages. I agree that is a scam.

Scam = misleading/trickery on the substance = 1 of the 3 reasons that can lead to annulation.
Besides that, there are a multitude of "immoral actions" that can lead to cancellation at the best.

Ofc, I don't reason in US or English law and jurispridence. That's why I translate. With globalization basics in law are pretty much the same and thus have litteral translations. The reason I don't consider it a scam, is that the shop in question if found in the cube before 2x would be only getting comments at the low price. Therefore I don't see the emplacement as a caracteristic in the action of selling a canny.

And yeah, I see you refer to a simple dictionairy. Scam is not just an english word. It's also law terminology/definition. That's why I said, if you refer to a dictionaire (i.e. the common use of that word) I agree with whatever you want. Since the topic refering to a ban, I personally think that isn't the appropriate way to look at it though.

Whether this qualifies as a scam or not legally, its within PWI's authority to ban for any reason they deem necessary. I personally view it as a scam because its an action with the goal of decieving for profit.

PWI doesn't need a reason to ban a person, but a person who intentionally causes distress by placing a catshop buying for 1/1000th of the price amongst other shops with the hope of ripping someone off is bad for the community. They are preying on the unaware, and this should be something PWI bans people for because it makes for a wary, unhappy community.

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Whether this qualifies as a scam or not legally, its within PWI's authority to ban for any reason they deem necessary. I personally view it as a scam because its an action with the goal of decieving for profit.

PWI doesn't need a reason to ban a person, but a person who intentionally causes distress by placing a catshop buying for 1/1000th of the price amongst other shops with the hope of ripping someone off is bad for the community. They are preying on the unaware, and this should be something PWI bans people for because it makes for a wary, unhappy community.

True, I drifted a bit of topic. How to call it isn't really the problem, it's the attitude that is. PWE only needs to have something in their ToS to be able to ban, and without looking for it we can all be sure they have several openings to do so if only they wanted.

And from the 1st post, I do agree the person should be banned. I'm not defending the person in any way b:surrender

MyMate - Dreamweaver

Is it just me that wanna know who got scammed with this type of scam so I can blacklist them? o.o I never wanna squad with someone that pays so little attention to what he/she is doing. Actually, I would go as far as saying the catshop doing this should announce who is selling to him in world chat to inform the world to look out for them. You think FC babies is bad? This is worse! b:angry








Or maybe not...b:surrender

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

First off all, your case with the xbox boxes is different from the OP. It's similar to selling charms for pages. I agree that is a scam.

Scam = misleading/trickery on the substance = 1 of the 3 reasons that can lead to annulation.
Besides that, there are a multitude of "immoral actions" that can lead to cancellation at the best.

Ofc, I don't reason in US or English law and jurispridence. That's why I translate. With globalization basics in law are pretty much the same and thus have litteral translations. The reason I don't consider it a scam, is that the shop in question if found in the cube before 2x would be only getting comments at the low price. Therefore I don't see the emplacement as a caracteristic in the action of selling a canny.

And yeah, I see you refer to a simple dictionary. Scam is not just an english word. It's also law terminology/definition. That's why I said, if you refer to a dictionaire (i.e. the common use of that word) I agree with whatever you want. Since the topic refering to a ban, I personally think that isn't the appropriate way to look at it though.

It's pretty much the exact same thing as the XBOX boxes. The XBOX boxes being sold copied the naming convention and look of actual xbox sellers in the hopes that people wouldn't notice the small print. But they NEVER actually lied about what was being sold. If you took that same ad and put it on a sheet of paper as a yard sell ad, nobody would have fallen for it. Because the naming convention was mimicking that of EBAY sellers. It's pretty much the same thing. Another example is the illegal knockoff designer handbags. Those bags have labels that clearly mark them as not the real thing, but by stealing the look they are creating a false impression about what the bag is with the intent to deceive.

As for legally speaking, PWI can ban us anytime for any reason they want. So there isn't a reason not to punish this type of behavior.

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver

i dont consider it a scam if there is no "k" on the shop name.

for example, lets say i want to buy matchless wings. worth ~90-100M, yet i wanna buy for 80, am i a scamer?

technically uncannies and raps worth 1 coin each. nothing in game said it had to be 250k and 1.3M... its players who set that price, why someone couldnt try to buy for almost nothing?

looks like a scam, but well, look at prices.

Night$aber - Dreamweaver

i dont consider it a scam if there is no "k" on the shop name.

for example, lets say i want to buy matchless wings. worth ~90-100M, yet i wanna buy for 80, am i a scamer?

technically uncannies and raps worth 1 coin each. nothing in game said it had to be 250k and 1.3M... its players who set that price, why someone couldnt try to buy for almost nothing?

looks like a scam, but well, look at prices.

+1 b:chuckle

Xainou - Sanctuary

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

for example, lets say i want to buy matchless wings. worth ~90-100M, yet i wanna buy for 80, am i a scamer?

Bad comparism.

There is a certain price range on those farmables. And the scammer is just playing with people expecting him to buy for that price too, while technically not scamming. Pretty deceiving and banworthy if you ask me.

scruncy

rofl, so i your opinion a player should get banned cuz he does not want to buy a item for the price YOU think is right?

Everybody can buy and sell items for whatever amount he wants. If i want to buy cannies for 50 coins then i can do so. If you find buyers/sellers for those prices is a different story.
If you dont like the prices dont buy or sell.

Not a scam and for sure not bannable.

Haila - Sanctuary

Maybe catshop is technically not scamming but the owner is a SCAMMER .......

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Someone told me that when he saw a shop like that he right click on the player and report hacking and he told me that after that he don't see the shop anymore. Try it i guess.

People need to be careful when they sell something to a catshop and check the price more than one time, as the same when people set a catshop they need to verify the price they put more than one time.

Fiery_Demon - Heavens Tear

Yes, it's scam.


But not technically something that could get you banned.


So basically, it's just a smart business scheme and if you fall for it, you can only blame yourself. And if you're smart enough to make money that way, why not?

_Synergy_ - Heavens Tear

The time you start stressing over a game, you know it's time to move on. I lost 50m on packs lol who cares, its virtual cash anyway.
You can always make it back and how much difference does it make anyway, PWI takes it revenge on everyone with refining lool.