APS solutions

Okeano - Harshlands

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Most people who suggest "solutions" for APS just invent something completely irrelevant to the problem itself... i.e. they suggest buffing casters, buffing flesh ream etc... those things aren't the problem, the problem is the APS cap and calculation. I've been saying this for at least a year, and this is the first person who made a thread about that. There is a good solution, and although the devs aren't implementing it (for whatever reason), that doesn't make the thread stupid.

Honestly, between this and the "1" gaffe, I'd suggest you quit while you're ahead, man. XD

And guess what? This thread will end up in "Suggestion" just like every other thread about APS, and never gets looked at again.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

And guess what? This thread will end up in "Suggestion" just like every other thread about APS, and never gets looked at again.

This thread offers a relatively new arm of the discussion that I, for one, would like to explore further. So while it's here, I intend to discuss it.

If all you can offer to the discussion is pessimistic assertions of things we already know, your presence in it is not required.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Ninnuam - Sanctuary wrote: »

They could fix it easily. Just take a look at the grim gamble bosses. They won't.

The only people grim gamble bosses **** over is archers using bows...A good permaspark DD can probably kill the boss in 1-2 spark cycles.

Fenrina - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yeah.

I wasn't going to bring this up in my initial theory, but... admittedly, it does stretch one's threshold of disbelief to think that this one number in the code can't be manually changed, even by the most incompetent of devs. Unless they can't find it at all, which would be hilarious (and would probably warrant someone being paid to do an exhaustive search on the number "5" XD).

Lol, yes.

Though I'd think the cap would just be a simple min(aps, 5). I wouldn't think it'd be relatively that hard to find. Oh well, I suppose stranger things have happened in the world of programming :P

And for the non-programmers, the code used for a maximum cap is the minimum function and a minimum cap is the maximum function. It makes sense in context.

Truthfully, I think the devs might be afraid to mess with it. Either they don't want to **** off the china playerbase/wanmei management or they think aps is holding back something worse. We know they're aware of it. Earthguard, Seekers in particular, wouldn't be setup the way they are if they didn't know or completely didn't care.

Greed as an explanation kinda falls flat for me. APS has been out for ~2 expansions. Supply for APS stuff should have overtaken demand sooner or later. They'd start to see less profits from APS after that.

Chickpea - Lost City

rgog wrote: »

I don't understand that statement, can't I get 4 or 5 aps relatively cheap compared to the cost of rank9?

Getting 4.0 ghetto version x2 TT99 LA and HA yeah thats very cheap b:chuckle. If you get a Wraithgate cloak and use Deicide you can reach 4.0 for less than 100 mil.

But if you want full set of interval gear and 5.0 with NV second cast weapon, decent refines and skipping shiet evasion stuff you will not get away "relativity cheap". If you want APS gear/build that also works ok in PvP, than you will have to spend about the same as a full R9 set (probably more).

Just the interval tome is 450-650 mil and second cast dags/fists/claws usually cost you even more than a R9 weapon since re-casting sucks. In the end you will still not be even half as effective as a full rank9 in PvP either.

asldfkj

the aps is jsut fine in tw, wich this game is ballanced around. Show me a sin who just runs up to enemies and sparks and autoattacks, there is none.... thus full rank9 beats 5 aps by faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

bramble works in tw, it should work in open map pvp too

Quilue - Sanctuary

People seem to be forgetting how open PK was. A ranged char could literally air kite a melee forever and **** charm for a long time, hence why BMs and Barbs got their class-only genie skills. Last night I heard a fac mate ranting about some PoS archer kiting him and ticking charm forever, until he was probably stupid enough to stand still long enough. To have Bramble on every mother****er you see on top of that, is just not necessary.

All of the above does not apply to Sins, of course.

I think Bramble Hood's reflect working could be fine, but not Bramble.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

in reality it would just sell more ironguards, and make sins hide in their own personal safe zone more than they do already. and to the person that said hiding in stealth is a skill, let me get that for you >:O

Pandaberr - Lost City

I've noticed that a lot of times there is a good suggestion, only a minority of the players on this forum accept it for what it is, the rest pass over it or flame it as being stupid. Its unfortunate, because you have thousands of players, with millions of ideas. They can't all be bad. I +1 this solution.

Pandaberr - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

The only people grim gamble bosses **** over is archers using bows...A good permaspark DD can probably kill the boss in 1-2 spark cycles.

I just wanted to say, that I don't think the original implementation of the sparks were meant to be used chained together to form a "permaspark". There seem to be a few debates on things and how they were originally intended to be used, I think APS is one of those things...

Ikarium - Dreamweaver

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Most people who suggest "solutions" for APS just invent something completely irrelevant to the problem itself... i.e. they suggest buffing casters, buffing flesh ream etc... those things aren't the problem, the problem is the APS cap and calculation. I've been saying this for at least a year, and this is the first person who made a thread about that. There is a good solution, and although the devs aren't implementing it (for whatever reason), that doesn't make the thread stupid.

Many people have theories as to what the actual 'problem' is too. Is the 5aps that bad? Or is it the chi regeneration of said 5aps that allows constant pummeling at 500% damage?
Everyone has different view points on how and why this is supposedly 'broken' and different ideas on how to 'fix' it.

Fenrina - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There is one other aspect to this. It is not a coding issue. The code itself is working fine. The issue is one of balance. The 5 aps cap exists because when the game was originally coded, it was assumed no one would ever get that high. If a bug or glitch somehow allowed massive aps* then the cap would limit the damage done.

You can't presume to know the original developers intentions. If it was assumed noone would ever reach this......why bother putting a cap at all? Noones going to reach it anyway. Why put all this gear in the game that allows 5aps? They had to have known it was, in fact, theoretically possible, since they created it all (the weap speeds, the int stacking, the calculations for it). You don't limit something that you believe is impossible.
Or maybe 5 was just a maximum that the game engine could handle at the time. Or maybe perma-sparking was intended as an uber-endgame build (given the amount of farming and work this would have taken pre-packs, it would truly be a well deserved achievement). Whatever the reason, you can't presume to know originally, and someone purposely put 5 as the cap. He must have had a reason.

Ashivas - Dreamweaver

Here's a solution, roll a sin, pay $500, get 5 aps. And winnnnnnn!!!!

WIN WIN WIN WIN WINNN!!!!!

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

if it wasnt the intent, how come endgame was specifically designed so that endgame BMs could have 5.0 sparked demon, where spark has a faster cool down than the duration of its effect.

both ORIGINAL endgame fist weapons have -.1, the only fist weapons that could have that attribute, there are 2 ORIGINAL end game set bonuses that give -.05
there has always been a farmable interval lunar cape (non-trophy mode)
demon spark has always given a 25% speed increase.

and there has always been the availability of the -int tome, although it was very very cost prohibitive prior to tokens making pages.

the game was specifically designed have endgame 5.0 melee classes. to say it wasnt is to ignore what your eyes are telling you because you dont like it.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

I'd love +aps over -int. Archers would suddenly become vastly OP. A bow with the maximum amount of -int gets to around 1.3 aps demon sparked. If you simply added +.13 aps, you could get to 2.0 or so with similar gear. A bow at 2.0 would be scary, and do massive DPS compared to, say, fists or daggers at 2.5 aps.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Pandaberr - Lost City wrote: »

I just wanted to say, that I don't think the original implementation of the sparks were meant to be used chained together to form a "permaspark". There seem to be a few debates on things and how they were originally intended to be used, I think APS is one of those things...

Obviously not, if chaining spark wasn't intended, they wouldn't have continued implementing equipment with -int.

Anniversary Packs brought -int cape and -int tome, if you think they didn't want any more perma spark, what's the logic in releasing second cast LA/HA leggings with -int and 1st cast daggers with -int during the later expansion??

You think they're just stupid and kept overlooking it or something?

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Obviously not, if chaining spark wasn't intended, they wouldn't have continued implementing equipment with -int.

Anniversary Packs brought -int cape and -int tome, if you think they didn't want any more perma spark, what's the logic in releasing second cast LA/HA leggings with -int and 1st cast daggers with -int during the later expansion??

You think they're just stupid and kept overlooking it or something?

I think they're just stupid.

Zenorx - Harshlands

Sigh

This thread again? really?

Can't you people find something better to talk about

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Let's please not have the "5APS IS LEGIT LOL" discussion again. I got so, so very tired of humoring those people last time I participated in that. >_>

Games can be designed poorly.

Even well-designed games can have oversights due to human error, which can lead to exploits.

Exploits are not always fixed due to a variety of reasons.

There will always be a delusional few who try to rationalize exploits simply because they benefit from them.

These are facts.



And this thread has a purpose beyond that tired old discussion, so I (and I'm sure the OP) would appreciate it not being derailed.

Revenge - Raging Tide

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Let's please not have the "5APS IS LEGIT LOL" discussion again. I got so, so very tired of humoring those people last time I participated in that. >_>

Games can be designed poorly.

Even well-designed games can have oversights due to human error, which can lead to exploits.

Exploits are not always fixed due to a variety of reasons.

There will always be a delusional few who try to rationalize exploits simply because they benefit from them.

These are facts.



And this thread has a purpose beyond that tired old discussion, so I (and I'm sure the OP) would appreciate it not being derailed.

so your saying 5.0 aps is an exploit? hate to tell you, its always since closed beta, been available. rather difficult and expensive before packs came into the game, but nonetheless been there. and to presume you know the coding without knowing the original dev's is in and of itself, arrogance. as was pointed out, why cap the aps if they believed it would never be reached? why add the gear to reach it, if they never intended for it? why program the spark to give the set -int bonus to reach 5.0? why make the cool down shorter than the actual duration length? cant all be explained by "human error". more than likely it was all pre designed (pre packs) to be expensive end game gear, which at the time it was. packs came about and then RT expansion came about releasing nirvana, which made it considerably cheaper. ijs.

anywho any suggestion wont be taken into advise here anyway, pwi doesnt make any changes itself, only takes the changes from the original pw, PW-CN. therefore unless they change it there, we wont get the changes here. and seeing how things are much more easily farmable there with bots making things extremely easy to obtain, such as r9 and aps, i doubt we'll see any changes here.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Revenge - Raging Tide wrote: »

so your saying 5.0 aps is an exploit? hate to tell you, its always since closed beta, been available. rather difficult and expensive before packs came into the game, but nonetheless been there. and to presume you know the coding without knowing the original dev's is in and of itself, arrogance. as was pointed out, why cap the aps if they believed it would never be reached? why add the gear to reach it, if they never intended for it? why program the spark to give the set -int bonus to reach 5.0? why make the cool down shorter than the actual duration length? cant all be explained by "human error". more than likely it was all pre designed (pre packs) to be expensive end game gear, which at the time it was. packs came about and then RT expansion came about releasing nirvana, which made it considerably cheaper. ijs.

anywho any suggestion wont be taken into advise here anyway, pwi doesnt make any changes itself, only takes the changes from the original pw, PW-CN. therefore unless they change it there, we wont get the changes here. and seeing how things are much more easily farmable there with bots making things extremely easy to obtain, such as r9 and aps, i doubt we'll see any changes here.

YOU ARE LIAR. The 5 APS was possible ONLY for archer with rank 8. No other classes could reach it. Don't lie. I doubt you played that times.

Conavar - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There will always be a delusional few who try to rationalize exploits simply because they benefit from them.

First I'm not disagreeing with your post but the following is also true

There will always be a delusional few who try to rationalize intended programming as exploits simply because they don't benefit them.

I doubt any of us know the original intent of the Dev's, so arguing if it's an exploit or is as they planned is a moot point.

Revenge - Raging Tide

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

YOU ARE LIAR. The 5 APS was possible ONLY for archer with rank 8. No other classes could reach it. Don't lie. I doubt you played that times.

explain to me how it wasnt? pan gu tome, tt99 la and ha bonus's tt100 fists and -int cape which was completly attainable. that would = 3.33 aps base which with spark is 5.0. real sorry to burst your little bubble there. as for "not playing during those times" i've been here since pwi closed beta day 1 lmao. started on lost city. got quickly tired of this game and quit and played on and off from then till today. (btw if u dont believe me about the aps then here ya go http://pwcalc.com/7f9e68e86e5b5b6f only a quick over-view but still, what would have been similiar to the end game aps of the time.[cape may have changed i forget the original -int cape back then])

but as i said, wasn't cheap but was attainable. was then as R9 is to us today in terms of attainability.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Conavar - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I doubt any of us know the original intent of the Dev's, so arguing if it's an exploit or is as they planned is a moot point.

Personally, I think there's a point beyond which any reasonable person can conclude that something is an exploit. Looking at the bosses and their capabilities vs. standard gear, and also the DPS or 5aps vs. standard gear, I think most people would conclude as such.

But as you said, this can be argued to hell and back, which is why I requested not to have that discussion. XD

Revenge - Raging Tide

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Personally, I think there's a point beyond which any reasonable person can conclude that something is an exploit. Looking at the bosses and their capabilities vs. standard gear, and also the DPS or 5aps vs. standard gear, I think most people would conclude as such.

But as you said, this can be argued to hell and back, which is why I requested not to have that discussion. XD

then what your askin for is basically, we bend over and agree with you on the simple fact you dont like this, instead of pointing out the fact that it's in truth unknown to us about what was meant and what wasnt. seems kind of one sided imo

Pandaberr - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Obviously not, if chaining spark wasn't intended, they wouldn't have continued implementing equipment with -int.

Anniversary Packs brought -int cape and -int tome, if you think they didn't want any more perma spark, what's the logic in releasing second cast LA/HA leggings with -int and 1st cast daggers with -int during the later expansion??

You think they're just stupid and kept overlooking it or something?

I said originally intended. And, no I don't think they're stupid. But you can't deny that its entirely possible that without being stupid, it could have been something they overlooked when originally creating this game. Its kind of hard to gauge the ingenuity of the human mind, and on the other end of the scale, its overwhelming stupidity.

As far as the continued release of -int gear. Anniversary Packs were originally intended to be in the boutique for 2 weeks. And then, holy cow, PWI made a lot of money off of it, and players got a lot of really great gear. Possibly leading to the seemingly infinite sale of Anniversary Packs under different names? -int gear becomes incredibly popular, possibly leading to the release of more and more? Just maybe. Don't take it as fact. But don't shut it down as being impossible either.

Nniotora - Lost City

Revenge - Raging Tide wrote: »

explain to me how it wasnt? pan gu tome, tt99 la and ha bonus's tt100 fists and -int cape which was completly attainable. that would = 3.33 aps base which with spark is 5.0. real sorry to burst your little bubble there. as for "not playing during those times" i've been here since pwi closed beta day 1 lmao. started on lost city. got quickly tired of this game and quit and played on and off from then till today. (btw if u dont believe me about the aps then here ya go http://pwcalc.com/7f9e68e86e5b5b6f only a quick over-view but still, what would have been similiar to the end game aps of the time.[cape may have changed i forget the original -int cape back then])

but as i said, wasn't cheap but was attainable. was then as R9 is to us today in terms of attainability.

sorry to tell you but pan gu came after TB lv6 tomes where released after you could get lv7 from packs aka shes right there only archer could get

Revenge - Raging Tide

Pandaberr - Lost City wrote: »

I said originally intended. And, no I don't think they're stupid. But you can't deny that its entirely possible that without being stupid, it could have been something they overlooked when originally creating this game. Its kind of hard to gauge the ingenuity of the human mind, and on the other end of the scale, its overwhelming stupidity.

As far as the continued release of -int gear. Anniversary Packs were originally intended to be in the boutique for 2 weeks. And then, holy cow, PWI made a lot of money off of it, and players got a lot of really great gear. Possibly leading to the seemingly infinite sale of Anniversary Packs under different names? -int gear becomes incredibly popular, possibly leading to the release of more and more? Just maybe. Don't take it as fact. But don't shut it down as being impossible either.

packs didnt make aps gear more popular, just cheaper to attain thats why it was so common afterwards. as i said in a previous post, attaining 5aps during the first year to year and a half of pwi, was about the same cost as r9 would be today (give or take depending how lucky you were) seeing as u had to cs the chips for the gold mats for a few pieces. granted it may not have cost $1.5k but in terms of attainability its about the same. that being said, packs stayed here because they were very cost friendly for pwi, seeing as americans love to gamble and lets face it, packs are a true gamble and many have gone utterly bankrupt (hopefully not irl but the possibility for it still stands) off of packs. an "advantage" were here in pwi have over pw-cn seeing as they legally cannot add packs to their game due to gambling being illegal. (or so i was told, which would honestly make alot of sense)

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Revenge - Raging Tide wrote: »

then what your askin for is basically, we bend over and agree with you on the simple fact you dont like this, instead of pointing out the fact that it's in truth unknown to us about what was meant and what wasnt. seems kind of one sided imo

I believe it's fairly obvious what was meant, but you're welcome to disagree, as is anyone else. If you inferred anything else from my post, then that only serves to remind me the other reason I went on hiatus from this forum. XD

My point was, the whole "is it / isn't it legit" debate has been done to death, whereas the original subtopic of this thread has not... nor has the discussion about the current devs vs. the original devs. If the 5aps supporters have something to contribute to that, more power to them. o.O But the legit/exploit debate just derails the thread.

tl;dr: I'm saying "let's agree to disagree" on the legit/exploit debate rather than let it derail an actually novel topic.

Pandaberr - Lost City

Revenge - Raging Tide wrote: »

packs didnt make aps gear more popular, just cheaper to attain thats why it was so common afterwards. as i said in a previous post, attaining 5aps during the first year to year and a half of pwi, was about the same cost as r9 would be today (give or take depending how lucky you were) seeing as u had to cs the chips for the gold mats for a few pieces. granted it may not have cost $1.5k but in terms of attainability its about the same. that being said, packs stayed here because they were very cost friendly for pwi, seeing as americans love to gamble and lets face it, packs are a true gamble and many have gone utterly bankrupt (hopefully not irl but the possibility for it still stands) off of packs. an "advantage" were here in pwi have over pw-cn seeing as they legally cannot add packs to their game due to gambling being illegal. (or so i was told, which would honestly make alot of sense)

So the increase in ease of attaining -int gear did not make it more popular? Something can't be popular if its not available. Packs made it cheaper and easier to get -int gear. So it definitely made -int gear more popular.