Sage Vs. Demon - READ FIRST!!!

SinFulGodX - Sanctuary

Before you spam/flame/troll please read the thread.

I realize there is a stickied guide, but it was posted a while ago and im not sure if it is all too accurate. Also, i do not want to read 50+ pages to see how opinion of sage/demon has changed

I did not use search because i could get info from a while ago, so i want the current opinion. Because as a sin i know that in the past it was Demon and never sage, but now sage is more accepted.


So, i would like all of your opinions on this. Which culti path would you recomend. What are benefits and such of going these paths. I would like a nice discussion on the topic please b:pleased

KageYingZi - Heavens Tear

If you want more recent results,try this:
1.Go to Search
2.Look under "Search Options"
3.Look for the sub-header "Find Posts From"
4.Pick how long ago you want.
5.Press search.

Zhadi - Archosaur

yet another person who believes to be God's gift to this earth and thus they should be treated differently than every other person.

SinFulGodX - Sanctuary

KageYingZi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If you want more recent results,try this:
1.Go to Search
2.Look under "Search Options"
3.Look for the sub-header "Find Posts From"
4.Pick how long ago you want.
5.Press search.

Awesome... last few threads i checked had almost no useful information.

Idk if this was truthful or troll, but i did gain some information

Zhadi - Archosaur wrote: »

yet another person who believes to be God's gift to this earth and thus they should be treated differently than every other person.

Hmm. So, what is wrong with me asking for advice on being a sage or demon build archer?

I have read other threads, yet i would like more discusion and gain more insights on the practicality of going each path.

Troll somewhere else nub





I would appreciate some replies by sage/demon archers about why they chose the path and act.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

99% of Archers are Demon.

I wonder if that means 99% of people who play Archers are wrong?

Lemme think about that for a moment.

Oh and btw, you don't get to say that a guide is "old" when you're the one asking for help.

Also, calling people nubs and telling them to go "troll" somewhere else is definitely not a good way to get good advice. Because really, the topic has been chewed to hell already. It's about as annoying as a person coming to the sin forums to ask about how to get 5 aps.

SinFulGodX - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

99% of Archers are Demon.

I wonder if that means 99% of people who play Archers are wrong?

Lemme think about that for a moment.

Oh and btw, you don't get to say that a guide is "old" when you're the one asking for help.

Also, calling people nubs and telling them to go "troll" somewhere else is definitely not a good way to get good advice. Because really, the topic has been chewed to hell already. It's about as annoying as a person coming to the sin forums to ask about how to get 5 aps.

I didn't know 99% of archers are demon.

I can call a thread form 2 years ago old because the information in it could have changed as the game has surely changed.

Zhadi's post was definitely a troll. I can understand the annoyance of seeing this thread so often. But, the threads that came up when i searched weren't really that helpful. I haven't payed much attention to anything about archers until very recently. I decided i like TW, and decided to make an archer because i hear they are good and in most mmo's i like ranged non-magic toons and rouges/sins. So there.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

SinFulGodX - Sanctuary wrote: »

I didn't know 99% of archers are demon.

Well you should. I know of maybe two Sage sins and one of them is a massive cash shopper who went Sage because, as he put it "My cash > cultivation".

I can call a thread form 2 years ago old because the information in it could have changed as the game has surely changed.

Look at the game. What has changed in 2 years? We've had the packs for about two years, sins for almost as long. Not much has changed. Well, except for the fact that Archers were dropped from being best DD to being a pretty sucky PvE class. No one wants a 5 aps clawarcher unless they're geared to their teeth with awesome. At least not if they have an option for a 5 aps bm or sin.

Zhadi's post was definitely a troll. I can understand the annoyance of seeing this thread so often. But, the threads that came up when i searched weren't really that helpful. I haven't payed much attention to anything about archers until very recently. I decided i like TW, and decided to make an archer because i hear they are good and in most mmo's i like ranged non-magic toons and rouges/sins. So there.

No, I don't think his post was a troll. If anything, if you think it's a troll then you're seriously having issues. You know, it's called "being mildly annoyed at annoying repetition" I personally found it funny, because your username as "God" in it. I was going to reply with just a "Well, dude's got "God" in his name, what were you expecting?"

Oh and just for the record, clawarchers are not any more wanted than clawsins. You want claws, you make a bm.

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear

Go Demon


Thats the answer u want ???? Cause really there are countless threads about it and most fo them are quite recent ones

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Summarizing the argument is really pretty easy:

The vast majority of archers go demon. Demon has more dps. Demon has 2% more crit, more when STA/Stun proc is active. Demon has more attack rate/burst damage if QS/Demon spark procs are active. Demon LS never missing is also nice. Demon has more potential control skills.

Sage has a longer stun, more chi gain options, slightly higher dph, slightly larger range, and a water frost arrow.
We also have manaburn rofl.


Since this should answer most of your questions I'll link it:

http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skillea.php

Examine the benefits of each cultivation in the above link to help make your choice easier. Specifically, look at skills you use frequently.

Regardless of either cultivation, Archers still hit hard. If you are cash limited I do recommend demon since the aps from demon spark alone will outweigh sage if you lack decent gear. I have been seeing quite afew sage archers, but demon really does have more dps and if dps is what you are interested in then by all means go for it. In the end, make your own judgment.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Summarizing the argument is really pretty easy:

The vast majority of archers go demon. Demon has more dps. Demon has 2% more crit, more if STA/Stun proc. Demon has more aps if QS procs. Demon LS never missing is also nice. Demon has more potential control skills.

Sage has a longer stun, more chi gain options, slightly higher dph, slightly larger range, and a water frost arrow.
We also have manaburn rofl.


Since this should answer most of your questions I'll link it:

http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skillea.php

Examine the benefits of each cultivation in the above link to help make your choice easier. Specifically, look at skills you use frequently.

Regardless of either cultivation, Archers still hit hard. If you are cash limited I do recommend demon since the aps from demon spark alone will outweigh sage if you lack decent gear. I have been seeing quite afew sage archers, but demon really does have more dps and if dps is what you are interested in then by all means go for it. In the end, make your own judgment.

Stun/STA is 100% proc, so it will always give you the extra crit. The effect of QS I wouldn't say is best summed up by "more aps", and the benefit of going demon I wouldn't say is best summed up by "more dps".
Demon is more catered to higher base crit and more situational, opportunistic advantages such as temporary increases in crit and attack rate, Sage is more about higher passive with higher base, longer range oh yes and too many chi skills.

Although what Olbaze stated earlier about a sage sin CSer who went sage because Cash>culti also seems to apply for archers. Most important than any culti decision you can make as an archer is "can or can I not afford Rank 9"

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

I switched my archer out from demon to sage for my own personal reasons. I miss a few demon skills, however, still 5 aps and enjoy sage quite a bit. Others, maybe not so much. Really? You don't need others to tell you the benefits when one trip to ecatomb will give you all the comparisons you need.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

Stun/STA is 100% proc, so it will always give you the extra crit. The effect of QS I wouldn't say is best summed up by "more aps", and the benefit of going demon I wouldn't say is best summed up by "more dps".
Demon is more catered to higher base crit and more situational, opportunistic advantages such as temporary increases in crit and attack rate, Sage is more about higher passive with higher base, longer range oh yes and too many chi skills.

@_blood_rain: You seem to find fault with how I describe the benefits of demon. I have gone back and revised some wording in my original post. Feel free to see if that particular word choice is more satisfying.

And correct me if I am wrong, but a faster attack rate and 2~17% more crit rate positively affects ones total dps. Therefore, 'more dps' is a pretty basic way of saying a demon archer will out dd a sage everytime.

Sage's advantages tend to be more situational in my experiences, at least from my sage perspective, since a higher dps is useful in nearly all scenarios whereas (example) a longer TS is really only good if a DDing cleric is present.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Oh and just for the record, clawarchers are not any more wanted than clawsins. You want claws, you make a bm.

^Quoted for truth. In fact, Olbaze would it be cool if I sigged that?

sage BP ftw btw.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@_blood_rain: You seem to find fault with how I describe the benefits of demon. I have gone back and revised some wording in my original post. Feel free to see if that particular word choice is more satisfying.

And correct me if I am wrong, but a faster attack rate and 2~17% more crit rate positively affects ones total dps. Therefore, 'more dps' is a pretty basic way of saying a demon archer will out dd a sage everytime.

Sage's advantages tend to be more situational in my experiences, at least from my sage perspective, since a higher dps is useful in nearly all scenarios whereas (example) a longer TS is really only good if a DDing cleric is present.
sage BP ftw btw.

I was simply clarifying a few things that I felt could use it. But I don't care to any more than that, if he really wants the specifics there is ecatomb.

And like I said, it's more important the Nebulous Shooter than than the red/white fairy.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

99% of Archers are Demon.

I wonder if that means 99% of people who play Archers are wrong?

99% of the archers are also one shot... according to your logic... you would want to be in that 99% too.

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

And correct me if I am wrong, but a faster attack rate and 2~17% more crit rate positively affects ones total dps.

Why does every demon archer assume demon comes with an automatic faster hit rate and higher crit rate.

Anfisa - Lost City

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Why does every demon archer assume demon comes with an automatic faster hit rate and higher crit rate.

Vindi is a sage archer

Yogaxpto - Dreamweaver

Honestly, i would prefer being sage (range,a little bit more chi, and +30% damage are quite appealing), but once i saw demon BOA, i totally made up my mind(plus the fact that i can get a skill to get me chi at lvl 100).

My dream is to become the best archer available for delta. So i choose demon.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Anfisa - Lost City wrote: »

Vindi is a sage archer

Sage and demon are both equally useless without the gears to back them up.

Yogaxpto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Honestly, i would prefer being sage (range,a little bit more chi, and +30% damage are quite appealing), but once i saw demon BOA, i totally made up my mind(plus the fact that i can get a skill to get me chi at lvl 100).

My dream is to become the best archer available for delta. So i choose demon.

Yes... the skill with 50 million coin price tag and 15 minute cool down. Might want to stick with genie skills.

DeathVark - Raging Tide

Yogaxpto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Honestly, i would prefer being sage (range,a little bit more chi, and +30% damage are quite appealing), but once i saw demon BOA, i totally made up my mind(plus the fact that i can get a skill to get me chi at lvl 100).

My dream is to become the best archer available for delta. So i choose demon.

Delta sucks. Plus they prefer seekers in Delta now, or at least 1 AOE DD is seeker.
However by endgame u realize that endgame is TW, or mass PK.
Demon stun/demonSTA/demon quickshot/demon barrage rule there, so wise decision anyway b:chuckle

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

DeathVark - Raging Tide wrote: »

Delta sucks. Plus they prefer seekers in Delta now, or at least 1 AOE DD is seeker.
However by endgame u realize that endgame is TW, or mass PK.
Demon stun/demonSTA/demon quickshot/demon barrage rule there, so wise decision anyway b:chuckle

I despise that seeker aoe for making barrage look bad -.-

Bobzl - Sanctuary

Really, the only thing sage archers are better at killing then demon archers are other archers...

(in 1v1 situations)

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Bobzl - Sanctuary wrote: »

Really, the only thing sage archers are better at killing then demon archers are other archers...

(in 1v1 situations)

Hmm... Not really sure I agree with this.

A well geared Sage archer in TW will own equally geared archers in numbers... You're gonna be a oneshot for a Sage Archer, where you might be a charm tick and 2 shot for a Demon.

But... Then, there are so few Sage archers, nobody really sees this happening. b:avoid

If you're gonna spend the coins to get 5.0 and get all of your skills and R9, does it really matter in the end?

Also...

99% of sins are Demon. My Sin is Sage at level 92, and I can already solo FCC (Pole and Nob as well), where a Demon Sin can't even tank with BB on some of the bosses, with similar/better gear.

There's more to life than just APS...

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

How can demon archers possibly stand up to the might that is Sage Vicious Arrow? b:chuckle

Again archer vs archer is a really lame battle due to the randomness of miss, crit, and purge. Luck is always the number one factor if archers are equally geared but demon archers still have the advantage if they have quickshot.

Sage archer is somewhat better for killing HA targets due to faster metal skills and water frost arrow.

Bobzl - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

How can demon archers possibly stand up to the might that is Sage Vicious Arrow? b:chuckle

Again archer vs archer is a really lame battle due to the randomness of miss, crit, and purge. Luck is always the number one factor if archers are equally geared but demon archers still have the advantage if they have quickshot.

Sage archer is somewhat better for killing HA targets due to faster metal skills and water frost arrow.

Yes, there is a large amount of luck in archer vs. archer, but that extra two meter range can be very easy to trap someone in for 12 seconds and with equal gear, 12 seconds is a long time to kill someone. Also, a sage archer has every anti-stun a demon archer has, but will always be in range to stun the demon archer first so the sage archer can trap someone at max range multiple time if it needs to.

But again, the demon archer could do more damage, but it is simply hard for them to get into range. So in any other match-up a demon archer is superior, since it obviously has higher damage.

KedgeSniper - Lost City

Bobzl - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yes, there is a large amount of luck in archer vs. archer, but that extra two meter range can be very easy to trap someone in for 12 seconds and with equal gear, 12 seconds is a long time to kill someone. Also, a sage archer has every anti-stun a demon archer has, but will always be in range to stun the demon archer first so the sage archer can trap someone at max range multiple time if it needs to.

But again, the demon archer could do more damage, but it is simply hard for them to get into range. So in any other match-up a demon archer is superior, since it obviously has higher damage.

If both archers flying towards each other.. all you gotta do is click fortify while sage casting it.. Its not so hard to avoid a stun.. specially on 1v1.

Demon skills are pretty sweet. I like most of the tweaks that demon has while sage just increase of % damage or other.. don't seem as appealing to me.

Rank9 with any culti.. cant go wrong but i still think QS on any same/lower gear people will get more kills than any other sage skill available. ;x

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Bobzl - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yes, there is a large amount of luck in archer vs. archer, but that extra two meter range can be very easy to trap someone in for 12 seconds and with equal gear, 12 seconds is a long time to kill someone. Also, a sage archer has every anti-stun a demon archer has, but will always be in range to stun the demon archer first so the sage archer can trap someone at max range multiple time if it needs to.

But again, the demon archer could do more damage, but it is simply hard for them to get into range. So in any other match-up a demon archer is superior, since it obviously has higher damage.

Where do you get this from? I know you're demon so it's not something you've personally done. Can you honestly say a sage archer successfully stun locked you in that tiny 2meter dead zone? Has that even happened once? I'm calling BS, that never happens.

It is just not feasible due to channeling of control skills and the tiniest bit of server lag. That mythical 12 second sage stun lock of yours only works on pen and paper but not with a mouse and keyboard.

Devoted - Lost City

SinFulGodX - Sanctuary wrote: »

Before you spam/flame/troll please read the thread.

I realize there is a stickied guide, but it was posted a while ago and im not sure if it is all too accurate. Also, i do not want to read 50+ pages to see how opinion of sage/demon has changed

Before you post/spam/not use search please at least try to read the first paragraph of said stickied thread. There you will find almost the EXACT response to your 'reason' as to why you are not reading the thread.

I don't care that you are making a new thread, everyone does it, I just find it funny you are asking people to read your post before replying yet you didn't even bother to read the mentioned thread before creating a new one.

You know what is more annoying than reading through 50+ pages of cultivation discussion? Trying to read through 60 different threads with 2 pages of cultivation discussion with no more depth than a simple derp and occasional herp. At least in the stickied thread discussions can go beyond the regurgitation of archer knowledge before a new one is created and everyone flocks to the next one to rehash some more basic information.

Like, at least provide some original content if you are going to make an entirely new topic on the most discussed item in this forum.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Yogaxpto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Honestly, i would prefer being sage (range,a little bit more chi, and +30% damage are quite appealing), but once i saw demon BOA, i totally made up my mind(plus the fact that i can get a skill to get me chi at lvl 100).

My dream is to become the best archer available for delta. So i choose demon.

Sage does not have +30% total damage, if you include demon crit rate but ignore demon accuracy (since accuracy is target dependent and often a non-issue), sage's net dps benefit is about 6.5% when you consider both cultivation's passive and buff skills.

And demon has a variety of mechanisms to increase their dps, but they take time to prepare, which means that most of them do not increase total dps -- but they do increase burst dps, and when you combine two of them their dps will exceed a sage's. Also, demon spark will beat a sage spark, for ranged combat dps. Demon barrage will also beat a sage for long term dps. (But finding a target that can survive barrage for very long can sometimes be challenging.)

But you are right that a demon can finish the monsters faster than sage in delta: demons get a 20% rate of fire increase which trumps sage's 6.5% dps advantage on base attack (the damage add on barrage also nerf that sage advantage, slightly, so demons get something like a 16% sustained dps advantage from barrage, that sages cannot equal). And the sage damage reduction buff only happens once (when barrage starts), so if the cleric's blue bubble fails a sage winds up without a damage reduction buff.

Also, if the barb dies and you need to tank for a while, you are probably better off using wingspan and moving than trying to tank everything while standing still.

So, I have to agree with you: demons are totally superior to sages, in delta (except maybe spawnpoint delta where sage chi skill might sometimes help -- but even there I am dubious).

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

If both archers flying towards each other.. all you gotta do is click fortify while sage casting it.. Its not so hard to avoid a stun.. specially on 1v1.

And all the sage has to do is click zooming thunder before stun... (or macro that starts with stun)

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Why does Vindis, a sage archer assume demon comes with Demon Spark/QS and 2% more crit rate from passives as well as STA/Stun procs.

*Fixed. Ecatomb ftw lols.

Also, I do realize sage has more dph. I am sage. I've said it quite a few times by now. To counter that a sage can have as much attack rate as a demon is redundant since a demon has access to every possible thing a sage does, as well as QS/Demon Spark.

inb4typicalIamr9andabettersagethanyouKiyoshiargument

Also, Sage BoA is quite good for tanking multiple mobs/enemies without BB up due to its 33% reduction on damage taken.

Bobzl - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Where do you get this from? I know you're demon so it's not something you've personally done. Can you honestly say a sage archer successfully stun locked you in that tiny 2meter dead zone? Has that even happened once? I'm calling BS, that never happens.

It is just not feasible due to channeling of control skills and the tiniest bit of server lag. That mythical 12 second sage stun lock of yours only works on pen and paper but not with a mouse and keyboard.

Because its damn easy to do against any caster, where again the "dead zone" is only 2 meters (in reality, you only have about 10 seconds of stun time you can actually use) and the principle remains the same, even if archers have a few more anti-stuns.

I'm not saying it would be easy, but against a predictable archer (which so many are) it wouldn't be too hard either, but it would still take skill *gasps*.

Quilue - Sanctuary

No in my experiences, you can easily stun someone outside of their cast range when they are not approaching you.

There's a difference between someone walking toward you and someone just standing there. If the opponent does not notice you and are distracted ie: in TW, it happens frequently. You'd rarely lock someone with range 2m shorter than you in a 1v1 that way.

Either path might be able to lock other casters easier, (they don't all have 30 range with lvl 11 skills), but not so easy against other archers.

Bobzl - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

No in my experiences, you can easily stun someone outside of their cast range when they are not approaching you.

There's a difference between someone walking toward you and someone just standing there. If the opponent does not notice you and are distracted ie: in TW, it happens frequently. You'd rarely lock someone with range 2m shorter than you in a 1v1 that way.

Either path might be able to lock other casters easier, (they don't all have 30 range with lvl 11 skills), but not so easy against other archers.

Yes, it is easier when they are not approaching you, but it is still not difficult when they are. You can simply stun them and take 2 steps back (holy path if you want, since they will already be at thier max range if they started channeling something), shoot again and aim low and you are golden.

But I mean, there really is one way to see if I am full of it. I can go get a windcatcher and we can meet up somewhere to 1v1, if you want just to test if it possible xD (It'll have to be in a bit though, cause I can't play at the moment).