Sage Vs. Demon - READ FIRST!!!

13

Comments

  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    In 1v1, I think typically skills are not on cooldown, genies have full energy even if they have minimum magic, apothecary is not on cooldown, and generally everyone is a hard target.

    Wait wait wait... I thought your 1v1 is where one side has all defense skills/charms/apoc on cool down, both armor/mind broken, genie energy depleted, amped and cursed... while the other side has a horde of archer/sins/venos as support.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
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  • Kerona - Sanctuary
    Kerona - Sanctuary Posts: 1,771 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    while the other side has a horde of archer/sins/venos as support.

    *harem.
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  • KedgeSniper - Lost City
    KedgeSniper - Lost City Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »




    And all the sage has to do is click zooming thunder before stun... (or macro that starts with stun)

    Thats why.. people don't take you serious.

    Every archer worry on channel... they carry zooming thunder pills? <<

    And let say.. you spent your Apo Pill on that.. all i have to do is use any genie skill to get rid of your stun.. and you will be down without a 12 sec immune pot.. which i probably gonna use.

    and macro with stun ? << its easy to see an archer casting stun... macro wont do a difference.

    2 meters wont lock down an archer out of range. << Its better if you put mages/casters/melee in that situation.. Cause 2 meters in the game.. is nothing.


    P.s. i really wonder when you actually gonna stop posting as if you actually have experience.
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  • Zhadi - Archosaur
    Zhadi - Archosaur Posts: 695 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    To be fair there's never actually been a *GOOD* thread on the issue which actually pointed out the strengths of both cultivations.

    if you read through them carefully, you'll find everything.
    i remember making a huuuuuge post once on one thread about every single sage vs demon skills compared and wrote 1-2 paragraphs on EACH individual skill. I summarized everything at the end, adding some information based on my own gameplay experience since i've had 3 demon archers and 1 sage archer throughout the servers. Just like that, many other archers have taken the time to do the same. If we took some time to do that, the noobs should take the same time to look for them.
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Zhadi - Archosaur wrote: »
    if you read through them carefully, you'll find everything.
    i remember making a huuuuuge post once on one thread about every single sage vs demon skills compared and wrote 1-2 paragraphs on EACH individual skill. I summarized everything at the end, adding some information based on my own gameplay experience since i've had 3 demon archers and 1 sage archer throughout the servers. Just like that, many other archers have taken the time to do the same. If we took some time to do that, the noobs should take the same time to look for them.

    Sounds like you wasted a lot of effort to make a detailed guide in a post buried in a forgotten thread. Maybe next time make a new topic worthy of a sticky.
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  • Vindis - Dreamweaver
    Vindis - Dreamweaver Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I know that one nice tactic for Sage Archers is to stand just beyond the range of normal archers outisde the base wall in TW. They will shoot people through the wall... If you try shooting back, you can't, because you don't have the range. Helps to have a +2 weapon. This was done to me before I hit 89 in a TW by a Sage Archer... And it's how he pretty much wiped out our entire faction's archers in 3 seconds, Demon or otherwise.

    He was oneshotting me with auto attack, but he was luling and hitting me with EP sometimes before using take aim on me... Kinda sucks getting hit by a gloom crit on EP for 8X your max buffed HP. b:chuckle

    He's director of the faction I'm in now, so... I don't have to fear that anymore, just stare at his sexy White Horsie...

    Hitting people through the wall while in close proximity of the towers is pretty fun. Works better against casters than against other archers, but it is possible as a sage to basically immune yourself to all forms of damage, though demon boa may be able to hit you even if you are at your max range (I've sort of noticed BoA seems to hit farther than other skills; tested in hitting mobs through walls in 51/FC afew times). Hitting from max flight height and literally pinning people down is also good times, though I'm certain any archer can do that even without cultivation range.
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  • Ling__Tong - Sanctuary
    Ling__Tong - Sanctuary Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Well you should. I know of maybe two Sage sins and one of them is a massive cash shopper who went Sage because, as he put it "My cash > cultivation".

    Before being rude, remember he's not asking about assassins. He's asking about archers.

    Personally for me, it depends on what you want to do with your archer. I have a demon archer but my friend has a very successful 5 aps r8 sage archer. What it comes down to is if you're going to PvE vs PvP and if you prefer the style of sage skills versus demon skills. They didn't create two paths only so people could have demon. Sage has some very useful options, too. IMO demon archer is more PvE oriented or if you're PvP, you rely on fast shots that hit weaker. Sage shots hit harder because of masteries among other things, so they rely on slower more powerful hits. For the record - my sage archer friend hasn't put a cent into this game and is very successful :p
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Ling__Tong - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Before being rude, remember he's not asking about assassins. He's asking about archers.

    Yes, I know. That was one of the times when I mistakenly wrote "sin" instead of "archer".
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
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  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Hitting people through the wall while in close proximity of the towers is pretty fun. Works better against casters than against other archers, but it is possible as a sage to basically immune yourself to all forms of damage, though demon boa may be able to hit you even if you are at your max range (I've sort of noticed BoA seems to hit farther than other skills; tested in hitting mobs through walls in 51/FC afew times). Hitting from max flight height and literally pinning people down is also good times, though I'm certain any archer can do that even without cultivation range.

    True, especially since BoA has a range of effect, so if they BoA'ed someone between the Sage archer and the Demon, say, on the wall, would probably take both out.

    Though, towers doesn't really matter sometimes, they can go bye-bye pretty fast in some TW's.

    Hmm, Kero, ever had them use Aim Low on you? Or does reflect reflect that back on the caster? (Needs to level Psy more) Or Take Aim? A Crit on Take Aim is like... A double crit... I normally use Take Aim on Psys. But, as I mentioned before, I have yet to go up against anything more than like a level 86 Psy in TW...
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • Zhadi - Archosaur
    Zhadi - Archosaur Posts: 695 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Sounds like you wasted a lot of effort to make a detailed guide in a post buried in a forgotten thread. Maybe next time make a new topic worthy of a sticky.

    Then can you tell me why this or any other thread, which i'm sure there will be, is or are any different than the one i posted in? They will all be buried in piles of other threads that ask the exact same thing because people are too lazy and stupid to look for them.
  • Kerona - Sanctuary
    Kerona - Sanctuary Posts: 1,771 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Hmm, Kero, ever had them use Aim Low on you? Or does reflect reflect that back on the caster? (Needs to level Psy more) Or Take Aim? A Crit on Take Aim is like... A double crit... I normally use Take Aim on Psys. But, as I mentioned before, I have yet to go up against anything more than like a level 86 Psy in TW...

    Aim Low reflects.

    Lets look closer at your Take Aim claim...

    "Charge for up to 3.0 seconds to the attack enemy,
    inflicting base physical damage plus up to 400% of weapon damage.
    Sage version always gives 500% of weapon damage."
    Sage r9+12 Archer
    Demon r9+12 Archer

    Both: Wep Damage of 2457-3534 (Ignoring ATT lvls because it does not change for both)
    Sage Base: 16407-22151
    Demon Base: 15945-21527

    PVP Damage Range for Take Aim:
    Sage: 7173-9955 (ie 28692-39821/4)
    Demon: 6443-8915 (ie 25773-35663/4)

    A Sage Archer on a fully charged Take Aim in PvP will do on average 730-1040 more raw damage. When you take into account an average pdef reduction of target of around 60% this decreases to a difference of 438-624 more damage on the target. On a crit, the damage difference increases to 876-1248. This of course does not factor in that the demon is much more likely to crit on the target.

    On a person using a pdef charm this is diminshed by 50%. So ultimately, your fully charged r9+12 sage take aim will do 300 max more damage than a demon of the same gear would on a non-crit. Please take into consideration I'm generally bad at the maths but everything seems alright to me.

    Culti changing?


    (oh god i actually wrote something about archers on the archer forum. my troll days are numbered.)
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  • Ruvil - Sanctuary
    Ruvil - Sanctuary Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Archer vs Archer...

    Getting the 1st stun is nice but if you think that means you win then...

    a) your gear is much better
    b) both of your gears suck and you will both be 1 shots
    c) you suck

    additionally if you cant come up with any way to get around the crippling 2m extra range of sage (getting stunned 1st) and dealing with it... uhm... yea... b:lipcurl

    Just forget sage for now and pretend it was demonA vs demonB w/ 1 demonA having a slightly better connection/-chan (lol??). Would you say demonA should win a much large % of 1v1s? If you assumed all else is equal then yea demonA would win. Luckily there are these things known as experience/skill (though honestly matters less and less =.=) and unluckily gear, and lastly luck.

    I wrote a whole scenario thing but I refuse to play DND on forums. b:shutup
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    We all know the real reason all these people went Demon.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Kerona - Sanctuary
    Kerona - Sanctuary Posts: 1,771 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    I've fixed your picture, Qui.
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  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    If that's the real reason... why do people go sage?
  • Ruvil - Sanctuary
    Ruvil - Sanctuary Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    you guys are going to make me roll sage D:
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Ruvil - Sanctuary wrote: »
    you guys are going to make me roll sage D:

    Don't do it! Going sage decreases bust size! D:
  • Decus - Dreamweaver
    Decus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    truekossy wrote: »
    If that's the real reason... why do people go sage?

    Doesn't the celestial sage fairy also have massive boobies?

    I wouldn't know, I was too busy staring at my demon one b:surrender
    Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
    Current math challenge: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1029711&page=45
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    I know plenty of people who went sage because they thought the white fairy was prettier. b:embarrass

    84% of archers on Sanc are demon though and I'd imagine that is typical of most servers.
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  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I know plenty of people who went sage because they thought the white fairy was prettier. b:embarrass

    84% of archers on Sanc are demon though and I'd imagine that is typical of most servers.

    84%? Is that a factually factual fact, or something you pulled from a hat? b:chuckle Seeing how skill books are more or less impossible to get on Sanct for Sage Archer, I'd guess it's more like 95% of Archers are Demon on Sanct, if not more. Then again, if PWE actually would release statistics some time on the userbase, it would kinda help... But they will NEVER do that unless someone forces them to do it, and even then, they will release false data. b:sweat
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »
    Thats why.. people don't take you serious.

    Every archer worry on channel... they carry zooming thunder pills? <<

    It is an option, yes.
    KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »
    And let say.. you spent your Apo Pill on that.. all i have to do is use any genie skill to get rid of your stun.. and you will be down without a 12 sec immune pot.. which i probably gonna use.

    You exaggerate, but yes, zooming thunder would be particularly worthwhile when you have reason to believe that the opponent's apoth was on cooldown and that they should be low on both genie energy and chi. And, to get there in 1v1 you are going to have to push them.

    Still, stun cancel can be a good way to provoke some of them into taking countermeasures, and zooming thunder can be a way of getting several hits on someone.
    KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »
    and macro with stun ? << its easy to see an archer casting stun... macro wont do a difference.

    Ah, and here we have the ultimate proof that I am an idiot -- I am talking of an issue which you have not through yet!

    b:shocked
    KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »
    2 meters wont lock down an archer out of range. << Its better if you put mages/casters/melee in that situation.. Cause 2 meters in the game.. is nothing.

    A 2m range advantage will give you first hit (unless you have problems with lag) in "an approach from out of range" situations against people that do not have that 2m range advantage when they are using a skill which takes the same time to launch that your skill is using. This assumes, by the way, that you have a keyboard with a decent repeat rate.

    In some situations (*cough* tw *cough*) it can even be used to lock one demon archer down.
    KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »
    P.s. i really wonder when you actually gonna stop posting as if you actually have experience.

    I imagine that that will happen some time after some of you people here get over your reading comprehension problems. But I could be wrong. After all, I usually am wrong.

    Kerona - Sanctuary wrote: »
    A Sage Archer on a fully charged Take Aim in PvP will do on average 730-1040 more raw damage. When you take into account an average pdef reduction of target of around 60% this decreases to a difference of 438-624 more damage on the target. On a crit, the damage difference increases to 876-1248. This of course does not factor in that the demon is much more likely to crit on the target.

    On a person using a pdef charm this is diminshed by 50%. So ultimately, your fully charged r9+12 sage take aim will do 300 max more damage than a demon of the same gear would on a non-crit. Please take into consideration I'm generally bad at the maths but everything seems alright to me.

    Culti changing?

    (oh god i actually wrote something about archers on the archer forum. my troll days are numbered.)

    You can consider me to be successfully trolled!

    So, ok, you left out blazing arrow (both the base versions and demon's short term version). And take aim charged is mostly only useful against unsuspecting or helpless opponents.

    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I know plenty of people who went sage because they thought the white fairy was prettier. b:embarrass

    That was me!!

    Of course, that was when I thought I would quit playing before I got second cultivation. But I lost my white fairy. b:cry
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Kerona - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I've fixed your picture, Qui.

    b:dirty

    nicely done!

    @Decus
    No, there's like no cleavage, and no legs.

    @Ruvi
    That just means there'll be a fantasy Sage Ruvil posted b:dirty
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    84%? Is that a factually factual fact, or something you pulled from a hat? b:chuckle Seeing how skill books are more or less impossible to get on Sanct for Sage Archer, I'd guess it's more like 95% of Archers are Demon on Sanct, if not more. Then again, if PWE actually would release statistics some time on the userbase, it would kinda help... But they will NEVER do that unless someone forces them to do it, and even then, they will release false data. b:sweat

    84% is based off a decently large sample of archers in tw factions.
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  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    84% is based off a decently large sample of archers in tw factions.

    Huh... Which factions did you sample? Legendary and Kakumau? b:laugh There's... 4 Sage archers right there I think... Though mine isn't in Kaku anymore. b:avoid

    Judging by the rarity of the books, and the absolute opposite as it pertains to demon books, as well as having run a bunch of FCC's and never once seeing a Sage archer other than myself, it's pretty hard to consider the population being 84% Demon and 16% sage for the entire server.

    Also don't forget, there's a huge number of demon archers that aren't in TW factions... There's ~15 in NiteDream, and ND isn't a TW faction (though, that is where my Sage archer lives, so...)

    Anyway, it's just my little o.O; moment at that statistic...More like 84% +/- 15%... b:avoid
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • Kerona - Sanctuary
    Kerona - Sanctuary Posts: 1,771 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    You can consider me to be successfully trolled!

    So, ok, you left out blazing arrow (both the base versions and demon's short term version). And take aim charged is mostly only useful against unsuspecting or helpless opponents.

    D: Forgot about blazing arrow!
    "*Sage version increases Fire damage by 60% of weapon damage.

    *Adds 50% of weapon attack in Fire damage to regular arrows
    for 15 minutes.
    Demon version grants an additional 70% Fire damage for 20 seconds after casting."

    I'll have to test this later zzzzzzzzzzz
    Anyways the test was just to respond to Sarra's claim that a sage take aim crit is like a double crit xD


    And no, Asty is right Sarra, there are 84-95% demon archers on this server lol. There are what, 2 in LG and over 50 archers? One in Vindicate.... who I think converted? 12 in NiteDream out of how many archers >.>
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Ruvil - Sanctuary
    Ruvil - Sanctuary Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    ZTP is a fun apoth to use, helped me alot in vindi npc gear tourny (got 2nd u.u)

    if an archer tries to ztp me after i fort can just pot back vs them. That said Ive actually found it to be OKAY (and alot of fun) since most people either dont recognize -chan icon (lol =.=) or are too slow =/

    and yea I saw the part about opponent being out of chi/pot/already at a disadvantage ~_~

    anyways why do ppl always ignore my posts b:cry unless they want to post embarassing pics <_<

    First stunning arrow is cool does it = you win, I'd hope not. <_>
    That said is definitely a nice advantage. Enough to justify lower crit and less POTENTIAL burst damage? You decide b:thanks
  • Aesthor - Heavens Tear
    Aesthor - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,845 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    The burger thing for the 89 demon is the best. I am sad I lost it :<
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  • Vindis - Dreamweaver
    Vindis - Dreamweaver Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    84% is based off a decently large sample of archers in tw factions.

    This seems pretty right from my experiences. I think I've seen maybe...20 sage archers on my server? Most of them in my 90s-100s for FC/BH. Friends with 4 of them (Trading/selling books is always a fun option, its how I got Sage TB for 3.5mil). There could be more, but I honestly rarely squad other archers now (Static squads ftw).

    The vast majority is definitely of the 3.33+ Clawbuild variety and I've seen plenty of r9 demons in IT, 2 in BC that I know of and quite afew in Regen as well. There has been a rise in sages, but most seem of the naive non-cs'd variety (the unable to afford r8 variety that I see all too often now).

    Also, hai Decus :D
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    Retired from PWI.

    b:bye
  • KedgeSniper - Lost City
    KedgeSniper - Lost City Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Ruvil - Sanctuary wrote: »
    ZTP is a fun apoth to use, helped me alot in vindi npc gear tourny (got 2nd u.u)

    if an archer tries to ztp me after i fort can just pot back vs them. That said Ive actually found it to be OKAY (and alot of fun) since most people either dont recognize -chan icon (lol =.=) or are too slow =/

    and yea I saw the part about opponent being out of chi/pot/already at a disadvantage ~_~

    Npc gear.. npc gear has no 10k++hp <<

    Zoom pill is just far a useless pill on a 1v1 unless.. your maybe against a bm or barb (Lol at 1v1 barb with rank9). Yes its helpful to spam your combo as soon as possible.. But again..

    We were talking about ARCHER VS ARCHER

    And in my scenarios.. both archers have full genie/pots/etc...

    Its not a Fleuri scenario.. with an archer with 500 hp afk/lagging/without pots/without genie/without charms/withouth pdef/mdef charms/without a whole squad/ getting chase by a phoenix/bleeding/stun/seal/armor n magic pen AND FIGHTING A +5 99 Weapon SAGE ARCHER!.
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    Face the fear. Face a war. Face the world.
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  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Ruvil - Sanctuary wrote: »
    That said is definitely a nice advantage. Enough to justify lower crit and less POTENTIAL burst damage? You decide b:thanks

    This stuff gets complicated, but for a first approximation: burst dps boost from demon increased crit rate boost on stunning arrow makes a demon's burst dps roughly matches sage base dps.

    But demons can exceed sage dps by stacking to burst increases.

    Something similar happens with quickshot (but, again, when you try to nail down the details it gets complicated).

    Then again, demons can fire buff+triple spark+crit boost+quickshot and a sage cannot beat that for normal attack burst dps. Then again, sage should have run from that red cone (since obviously the demon was not killable while firebuffing). Then again, even two of those will give the demon a burst normal attack dps that beats sage normal attack dps. (And yes, I am oversimplifying treatment of triple spark and how demon triple spark and demon quickshot work and so on...)

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