Sage Vs. Demon - READ FIRST!!!

KedgeSniper - Lost City

Bobzl - Sanctuary wrote: »

Because its damn easy to do against any caster, where again the "dead zone" is only 2 meters (in reality, you only have about 10 seconds of stun time you can actually use) and the principle remains the same, even if archers have a few more anti-stuns.

I'm not saying it would be easy, but against a predictable archer (which so many are) it wouldn't be too hard either, but it would still take skill *gasps*.

caster range.. is way higher than 2 meters.. and it can be different in many skills.

Theres a couple of skills that have pretty short range.. for wizard. <<

Demon archer can easily "lock" a caster too with aim low.. even though any wizard with a brain will counter it with blink away/closer.

P.S. Dont post.. saying You will Seal + imbolize + stun + this and that n more..

Bobzl - Sanctuary

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

caster range.. is way higher than 2 meters.. and it can be different in many skills.

Theres a couple of skills that have pretty short range.. for wizard. <<

Demon archer can easily "lock" a caster too with aim low.. even though any wizard with a brain will counter it with blink away/closer.

P.S. Dont post.. saying You will Seal + imbolize + stun + this and that n more..

Well only four offence skills are not 30 meters at level 11 for a wizard, so that is not really an issue.
But yes, every single caster has some sort of defense to it, wizards got shrink, clerics have purify, venomancers have sage summer sprint, psychics got sage bubble, mystic have a pet, and just spam heal themselves or can bramble tornado you back, archers on the other hand have nothing that only they can do once the immobilize hits.
But my point is, it is possible to get a wizard immobilized beyond their max range, and since the distance is the same its possible on a demon archer from a sage archer.

Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary

Bobzl - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well only four offence skills are not 30 meters at level 11 for a wizard, so that is not really an issue.
But yes, every single caster has some sort of defense to it, wizards got shrink, clerics have purify, venomancers have sage summer sprint, psychics got sage bubble, mystic have a pet, and just spam heal themselves or can bramble tornado you back, archers on the other hand have nothing that only they can do once the stun hits.
But my point is, it is possible to get a wizard immobilized beyond their max range, and since the distance is the same its possible on a demon archer from a sage archer.

Pretty sure 3 spark works just fine, and unless awaken has magicly been removed from game archers can pop it once for free in any given 1v1 (Ocean orbs are 35 mill so is awaken, pretty sure 3.99 sparks instantly > one more refine so the OMGz nobody haz its line is ****)

Also soulclense orbs/any imune apoc ever/faith/or just hit any of the archer imune skills as they run in makeing any stuns worthless, and 15 seconds > 2 meters.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Bobzl - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well only four offence skills are not 30 meters at level 11 for a wizard, so that is not really an issue.
But yes, every single caster has some sort of defense to it, wizards got shrink, clerics have purify, venomancers have sage summer sprint, psychics got sage bubble, mystic have a pet, and just spam heal themselves or can bramble tornado you back, archers on the other hand have nothing that only they can do once the immobilize hits.
But my point is, it is possible to get a wizard immobilized beyond their max range, and since the distance is the same its possible on a demon archer from a sage archer.

Sage or Demon archer aside, Mystics are the most easily rolled character from the perspective of archer in TW. At 86, I was very easily killing Mystics in 1v1 or 1v2 or 1v4 combat. If you know the Devil summon is going to get to you and skullslap, you simply stun it, then you kill the mystic with minimum use of arrows. Hell, take aim will oneshot some of them, getting a Gloom proc and crit on Take Aim will be a for sure oneshot on most. So, I disagree with you for Mystics... In 1v1 PVP or duels, only if the summon can stun you do they even have a fighting chance.

This is from my own experience, and not from looking at stats and spending endless hours pondering how useless Mystic is in TW.

My archer isn't doing TW anymore, not in a TW faction, so... Not going up against any decent geared Mystics any time soon. My sin can win against a Mystic in a duel half the time just by using Soulsmasher.

Bobzl - Sanctuary

Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »

Pretty sure 3 spark works just fine, and unless awaken has magicly been removed from game archers can pop it once for free in any given 1v1 (Ocean orbs are 35 mill so is awaken, pretty sure 3.99 sparks instantly > one more refine so the OMGz nobody haz its line is ****)

Also soulclense orbs/any imune apoc ever/faith/or just hit any of the archer imune skills as they run in makeing any stuns worthless, and 15 seconds > 2 meters.

"archers have nothing that only they can use" is what I said, but well if you really want to waste 3 sparks that the sage archer should just kite away, go ahead. But, like I had said previously, anything the demon archer uses to avoid getting stunned, the sage archer can also use to kite the demon archer more. And once the demon archer exhausts their resources, the sage archer will be able to stun the demon one for a while.

EDIT: @ Sarra: yeah, at low level mystics would be pretty easy, but with the right gear and skill they can be a force to be reckoned with, and since they have verdant shell which is similar to wizards stone barrier, they can get a massive defense boost at endgame. They also have some pretty strong and interesting skills to use as well.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Ok here's my question, why do so many of you sage archers think that your class is supposed to be the one-shot-nuke-all?

Well ok, not SO MANY but more than is healthy for a group of high level archers.

Bobzl - Sanctuary

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

Ok here's my question, why do so many of you sage archers think that your class is supposed to be the one-shot-nuke-all?

Well ok, not SO MANY but more than is healthy for a group of high level archers.

Lol, I am demon, like I said at the beginning, I believe that a sage archer's only strong point is against other archers and since there is more then just one class, the obvious choice to me was demon. I am simply defending my opinion at the moment.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Bobzl - Sanctuary wrote: »

Lol, I am demon, like I said at the beginning, I believe that a sage archer's only strong point is against other archers and since there is more then just one class, the obvious choice to me was demon. I am simply defending my opinion at the moment.

Wasn't referring to you, it's just that every one of these threads that comes up I see the same argument from sage archers. To me it seems many of their arguments have stood on the simple basis that they heavily outgear anyone they go up against, or else they truly believe their class is supposed be the one shot nuker, which is sad if they do. I just want to know why??

Bobzl - Sanctuary

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

Wasn't referring to you, it's just that every one of these threads that comes up I see the same argument from sage archers. To me it seems many of their arguments have stood on the simple basis that they heavily outgear anyone they go up against, or else they truly believe their class is supposed be the one shot nuker, which is sad if they do. I just want to know why??

I don't know, maybe that extra 4% base damage goes to their head O.o

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

^Quoted for truth. In fact, Olbaze would it be cool if I sigged that?

sage BP ftw btw.

You go do that if you want to.

sage sin here btw.

99% of the archers are also one shot... according to your logic... you would want to be in that 99% too.

Actually no. I wasn't using ad populum if that's what you were thinking. I was simply implying that there might be some reason for that. Other than general human stupidity, peer pressure and conforming.

Then again maybe I should add a "Note: Not using a logical fallacy in the aforementioned logic" to ambiguous things like that?

And last but not the least, shame on you for being an Archer and extrapolating from a single data point to a completely unrelated point.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Hahaha cant wait to see that in his sig, it'll be like he's wearing an "I'm with stupid" shirt that has the arrow pointing up.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

Hahaha cant wait to see that in his sig, it'll be like he's wearing an "I'm with stupid" shirt that has the arrow pointing up.

There is a certain irony in being an archer and having a sig about the uselessness of Archers.

And generally speaking, I don't really care with whom the world associates their memories of me. Because really, it's awesome enough just to be there in the first place. 500 years from now, Archers all over the world will think of me as some kind of new age Socrates, I bet.

Now I just want to see a sin with a sig complaining about the OPness of stealth, shadow escape, aps, their control skills, inner harmony, rank9 and whatever else anyone can come up with that is wrong with sins.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

There is a certain irony in being an archer and having a sig about the uselessness of Archers.

And generally speaking, I don't really care with whom the world associates their memories of me. Because really, it's awesome enough just to be there in the first place. 500 years from now, Archers all over the world will think of me as some kind of new age Socrates, I bet.

Now I just want to see a sin with a sig complaining about the OPness of stealth, shadow escape, aps, their control skills, inner harmony, rank9 and whatever else anyone can come up with that is wrong with sins.

I don't know, generally when people say really stupid **** that gets remembered because of how stupid it was, they don't automatically get revered as a "socrates" just for the simple fact that what they said was remembered(for being stupid).Not a specific attack, ijs tho.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't know, generally when people say really stupid **** that gets remembered because of how stupid it was, they don't automatically get revered as a "socrates" just for the simple fact that what they said was remembered(for being stupid).Not a specific attack, ijs tho.

Oh. I trust you know that I have a 92 Archer that I used to play.

However, I do not trust that you have the ability to realize that nowhere did I say that Archers are a useless, redundant class. Of course, playing an Archer, claws are a perfectly valid option with coping or at least trying to cope with the APS mania that the general public is going through. However, the validity of that choice does not mean that a clawarcher is a good way to use claws, nor that it's a good 5 aps character.

Also, I trust that you do not know that the OP previously made a topic about clawsins on the Assassin forum, saying that he plans to get 5 aps with Deicide and then farm Nirvana for gear. Since I assume you do not know about this, I also assume that you do not know about the fact that I and others told him that clawsins are useless.

Now, if you put that context into my stating that clawarchers and clawsins are just as unwanted, I think you'll see my statement in a new light.

I trust that.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Oh. I trust you know that I have a 92 Archer that I used to play.

However, I do not trust that you have the ability to realize that nowhere did I say that Archers are a useless, redundant class. Of course, playing an Archer, claws are a perfectly valid option with coping or at least trying to cope with the APS mania that the general public is going through. However, the validity of that choice does not mean that a clawarcher is a good way to use claws, nor that it's a good 5 aps character.

Also, I trust that you do not know that the OP previously made a topic about clawsins on the Assassin forum, saying that he plans to get 5 aps with Deicide and then farm Nirvana for gear. Since I assume you do not know about this, I also assume that you do not know about the fact that I and others told him that clawsins are useless.

Now, if you put that context into my stating that clawarchers and clawsins are just as unwanted, I think you'll see my statement in a new light.

I trust that.

I trust you can read well enough to notice where I said it wasnt a specific attack, and I trust you can think well enough to deduce that it was a reply the "I dont care with whom the world associates memories of me/awesome enough to be there 500 years from now/new age socrates" comment.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

I trust you can read well enough to notice where I said it wasnt a specific attack, and I trust you can think well enough to deduce that it was a reply the "I dont care with whom the world associates memories of me/awesome enough to be there 500 years from now/new age socrates" comment.

But of course.

I suppose I should've included my trademark smiley, Mr. Flowery Bear, as seen here: b:cute

You see, I sometimes use Mr. Flowery Bear as a kind of signal that I'm not being serious. Often, Mr. Flowery Bear even indicates that my true opinion might be a complete opposite of what I wrote.

Also, I do not disrespect Socrates in any way. In fact, it'd be an honor to be compared to him, in every other respect except the way he died.

And I'm not too sure, but I somehow doubt that there will be Archers or PWI 500 years from now.b:cute

Do note that Mr. Flowery Bear up there only applies to the specified paragraph. If it was at the end of the post, it'd apply to the whole post.

On a more serious note: With the advent of the internet and the internet's liking of people showing how stupid they are, I'm pretty sure that it is perfectly possible to be remembered, at least for some time, for a rather stupid statement. And of course, by extension, if I managed to make a statement that is stupid enough to be remembered for 500 years, I'd be pretty awesome. Awesome and stupid. Or silly, or trolly. Or something. But awesome does not change.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

But of course.

I suppose I should've included my trademark smiley, Mr. Flowery Bear, as seen here: b:cute

You see, I sometimes use Mr. Flowery Bear as a kind of signal that I'm not being serious. Often, Mr. Flowery Bear even indicates that my true opinion might be a complete opposite of what I wrote.

Also, I do not disrespect Socrates in any way. In fact, it'd be an honor to be compared to him, in every other respect except the way he died.

And I'm not too sure, but I somehow doubt that there will be Archers or PWI 500 years from now.b:cute

Do note that Mr. Flowery Bear up there only applies to the specified paragraph. If it was at the end of the post, it'd apply to the whole post.

On a more serious note: With the advent of the internet and the internet's liking of people showing how stupid they are, I'm pretty sure that it is perfectly possible to be remembered, at least for some time, for a rather stupid statement. And of course, by extension, if I managed to make a statement that is stupid enough to be remembered for 500 years, I'd be pretty awesome. Awesome and stupid. Or silly, or trolly. Or something. But awesome does not change.

You are taking my comment far too personally.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

I don't think sage archers are so much better against certain classes as they synergize abit better with wizards. Frost + Undine is pretty nice. Longer stun also helps your squad mates wreak havoc.

As an archer I don't really see the drastic difference in fighting ability between a demon and a sage. Both use the same skills. Sure, they have different affects at that point, but the difference is still not as vast as say an archer and any other class. Culti isn't that big of a deal, it just sort of adds flavor to your skillset. I personally like having a long stun and my watery frost arrow. Im certain I would do equally well as a demon archer since I seem to use STA and stun quite frequently (as well as QS but thats for chi gain in pve mostly lol).

People act like the cultivations suddenly change archer game mechanics. They don't really, like they affect them somewhat, but they do not drastically change them.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

I know that one nice tactic for Sage Archers is to stand just beyond the range of normal archers outisde the base wall in TW. They will shoot people through the wall... If you try shooting back, you can't, because you don't have the range. Helps to have a +2 weapon. This was done to me before I hit 89 in a TW by a Sage Archer... And it's how he pretty much wiped out our entire faction's archers in 3 seconds, Demon or otherwise.

He was oneshotting me with auto attack, but he was luling and hitting me with EP sometimes before using take aim on me... Kinda sucks getting hit by a gloom crit on EP for 8X your max buffed HP. b:chuckle

He's director of the faction I'm in now, so... I don't have to fear that anymore, just stare at his sexy White Horsie...

truekossy

.... How's he using EP on you if he's outside your range? EP has a 20m range, so he'd have to be within your attack range to use it...

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

i didnt read first, cause OP isnt the boss of me

Zhadi - Archosaur

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i didnt read first, cause OP isnt the boss of me

you're hardcore.

Lallie - Heavens Tear

They should immediately delete all topics of this subject from now on.

There's only been 494822 of them since 2008 to choose from.

Zhadi - Archosaur

Lallie - Heavens Tear wrote: »

They should immediately delete all topics of this subject from now on.

There's only been 494822 of them since 2008 to choose from.

how dare you troll this poor guy.
he obviously didn't find the content he needed in the 494,821 previous threads.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

To be fair there's never actually been a *GOOD* thread on the issue which actually pointed out the strengths of both cultivations.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

Archer forums look more alive than sin forums

b:surrender

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

No in my experiences, you can easily stun someone outside of their cast range when they are not approaching you.

I do not know if you are talking about 1v1 or about TW.

In 1v1, I think typically skills are not on cooldown, genies have full energy even if they have minimum magic, apothecary is not on cooldown, and generally everyone is a hard target. So, in a 1v1 battle, you should assume an archer that wants to be stun immune for their highest priority can be stun immune constantly for 58 seconds and, in addition, can break stun and become stun immune again. And hypothetically an archer can break stun several times, using their genie, if they are being careful with how they manage their genie energy. And if your battle has lots of kiting it's going to take you significantly longer than a minute to exhaust your opponents stun immunity.

Of course, being stun immune for that long will eat into your chi, but in 1v1 an even a demon archer should be assumed to have a total of 8 sparks available to them, before using apoth or genie skills for chi generation.

So... yes, in a 1v1 battle, you would have a long battle before this stun from out of range trick has any meaning against a prepared archer.

But it's a nice trick in TW. In TW, when you are dealing with archer that is aware of you, this tactic has a decent chance of working.

Also, for example, if you think to target an archer that is aware of you with a thunderous blast or aim low (or, worse, barrage), you have a good chance of getting hit by stunning arrow. (And this situation is usually rare enough that stunning arrow will be on cooldown -- the exception being when you are facing a squad of archers.)

Olbaze - Sanctuary

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

You are taking my comment far too personally.

That or I was far too bored at a far too random time.

Or the internet is just serious business.

Make a choice.

Kerona - Sanctuary

Hi, I'm an arcane. b:cute
I TW on the thing that r9 archer's feed off of. I have a shorter range than wizzies, and I can only reflect stunshot if my retal is up which is hard to gauge due to being constantly ganked. I walk around with -def levels so your att level is at peak effectiveness.

Here's what, as a target of these Sage and Demon archers, I notice:

A Sage Archer ticks my pdef charm from his max range, I charm again and psy will/sutra/absolute domain/dewstar/ig while walking away, and he fails to kill me 80% of the time.

A Demon Archer ticks my pdef charm and kills me with CRITDEMONQUCKSHOTCRITDIDIMENTIONCRITS.
Demon Archers kill me 95% of the time with spike damage. b:cry

This may be due to the skill of said Sage and Demon Archers, but every Demon Archer with a face to roll on their keyboard can pull this off. High crits are the driving force of an Archer's faceroll-ability. When a Demon does not crit, his damage is easily handled. When a Sage does not crit, the story is the same. Range doesn't mean a thing when the target you hit is going to immune by the second or third hit and your first hit ticks a pdef charm. The longer it takes you to one shot that person, the more chance they have of a) Getting into your range, or b) holy pathing away.

When a Sage Archer hits from max range (utilizing their range) they also risk that person just walking away from them and dragging them forward. Usually Demon Archers don't seem to note/care about their max range as long as they are in range and this is less likely to happen for them.

Just adding more fuel to the fire.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

That or I was far too bored at a far too random time.

Or the internet is just serious business.

Make a choice.

I choose errthang, you can take something personally without giving an overly serious response. It isn't compulsory to respond with rage and srs ****.