Sage Vs. Demon - READ FIRST!!!

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  • Kerona - Sanctuary
    Kerona - Sanctuary Posts: 1,771 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    *ignores what Ruvie posts because it does not involve cake*
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary
    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    This stuff gets complicated, but for a first approximation: burst dps boost from demon increased crit rate boost on stunning arrow makes a demon's burst dps roughly matches sage base dps.

    But demons can exceed sage dps by stacking to burst increases.

    Something similar happens with quickshot (but, again, when you try to nail down the details it gets complicated).

    Then again, demons can fire buff+triple spark+crit boost+quickshot and a sage cannot beat that for normal attack burst dps. Then again, sage should have run from that red cone (since obviously the demon was not killable while firebuffing). Then again, even two of those will give the demon a burst normal attack dps that beats sage normal attack dps. (And yes, I am oversimplifying treatment of triple spark and how demon triple spark and demon quickshot work and so on...)

    because 2.5% higher base dps is equal to 10% or 30% individual procs.

    Special
    I give up on beign a blademaster. Gonna go wave my tranny **** around and pew pew.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Then again, demons can fire buff+triple spark+crit boost+quickshot and a sage cannot beat that for normal attack burst dps.

    LOL. In a real world 1v1... I wonder who'll stick around for that combo... unless the guy is afk grabbing drinks or something. And in group pvp... who'll actually need that combo... unless of course you are under-geared compare to the guy you are trying to kill.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Allynna_ - Dreamweaver
    Allynna_ - Dreamweaver Posts: 254 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Just out of Curiosity, why would you use Quick Shot AFTER Demon spark? I mean it is a LITTLE better of a speed boost, but it just seems like Windsheilding, or Cycloning after Dspark (rather redundant and wasteful).

    Also, one thing people seem to miss with the math here is that Garnet shards, arrows, attack charms and Might Rings, and +patk adds all add to an Archer's weapon damage (too many posts that seem to not realize that). I mean it might only get up to 800-1000 more weapon damage, but when you only have 3500 with +12 Rank 9, that's close to a quarter of your damage.
  • KedgeSniper - Lost City
    KedgeSniper - Lost City Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    LOL. In a real world 1v1... I wonder who'll stick around for that combo... unless the guy is afk grabbing drinks or something. And in group pvp... who'll actually need that combo... unless of course you are under-geared compare to the guy you are trying to kill.

    This demon archer would do! \/

    KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »
    Fleuri scenario.. with an archer with 500 hp afk/lagging/without pots/without genie/without charms/withouth pdef/mdef charms/without a whole squad/ getting chase by a phoenix/bleeding/stun/seal/armor n magic pen AND FIGHTING A +5 99 Weapon SAGE ARCHER!.

    Thats close to the 1v1 scenarios.. rite? Or i think.. i forgot he was sharp tooth(SAGE) and bloodvow.

    Allynna_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Just out of Curiosity, why would you use Quick Shot AFTER Demon spark? I mean it is a LITTLE better of a speed boost, but it just seems like Windsheilding, or Cycloning after Dspark (rather redundant and wasteful).

    Windshield with full dex genie.. pretty op. Lots of resistance! But.. pretty useless... i rather Immune pot and frenzy! Quick take aim anything my TAB chooses. Until everyone focus me and i die or i gtfo before 12 sec gone.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Face the fear. Face a war. Face the world.
    Leeching CQ salary since 09'
    Many names, Common Faces.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »
    This demon archer would do! \/

    So I'll be seeing you cast fire arrow while tanking my hit? Then I'll immune pot.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Ruvil - Sanctuary
    Ruvil - Sanctuary Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    the \/ is a rightside up, leftside right, upside down ^. kedge was refering to a theoretical archer that would also be doing the actions that were \/ that part of his post ^ ^.

    and my previous post about cake, i mean ZTP was saying that its more of a fun option then a superior option. I do not recommend it for any "srs" fights. and I was trying to say it is unrealistic/unuseful to assume you have apo while your opponent does not esp if we were focusing on 1st stun/opening, that was all supposed to be conveyed by the "~_~"... yea im lazy
  • Kerona - Sanctuary
    Kerona - Sanctuary Posts: 1,771 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    b:thanks CAKE
    I carry around ZTP actually.... Rarely find use for it but it's a nice trick. b:shutup
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    I like to ZTP + Bleed/Poison/Stormrage when I wanna troll people and have lulz.
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    because 2.5% higher base dps is equal to 10% or 30% individual procs.

    Special

    Every case is different, actually. So let's pick one:

    If we assume an archer with 500 dexterity and a crit rate of 40% before demon buffs and a target wearing light armor and not using damage reduction charms, and ignoring accuracy buff (which is not fair):

    Sage damage buff + sage fire buff gives a 4.8% dps advantage over demon base dps. (base attack: 100% base, 50% fire buff, 75% winged blessing, 333.3% dexterity + sage attack: 10% fire buff, 25% winged blessing): sage gets + 6.3% damage. But demon gets +2% crit on a base of 40% so that's a 1.4% dps increase for demon. 1.063/1.014 gives 1.048)

    Demon 10% crit chance gives a 7% burst dps advantage over demon base dps or a 2.2% advantage over sage dps.

    Demon fire buff gives a 12.5% burst dps advantage over demon base dps or a 7.4% burst dps advantage over sage dps.

    Depending on your base attack rate, demon 30% increased attack rate buff which is useful for 5.4 seconds can add two shots to the number of normal attacks you can make in 10 seconds. So that's an hypothetical burst 20%-ish dps increase over demon base dps when a full charm tick is the issue, or a 30%-ish dps increase over demon base dps for 5.4 seconds starting from the charm tick if quickshot ticked their charm, but normal attacks were not your highest dps (take aim cancelled also increases your normal attack dps), which knocks relative dps down somewhat. This is already getting tl;dr for some people so I will not attempt to find any precise numbers.

    But that's not all!

    Sage can get a first shot advantage, and averaged over 10 seconds that can be a 10% dps advantage. In a 3 shot war, first shot winds up being a much bigger advantage.

    Demon gets some kind of accuracy bonus and we like to ignore that because we do not understand how accuracy works but it's a real advantage that increases your dps on most shots.

    And so on...
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    LOL. In a real world 1v1... I wonder who'll stick around for that combo

    If we are talking about actual game play rather than hypothesis: hopefully no one would ever wait for someone to do that! But maybe someone performing some strange kind of testing would wait?
    Allynna_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Just out of Curiosity, why would you use Quick Shot AFTER Demon spark?

    I did that because I was oversimplifying. That's the thing to do here, yes?
  • KedgeSniper - Lost City
    KedgeSniper - Lost City Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    So I'll be seeing you cast fire arrow while tanking my hit? Then I'll immune pot.

    read the second quote. :< Baddie.. its an ARROW POINTING DOWN!
    Ruvil - Sanctuary wrote: »
    the \/ is a rightside up, leftside right, upside down ^. kedge was refering to a theoretical archer that would also be doing the actions that were \/ that part of his post ^ ^.

    i need help on my Theoretical theorys for college!
    Msg me with Msn. Kthxbai!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Face the fear. Face a war. Face the world.
    Leeching CQ salary since 09'
    Many names, Common Faces.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    If we are talking about actual game play rather than hypothesis: hopefully no one would ever wait for someone to do that! But maybe someone performing some strange kind of testing would wait?

    Let me get this straight. You are providing an theory that yourself don't even believe could work in actual game play... and have to ask the target to stand still? This might be a good time to actually log in and maybe play the game a bit before fantasizing about what you can do in it.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Let me get this straight. You are providing an theory that yourself don't even believe could work in actual game play... and have to ask the target to stand still? This might be a good time to actually log in and maybe play the game a bit before fantasizing about what you can do in it.

    No! You do not have it straight!

    Do you have any other questions?

    b:cute
  • Ruvil - Sanctuary
    Ruvil - Sanctuary Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    No! You do not have it straight!

    Do you have any other questions?

    b:cute

    (shes flirting w/ u btw, she wants you to ask her out, just b:kiss her and get married b:heartb:heartb:heart)
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    And heres a little Mood music to set the tone, go on dont mind me b:cute
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »
    And heres a little Mood music to set the tone, go on dont mind me b:cute

    Why was I expecting nyan cat or trolol or such? b:surrender
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    truekossy wrote: »
    Why was I expecting nyan cat or trolol or such? b:surrender

    Too much internetz D: it was a toss up between that song and Lou Rawls b:chuckle
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Too much internetz D: it was a toss up between that song and Lou Rawls b:chuckle

    I need you to save me from the internetz! D:
  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    truekossy wrote: »
    I need you to save me from the internetz! D:

    Have you tried Tee Vee?
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Have you tried Tee Vee?
    That's probably the same if not worse, b:shocked

    But anyway we are ruining the mood b:avoid
  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »
    That's probably the same if not worse, b:shocked

    But anyway we are ruining the mood b:avoid

    *Sets up mood lights* Better?
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    *adds in scented candles* b:heart
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    *gives Kiyoshi a box with a hole*
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Kerona - Sanctuary
    Kerona - Sanctuary Posts: 1,771 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    D: wear a rubber.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Paolo_Silver - Sanctuary
    Paolo_Silver - Sanctuary Posts: 77 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    No goalie b:chuckle

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