APS Nerf, <-RUMOR

FanFon - Dreamweaver

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Pretty sure (in fact I know for a fact) that non-aps squads stay alive just fine without you guys. Now you could legitimately argue prices for things would go because of supply going down if there were no aps. But I got news for you, any tank can do that whole keeping squad alive job. And APS isn't what's keeping others alive. This also would imply that these guys are in squads with wizzies, psys, etc. Which they clearly aren't. So how is someone who you aren't running with keeping you alive in an instance?

Venus I agree with you. The problem lies with the fact before aps came around barbs still weren't the most popular class and still aren't...... Outside of pk i think the barb population that are mains are near zero

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

FanFon - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Venus I agree with you. The problem lies with the fact before aps came around barbs still weren't the most popular class and still aren't...... Outside of pk i think the barb population that are mains are near zero

This is true, but I think people were too focused on barbs in squad back then. I used to run with bms as tanks all the time, and it worked out fine. I know seekers do a pretty decent job too if you let them. I tend to use hf on my sin and sage magic shell to increase channeling on my cleric to help them maintain aggro.

Mr_Punkster - Dreamweaver

Plain and simple....this game will die fast if they nerf aps down to 2.0 even.

MANY will quit...most of those are the ones who spent real money on zen to get that gear. Lack of capital intake will cause the game to become extinct. The game is too old to fix something which so many have adapted to. The problem isn't aps, but rather the lame players who go with "aps only" squads. I myself don't mind only 1 or 2 aps characters in a squad...the point is to have fun. Spending hours in one instance isn't fun.

I was around before the days of aps, and I can definitely say the game is way more fun being able to get a lot more done during my time on. Most players these days have many alts with daily quests/things needed to be done...who wants to spend ALL of there time on one run?

My final note on the matter of aps: a true aps squad isn't just attack-spark-attack but rather a synchronization with debuffs/boss attacks. If the squad works well enough together, there is skill involved.

Just some food for thought.
You don't agree? Well then I agree to disagree.

on and other note...

A MUCH larger issue has an easier fix...put a min. lvl of 75 on FC!!! This will force players to actually quest and LEARN how to use their characters.

Kamiisama - Dreamweaver

I remember when having TT80 Gold was an accomplishment. Ahhh the good old days. b:laugh

Bobobejumbo - Raging Tide

Mr_Punkster - Dreamweaver wrote: »

on and other note...

A MUCH larger issue has an easier fix...put a min. lvl of 75 on FC!!! This will force players to actually quest and LEARN how to use their characters.

This already exist, it's just easily avoidable.

Mr_Punkster - Dreamweaver

Bobobejumbo - Raging Tide wrote: »

This already exist, it's just easily avoidable.

the min lvl req is to OPEN FC is 75...not the same thing as making it a min to ENTER :P

Bobobejumbo - Raging Tide

Mr_Punkster - Dreamweaver wrote: »

on and other note...

A MUCH larger issue has an easier fix...put a min. lvl of 75 on FC!!! This will force players to actually quest and LEARN how to use their characters.

Mr_Punkster - Dreamweaver wrote: »

the min lvl req is to OPEN FC is 75...not the same thing as making it a min to ENTER :P

In my defense, you didn't say to enter, you just said on =P

Mr_Punkster - Dreamweaver

Bobobejumbo - Raging Tide wrote: »

In my defense, you didn't say to enter, you just said on =P

yea yea I knooow...but I also didn't need to go into detail on the off-topic problem either

so take :P that! and :P that! b:chuckle

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

XxRagzxx - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm guessing you haven't seen any barbs around with less than 11k HP in tiger form, and the only thing they are good for are buffing and dying, or barbs that don't even try to keep agro to tank in nonaps squads. Not to mention all the clerics who rather buy fashion, than refine a weapon, or at least get a decent one to heal with. IMO, this game isn't about depending on others for anything. It's about you trying to advance as far as you can on your own, or with 1 other person. Full squads can't do what a sin by themselves or a sin/bm/barb/archer that's APS with a cleric. The game has changed, if you want to spend hours in ONE instance for mats for your armor, than this game ISN'T for you. I don't understand how it's so hard to adapt to a game, or gtfo.

The point of an MMO is to play with other people. If you don't want to to, fine. But it's clearly a failure on the part of the developers when its better to play an MMO alone. And I do just fine on my cleric.

Tsukyini - Raging Tide

Mr_Punkster - Dreamweaver wrote: »

A MUCH larger issue has an easier fix...put a min. lvl of 75 on FC!!! This will force players to actually quest and LEARN how to use their characters.

Wicked Pirates say hi. b:cute

If powerleveling methods exist, there will always be people who use them. You can't force people to level slowly if they can access the means to speed up the process.

Seascraper - Sanctuary

_Ghoul_ - Lost City wrote: »

umm i am a barb and what am i to tank ur sin take all the tank away and with bp even cleric is less and less needed.
when you have played long enough come back and plz play a real class as far as i know the barb was pwe tank and no where does sin STAND out as a tank or should i read you the barb and assasin subcription when one make a new toon.

next time you wish to troll make it more legit acting as sin is tank wtf
take away sin aps and you cant tank that is my friend cos assasin is not a real tank that
was barbarians role so again stop trolling b:surrender

seeker tanks full exp room without cleric my lv82 seeker does it just with bp.
youre just QQing because u cant have a good effect on you of bp like aoe melee classes can wich are currently bm and seeker.
bm can aoe full room without a cleric also (aoe stun -> hf) on a squad the effect is that mobs will die be4 stun wear of and even if it wears of while the bm does its aoe (bp case) he will still stand up so once again cleric is not needed.

these are the most famous QQs
5 aps QQ nerf it <---- stupid its not a broken feature and shouldnt be called so

bp QQ heals to much <--- then you dont know what youre talking about its just 2% do you know that bp keeps sins or any class up but the charm ticks way more often than what a barb charm would tick

Seeker vortex (buffed with bp) <

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its his fault that clerics arent needed in FCC this **** is totally wrong theres less clerics because most ppl play other classes there isnt alot of ppl who actually like to stand healing someone else. its not like beeing in the middle of the action.

also QQ psys reflect skill (dont remember the name) with soulforce its OP<

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soulforce only works in pk mode also if ure in TW call a veno to purge the damn psy <.<

then there is those real QQs that should somehow being changed
r9 wiz with some refines aoe in TW = dead team a well aimed strike kills most of your enemies...
r9 psy with all of its def lvl and its soulforce increasing the dmg on their reflect skill (they could nerf the soulforce effect on reflect skill) but its pretty much pointles as i said already bring a veno

truekossy

@Above skimmed but figured I'd point out you can't purge psy buffs.

Seascraper - Sanctuary

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

ROTFL! When you see a herc solo anything permasparked or a nix PK by stunlocking and permasparked we can talk. When you see a veno PT with hercs take on regular NV in under 4 minutes we can talk. Until then your points are quite baseless. As I said earlier only people as nutty as you think a 5 APS permasparked sin taking down a fully buffed lvl 100 herc in 2 seconds and a nix in less than a second is fair and balanced since you insist on comparing my CS items to yours. Fact is that hercs can not do what an APS character can so you trying to compare the 2 as "equally acquired for the same reasons" is an incredibly flawed argument.

you forget that if you buf your bramble protection the sin will still get dmged back wake up -.-

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Seascraper - Sanctuary wrote: »

seeker tanks full exp room without cleric my lv82 seeker does it just with bp.

Thats not doing it without heals. BP is a heal. If there isn't a sin in squad, that seeker would definitely need a cleric. They need an effective heal, doesn't matter if it's from cleric/mystic/sin it just has to keep them healed. And how is QQ about Rank9 wizards legitimate QQ but people saying 5aps is ridiculous, when it costs far, far less than rank 9 illegitimate? Even the devs have admitted it needs to be less effective, but so far haven't really done much to change it. Hopefully this new attack/defense level system makes things a bit better since it sounds like pve-wise it gives non-aps a comparable gain.

Xainou - Sanctuary

Seascraper - Sanctuary wrote: »

you forget that if you buf your bramble protection the sin will still get dmged back wake up -.-

You do realize that bramble doesn't work in open pk, right...?

Euthymius - Heavens Tear

Seascraper - Sanctuary wrote: »

also QQ psys reflect skill (dont remember the name) with soulforce its OP<

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soulforce only works in pk mode also if ure in TW call a veno to purge the damn psy <.<

then there is those real QQs that should somehow being changed

r9 psy with all of its def lvl and its soulforce increasing the dmg on their reflect skill (they could nerf the soulforce effect on reflect skill) but its pretty much pointles as i said already bring a veno

Just a quick nit-pick:

People dont worry much about SoV as much as they do about SoS (being silenced on almost every 3rd attack from a Psychic with 50k+ Soulforce). You also cant purge those skills (in all fairness, purging a self-buff that has a 10minute cooldown wouldnt be balanced).

That aside, the only other complaint Ive heard was about SoSt, which has its stun-time increased via Soulforce. I personally wouldnt mind if the chance for Silence/Stun duration was capped at 25%/6 seconds max respectively, but Psys arent OP outside of those things.

Mr_Punkster - Dreamweaver

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The point of an MMO is to play with other people. If you don't want to to, fine. But it's clearly a failure on the part of the developers when its better to play an MMO alone. And I do just fine on my cleric.

You CAN still play with other people without the "QQ APS RAGE". I'm sure plenty of people still play old school on alts for fun. All aps does is lower mats prices to the point where everyone can afford them.

I'm a 5aps archer who can tank almost any boss....but I need a cleric. I will still prefer to play with others when my sin reaches 100, especially a mixed squad.

So I have 2 questions for you:

1. Why does it matter if some choose to solo things?

2. How does aps really effect you since it's mainly a lvl99+ (more 100+) issue?

This shouldn't even be an issue!!! Play how you want to play with the people you want to play with!! You don't want a high aps tank? Then don't run with an aps tank!

Feel free to refer to my first post in this thread as to why this is an unintelligent topic.

EDIT: I don't PvP/PK so I can't speak for them on the topic...tho I'm sure there are other ways fix to any issue without nerfing aps

Bobobejumbo - Raging Tide

Seascraper - Sanctuary wrote: »

seeker tanks full exp room without cleric my lv82 seeker does it just with bp.
youre just QQing because u cant have a good effect on you of bp like aoe melee classes can wich are currently bm and seeker.
bm can aoe full room without a cleric also (aoe stun -> hf) on a squad the effect is that mobs will die be4 stun wear of and even if it wears of while the bm does its aoe (bp case) he will still stand up so once again cleric is not needed.

lolwut? Barbs can AoE with BP heals too. And I can do the whole exp room without BP, a charm, or a cleric.

Seascraper - Sanctuary

Xainou - Sanctuary wrote: »

You do realize that bramble doesn't work in open pk, right...?

well still have bramble hood that is possible to use in pk if im not mystaken secondly for what ive seen it works in 1v1

Seascraper - Sanctuary

Bobobejumbo - Raging Tide wrote: »

lolwut? Barbs can AoE with BP heals too. And I can do the whole exp room without BP, a charm, or a cleric.

lol what? what lvl is your barb? never seen a barb doing it without heals/cleric/charm secondly bp heals for the dmg that your aoes deal/cooldowns thought would not make up for it or arent u including captain debuf? same as heaven's flame

Seascraper - Sanctuary

truekossy wrote: »

@Above skimmed but figured I'd point out you can't purge psy buffs.

the 10 min reflect buff can at least i think so otherwise how would you actually beat a psy? even teaming up turns it almost impossible

Seascraper - Sanctuary

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Thats not doing it without heals. BP is a heal. If there isn't a sin in squad, that seeker would definitely need a cleric. They need an effective heal, doesn't matter if it's from cleric/mystic/sin it just has to keep them healed. And how is QQ about Rank9 wizards legitimate QQ but people saying 5aps is ridiculous, when it costs far, far less than rank 9 illegitimate? Even the devs have admitted it needs to be less effective, but so far haven't really done much to change it. Hopefully this new attack/defense level system makes things a bit better since it sounds like pve-wise it gives non-aps a comparable gain.

i know bp its a heal but cant it come from an outsider? like a 30 mins bp be4 going in the instance dont even really need to be someone in squad just go outside and ask for the buf

Xainou - Sanctuary

Dude, there's a multiquote function. Use it instead of quadruple-posting. b:shocked

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Mr_Punkster - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You CAN still play with other people without the "QQ APS RAGE". I'm sure plenty of people still play old school on alts for fun. All aps does is lower mats prices to the point where everyone can afford them.

I'm a 5aps archer who can tank almost any boss....but I need a cleric. I will still prefer to play with others when my sin reaches 100, especially a mixed squad.

So I have 2 questions for you:

1. Why does it matter if some choose to solo things?

2. How does aps really effect you since it's mainly a lvl99+ (more 100+) issue?

This shouldn't even be an issue!!! Play how you want to play with the people you want to play with!! You don't want a high aps tank? Then don't run with an aps tank!

Feel free to refer to my first post in this thread as to why this is an unintelligent topic.

When a game structures it that solo play is more effective, the rational thing to do is play by yourself. Since most people are going to make this decision, the people who will play old school anyway goes down. This means less people for squads. The net affect of aps is that people rush to 100 on sins/bms (all i ever see is sins) and don't do the quests, don't run TTs (effectively killing a market I used to make decent money in), don't bother learning how to play their character (and as a cleric with sage rez, i am the only in squad who gets a real penalty for this,), and refuse to do unwined bhs/fbs which is increasingly trickle down to even the low level easy bhs. I see people demanding wine for bh51, and usually isince those players are broke, they insist we all split the costs. More than that, it created a controversy and unhappiness amongst the playerbase. Making people in general ruder, and less willing to help. I've also have been asked and only gotten into squads because my aps on my sin is only missing a tome and is nearly maxxed for it's level. Which is stupid because aps doesn't even matter until 4/5aps. I've seen others get kicked because they didn't have the max aps for their level. This is all low level things, mind you.


It's actually the same phenomenon you see all over the world, any time you have a collective group of people trying to reach a certain goal. You have the free-rider problem, people who don't want to contribute their fair share because they know they'll get the rewards. Take those clerics for example. What rational person would want to pay a stranger when they get the run for free? And people will probably make the most rational choice for them as well. That's why the game needs to have a reward (besides just nostalgia) for doing things a different way. Otherwise that content becomes devalued and the people who want to do it, can't. Just like you have penalties for people not to do behaviors that you don't want them to do. The fact that nobody got banned for goon glitching is precisely why so many people did it. The first few days, people weren't brazenly doing it. They were sneaking into squads with guildmates and you didn't see constant wc spam for it. When they realized that people weren't going to be punished for violating the ToS, they became pretty brazen with their behavior.

Seascraper - Sanctuary wrote: »

i know bp its a heal but cant it come from an outsider? like a 30 mins bp be4 going in the instance dont even really need to be someone in squad just go outside and ask for the buf

Doesn't matter where you got it, or when. What matters is that you can't do it without it. If something went wrong, would you be able to get back up, rebuff without leaving the instance and do it again? No? Then you can't do it without another classes heals.

Sir_Puma - Raging Tide

Seascraper - Sanctuary wrote: »

lol what? what lvl is your barb? never seen a barb doing it without heals/cleric/charm secondly bp heals for the dmg that your aoes deal/cooldowns thought would not make up for it or arent u including captain debuf? same as heaven's flame

It's doable in tt90 gear if u know what ur doing...Lure all slowly, using 1-2 crab meats to keep hp up..When all is gathered, invoke --> go human --> ToP on genie --> arma --> go back in tiger before invoke wears off, use frighten to lower their atk and finish them off taking another crab meat or 2.. No BP needed. It's called , knowing to play their class and compensate for possible weaknesses. You can even use True emptyness if u have it on ur genie when invoke wears off so all magics will tickle you, or even solid shield to lower damage...

Seascraper - Sanctuary

Euthymius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Just a quick nit-pick:

People dont worry much about SoV as much as they do about SoS (being silenced on almost every 3rd attack from a Psychic with 50k+ Soulforce). You also cant purge those skills (in all fairness, purging a self-buff that has a 10minute cooldown wouldnt be balanced).

That aside, the only other complaint Ive heard was about SoSt, which has its stun-time increased via Soulforce. I personally wouldnt mind if the chance for Silence/Stun duration was capped at 25%/6 seconds max respectively, but Psys arent OP outside of those things.

well sorry for the multi posts i didnt felt like multi quoting because i actually read everything. i thought it was possible to purge psy buf cus even though its 10 min cooldown its also a 10 min buf in other games this buf wouldnt remain after dead wich would make you still wait on cooldown.
anyway the point is that its still possible to kill a psy.

also the MAIN QQ I SEE IN ALL POSTS IS 5APS AND SINS OP... wen i saw a herc veno trying to say that he had the right to solo just because he takes more time for him to solo it completely pissed me off... i mean really? veno is not meant to tank what i mean is that if sin/bm shouldnt be rightfully able to solo same as a herc then take the herc advantage also out of venos... thats what i would say to someone who thinks he has all the rights

Bobobejumbo - Raging Tide

Seascraper - Sanctuary wrote: »

lol what? what lvl is your barb? never seen a barb doing it without heals/cleric/charm secondly bp heals for the dmg that your aoes deal/cooldowns thought would not make up for it or arent u including captain debuf? same as heaven's flame

Who needs heals with Invoke, Beastial Rage, Armageddon? Slam if anything managed to survive.

BTW, Armageddon, Sunder, Slam, Swell, and Surf Impact are all AoE's that benefit from BP heals.

And umm my level is right over there

<

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Tsukyini - Raging Tide

Bobobejumbo - Raging Tide wrote: »

lolwut? Barbs can AoE with BP heals too. And I can do the whole exp room without BP, a charm, or a cleric.

Orly? Prove it!b:chuckle

.... I'll meet you at the big room.

Jadsia - Lost City

Mr_Punkster - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Plain and simple....this game will die fast if they nerf aps down to 2.0 even.

MANY will quit...most of those are the ones who spent real money on zen to get that gear. Lack of capital intake will cause the game to become extinct. The game is too old to fix something which so many have adapted to. The problem isn't aps, but rather the lame players who go with "aps only" squads. I myself don't mind only 1 or 2 aps characters in a squad...the point is to have fun. Spending hours in one instance isn't fun.

I was around before the days of aps, and I can definitely say the game is way more fun being able to get a lot more done during my time on. Most players these days have many alts with daily quests/things needed to be done...who wants to spend ALL of there time on one run?

My final note on the matter of aps: a true aps squad isn't just attack-spark-attack but rather a synchronization with debuffs/boss attacks. If the squad works well enough together, there is skill involved.

Just some food for thought.
You don't agree? Well then I agree to disagree.

on and other note...

A MUCH larger issue has an easier fix...put a min. lvl of 75 on FC!!! This will force players to actually quest and LEARN how to use their characters.

I'll go even further. Level restrictions on every FB instance as well as HH. No more lvl 1 toons in those to help open. Also lets give regular NV the same talisman requirement that casters get. We get 4 keys a day so limit the run to 4 talismans a day too. I say revert FC back into a mat and gear producing instance like HH and Lunar.

Blaxton - Raging Tide

A barb would be similar to the BM and might not even need Bloodpaint. Invoke>Roar>Sunder. If the DDs can take down a good majority of the mobs before Invoke wears off, Sunder should be good enough to heal through the rest if it's at a decent level. And then there's Solid Shield, ToP on genie, crab meat, etc, to help out.

At my level when I solo FC, Mire>Demon Sunder>Demon Arma destroys most if not all of the mobs in any pull, and I get insane heals from BP, especially with a zerk on Arma... up to about 1.5k hp per 30-50 mobs (maybe more? Never counted how many mobs are in the standard pulls xD). Too bad that doesn't recover over time rofl.